Oil pressure

[madchad]

What is the typical oil pressure that a "stock" 409 (dual 4) would run after it is warmed up. I think that I may have a problem. When I bring the rpms up the pressure goes up which is normal, but when it is at idle after warming it drops way low (according to the aftermarket guage in the car) I looked at the oil and it does look a little thin, but doesn't appear dirty or contaminated...Any help would be greatly appreciated. (BTW this is my first W motor and haven't had it very long and was supposedly rebuilt only about 1500 miles ago before I bought it.) Thanks
Chad:confused:

[SteveD409]

Where are you reading the pressure from? In other words where is the line hooked up to the engine? There is a hook up point in the area just above the timing cover/water pump, if you are using that then what you are reading is the pressure AFTER everything has been fed (naturally lower than if reading the pressure back by the filter).

SteveD

[dq409]

What is you high end and low end?? i had this problem that I would have great pressure at upper revs but almost none at idle or low rpm. If thats the case your oil pump relief valve has gone south.Unfortunately you will have to change the pump,,,dq

[madchad]

It is reading around 60 at higher revs and 10-15 at idle. Is this similar to your previous situation? I have to go back and look at where it is taking the reading.

[dq409]

At those pressures you have it hooked up right. Thats not bad,,,,,How many miles on the engine and what oil weight are you using?,,,dq

[madchad]

I just got the car last winter before the snow started and need to do an oil change before I start to drive it much so what would you recommend. I live in Michigan and the car will probably never see temps below 60 and that would be on a night when it cooled down significantly. As far as the milage the guy said that he thought only about 2000 miles max and that would probably be on the high side. It was a "restored" car showing minimal wear since it's "restoration".
Thanks for the advice. If I do determine later on that it does need a new oil pump what kind of time am I looking at to have that work done (at a reputable shop) considering you have had experience with this issue? Again thanks
Chad

[dq409]

The good news is you shouldn`t need a new pump !!!
I would use a Havoline or Valvoline 10/40 or 15/40.
I`m sure you will hear other recommendations but any quality oil and a regular change should keep it on the road for years !!! I would though stay away from Pennsoil,,,,dq

[tripowerguy]

I agree stay away from Pennzoil, And if you are not running in any cold weather you could run a straight 30 wt. high detergent oil. I use Castrol but I think Havolin is a good oil also. I had a similar problem and I messed with the idle and found that at 500 rpm it read 10 to 15 lbs. and at 600 it read 25. This was after it was warmed up to 180 degrees. I replaced the oil pump with a mellings and it read 25 at 500 rpm and 60 at cruising speed. I think that if an engine sits a lot the pressure relief spring in those pumps go bad. Roy

[bobs409]

What's wrong with Pennzoil? That's what I use.
:confused:
As for oil pressure, mine goes as high as 60 when driving cold and as low as 25 hot idling.

Cold:
40 idling-55/60 driving
Hot:
25 idling-45/50 driving

[dq409]

Bob,,Bob,,,Bob,,,,,,,,,,,Where have you been ???? Pennzoil is bad oil period !!
As a machanic we saw more friction related problems with engines that the owners used Pennzoil then any other. Don`t know why. And most machanics will agree.
It`s too bad you have ruined your engine by using this stuff !! I`ll do you a favor and take it off your hands for about half it`s value!!! heeeee heeee ,,,dq

[bobs409]

I don't know, I've been using Pennzoil since...well...forever. Mine are all running yet. :)

Not to sound smart but if Havoline is so good, how come I can always get it for $1.15 at the cheapy dollar store where as anything else cost $1.60+ everywhere else including Walmart? That fact scares me away from that brand.

I want to see some cold hard facts as to why Pennzoil is no good before I switch. Too many good/bad rumors going around about this and that. I've heard oil is oil is oil anyway. :p If there was a problem with any one of them, they wouldn't be in business.

Please enlighten me further... Convince me and I'll switch. :D

[Impalaguru]

Hi everyone,
I've always wondered about the oil presures in my 409. Its a bone stock 340hp engine never been rebuilt. My oil pressure guage is up near the intake manifold. Cold it will idle at arround 35 psi, then drops to arround 23-25 in the middle of summer in traffic. Always runs 40 at highway speeds. Do these sound OK? Should I move my fitting down by the oil filter?
BTW, judging from my old oil change tags this engine has had Mobil oil in it since the 60s. Still runs great!
Ross

[bobs409]

That sounds good to me especially for never being rebuilt. Your 340hp 409 may not have the same oil pump as hi-po 409's have so you may not see as high of pressure.

[JokersBel]

I never use pennzoil and have been told not to. I personally have experience with Valvoline and I subscribe to their saying, "...for people who know, use Valvoline." Case in point-1986 Chevrolet full-size 3/4 ton pickup, 350. My dad bought it new, used to tow a fifth-wheel everywhere and had high mileage before sold. The new owner, who was a local respected mechanic removed the engine to rebuild for some hipo car. Ok, so what's the point? Well, when dissassembling, he found that the engine was in spectacular condition! (160,000 miles) He asked what my dad used in it, of course Valvoline! Sold him and me at the same time!

If you want some proof, follow this link and read what Pennzoil does to your engine. I think you will want to change, but be careful, i've always heard that once you use Pennzoil, always use Pennzoil in the same engine. Bad things may happen-anyone heard that too?

Clicky...
http://link.sandiego.com/scripts/wheelbase/message.idc?passin=265

[dadz409]

Bob,
You don't need to change oil brands, Pennzoil used to have too much wax in it's base petroleum. A couple years ago they removed it all and it now is advertized as Free-Base. I used to race a 409 in the sixties, and had a Valvoline sponsorship, so that's what I use. But my son builds engines for Nascar use, and tells me that modern oils are so good that there is little difference between them. Apparently modern oils suspend particles so good, that 10W30 does better now than 20W50 racing oil did back in the old days. So my recommendation would be to spend more time on the oil weight question. I personally use a mix of 10W30 and 20W50, and stay away from 10W40. My new cars, GM, prohibit 10W40, so you don't have to tell me twice.
You can teach an old dog new tricks though. I have always used Fram oil filters and just read a study that says they are no good. Back to Napa and AC Delco for me.
Good Luck, Gary "Capt Gofast"

[Quickshift409]

Has anyone heard of this old rule, no less than 10psi at idle and 10psi for every 1000rpm.

[bobs409]

Yep, 10 pounds for every 1,000 rpm's is what I always heard.

I have a 350 that was in my truck when I bought it. The oil pressure would drop to 5 lbs at idle in gear. I drove it for over 20,000 miles and it still runs! (it's on the garage floor now but still runs-just add car) LOL

[bobs409]

Joker,

I too have engines with alot of miles that are perfectly clean inside and all I ever used was Pennzoil. Could it be that your dad just took good care of that engine with proper maintanence and that is why it's so clean? I change my oil every 3,000 miles on my vehicles (every 2,000 on the 409)

I appreciate the link but the story isn't really proof of anything. Sounds more like one person that just doesn't like Pennzoil. Everybody doesn't like some brand for one reason or another. Who knows, maybe he doesn't like the yellow bottles it comes in. :p I don't like Quaker state because of the color and smell of it but I have no idea if it's good or bad. For all I know, it could be the best out there.

Now im not trying to argue with anyone and no matter how I seem to write this, it sounds that way but im really not. :) I welcome all comments and suggestions.

Anymore links to help sway me over to another brand? LOL Just post them.



Originally posted by JokersBel
I never use pennzoil and have been told not to. I personally have experience with Valvoline and I subscribe to their saying, "...for people who know, use Valvoline." Case in point-1986 Chevrolet full-size 3/4 ton pickup, 350. My dad bought it new, used to tow a fifth-wheel everywhere and had high mileage before sold. The new owner, who was a local respected mechanic removed the engine to rebuild for some hipo car. Ok, so what's the point? Well, when dissassembling, he found that the engine was in spectacular condition! (160,000 miles) He asked what my dad used in it, of course Valvoline! Sold him and me at the same time!

If you want some proof, follow this link and read what Pennzoil does to your engine. I think you will want to change, but be careful, i've always heard that once you use Pennzoil, always use Pennzoil in the same engine. Bad things may happen-anyone heard that too?

Clicky...
http://link.sandiego.com/scripts/wheelbase/message.idc?passin=265

[bobs409]

Gary,

I too used to use Fram filters until I saw that website. They show pics of filter cut apart which is proof to me but I have yet to see proof of Pennzoil being bad. All I hear is rumors and we all know how they spread. If I believed rumors, I probably wouldn't have a 409! :D I've heard it all...Those are just a truck motor don't you know? LOL Prone to blowing up, eating cams, etc.

I too heard that all the oil brands are pretty much the same in quality. They have differences but none are damaging to an engine at least not that im aware of. I hardly think they'd be in business if they did.

I always use 10w/30. And now I only use AC filters. (even though finding them is a chore now a days)


Originally posted by dadz409
Bob,
You don't need to change oil brands, Pennzoil used to have too much wax in it's base petroleum. A couple years ago they removed it all and it now is advertized as Free-Base. I used to race a 409 in the sixties, and had a Valvoline sponsorship, so that's what I use. But my son builds engines for Nascar use, and tells me that modern oils are so good that there is little difference between them. Apparently modern oils suspend particles so good, that 10W30 does better now than 20W50 racing oil did back in the old days. So my recommendation would be to spend more time on the oil weight question. I personally use a mix of 10W30 and 20W50, and stay away from 10W40. My new cars, GM, prohibit 10W40, so you don't have to tell me twice.
You can teach an old dog new tricks though. I have always used Fram oil filters and just read a study that says they are no good. Back to Napa and AC Delco for me.
Good Luck, Gary "Capt Gofast"

[tripowerguy]

Which site had the study on oil filters? I had a 4 cyl. DORF in 1990 that I drove 35 miles one way to work. It was new and I had always used Pennzoil. The car used a quart of oil every 1000 miles so I took it to dealer and said I thought a brand new car souldn't use oil between changes. He said that it was the oil I was using and I should use Motorcraft. I went home and switched to Castol and it never used a drop of oil for the 10 years and 270,000 miles I put on it. It was still running good when I traded it off. I have used Castol in everything since including lawnmower. I don't believe that Pennzoil hurts an engine but the guy from Redline did an article on oil and he said don't buy cheap oil. The more antiwear agents put in the oil the more it costs. He said he buys cheap oil to break in an engine and then puts Redline syntetic in. I just can't bring myself to pay $8.00 a quart. Roy

[fatride]

I use Mobil 1 15/50 synthetic after break in. When I tear down my engines the bearings look like they did when I put them in. Very lite scuffing. I use two quart filters also, I have an STP two quart filter now that I have no information on. Does anyone know who makes this filter and is it any good??

[64ss409]

I have that oil filter study address somewhere around here. When I find it, I will start a new thread.
Ron

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Hey... this has been good reading !
I do like Tripower... warm months, I use the best quality straight 30W that I can get. When it's cooler ( to cold ! ), I use 10-30.

Never Used Penzoil. Been a Quaker State user for a long time though. Yes, Havoline is an excellent product... but somewhat difficult to comeby here. As of the last 5 years, I have been using the high end Imperal Oil products.

As was stated earlier, the quality of oil nowdays, goes a long ways to explaining how these newer cars will run for 200,000 miles.
MAN!... IMAGINE how many miles a 195HP 283 would go with modern oils and tuning ?!!

As for oil pressure, the typical high volume pumps that we use will give a fully warm engine about 60 PSI @ cruise highway speeds. I like my engines a bit on the loose side... hot idle pressure ( unless it idles like this "Stocker" @ 1400 RPM ! )... is normally around 20-25 ( 750-900 RPM ).

This stock, well worn 340HP that I've been driving, has full speed oil pressure of just under 40, and only about 15 at 600 RPM idle.

[IgnitionMan]

Since the oil pressure taps for senders, front and rear, are both from the same feed, camshaft feeds are the origin, pressures in each are the same, not diffent. At least, on every Chevy engine, small, big and/or W engines I've ever done and/or tested, even ones that have had the SAME guage connected to both the outputs.

Bob, look at what is left in the bottom of the pennzoil bottle, small paricles of grit. Had some analized, grit.

As far as oil filters, FRAM IS OUT, very poorly constructed. AC, NAPA Gold, Wix are the best to use, don't drop the line pressures like a Fram does.

[J & J]

What do you guys use for break in oil, any thing special. Has been years since I had a "Fresh Rebuilt" engine. we use to use Re-Refinded oil, but that was way back in the 60's.

[fatride]

http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

[fatride]

http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt

[tripowerguy]

Thanks Fatride, I printed off both of the articles and I guess from this information synthetics are the best protection for your engine. I am just astounded at the good information that comes on this site. :) Roy