rebuilding cost's of an '09

[Tuxedo63]

Hi fella's..
I have a 409 truck motor that i'm going to rebuild and just have a couple question's regarding the typical cost's of these.
I've built many motor's myself this one being next on mylist, and have a couple close friends who either own, or work at engine machine shop's..
My question is this.
I know there are certain item's that cost a bit more to do on these motor's, but for a pretty straight up rebuild, using Ross piston's, and nice solid cam, and the better bearings etc , the item's you would use when building a quality small or big block, would the overall cost's be that much higher than building the typical chevy mill?
I ask because i've been hearing machine shop cost's alone will be much higher just due to what it is..
Now, i'm no rocket scientist, and although the deck, combustion chambers, head's are much different, wouldn't the basic shop cost's be no different than that of any other motor?
I know there will more than likely be an increase in cost's of boring, set up etc just due to the deck angle so i'm not concerned about that..

And like i said, i'm doing all the disassembly, and assembly myself so there is no bill to pay there.

Just wondering why i'm told this would be that much more.
Thanks for your time and input.

Tony

[Tom Kochtanek]

Tony, you've asked a good question. Sure, lots of the costs will be the same. But there are some additional considerations, as you've hinted at yourself.

I am assuming that you will be going with the truck heads, or are you thinking of exacting a bit more performance out of that 4049 build? If you seek the latter, you will find that a good set of heads (original iron or new aluminum upgrades) will set you back a few thousand dollars, just for the bare castings. If you just go with bigger valves in the truck heads, your costs will be similar to those of the SBC and BBC.

You mentioned Ross pistons, and by that I am assuming forged aluminum pistons? If so, add another $600 or so just for the pistons.

Gasket kits run around $100 give or take a few. Exhaust manifolds can be pricey, and if you have the two inch variety, consider either headers or the stock 2.5" manifolds. Since the headers are not "mass produced" you note that the options aren't all that great and the costs are somewhat high.

I'm not at all familiar with the cost of parts for SBcs and BBCs, but since these are mass produced, expect these more common parts to be less. The basic machine shop work is similar, except that boring cylinders and opening valves should be undertook by an experienced pro. It's not terribly hard to get into the water passages on those old iron heads.

Others will chime in with their experiences and offer you even more detail. In the end, your investment in time and money (and talent!) will more than offset the extra dollars that will leak from your wallet :).

Best,
TomK

[GOSFAST]

Hi fella's..
I have a 409 truck motor that i'm going to rebuild and just have a couple question's regarding the typical cost's of these.
I've built many motor's myself this one being next on mylist, and have a couple close friends who either own, or work at engine machine shop's..
My question is this.
I know there are certain item's that cost a bit more to do on these motor's, but for a pretty straight up rebuild, using Ross piston's, and nice solid cam, and the better bearings etc , the item's you would use when building a quality small or big block, would the overall cost's be that much higher than building the typical chevy mill?
I ask because i've been hearing machine shop cost's alone will be much higher just due to what it is..
Now, i'm no rocket scientist, and although the deck, combustion chambers, head's are much different, wouldn't the basic shop cost's be no different than that of any other motor?
I know there will more than likely be an increase in cost's of boring, set up etc just due to the deck angle so i'm not concerned about that..

And like i said, i'm doing all the disassembly, and assembly myself so there is no bill to pay there.

Just wondering why i'm told this would be that much more.
Thanks for your time and input.

Tony

Hi Tony, no matter who does your unit let me give you a few tips here for a "solid" foundation. I'll itemize them for you to make things easier to follow.....

let me start with the short block first,

1-Make certain they drill and tap ALL pressed oil galley plugs, use NO pressed plugs. (Also make certain ALL have been removed for cleaning)

2-DO NOT use the '09 connecting rods, go directly to either the "stock" 6.135" piece or go right up to the +.250" BB's. Take advantage of the "floating" pins with the Ross slugs.

3-Bore the block to the smallest oversize you need to "clean-it-up"! No more!

4-Keep the C.R. at about 9.75:1 with iron heads, if you go aluminum, up it to 10.75.

5-If it's in the budget use a retro-hydraulic roller an a "steel" core with a "cast" distributor "drive" gear. This will let you run a stock G.M. distributor gear.

6-"Square up" the block decks.

7-Use a SB Hi-Pressure oil pump, no H.V.'s, and be careful of the oil-pump drive, it's a specific length for the '09's.

8-There's probably a few more tips some up here will add, pay attention, there are a bunch of "sharp" people up here. Most of the shops around today are not really familiar with these units, much like the "Nailheads" AND the early "Hemi's"!!

Now to the heads.....

1-Install 7/16" studs AND use guide plates. You can use either the stock 1.7 BB roller rockers or go with a 1.8 intake, 1.7 exhaust.

2-Cast OR bronze guides, if done correctly, both work fine. I may get some
"debate" about this area, but I've done much "experimenting" over the years. I have no issues with either!!

3-When you have the guides done, have them go to the SB Chevy stem size. These are .343" and will help get some more air in AND keep the valve train weight down some. O'size valves are an option, customer choice. Some "minor" porting, nothing "major". Valve length's are available for any combo.

4-Run a "dual" spring setup as "insurance" against "dropping" a valve. Use 10 degree retainers and locks.

5-Pushrods will be fine at the 5/16" size unless you run high spring pressures. Use some "decent" 5/16" (.080" wall). If you choose higher spring rates for the roller setup go to the 3/8" size. It is easier to work with the 5/16" ones.

6-I would try my best at this time to put inserts in for the exhaust's now, the fuel keeps getting worse. We have 10% alcohol here in N.Y. today.

7-DO NOT put oversized exhaust valves AND seats together, this is extremely risky. They will most likely end up "in-water"!! Would prefer seats with the smaller valve and some porting over the "no seats/larger valve" option!! This is my own preference here. This is an important decision on your part, that's why I "highlighted" it.

The pistons should be "built" and not ordered as the "stocking" pieces from Ross. We've been telling them for some time to "move the pins up" and make them fit with the BB rod lengths. The prices for new "bushed" rods are very reasonable now. Probably in the neighborhood of $250.00/8

(Add) Change all the fasteners, use either new main bolts/studs, preferably studs with the 2 B.M. setup, AND replace the head bolts. We use/keep them here from ARP, excellent pieces.

"Good luck"!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We still do a number of these units over here. I'll put a couple of "shots" here of friend's "ride". Looks great up close!!!

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/th_Bobs62409Engine.jpg (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/Bobs62409Engine.jpg)-http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/th_Bobs62409.jpg (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/Bobs62409.jpg)

[Tuxedo63]

Guy's thank's a lot for your input.
Gary, i really appreciate all the specific information you gave me. There is a lot of very good info/advice there and i will take all of it into account when i build mine.

I guess, aside from the boring being more, my biggest issue with the price of this wasn't so much spending the money. I will spend what's needed to get quality.
It was more in trying to understand why these were 'said' to be so much more to build. It has just seemed like a lot of guy's you talk to either have, or know someone who has spent a whole lot of money rebuilding a W motor. And not even building anything real hot, just a stock rebuild.
I built a stout 327 a year or so ago. 12.1 slug's, Brodix head's etc.. I had about 4000 invested using all top quality stuff and built it myself..I can't see why my 409 couldn't be built, granted milder, but with quality parts for around the same amount. And unfortunately i don't have the Hi Perf heads for it.. Wish i did, but that's ok. Can't swing that price tag even if i had them in front of me.

Yet another question. Does anyone have experience with Dr409's stroker engine kit, or any of thier kit's for that matter? This kit has a forged BB chev crank, rod's with floating pins, Ross Stroker pistons etc.. There's a lot of nice stuff with the kit actually. They say no extra machine work need's to be done to the block and the final displacement is around 474..

I should probably add this. Although I do have a 63 Impala SS 327-300 4 speed car myself, the 409 is actually for a steel 32 Ford coupe i'm building. I've spent about 6 years gathering the parts to build this basket case.. The motor came out of a running dump truck.

Again, thanks a LOT for your input guy's.

Tony