It's Summer so Overheating AGAIN !!!

[Nuts]

Well after enjoying driving the BelAir around for the winter, with temps in the forties, now the temps are up and the car is overheating again !!! :doh Because the temps stayed fine during the winter, I decided that a bigger, more better, aluminum radiator was the cure. NOT !!!:mad: :cuss :bang

I spent the big $$$ for an aluminum two row 1.25" radiator from Griffin Radiators. I installed it at the beginning of last month and have been experimenting with various things since. Because the radiator shroud I have is not the 409 shroud, it didn't fit the new radiator well. It was about 3/4 to 1" away from the radiator in front and covered most of the fan blade, neither is good, as I understand things ? With the mechanical fan, the car ran cooler in open air and high speeds, but still overheated quickly in traffic or at a light. However, I was able to pull the temps down if I could get out and moving again.

I removed the mechanical fan and shroud and installed a 3K cfm electrical fan with shroud and set it to come on at 130*. It takes a little longer to get up temps in traffic but still climbs to 230* or higher. With the electric fan the temps do not come down at higher speeds, even at 65-70 the temps start climbing slowly until I get off the freeway ? If I cruise at 35-40 the temps will start to come down, but then I have to stop for a light or something and they climb again. :cuss

I have tried restricting the flow, opening the flow and flowing the flow at the thermostat housing. Restricting flow makes it warm up faster, but just keeps climbing even at highway speeds. Open flow (no thermostat) heats up slower but climbs faster in traffic and still won't cool down at highway speeds.

As some of you know this is not a new problem !!! Last summer we walked down the list of things to check. Fan clutch, fan blades, fan shroud, fuel mixtures, and on and on... I'm totally at a loss !!! :cuss :bang

It is my, obviously less than knowledgeable opinion, that I have something internally wrong with the motor that is restricting the flow of coolant or causing it to overheat. I have heard that the head gaskets should have been opened up at the water opening ? I didn't do that, but don't remember that they were small, but then I didn't know to look, at the time I installed them. The block was quite rusty on the outside when I got it as a completed short block. The soft plugs were installed so I don't know what the water passages looked like.

Sorry for such a long post, but I'm looking for knowledgeable assistance and wanted to provide background. If you have taken the time to read this and have some advice please provide some assistance. :hug

As much as I love the 409 and all the interest it draws at the shows, I also am frustrated by the fact that I can't enjoy driving the car. I have a perfectly good running 327 on an engine stand and it may replace the 409 if things don't improve soon ! :dunno

[wrench]

Nuts,

Is it actually boiling over and pushing the coolant out of the system?

Or are you relying on the gauge readings. Are the gauge and sending unit accurate?

Tom

[1958 delivery]

The problem may be your engine, may be the radiator, gee you already knew that, right?
1.25 tubes run hotter than the 1" tubes. 2-1" tubes is the max colling for alum radiators. I was chewed out some months ago for this comment on here, but it's a fact.
But even with the 2-1.25 radiator your engine should not be running that hot.

Any possibility that you have Rhoads lifters?

My 400 hp 57 chevy (350cu in) will run as low as 160 F in 104 F temps sitting idling, for hours, if I run the fans full time. Large 2-1" rows cross flow radiator with dual 11" fans. When moving it will never go above 190 without fans ever turning on, this is in 90 F + temps.
My 58 348 will sit at idle all day long, 16" fan cycles on and off at whatever temp I set, I use the Spal electronic control unit for that on. This has a smaller down flow alum 2-1" tube radiator with single 16" fan. The Spal unit is neat in that it has a low and a high setting. I turn on the low at 170F and the high at 185F. The low spins the fan at 50% the high at 100% speed. When the high setting kicks on it takes about 2 minutes for the fan to pull the temp down to 160F. This is sitting at idle. Driving the car at most any speed the fan will never come on.

As much dislike that I have for Griffin radiators It sounds like you have some other problem with your engine.
But then again I just replaced a customers Be Cool, mega buck radiator on a 64 Galaxy, 427 FE that wouldn't run cool. My cross flow with dual 11" Spal fans took care of that one.
I'm starting to feel like that ignition dude so I'll shut up now.


Let me know if you have Rhoads lifters.

[Tom Kochtanek]

I was thinking the same thing, calibration. My SBC Corvette has an inaccurate water temp gauge, and I just ignore it :). It never boils over, just goes to 240* on its own once in a while... I can't recall if you've verified that or not when you were previously dealing with it last year.

Man, i sure hope you resolve this, as we'd all prefer that you stick with the 409! Your fan shroud setup might be an area to experiment with. I can lend you a dead stock fan shroud so you can see if that's the issue.

Good luck!

TomK

[dq409]

Bummer,,, We spent so much time on this last summer I thought you had it fixed,,,

Ever thought about moving to Iceland ? :D


There has to be something overlooked,,, but we covered most everything last year.:bang

Let us know if you have tested your temp unit and guage,,

[jr.W]

The problem may be your engine, may be the radiator, gee you already knew that, right?
1.25 tubes run hotter than the 1" tubes. 2-1" tubes is the max colling for alum radiators. I was chewed out some months ago for this comment on here, but it's a fact.
But even with the 2-1.25 radiator your engine should not be running that hot.

Any possibility that you have Rhoads lifters?

My 400 hp 57 chevy (350cu in) will run as low as 160 F in 104 F temps sitting idling, for hours, if I run the fans full time. Large 2-1" rows cross flow radiator with dual 11" fans. When moving it will never go above 190 without fans ever turning on, this is in 90 F + temps.
My 58 348 will sit at idle all day long, 16" fan cycles on and off at whatever temp I set, I use the Spal electronic control unit for that on. This has a smaller down flow alum 2-1" tube radiator with single 16" fan. The Spal unit is neat in that it has a low and a high setting. I turn on the low at 170F and the high at 185F. The low spins the fan at 50% the high at 100% speed. When the high setting kicks on it takes about 2 minutes for the fan to pull the temp down to 160F. This is sitting at idle. Driving the car at most any speed the fan will never come on.

As much dislike that I have for Griffin radiators It sounds like you have some other problem with your engine.
But then again I just replaced a customers Be Cool, mega buck radiator on a 64 Galaxy, 427 FE that wouldn't run cool. My cross flow with dual 11" Spal fans took care of that one.
I'm starting to feel like that ignition dude so I'll shut up now.


Let me know if you have Rhoads lifters.




Just a question. Why did you ask about the rhoads lifters. Do they create heat
some how. I ask because I just broke in a cam in a new 327 this past week
and it has rhoads in it. Thanks

[Tic's60]

Sorry to hear the Nuts. Is the AC on when you overheating? I can't remember if you had AC.
A blocked water passage, air bubble in the block it's had to tell. Do you know anyone with a thermal gun? It would be one way to check and see what areas are hotter than the other. Maybe the builder used a wrong gasket in it :dunno
I have seen your ride and I know it's super clean so I would not beat yourself up on the work you have done but I would be at that engine builders door if where mine.
If you don't find a gun I'll ask my engine builder if I can borrow his. He usualy dosent lend tools so I cannot gaurentee anything.

[61bubbletopx]

well im at a loss too big bucks too spend too cool it down i read that fan shroud is a major player in cooling has too fit perfect also hose type do not use any universal ribbed hose bad for flow also try water wetter additive too the coolant cant think of any thing else you can do off hand.....good luck:dunno

[buildit]

Have seen lots of good advice here already, so there are not too many things left. Is your crank pulley the stock diameter? Not the smaller aftermarket type that underdrives the pump? Has the waterpump been disassembled to check the fit of the impeller, and to verify that it is not loose on the shaft? Fans and shrouds are important, but really have no bearing on the problem at higher speeds. Has the coolant been tested for hydrocarbons? Also, I know it was mentioned already, but if it's not puking coolant, it's not seriously overheating, and it may be time to check that guage. Good luck.

[Nuts]

I have verified the temp with my infra-red gun, which I bought just for that purpose last summer. When the gauge reads 200 it's reading 200 at the thermostat housing also. It has never boiled over, but does push out coolant when I shut it off at temps above 220*. I never run it past 230*, I shut it down and let the electric fan cool things down.

It runs these temps with the A/C off, although running it doesn't make too much difference at highway speeds.

I have not had the water pump checked but it moves a lot of water across the top of the radiator when running. I'm using a billet pulley that is close to the size of the orriginal, maybe just a little larger.

I have scorpion rockers with a hydraulic cam and lifters. Although I'm not sure how that helps things ?

I'll be happy to address any others questions anyone has. Please feel free to guide me down the path to happiness...

[1958 delivery]

Just a question. Why did you ask about the rhoads lifters. Do they create heat
some how. I ask because I just broke in a cam in a new 327 this past week
and it has rhoads in it. Thanks


The reason I ask about the Rhoads lifters is one time some years ago a dyno/engine builder/drag racer friend had a customer with a very high dollar 67 427 Corvette that was overheating. Every single thing was brand new on this 100% frame off restored 435 horse Vet, the temp would take some time but would climb and wouldn't stop, 220-230-240 etc. He had other shops replace radiator, fan, pump, until there was nothing left to do, yet the temp wouldn't stop climbing. He paid my friend to have the engine/cooling system etc totaly torn down and precisely measured during the teardown. The engine was precisely measured during teardown and as precisely re=assembled. Nothing was wrong in this engine. I'm not talking just taking it apart, every single thing was mic'd and inspected coming and going. My friend was stumped since he could not point at anything. The only thing that was a deviation from original was the orignal builder used Rhoads lifters to supposedly help the factory 435 horse solid lifter cam. He took a guess and replaced the lifters with factory type solids and the overheating was gone. Don't ask me why, I guess the cam timing was altered in some way to cause this because the car idled at normal temp as soon as this was changed.
I've never heard of anyone else with this situation but I saw it with my own eyes.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Nuts,try to overdrive your water pump,with a 6 inch pump pulleyfrom Show Cars part # 6477.It worked for me

[1958 delivery]

Nuts,try to overdrive your water pump,with a 6 inch pump pulleyfrom Show Cars part # 6477.It worked for me

Isn't the factory size 6"?
Larger crank pully and/or smaller pump pully to overdrive the pump.
But even with the factory sized pump pully he should be turning enough R's and have enough airflow through the rad to keep the temp down.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Isn't the factory size 6"?
Larger crank pully and/or smaller pump pully to overdrive the pump.
But even with the factory sized pump pully he should be turning enough R's and have enough airflow through the rad to keep the temp down.

Factory size water pump pulley was 7 inch,I use a early 80's F!!d pulley on my 409.

[1958 delivery]

Factory size water pump pulley was 7 inch,I use a early 80's F!!d pulley on my 409.



7" That's big.


I use the aluminum pulleys so they are about 6"

[models916]

Mine would idle hot with the electric fan. i have since switch to a 7 blade clutch fan and have no low speed temp problems.

[models916]

If temp returns to normal at speed on the road but is hot at idle or low speed it would seem to be an air flow problem. Bigger, more blade fan, tighter to the radiator shroud etc........

[Bam59]

hi,,,since you may have tried all the outside stuff, maybe you need to pop a freeze plug and have a look inside, i would also have a peek inside the water pump and check the impeller. i do not know which impeller you have but that stamper steel "imo" is junk. if you have the iron impeller check the veins wear and clearance to the body. check body for grooves and cavities.
mike

[1958 delivery]

What over bore is your block?

[mac1]

I use a 7 blade fixed flex fan from summit http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=flx-1818 and this electric fan http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page16.html (scroll down to the bottom for the 18" one) together and I don't have any problems with overheating. Let me know if you need a picture of them in the car.
BTW, If I remember correctly, you had allot of problems with that 327 overheating a couple of years ago..

[chevymusclecars]

hi,,,since you may have tried all the outside stuff, maybe you need to pop a freeze plug and have a look inside, i would also have a peek inside the water pump and check the impeller. i do not know which impeller you have but that stamper steel "imo" is junk. if you have the iron impeller check the veins wear and clearance to the body. check body for grooves and cavities.
mike


I'm not sure where the idea comes from that the stamped steel impellers are junk? I have seen a lot of the test data on water pumps and when GM was testing the stamped impeller in comparison with the cast impeller there was always more flow from the stamped impeller. All of the newer cars come from the factory with a stamped impeller and they don't seem to have a problem. It doesn't matter what impeller you use if it is not set with the correct clearance to the cover plate the flow will be reduced.

Bill

[Nuts]

What over bore is your block?

The block is .30 over.

The problem with the 327 overheating turned out to be a bad set of heads, replaced them and no more problem. But it does seem that this problem follows me around alright !!! :dunno

Since I've tried all the outside things, it maybe time to pull the motor and look deeper. Hate to do that with the show season just starting up around here and I don't really have the shop and tools to make it a one day job like they do on TV !!!
Besides I broke the friend who helps me with that kind of stuff last summer butting the 409 in the car. He should be out of the hospital next week though... :rofl

[rstreet]

You all keep up this overheating discussions and Denis will probably come back on and then you will have something to read and study about overheating solutions. I think that was the longest thread I remember:eek: :rofl :rofl
Robert

Say..... anyone heard from him down in FLA.?

[JimKwiatkowski]

The block is .30 over.

The problem with the 327 overheating turned out to be a bad set of heads, replaced them and no more problem. But it does seem that this problem follows me around alright !!! :dunno

Since I've tried all the outside things, it maybe time to pull the motor and look deeper. Hate to do that with the show season just starting up around here and I don't really have the shop and tools to make it a one day job like they do on TV !!!
Besides I broke the friend who helps me with that kind of stuff last summer butting the 409 in the car. He should be out of the hospital next week though... :rofl

Nuts,pulling your motor at this time of the season,is a waste of time and Money IMO.I've never heard of a 409 having internal cooling problems with the Block,Heads or Head Gaskets.

Try this first,(1) use a 7 blade clutch fan that Models suggested,make sure blade fits in the shroud 1/2 in and 1/2 out of the shroud.(2) try a 6 inch water pump pulley that I suggested,I've done allot of testing with the 6" pulley compared to the 7"pulley in Denis's thread,with the 6"pulley cooling 15 deg cooler.(3) check the clearance on your water pump impeller,I've heard the stamped impeller does a better job.(4) Read Denis's thread,it's long but me and Denist did allot of testing and work in this thread to help our members with there cooling problems.Here's the link

http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7473&highlight=water+pump+pulley

[J & J]

Just one more suggestion from the peanut gallery. have you taken the car to a radiator shop and have them do a back flush on the engine? IF for some reason there is some contaminates/blockage inside the block this will usually push them out. qucik easy and not a lot of money spend for a peace of mind.

[fourspeed409]

This is just off the top of my head. Do different fans have different blade pitch? If you had a fan with more pitch wouldn't it pull more air? Just a thought. What about one of those EGT gauges or getting a shop to run it on a 4 gas analyzer. Just grasping at straws here.

Shane

[fatride]

I was just wondering, after reading all the posts, if the engine is running hotter at speed maybe the problem is not the rad or fan. It is true, When you install a shroud and electric fan , at speed , the shroud and fan will create a hindrance to air flow and the engine may run at a higher temp than without the shroud fan combo. But In your case without seeing your setup first hand, I think at speed you should see some reduction in coolant temp. Are you sure you are not running lean or could there be a problem with the timing? With things just the way they are I would like you to hook up a dial back timing light and lean over the fender with the engine runing and check the timing at 2500 rpm, timing should not be over 50 dgs or under 34 dgs. This is assuming you have a vacuum advance unit with your dist. Then pull the plugs and observe the plug color. Plugs should be a medium dark color. I don't mean to be a smart *** but are you sure the fan is pulling through the rad and not pushing? I am sorry if I have missed oter posts that cover your jetting and timing specs or have read them and have forgotten.

[Nuts]

Fatride,

I was having the same thoughts about timing today !!! :clap I noticed that with the temps back up again, the pre-ignition knock is also back. I thought I had fixed it last fall, but the temps were cooler then. Under a load or during acceleration I'm getting the binging again.

I'll check the timing and let you know... I believe that it is within your parameters, but it will only take a minute to check. I have the vacuum plugged right now, I know that. :dunno

I also took the electric fan and shroud off today and installed a six blade fixed fan about 1" from the radiator. I drove it around and at highway speeds could pull the temps back down to 190*. It still got hot in traffic but I could pull the temps down if I could get moving and up to 35-45 mph. Seems to still heat up driving at speeds under 35, even if there was no traffic ? It was approx. 90* during the hour drive. Only got over 210* once and that was with the A/C on, just had to try it... !!! :dunno

Appreciate everyone helping with this again this summer... Maybe we'll find a cure this time and the 409 can stay in !!! Well I've got hope anyway. :)

[fatride]

Having the vacuum plugged sends up red flages for me. For a cruise engine you should be running with a vacuum advance unit. If you cannot run with the vacuum advance unit hooked up you have a problem with the dist advance curve right now. Do not give in to this problem, I have been chasing the heat problem through a 348 and 409 in the same car now for years. I have the problem under control at the moment with the addition of a full radiator shroud and a 2950 cfm BeCool puller fan added this spring. I already had the cross flow double 1" tube aluminum radiator! I am waiting to hear from the guys that have purchased the new Edelbrock water pumps.

[bubbletop1961]

I agree with fatride on the timing. Not enough timing will make it run hot.

[fatride]

I reread some of the posts on your overheating problem from last year. Did you rejet the carbs yet? Have you found out what the quench distance is (pistons in the hole)?

[Nuts]

Thanks for all the good ideas and helpful hints. Work got into play time today and I won't be able to check the timing and otherthings. I'll get to it as soon as possible, big thanks to all... :clap

[pg409]

I think I posted something similar last year, but yesterday did a 200 mile trip to a cruise in 92 degree weather. Our car is a 340 hp/glide with .060 bore. 160 stat.
Recored rad with stock tanks and 3 core high density rad. ( not aluminum)
Stock shroud and fan clutch. We ran about 185 degrees on the flats and up to 190on the hills. Timing specs to manual. 600 cfm Edelbrock carb.

[Nuts]

pg409,

All that, leads me to believe I've got something else going on leading to the overheating. I've made an appointment with a local shop with a chassis Dyno to address the ignition and binging issues and get the fuel mixture correct at all RMPs.

I'll let everyone know what we find out next week. Thanks to all for your insight, thoughts and concerns. I'm holding out hope !!!! :hug :clap

[Tic's60]

since it rainy and cool today you could go for a cruise:D Are you going to the guy in Eagle for the dyno run?

[tripowerguy]

I had the same problem with a 64 SS that I put a 454 in. I put a 4 row 409 radiator in it with the biggest electric fan I could get. It would not stay cool in traffic or on 90 degree days out on the road. I took the electric fan off and put a clutch mechanical fan on it. This put the fan all the way into the shroud. It still overheated. I then cut the shroud down to where the fan was half in the shroud and sealed off the shroud to the radiator so all air had to go through the shroud. Solved my overheating. By the way that was a brand new 4 row radiator. With my 58 I have a custom made 5 row copper radiator with a mechanical fan half way into the shroud. It never overheats even idleing in 100 degrees. Overheating is one of the most frustrating of problems and I really feel for you. You have checked timing I'm sure but if it is retarded or to advanced it will overheat.:dunno Roy

[51T409]

Nuts surely with all the good comments and ideas you got from this site and chevy talk ,you'll get the problem fixed soon without taking the 409 out and putting in the 327.

[Ronnie Russell]

For what it's worth. 2 months ago I made a 30 mile trip in 70 degree weather. 210 dg. water temp. Shut motor off, opened hood, got quite a bit of boilover overflow for a few minutes. Was using 7 1/4 inch aftermarkert water pump pulley. Jim Kwi sent me a 6 inch wrecking yard pulley. Today is first time out. 90 dg. weather. Same 30 mile trip. 200 dg water temp. Shut motor off, raised the hood to check overflow. No boilover overflow today. Am using GM 4 core radiator, fan clutch, fan properly spaced, etc. Also using cheap Summit mechanical gauge. I estimate true temp was probably 190 dg. I realize this test was very unscientific, but I can now go somewhere in hot weather. I have to give credit to the 6 inch pulley because nothing else has been changed. BTW. all of this 30 mile trip was highway miles. Cannot attest to what stop and go driving would have been. There is no stop and go driving here. The old car got her new license plates and inspection sticker today during the 30 mile trip. I am now legal so I hope to put some real miles on her now without looking over my shoulder for the Sheriff. Thanks again to Jim Kwi for the pulley. :) :)

[W Head]

Ronnie, You may know this already, but If your car is registered as a antique, you do not have to have a state inspection sticker in Texas.

W Head

59 El Camino 348-3,2s
59 Impala 409-2,4s

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks Wayne, Yes , I had heard that but I had to transfer title, so I thought it would be easier ( red-tape ) to do it the normal way. Next year will go with your suggestion. :)

[Bam59]

hi,,,chevymusclecars..yes i have see reports saying the same thing,but i have seen the opposite. the factory water pump has a much thicker steel blades with a little different design compared to the off shore rebuild kits.
i heard the new e'brook water pump have the old iron designed impeller:dunno but the main reason i think is it is a lot cheaper to make a stamped steel ones.
i for many ressons and 28 years of pump repairing will stay with the old design
as long as i can mike

this is america we can be differant:cheers

[mac1]

I may try sealing off the gap between the rad and shroud to get my temps down a little more. What are you guys using for this?? I'm thinking some of that black foam tape from Home Depot, The one with the double stick tape on the one side. I'll put it on the inside of the shroud so it doesn't look to hokey. What do ya think??

[JimKwiatkowski]

For what it's worth. 2 months ago I made a 30 mile trip in 70 degree weather. 210 dg. water temp. Shut motor off, opened hood, got quite a bit of boilover overflow for a few minutes. Was using 7 1/4 inch aftermarkert water pump pulley. Jim Kwi sent me a 6 inch wrecking yard pulley. Today is first time out. 90 dg. weather. Same 30 mile trip. 200 dg water temp. Shut motor off, raised the hood to check overflow. No boilover overflow today. Am using GM 4 core radiator, fan clutch, fan properly spaced, etc. Also using cheap Summit mechanical gauge. I estimate true temp was probably 190 dg. I realize this test was very unscientific, but I can now go somewhere in hot weather. I have to give credit to the 6 inch pulley because nothing else has been changed. BTW. all of this 30 mile trip was highway miles. Cannot attest to what stop and go driving would have been. There is no stop and go driving here. The old car got her new license plates and inspection sticker today during the 30 mile trip. I am now legal so I hope to put some real miles on her now without looking over my shoulder for the Sheriff. Thanks again to Jim Kwi for the pulley. :) :)

Ronnie,Thanks for the report I'm glad someone benefited some cooling results from the 6 inch pulley besides me.Show Cars must also know that a 6 inch pulley helps cooling,because they sell a 6 inch pulley for $79 :dunno

[Nuts]

since it rainy and cool today you could go for a cruise:D Are you going to the guy in Eagle for the dyno run?

Tic,

Thanks a lot for the cool day tip !!! I had to work... I'm using a guy in Meridian, didn't know about Eagle. With two options I most likely picked the wrong one, that's how it usually works.
:rofl :dunno

Are you going to the Namap show or the Eagle show this weekend ???

[chevymusclecars]

hi,,,chevymusclecars..yes i have see reports saying the same thing,but i have seen the opposite. the factory water pump has a much thicker steel blades with a little different design compared to the off shore rebuild kits.
i heard the new e'brook water pump have the old iron designed impeller:dunno but the main reason i think is it is a lot cheaper to make a stamped steel ones.
i for many ressons and 28 years of pump repairing will stay with the old design
as long as i can mike

this is america we can be differant:cheers

I'm not saying that I wouldn't stay with the cast impeller if it is working and can't really comment on the aftermarket impellers since we don't test those. I do know that when we compared the GM cast and stamped impellers that the stamped had more flow. Remember though if the coolant passes through the radiator too quickly you really get very little cooling.

Bill

[Tic's60]

Tic,

Thanks a lot for the cool day tip !!! I had to work... I'm using a guy in Meridian, didn't know about Eagle. With two options I most likely picked the wrong one, that's how it usually works.
:rofl :dunno

Are you going to the Namap show or the Eagle show this weekend ???

The F@#rd show was last Sat, what happening this coming weekend? Been swamped at work then spending 4-5 more hours a nite in the shop so I have not even had time to find the schedule.
Who has one in Merdian? My builder told me there was one in Eagle that has a killer setup that's all I know. I am taking mine there in a few weeks.
Let me know when and where and maybe I can pop in while they do yours.

[fatride]

I may try sealing off the gap between the rad and shroud to get my temps down a little more. What are you guys using for this?? I'm thinking some of that black foam tape from Home Depot, The one with the double stick tape on the one side. I'll put it on the inside of the shroud so it doesn't look to hokey. What do ya think??

That's what I used.

[models916]

Edelbrock designed their own impeller. If you look a the catalog, I shows a picture of it. Very similar to the factory GM design of old.

[models916]

Cast Iron Impeller

[JimKwiatkowski]

Models Thanks for the post,I'm glad I have the new pump ordered,that impeller should help my cooling another 5 deg :dunno

[Nuts]

The F@#rd show was last Sat, what happening this coming weekend? Been swamped at work then spending 4-5 more hours a nite in the shop so I have not even had time to find the schedule.
Who has one in Merdian? My builder told me there was one in Eagle that has a killer setup that's all I know. I am taking mine there in a few weeks.
Let me know when and where and maybe I can pop in while they do yours.

Tic

The Meridian Automotive has a dyno. Their in the middle of town at the RR tracks. I missed the Mustage show because I was working on the car and didn't get it working to go.

The Mopar show is this weekend on the Nampa Park and the Eagle Fun days is running downtown Eagle somewhere. They require you to stay until after 5PM so I won't have the car there. Might do the Nampa show if the car is running right.

How are you coming on your ? Looking forward to seeing her out and about soon. :clap

[Tic's60]

Tic

The Meridian Automotive has a dyno. Their in the middle of town at the RR tracks. I missed the Mustage show because I was working on the car and didn't get it working to go.

The Mopar show is this weekend on the Nampa Park and the Eagle Fun days is running downtown Eagle somewhere. They require you to stay until after 5PM so I won't have the car there. Might do the Nampa show if the car is running right.

How are you coming on your ? Looking forward to seeing her out and about soon. :clap

Crap! I thought it was in July for the Nampa show :mad: It was the one I was hoping to make it to with the car even if it's in primer.
The 15th I should be out for some run time on it finaly. I am using a weeks vacation to finish it up to the primer point so I can have some fun with it.
Need some fun to bring back the insperation:brow
I'll PM you my number so maybe we can hook up..

[fatride]

This thing rocks! After years of chasing overheating problems at idle, with both a 348 335 HP and a 409 500 HP I think I have it whipped. I had added a two row 1" tube aluminum cross flow rad last year with mixed results. It did improve the overheating problem at idle but it would still climb to 230+ in 1/2 an hour in heat over 78/80 dgs. I have since added an aluminum shroud that covers the whole rad and a 2950 cfm, BeCool fan. Today the ambient temp was 88/90 dgs. Engine is race tuned and running through the headers. I had the car just outside the garage, idling for over an hour. Temp never got over 210 and it took a lot of idling and revving the engine to get it to that temp. I had it in gear, out of gear 700 rpm , 900 rpm you name it. Never got over 210 dgs. It even pulled the temp down from 210 dgs to 205 dgs a couple of times. Don't ever give up on your engine problems no matter what. :beerbang

[Nuts]

FatRide,

Thanks for the encouragement !!!! :clap There maybe a light at the end of the hot trail for me also. I have an appointment with the dyno guy tomorrow and hope that this will get rid of the pinging and maybe help with the temps.

I tried the aluminum shroud covering 90% of the radiator and got mixed results, but a completed shroud may help, I'll have to look into that.

[Ronnie Russell]

Nuts, Good luck with the dyno guy. I am optimistic for you. I have never heard a 409 ping , so I believe the dyno guy might find a timing problem. You are bound to get some great input and I hope he finds a simple way to the solution. :)

[Nuts]

Ronnie,

Thanks - The car is there now and I'm going to check on it throughout the morning. I'll let everyone know what we find.

__________________________________________________ _
Mike,

I have your cell number and I'll give you a call. I plan to attend the Nampa show, if the car is running again. :brow

[dq409]

Ray , Where do you have your fan mounted?
Pushing or pulling?

Pictures? ,,dq

[fatride]

Ray , Where do you have your fan mounted?
Pushing or pulling?

Pictures? ,,dq

Pulling Jim. I'll get pictures tomorrow. ;)

[fatride]

Here is the custom shroud and 2950 cfm BeCool fan combo that is keeping the 500 HP 409 cool.

[dq409]

Nice job Ray !!!!:clap

Clean looking and i bet it pulls some air !!,,dq

[Nuts]

Ray,

That's a nice looking fan setup. The electric fan I had was setup very similar. It helped while the car was setting or at slow speeds, but at highway speeds it actually ran hotter. They told me at the shop last week that it was damming up the air behind the shroud. They said it needed some kind of vent system to let the air out at higher speeds. :dunno

[Ronnie Russell]

Nuts, Any new information from the dyno man?? Was he able to help?

[Tic's60]

Hi Bill one thing I forgot to ask at the show are you running a high flow thermostat or the stock thing? I found on my rats that the high flow works much better than the stock ones.

thanks

Mike

[fatride]

Ray,

That's a nice looking fan setup. The electric fan I had was setup very similar. It helped while the car was setting or at slow speeds, but at highway speeds it actually ran hotter. They told me at the shop last week that it was damming up the air behind the shroud. They said it needed some kind of vent system to let the air out at higher speeds. :dunno

Yes, this is true. I will be looking into the vent thing in the future. At this time I have yet to see what it will do on an extremely hot day at speed.

[Bam59]

hi,,,Nuts that is one of the same reasons the man at the speed shop said to go with 2 fan setup. but i only have a stock 348 so not all that hp you folks have. this fan is over the whole radiator face. i know there is a set of two fans that pull more then mine, used on R.V.s and big pick-ups.
just like i was told not to run a belt fan behind a elect. fan setup, but folks here do it with great luck. so you do what works. you will win this HOT war.

[mac1]

Hi nuts, how did the dyno test work out on Saturday???

[Nuts]

Well I forgot to update everyone on the dyno test results. I was so bummed after I just didn't want to talk about it. Basically I paid $$$$ to finds out nothing about the overheating. :mad:

Well maybe that's not true. I did find out that there is nothing they found to direct me to the overheating. The car will do over 110 mph on the dyno and it's running rich when the second carb starts coming in. They believe the overheating is due to no air flow through the radiator at idle. I had no fan shroud mounted at the time we did the test, and it wasn't pulling any air at idle.

I have mounted the original fan shroud back on and it did a little better on the trip to and from the show this weekend. It still has a cap between the shroud and the radiator and covers more than half the fan. I plan to work on both those issues this week to see if that will help some. I will install the recommended metering rods in the carb to cut down the flow on the carbs, which will get me better fuel milage, when I solve the overheating.

We didn't do a HP test because I wasn't looking for HP, just a good running, cool, driveable vehicle, but it does sound good spinning on the rack !!!

Thanks all for your interest and thoughts... :hug

[dq409]

hi,,,Nuts that is one of the same reasons the man at the speed shop said to go with 2 fan setup. but i only have a stock 348 so not all that hp you folks have. this fan is over the whole radiator face. i know there is a set of two fans that pull more then mine, used on R.V.s and big pick-ups.
just like i was told not to run a belt fan behind a elect. fan setup, but folks here do it with great luck. so you do what works. you will win this HOT war.

I really wonder if that set-up Ray has would restict air while going down the road.
The size of the opening for his large fan,IMO, should be big enough to allow plenty of air to flow.
But,,, time will tell if Ray takes it out on the road. i for one want to know.

BAM, I think the main reason to run a set-up like yours with dual fans is to pervent any hot spots in the radiator that you get from running a single elec fan with out a schroud.
Those dual fans have a built in schroud.

If you run an elec auxiliary push fan like I have on the out side of the radiator you will get uneven cooling on the radiator if it is the only fan,.
i have run both a elec fan with the mechanical fan combo and just the elec fan and have had some good luck both ways.

I want to buils something like Rays set-up in the future,,, dq

[SS409]

I have the exact same problem with my 409. Did just about everything you have done and even had the heads off a month ago. Yes the passage holes in the head gasket are smaller than the water jacket holes in the heads and block. I inquired to some old timers and they all said it didn'y make a difference.:bang

So when you do figure this one out, I'll be listening.:stooges

[Ronnie Russell]

7 blade fan with clutch, 6 inch water pump pulley , quality radiator, proper fan spacing to shroud. That combination works. It works in Texas, it has to work elsewhere.

[Nuts]

7 blade fan with clutch, 6 inch water pump pulley , quality radiator, proper fan spacing to shroud. That combination works. It works in Texas, it has to work elsewhere.

Ronnie,

I agree, that combination SHOULD Work. What thermostat are you running ? If it doesn't work then what else might be wrong ?:dunno That's the question I believe I'm stuck with, but I've got a couple of things to get correct before I pull the engine and look inside !!! :doh

[Ronnie Russell]

Nuts, I do not use a thermostat. That is my preferance and only mine. Everyone disagrees but thats okay, it's my car and I have run the "apples to apples" test , with and without, so I know what is best for my car. I would suggest to you, as others have already suggested, a high flow 160 dg thermostat. Denis and Jim Kwi have already proven that high air flow is as important as high water flow, hence the 7 blade fan and smaller pulley addresses both issues. I do not believe you will have to pull the engine. Just start at the beginning and use the correct parts, it will cool. :)

[mac1]

I'll add my 2 cents here. What Ronnie said is right on. The 160 high flow stat is a good one but you will get a little more air flow with a non clutch 7 blade fan here. Yes you will loose a couple of horses and your hood insulation will keep blowing off your hood due to the increased air flow, (at least mine does). Also use a little less antifreeze, maybe 20% in the summer, as water cools the best. I also have factory a/c and my temps go way up in stop and go traffic. Theres not much you can do about that short of just not using it. An electric fan inside the shroud will also help. (It drops my temps 10 degrees), just make sure they are turning the same direction and offset the center hub an inch or two. I've posted this picture before. Mac

[wrench]

I've got a couple of things to get correct before I pull the engine and look inside !!! :doh

Have you done the water pump impeller blade clearance/condition check? I remember you saying you had good flow, but that check is crucial to good flow at all engine speeds. I may have missed your response on that check. Disregard my rambling if so.

[W Head]

I installed a 5 1/2 in. pully on my El Camino last week and went to a car show Sat. 84 mile round trip, temp 95 deg. Engine temp ran at just over 180 deg. on hwy and 195 in town. Had been running almost 200 on hwy and 210-215 in town. I have 160 deg thermostat and 7 blade fan with clutch and stock radiator. Smaller pully made a lot of difference.

W Head

59 El Camino 348-3,2s
59 Impala 409-2,4s

[models916]

Good but expensive to a point.

http://www.evanscooling.com/catalog/C_npg1.htm

[Nuts]

Okay I understand how to get all the things needed for what should be a cool running 409. The one thing I haven't found in little old Boise, ID is a seven blade fan. Can anyone point me to one ? :dunno

[JimKwiatkowski]

Okay I understand how to get all the things needed for what should be a cool running 409. The one thing I haven't found in little old Boise, ID is a seven blade fan. Can anyone point me to one ? :dunno

Nuts,I got my fan blade from Summit,I used a 17 inch without a clutch.They sell the Fan blades in 15,17,18 and 19 inch,depending on your shroud opening.I've had good results without a clutch,but maybe someone else can suggest one with a clutch.Have you located a 6 inch water pump pulley ?Here's the link to Summit

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLX%2D1617P&N=700+115&autoview=sku

[mac1]

Here you go Nuts. If you order it from Summit it should be at your doorstep
in 24 hours. :D Edit: I'm using the 18" fan shown below. This should work fine if you have the stock BB schroud.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLX%2D1818&N=700+400226+304504+115&autoview=sku




http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/flx-1818.jpg

Electric fan link #19115
http://perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page16.html

http://perma-cool.com/Catalog/CatImages/PG17-L2.gif

[JimKwiatkowski]

I installed a 5 1/2 in. pully on my El Camino last week and went to a car show Sat. 84 mile round trip, temp 95 deg. Engine temp ran at just over 180 deg. on hwy and 195 in town. Had been running almost 200 on hwy and 210-215 in town. I have 160 deg thermostat and 7 blade fan with clutch and stock radiator. Smaller pully made a lot of difference.

W Head

59 El Camino 348-3,2s
59 Impala 409-2,4s

W Head,were can I get a 5 1/2 in pulley ?I'd like to try one.

[Nuts]

Here you go Nuts. If you order it from Summit it should be at your doorstep
in 24 hours. :D Edit: I'm using the 18" fan shown below. This should work fine if you have the stock BB schroud.


Is the flex fan the only one available with 7 blades ??? I would prefer a steel blade if possible.

I have a stock SB shroud that I cut down to fit over the 4 row copper/brass radiator I was using before this aluminum radiator. I believe it will also take an 18" fan, but I not sure. I could remove the spacer blocks on the aluminum radiator and then this shroud would fit fine, I believe. I know one guy here in town who has an original 409 62 Impala, I going to check with him to see if he'd loan me his shroud to check it out. He is currently restoring the car, he is the original owner !!!:clap

[Tic's60]

Okay I understand how to get all the things needed for what should be a cool running 409. The one thing I haven't found in little old Boise, ID is a seven blade fan. Can anyone point me to one ? :dunno

Cause it's in Nampa with the rest of my Impala police car stuff:D Come get it and it's yours. I will be flying to St louis MO on sunday for a week of hell meetings so if I am not hear my Son will have it by the door for you. It is good one so ll you need is to bolt it on and go!!

Later

M:-)

[mac1]

Nut's, I'm pretty sure your SB shroud will work. I used six blade 18" flex fan on my small block with the SB shroud with no issues. The flex fan above is a heavy duty one, unlike the ones sold over the counter at pep boys. I wouldn't worry about the blades detaching, JMO though. You decide. Just remember to have the fan half in/half out. The electric fan works great with the A/C on in the stop and go traffic. It's a tight fit but you will be happy with the results. Just run it through a 30 amp relay using a toggle switch under the dash or run the relay through your a/c clutch power wire.

[models916]

This is a non clutch fan


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-1960-70s-OEM-Stainless-Steel-7-Blade-Radiator-Fan_W0QQitemZ150132407009QQihZ005QQcategoryZ33600Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[models916]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-Chevy-Olds-Pontiac-7-Blade-Clutch-Fan_W0QQitemZ230142597890QQihZ013QQcategoryZ34201Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[W Head]

The one I have came off of a 1980 something BB Chevy 1 ton dully. I had to re-drill the holes for the older 348/409 water pump, but it works great.

W Head

59 El Camino 348-3,2s
59 Impala 409-2,4s




W Head,were can I get a 5 1/2 in pulley ?I'd like to try one.

[models916]

I think stock is 6.5" this one is 5.6875"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1963-chevrolet-2-groove-inner-waterpump-pulley-327_W0QQitemZ180130291899QQihZ008QQcategoryZ140681 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Nuts]

Cause it's in Nampa with the rest of my Impala police car stuff:D Come get it and it's yours. I will be flying to St louis MO on sunday for a week of hell meetings so if I am not hear my Son will have it by the door for you. It is good one so ll you need is to bolt it on and go!!

Later

M:-)


Mike - Give me a call or PM, we'll link up. Bill :)

[59348SC]

I'm a newbie and don't know much about anything so this discussion fascinated me. I have a 1960 348 in a 1959 Impala SC that I put together myself and I have the same overheating problem. It used to be OK on the highway but lately will overheat anywhere. I have an aftermarket gauge watching it and it is accurate, If I don't pull over and shut down it will send antifreeze everywhere. I've changed head gaskets because I was told I'd probably blew one on an engine with only 7-800 miles on it. The gaskets do restrict down the water holes but I assumed this was correct so left it alone. I've been wondering if the machine work I had done to the heads could be at fault. I had hardened valve guides installed because I intended to drive it a lot on unleaded gas and it seemed a good idea at the time, untill I read an article advising against that idea. The article said there was a danger of cutting into the water jacket. I don't get water in the oil or oil in the water. The block was only bored .30 over so that shouldn't be a problem. I had a stock fan and Vintage Air guarenteed me it would boil over so I installed a 16" electric, It disintegrated in Ohio two weeks ago. I went to Autozone and got a universal aftermaket fan, 6 blades instead of 4 and a lot more pitch. I had to trailer it home to Maryland anyway. Sorry to jump in like this, but I feel very involved already.

[Ronnie Russell]

59348sc, First check casting numbers to make sure you don't have early 58 block or heads. If it is , in fact, a 1960 engine, remove thermostat on your next test run. Even a new thermostat can be bad and over restrictive. Once you have solved the overheating problem, you can reinstall thermostat. To check leaky valve seats, read spark plugs. Water will show up by revealing rusty plug or plugs in the bad cyls. Hardened seats can be used if the machine shop is high quality and know w-head engines. I would use a can of K&W block seal to see if this would help. Others use different brands and have success also. Might save you from pulling heads again. Worth the $8 to try. I believe a good 7 blade fan will far out perform the electric fan you are using. If you "search" cooling system, radiator, over-heating, etc. ,, you will find many threads that will offer much information. I assume you have a.c. . Forget about using the a.c. until you have solved the problem. Good luck..............

[Nuts]

Yesterday was a great day for me, hope that all of you had a great Father's Day also. :clap

First an update on the overheating problems which is also one of the prizes !!! I changed out the aftermarket water pump pulley for the stock SB pulley from the 327. That required me to change the belts because it is 5 7/8 and the one I had been using was 6 5/8 diameter. Driving down to the show yesterday morning on the freeway the temp never got off the peg but it was 50* outside. Getting parked at the event required approx 15-20 min of idle time and the temp never went over 190*. :clap so that is some movement in the right direction. It was still cool in the afternoon (mid seventies), when I drove home from the event. I drove through downtown with stop lights and lite traffic, on to the freeway for eight miles, then back into lite traffic and lights for a total of 15 miles and the temp never got above 150*.

Yes, I know 150* is too cool but that is the first trip I've driven the 409 on that the temp didn't get to 190, even in the dead of winter. The smaller pulley helped a bunch, thanks to all who suggested that !!!!! :clap :clap :) Now the thing I have to do is solve the heat at idle, which I believe will still be an issue on hot days in slow traffic. What I have to do is figure out how to get more air flow in those situations. I'm going to have the A/C system drained and remove the condenser to see if that will help with airflow. If it does then I'll have to tackle that problem, because I'll need the A/C when my lovely wife is in the car with me.

Tic60 donated a 7 blade fan to the project (Thanks Mike, I owe you a one !!!) :cheers but it is a little too big for the stock shroud. I'm going to work the shroud issue by looking for one which will allow use of this large 7 blade fan and pull more air through the radiator. I've got some ideas in my head of what I want, just have to find something that will work.

Now the second prize !!! There were 160 beutiful cars at the show for Father's day with numerious "tricked out" TriFives, Hot Rods, Roadsters and cars of every make and model lots of $$$$ on display. Out of all the beutiful Chevolets, many much better than mine (IMO), the BelAir was voted Best Chevolet ! :dunno I have to tell you, I didn't vote for me. Eventhough I didn't build the car for the purpose of getting prizes, it is always nice to be recognized by your peers for all the hard work and efforts you have put in.

[tripower]

Nuts, Great news on the over heating and, congratulations on the best Chevy award...:clap I have been following this thread very close as I am preparing for a swap in my car and did manage to find a 7 blade fan out of a 70 GTO. Looks just like the one models posted from Ebay but aluminum fins steel hub. A friend had it and gave it to me. It has a non thermal clutch but, I think I am going to try the clutch that is on my original 5 blade. My engine would clime in temp after running several hundred miles in 70 degree weather with the stock 348. This thread has been a big help. I hope you can get the slow traffic idle issues worked out.

[Ronnie Russell]

Nuts, Great news!!!! Glad you are moving in the right direction. I'm glad you didnt get frustrated and put the small block in the car. Congratulations on the trophy...........

[Nuts]

Ronnie and Dan,

Thanks, it is really nice to finally make some progress in the right direction... I've been spending $$$$ on this overheating for over a year and to find something right in my shop that helps it nice to say the least...

There must be a shroud in my future that will help the low speed stuff... I just made arrangements to have the A/C system purged and we'll see how much that helps, wish me luck...

Thanks everyone for you continued help !!!! :clap :hug :)

[yellow wagon]

don't overlook the idle mixture either....if the idle is too lean, the temps will rise also. Keep it just a little on the rich side and you will be fine. Do youhave Redline Water Wetter in the radiator by chance? I have a lot steadier temps at idle on hot days from that stuff. Great product if you ask me.

J

[mac1]

Great news Nuts. Don't forget to plug off your a/c hoses, condenser and dryer. You want to keep the moisture out of there if your going to charge it back up later on. I have some assorted tapered silicone plugs that work great for this. I bought mine from Eastwood but electrical tape wound tightly will work temporarily. Mac

[Tic's60]

and here I sit in O'Fallon MO while your having all of the fun!!:D
Glad to hear the good news!!!

[blumun53]

It's imperative that you make sure the air is being pulled through the radiator at stops. See, it's not as necessary when you're moving, as the natural movement of the car does this for you. You say there is a gap between the radiator and the shroud. Close that gap somehow, and I believe your problem will go away. Try something temporary at first to see if it works. If there is a gap, then the air is not forced to come through the radiator. Remember that saying about the route of least resistance? Same applies here. It's easier for air to come through that gap than it is to come through those tiny openings in your radiator fins. Make sense?

[Tic's60]

So did you get the shroud done? If you need a welder just call and bring it over.
Me I have been sanding all day. I need to go to the day labor spot and get about four essays to sand for 20.00:D I do allot of things but I hatz sanding!

[Tic's60]

Now the second prize !!! There were 160 beutiful cars at the show for Father's day with numerious "tricked out" TriFives, Hot Rods, Roadsters and cars of every make and model lots of $$$$ on display. Out of all the beutiful Chevolets, many much better than mine (IMO), the BelAir was voted Best Chevolet ! :dunno I have to tell you, I didn't vote for me. Eventhough I didn't build the car for the purpose of getting prizes, it is always nice to be recognized by your peers for all the hard work and efforts you have put in.

Funny thing I just talked to a guy while looking for some BBC stuff, Mark, and he asked me "Have you seen that black 409 car? It keeps beating us at every damm show" :D He's the one with a blown grey Nova.
Thought you should know!

[Nuts]

Tic,

I know that car and it is really nice. I don't know why I'm getting these awards lately, but it's nice to be recognized for the work. I sure didn't vote for myself at the Father's Day show, there were some really nice cars down there.

I hope you get the sanding and primer done on the car so that you can make the Motorfest weekend. Look for you there !!! :clap

[dq409]

Tic,

I know that car and it is really nice. I don't know why I'm getting these awards lately, but it's nice to be recognized for the work.


WHY??? Because it`s a super clean 62 with a 409 !!!

Thats why !!!

Nice Novas??? everywhere,,,

Nice black 62`s with a 409 ???? Rare !!!:clap :cheers

[Nuts]

DQ,

Yes, you are correct, but the average guy on the street doesn't know that the car is rare. It's just that usually the chrome, glitz and glamour will get the votes or the mostly stock and painted engine compartment.

But "She real fine my 409" still holds a sweet memory for a lot of people !!! :) It's always amazing how many people, younger than 50, had one or knew someone who had a 409 ??? Seems there were a lot more 09 built than we have been told maybe it's a conspiracy !

[Tic's60]

I hope you get the sanding and primer done on the car so that you can make the Motorfest weekend. Look for you there !!! :clap

Oh I'll be there !:D I have very little left to do and will have it covered by saturday. Sunday is test day to make sure I have everything working smothly then I am going to call over a police buddy to do an inspection just for added insurance for when I do get pulled over :D Nampa cops have a hard on for hot rods and can be some real a$$ about it. So I intend on cover my butt this time around.

[dq409]

Oh I'll be there !:D :D Nampa cops have a hard on for hot rods and can be some real a$$ about it. So I intend on cover my butt this time around.


You need this bumper sticker :


Capable of Eluding High Speed Pursuit:D

[mac1]

You need this bumper sticker :
Capable of Eluding High Speed Pursuit:D


Or my favorite. "Horn Broke Watch For Finger!" :brow

[Nuts]

I saw one the other day that I really liked... "My lug nuts have more torque than your rice burner !!!":rofl :rofl

[rstreet]

I've got a good one coming"my John Deere Back Hoe is smarter than your honor student"
Robert