ONE 482, and TWO 446 STOKERS? [Archive] - 348-409.com Info Exchange

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desapience

07-07-2007, 08:45 PM

Hey Guys!

As some of you learned when you emailed me, I've been AWOL from the FORUM for a few months for a few reasons!

One month was spent gawd-aweful SICK -- with a terrible case of the FLU and a bacterial pneumonia!! It put me DOWN for near the full-count!

As some of you also know, my 55 Chevy pulled off a 2nd place at the 15th CCI Winter Nationals this past February -- not bad for a 7-year old driver show-car!!

The 55 had my 1st 409/446 stroker in it then, and while tooling back from the show -- steadily -- at easily twice the double-nickle, I bent a push-rod!!! That immediatley led to a slightly bent intake valve, and a flattened cam-lobe!!! I limped back home the last 20 miles or so with it, all the while contemplating that 2nd place means FIRST LOSER!!

Anyway, I immediately set about the task of removing the engne, rebuilding it -- BETTER -- going to a bit wilder Isky roller cam, 7/16" screw-in studs, micronited Crane hydraulic rollers, BIGGER MANLEY SS valves, Comp-Cam low profile roller rockers, all topped off with my 2nd M/T cross-ram intake, with AVS 650's!

All new pulley system, new aluminum Edlebrock water pump, and ZOOP A/C & Alt brackets -- are set to go. I am going for "Best Engne" at the next CCI show!

But, alas, I have a 3rd 446 stroker in the planning stages -- already have a 64-65 409 truck block ready to go, a nice new set of ALUMINUM HEADS are on the way, and another Edelbrock WP coming soon. It will be a lower compression motor (9.5 - 10:1) to make it more gas-pump friendly, and sport the same Isky roller cam set-up as in my other freshly rebuilt 446!

Since both my M/T crossram intakes are on the 482 and other 446, I remain undecided as to what I'll use to aspirate this next 446! I'm thinkng EFI of some sort -- again, to make this last stroker a bit tamer yet more effciient and leaving a smaller carbon foot-print!

How quickly I finish the 55's redo (frame detail, new smoothed and less cluttered inner fenders, an updated Rack & Pinion and more refined steering shaft set-up (to better clear the new ceramic coated Sanderson Headers), etc..., will determine which engine goes into the engine bay when completed. If I get the aluminum-headed 446 finished in time, it will provide the power. If not, the freshly rebuilt 446 gets the call.

Any ideas on what EFI system to use/modify?

Denis

rstreet

07-07-2007, 10:00 PM

Dennis: Glad to hear you're back on here feeling better and getting the 55 sorted out
Robert

JimKwiatkowski

07-07-2007, 11:25 PM

Denis Welcome back,and sorry to hear about your illness

Ronnie Russell

07-07-2007, 11:29 PM

Denis, Welcome back. Glad you have your good health back. Keep us updated on the 55 progress.

Tom Kochtanek

07-08-2007, 09:10 AM

Denis:

Glad to learn that your health has returned and that you've spent your time making more Ws! Not sure what to recommend for EFI, I always liked the aftermarket Algon setup. Perhaps something newer might fit your build better?

Good luck with the projects!

Cheers,
TomK

Skip FIx

07-08-2007, 11:23 AM

Denis, choices for intakes or controllers?

The FAST or ACCEL seem to be the most common used. Holley now has a wide band addition for theit 950 Commander that can help. In any system using one with a wide band O2 sensor to help tune the mixture.

As far as intakes you can add injector bungs in any intake. Even a dual quad with two throttle bodies. Hot Rod had an article a few years ago of an early Hemi guy doing that and midifiying the AFBs to just be throttle bodies. Probably easier to modify a tunnel ram base or dual quad base to take a upper plenum with a single throttle body like the old TPI SBC/LT1s. Others have used a single four single plane but we don't have one of those yet for out 09s. Maybe a custom Hogans or one of Lamar's.

Using an old mechanical FI intake can be done but is a little trickier and pricier

skipxt4

07-08-2007, 07:02 PM

Denis: Glad to hear you're feeling better.:clap Don't worry about your engine, It'll be better the second time around.:brow Skip:)

bignbad60

07-09-2007, 01:04 PM

Dick MacKenzie

07-10-2007, 03:05 PM

Denis,
Welcome back! We've missed you. Sounds like you're in for some fun this summer. :clap

desapience

07-11-2007, 02:15 AM

Denis,
Glad your physically healthy again. If I read your post correctly you were cruising at 110+ mph for a prolonged period ? What was the tack reading ? What gears are you running out back. IF you are running highway gears , does that motor bog badly off the line with all the carburation? Good luck with the rebuild.
Tim

Tim,

I wanted to thank you and eveyrone for the good will. I'm feeling great, and getting myself psyched out to dive into re-doing my 55 Chevy for showing again!

Tim, my 55 has/had a 700R4, with a 9-inch Fxxd, sporting posi - 3:50 gearing. The only upcoming change to that, is that I'm going to a 'built' paddle-shifted 4L60E, which is basically a (TCI controlled) electronically shifted 700R4 (and a slightly higher stall converter -- 2400, due to a cam-change, as explained below). With these transmissions, the over-drive makes for a very nice low RPM highway cruiser, even with 3:50 gears! And, with their low 1st gear, absolutely NO bogging what-so-ever existed off the line, and that was with the carb linkage set as non-progressive, and even with prior 3:23 rear-end gearing! Stepping on the gas, led to only one thing ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzooooooMMM M!

I lost the push-rod, and all that followed, to a simple "misunderestimation" (ha). When I first built the Z-11 cammed 446 stroker, I did not want to molest the cherry 583 heads it had, so, I left the stock 3/8" pinned studs, and used the bigger boxier Scorpion 1.75 roller rockers, and did not use guide plates. Now, the 'boxy' Scorpion rockers are fine for lower lift cams, but, used as I had them set up, led to a twisting of the one rocker off of the valve stem -- leading immediatley to the pushrod failure, etc.

Last Summer a number of us, including me, were struggling with hot-running engines, and with Jim and I, especially, using a 'scientifically' based experimentation process that pointed to Jim's 5" WP pulley having provided for his better cooling results. Over-driving the WP a bit, was a good thing, but, it was not the initially perceived increased water-flow that provided the benefit, it was the increased RPM of the fan pulling more air through the radiator, that was responsible for the improved cooling!

In my own testing, I also compared the aluminum CRW WP against a stock cast rion pump, and found that the stock pump actually cooled about 5-10% BETTER than the EXPENSIVE CRW unit! This was probably due to the CRW impeller being of the pressed-steel variety, versus the cast-iron (or brass), curved-finned impeller on the stock WP.

I, myself, also got better cooling results by going to a custom-made 'classic' Griffen radiator, sporting two rows of 1 1/2 inch tubes! This goes against some of the popular wisdom previously posted here by others, who adhere to the belief that anything beyond a 1-inch tube will not cool as well. Tell that to Peterbuilt.

The bottom line is, no matter what size or type of radiator you run, if the air-flow is inadequate, or in any way stiffled, you will eventually over-heat. If you are depending upon only an electric fan, then, the radiator's air-flow will eventually actually be blocked by the fan blades (the relative speed of the car, versus the constant pull (or push) of air by the fan. So, while an electric fan may cool acceptably at lower city driving speeds, you can actually find your engine running much hotter as the overall speed of the car is increased, on average. In such a stituation, shuttng down the electric fan at higher speeds, should result in more efficient air-flow through the radiator, and better cooling!

But, in tearing down my 'hurt' 446, I also discovered something else. Upon inspection of my .093 thick solid copper head gaskets (from Showcars), there was a combustion breech between both siamese-paired cylinders on each bank! I did not find any points of water leakage into the combustion chambers, but, obviously the breeches I did find, did not help cooling issues one bit! My compression ratio is 11.2:1 (Ross pistons).

Two possible reasons for the breeches were, ONE: I did NOT retorque the heads after initial run-in, and TWO: the solid copper gaskets were NOT annealed after they were rough-stamped, and later refined for fit by me (using a Fel-Pro gasket as the template on a jig.). Now, for a discussion of just what annealing is and means for proper sealing, and the process for doing it, go to: www.scegaskets.com

The proper annealing of solid copper gaskets is a must-do!! Also, SCE (they make gaskets for most every top-dog racer on the planet), "strongly recommends" retorquing of these gaskets, as well as the use of a copper spray sealant (properly and evenly applied, on both sides of each gasket)!

Now then, because of this need to retorque my heads after run-in, I did NOT use guide plates on this rebuild (the heads have not been drilled). If guide plates had been used, retorquing would have been a major hassle, because the guide plates block access to some of the head-bolts! I am now also using low profile Comp-Cams roller rockers, on screw-in 7/16" studs, with a 1.7, NOT a 1.75 roller rocker ratio, which should help to resist any rocker twisting off the valve stems.

The new Isky cam's dual-pattern valve lift, as calculated on this 1.7 ratio, is Intake .578, and exhaust .608... it is a hydraulic lifter camshaft. This is a roller cam, using the new micronited, Crane, oiled-roller, lifters.

As compared to the previous FLAT-TAPPET cam (Isky hydraulic Z-11 grind, with a single pattern lift of .564), this new camshaft, will be a bit wilder. The 583 heads also now have SS Manley 2.25 intake valves installed. This should help with better acommodating the somewhat widler camshaft profile. New polished PML valve covers top the valve train!

The MSD 8393 distributor will be used again with a mix of their light and meduim centrifugal advance springs (as before), and the basic timing will be set at 13 degress BTDC. The 'un-timed' carb-port will be used for vacuum advance, for an overall timing of 34 degrees BTDC (vacuum provides 21 degrees, so, 13 + 21 = 34).

For the moment, I also plan to use a polished M/T crossram intake with twin AVS 650 cfm Edeldbrock carbs (manual choke versions), jetted stock out-of-the-box to begin with (better to be a bit rich, than too lean). This can change, as hood-clearance issues are a close factor, as well. I will NOT put a bubble-hood on this car!

This 446 now also has the new Sanderson ceramic coated headers. You should always run-in a fresh build, sporting ceramic headers, with carburation set on the rich-side, or, pre-tune the car with arternate headers. This protects you from running too lean at run-in, and potentially discoloring the ceramic headers.

As for cooling this 409/446, show-car, roller-cammed, street-beast, I will again use the new custom-made Griffen, and a new Edelbrock aluminum WP (exactly as Jim posted pictures of, and which I received today). I do not expect it to better cool as compared to a stock WP, but it should cool better than my previous CRW aliuminum WP, and it looks great, even unpolished! But, one porblem I did find with the new Edelbrock WP is a definite clashing of one WP back-plate hex-bolt with the timing cover (did you find the same problem, Jim?). This problem is easily solved by grinding the bolt down a bit, or, going to a flat-head allen screw.

This time around, I am also planning to go to a 16-inch belt-driven cooling fan, supplimented by the same Dakata digital computer controlled electric fan, but, set to come on only when the A/C is activated (the on-demand feature), with an overall cut-off switch if the car heats up at higher relative speeds (as previously discussed).

This new 446 rebuild, is only one-weekend away from being ready for install. By that I mean, it will have the intake, all ZOOPS brackets & belts, distributor, power steering pump, all already installed and adjusted. It will lack only the carbs and linkage as it hangs from the cherry picker! It is painted a graphite color, not Chevy orange!

I'll try to post pictures, likely on Sunday evening.

Denis :beerbang

JimKwiatkowski

07-11-2007, 07:28 AM

Denis,Thanks for the tip on the backing plate screws on the Edelbrock water pump.I think when I install the Edelbrock pump,I'll have to install a restrictor plate.I believe I have my coolant flow perfect now,and installing the Edlebrock pump will speed up my coolant flow :dunno

rstreet

07-11-2007, 08:37 AM

Denis: Great review on your progresss:beerbang :beerbang Do you know where Norwalk is?? Meaning could you bring it??? Otherwise I may have to find a Fla. excuse. Which is coming up any way to the Tampa area to look at a property so I may have to go down the long way to your side.
Robert

dq409

07-11-2007, 12:10 PM

used the bigger boxier Scorpion 1.75 roller rockers, and did not use guide plates. Now, the 'boxy' Scorpion rockers are fine for lower lift cams, but, used as I had them set up, led to a twisting of the one rocker off of the valve stem -- leading immediatley to the pushrod failure, etc.

The new Isky cam's dual-pattern valve lift, as calculated on this 1.7 ratio, is Intake .578, and exhaust .608... it is a hydraulic lifter camshaft. This is a roller cam, using the new micronited, Crane, oiled-roller, lifters.

Denis :beerbang

Denis, Glad to hear you are back and in good health !!

I`m am using the boxy Scorpion rockers with a higher lift cam then yours and don`t have any problems with them twisting off the valve stems and I`m not using guides.
I think the problem you had was caused by using the stock studs. ,,dq

desapience

07-11-2007, 01:39 PM

dq,

Yes, I agree, which is why also I went to 7/16" ARP screw-in studs!

Denis

RCE1962

07-16-2007, 12:30 AM

Hey Denis!

Glad your back and feeling well. I always enjoy the descriptive posts.

Ron

hogmotors

07-19-2007, 12:16 AM

"
The bottom line is, no matter what size or type of radiator you run, if the air-flow is inadequate, or in any way stiffled, you will eventually over-heat. If you are depending upon only an electric fan, then, the radiator's air-flow will eventually actually be blocked by the fan blades (the relative speed of the car, versus the constant pull (or push) of air by the fan. So, while an electric fan may cool acceptably at lower city driving speeds, you can actually find your engine running much hotter as the overall speed of the car is increased, on average. In such a stituation, shuttng down the electric fan at higher speeds, should result in more efficient air-flow through the radiator, and better cooling!"
DENIS,
I would agree totally, & we sell ele. fans-a LOT of them. As is mentioned in the Vintage Air web Site, an engine driven fan almost ALWAYS cools better than anything else when all are properly set up. That's been our expirence over the last 35 yrs. anyway.

UK Racer

07-19-2007, 09:32 AM

JimKwiatkowski

07-19-2007, 09:52 AM

desapience

07-20-2007, 02:26 AM

What you say about airflow sounds right to me. Do you think at some speed it is nolonger worth having the fan shroud as this probably gives some restriction to the air off the radiator? :scratch
I'm asking 'cos my '64 project is going to end up only used on racing road course circuits so will always be at speed and I'm wondering what fan / shroud set-up will work best. For info, I estimate lap average speeds ~60mph with peak of ~120mph.
Sorry if I'm getting off thread asking this?
Adam :)

Adam,

With any STATIC fan, by that I mean a fan that is constantly connected to a drive source, there will also exist a specific speed of 'realtive-speed' air-flow (via overall vehicle speed), that will eventually try to force air through the radiator faster than the fan can pull or push it through the radiator. At that point, the fan blades actually begin to restrict further airflow! At that point, the coolant builds up more heat, as the cooling efficency of air-flow reduces -- leading to a hotter running engine situation or even overheating at higher speeds!

Using a shroud greatly increases the efficiency of a -- let's say engine-driven fan, especially at vehicle speeds that are less than the relative air-flow. This is because the air-pulling force of the fan is specifically directed to pull air through the radiator alone (keep in mind that such fans need to be mounted 'half-in and half-out' of the shroud to work properly!

But, even a 'direct-connect' engine driven fan, mounted properly with a shroud, will, at some point, also become an air-flow blockage when the car reaches the relative speed of air-flow produced by the speed of the car.

Auto manufacturers approached this problem long ago by developing a mechanism to "slip or release the fan' at the higher operating speeds (of the vehicle). It's called a fan-clutch.

How these clutches operate (thermal or mechanical) is moot, save to say that at higher vehicle speeds, these clutches release the fan (whole or in part) from the drive source (belt-driven water-pump), which in turn, reduces the air-blockage effect of the fan, thus, allowing more air-flow through the radiator, as forced through the radiator by the vehicle's increased speed!

So, in response to your question, and in context of using this example of using a fan-clutch, the shroud is not a negative factor (at any vehicle speed). What is being achieved by use of a fan-clutch, is continually producing a situation for increased air-flow through the radiator regardless of the SANE speeds the vehicle is traveling (anything beyond the relative-speed air-flow of the fan).

Indeed, some of you may argue that, as the engine RPM's go up (with vehicle speed), so too does the increased air-pulling capacity of a DIRECTLY connected belt-driven fan, right?

WRONG!

You need to keep in mind too, that as our street driven cars gain speed, they also shift into higher gears, and the engine RPM's drop (on average -- as compared to a car in City-driving, spending much of it's time running at higher RPM's, on average, in lower gearing (stop ang go, etc), relative to the vehicle's speed! In this situation, the direct-drive fan is still pulling air through the radiator faster than what is being forced-fed through the radiator by the vehicle's lower speed!

Capiche?

Denis :cheers

desapience

07-22-2007, 02:08 AM

Guys,

This is the rebuilt 446 Isky hydraulic, roller-cammed engine being prepped to go back into my 55 Chevy. Note the Edelbrock Aluminum water pump (Geez, just a couple years ago many here believed it would never happen!!)!!

Anyway, the engine still needs pre-oiling, and a few odds and ends before installation. I'll be posting more pics as the project matures.

Denis :beerbang

rstreet

07-22-2007, 08:05 AM

Denis: unreal!!! all I can say is that I am as speechless as after my last root canal
Robert

JimKwiatkowski

07-22-2007, 09:45 AM

Denis,the 09 looks Great Good job :clap :cool: do you have a carb linkage setup ?

DaveFoster

07-22-2007, 09:52 AM

If I had an engine that looked that good I would take off my hood and throw it away.:rofl

desapience

07-22-2007, 12:50 PM

Denis,the 09 looks Great Good job :clap :cool: do you have a carb linkage setup ?

Jim,

Yes, I did complete the linkage set-up. In the picture below, you'll note the small aluminum bracket mounted just behind the driver's side carb. That will be where I mount the throttle-position sensor for the TCI Transmission controller (for the 4L60E).

Also take note of the unside-down mounted arm just to the right of the bracket. That arm is adjusted to hit the lower bottom of the carb to limit rotational travel of the entire linkage (at WOT), preventing any bending of the carb-throttle arms from any chance of being trwisted too far open.

On the extreme left, you can see how I used the Lokar cable to operate the linkage. The transmission pump-pressure control cable will be mounted off the passenger side-carb arm to reduce clutter on the left carb. For those who do not realize this, there is no common plenum on this intake, so, there is no progessive linkage setting possible on this set-up. Each carb feeds only one opposing bank of cylinders.

Denis

Bam59

07-22-2007, 02:22 PM

Denis,,first I'd like to say ,glad your back and all is well.
Next the motor,,,a masterpiece:cheers
what years did you us for your 4L60E to a 409
Best of luck in the shows mike

JimKwiatkowski

07-22-2007, 03:25 PM

Denis,it looks like where using the same linkage I got mine from Dale Wilch .Aren't you running a PCV Vavle,I run a valve from the back of the right carb to the back of the intake,here's a photo.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q90/JIMKWI/Picture351.jpg

desapience

07-22-2007, 04:45 PM

Jim,

Yes, I got the linkage from Dale's as well (his ebay Store). I bought 3 kits. Two for the two M/T intakes, the 3rd kit for spare parts. Dale had only a couple kits left a few weeks ago.

Yes, I am using a PCV valve, mounted directly into the back of the intake, but, if you look carefully at the picture I posted of the linkage set-up, you can see both intakes share it.

My 482 remains as a long-block, unfired, on a engine stand, and will likely get the 2nd M/T intake.... not sure :dunno

My 3rd Stroker (another 446) is already in the works, as well. But it'll have Bob Walla's aluminum heads (with a pump-friendly 9.5 compression ratio). The heads are presently getting the valve-work completed. It will also have an new Edelbrock Aluminum WP. I've been kicking around putting a 6-71 blower on it, just for kicks, BIG kicks, indeed! Alternatively, maybe some sort of EFI system.

A soon as I finish my 55 this time around, which I have yet to complete the engine bay detailing, and installing the COMPLEX wiring harness for the 4L60E and other dash-board upgrades..., only then will I decide upon which engine gets to live in it. If the aluminum-headed 446 is done by then, it will be installed (with an M/T intake). If not, the one in the pictures gets the call.

Mike, I do not know the exact year the 4L60E came from... but, it's really just an electronically controlled 700-R4, and a perfect fit.

I absolutely dread working in the Florida Summer heat..., so, it'll be slow going, one step at a time. But, when it is finished this time, it's finished (yeah, right)!

Denis :D

JimKwiatkowski

07-22-2007, 05:25 PM

Denis,you have too many 409's and you need to buy some more cars to install them in,or raffle off a couple of them :deal :rofl :rofl

desapience

07-22-2007, 07:16 PM

Denis,you have too many 409's and you need to buy some more cars to install them in,or raffle off a couple of them :deal :rofl :rofl

Jim,

Is there even such a thing as having too many 409's??? :dunno

Remember, I also have an unfired ZZ430 clone, and a 1931 Chevy 5-window coupe! I'm somewhat at a loss as to what I will power the '31' with! As a true full-bodied driver, it needs the ZZ430, with a trick tri-power unit (Barry Grant six-shooter) atop it to keep it cool looking!

With a 482 in it, it would almost have to be unfendered and with an open hood, and of course some damn good seatbelts!! :rofl

... I've also been hunting for a nice '55' Chevy pickup!!

But, I'm also thinking to fill-in my pool and extending the house out to the pool-deck, and making it a showroom... with two accompanying fully-functional '09's as furniture!! :cheers

Denis

Dick MacKenzie

07-22-2007, 07:26 PM

Denis..
only one word.....Beautiful! :clap

oldskydog

07-22-2007, 10:26 PM

Denis,
Forget the small block for the 31. It deserves a creative 348 build.....maybe a stroker? I'm working on a 60 FE code 335 hp for my 33. No "McChevy"here. :D

desapience

07-23-2007, 10:57 PM

Denis,
Forget the small block for the 31. It deserves a creative 348 build.....maybe a stroker? I'm working on a 60 FE code 335 hp for my 33. No "McChevy"here. :D

D,

McChevy...!!! I like that analogy!! Far too many SBC's, seen one, seen them all...

If I do put a "W" in the 31 Coupe, it'll be a stroker 409.., and possibly even the 482 I already have built. We shall see, but, first I need to finish my 55...

Denis