61 Bel Air Sport coupe V8 or 6 ??

[jas63ss]

I recently purchased a 61 Bel Air bubbletop with no engine or trans. and am wondering what it came with for an engine. The VIN says it's a 6 cyl. car (1537)but the trim tag says STYLE 61-1637 which would be a V-8. I'm putting my other 409 in it after I finish my '63 SS convertible QB 409, 4 speed but was curious as to what it came with. Both tags appear to be very original as was the rest of the car.

Thanks
Jimmy

[real61ss]

Jimmy,
The VIN tag tells the story. All trim tags listed the V8 number, there were no 6 cyl trim tags

[oldskydog]

Jimmy,
The VIN tag tells the story. All trim tags listed the V8 number, there were no 6 cyl trim tags

Tommy,
That's what I always thought too but check the pic of the cowl tag in this thread.
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10897
:scratch
I agree though, that the VIN tag is the last word.

[jas63ss]

Thanks guys,

Jimmy

[real61ss]

Tommy,
That's what I always thought too but check the pic of the cowl tag in this thread.


Well....that's a cowl tag from a '66, I don't know anything about them. (don't know much about any of'm) By then they may have made a 6 cyl tag.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

I hear ya', Tommy... I don't know anything about 66 either:dunno :p

There we go:
Just took this photo a few minutes ago... my 1962 BelAir sport coupe.
As is too often the case here in Canada... ANOTHER 6 cylinder car:bang

[SonOfThomp]

I doubt it'll come to this, but if all else fails, check for a front sway bar. Six-cylinder cars didn't have one.

[bobs409]

My 6 cylinder '63 has a front sway bar. It's definetly original. :dunno

[1958 delivery]

I doubt it'll come to this, but if all else fails, check for a front sway bar. Six-cylinder cars didn't have one.


My orig 61 bubble has a sway bar and it's a 6 also.

[Ronnie Russell]

My experiences have taught me to never use the word , " all " to describe anything dealing with these old cars. It'll bite you every time. :rofl

[SonOfThomp]

My 6 cylinder '63 has a front sway bar. It's definetly original. :dunno

Well whaddya know? I had a '60 Bel Air, with a 235; no bar. Was told that was how the 6 bangers were.

[oldskydog]

I'm pretty certain that 58 wagons did not come with swaybars. My 58 Nomad with original 348 did not have one nor did my 58 Brookwood with 348. This appears to be confirmed by the "58 Factory Assemby Manual Section 3 Sheet 4.00, Stabilizer Bar.
Models 1200-1600-1800 (all V8 models) Except Wagons" Also V8 wagons used the same lower control arms as 6 cyl cars with no provision for the sway bar mounts. See:

"Section 3, Sheet 2.00 Lower control arm assy L-6 LH3742061, RH 3742062
V8 (except wagons) LH 3746367 RH 3746368
Wagons LH 3742061 RH 3742062"

Can't imagine why unless they were trying to discourage wagons being driven as performance vehicles or maybe the heavier springs on the wagon were considered enough.:scratch

[1958 delivery]

No sway bar on the 58 delivery.

[SSpev]

I have 3 6 cyclinder cars, 60, 61, 65. If I remember right they all ID 6cyl on the cowl tag. I'm with Ronnie... never say ALL did nor NEVER did.

[real61ss]

"I have 3 6 cyclinder cars, 60, 61, 65. If I remember right they all ID 6cyl on the cowl tag. I'm with Ronnie... never say ALL did nor NEVER did."

If you still own the '61, would you please check and vertify that it has a 6 cyl cowl tag?
If possible, would you post a photo of it.

[oldskydog]

Tommy,
I just checked my 61 Bel Air 6 cyl Kansas City built 4 door sedan and it has the V8 trim tag 11669 and the 6 cyl VIN 11569. Apparently what we have is some evidence that the V8 trim tag rule had some exceptions. The question is why. It might be that Fisher Body received specific orders for 6 cyl cars and were tagged as such. Unless there was a specific difference in the body between the 6 cyl and V8 bodies, I would think Fisher wouldn't know or care what power plant the final assembly plant put in the car on the assembly line. Another possibility might have to do with the proximity of the body plant to the final assembly plant. Some were co-located and some were not requiring shipping the bodies some distance. Co-located plants could coordinate requirements more efficiently.
Logically, I would think that the body manufacturer would build the body to the meet the assembly plant specs. If there was no difference in the body for 6 or V8 then the spec would be for the V8 assuming a higher number V8 cars being sold leaving the option to the assembly line to build the car either way to satisfy specific dealer or customer orders.
:scratch

[real61ss]

Cecil,
I've never seen a 6 cly cowl tag on a '61, that's why I asked SSpev to vertify that he had one. I hope we hear back from him.

[61BISCAYNE]

My '61 Biscayne has, or should I say had one.
I removed it when cleaning-up the firewall for paint.
It "was" a six-cylinder three-on-the-tree car.

[oldskydog]

I found this interesting explanation of the trim tag vs VIN tag discrepancy. Although this is specifically for the Camaro, it seems possible that a similar practice may have been in place on other GM/Fisher Body cars.

12337 VIN vs 12437 Cowl Tag Code
Though it looks very similar to the first part of the VIN, the body style code on the Fisher Body cowl tag did not have the same meaning. Fisher Body didn't need the type of engine coded on the cowl tag, and so stamped the 3rd digit of the Fisher style code differently from the VIN.

The 3rd digit of the VIN identifies which engine (L6 or V8) the car had from the factory. A VIN engine digit of 3 indicates a L6 engine, while a VIN engine digit of 4 indicates a V8 engine.

The cowl tags for 1967 Camaros were stamped with a style code of 12x37 or 12x67, where the x was set to 4 for standard interior or 6 for custom interior. All 1968-69 Camaros had a style code of 12437 or 12467 on the cowl tag - the 3rd digit of the firewall style number for these two years was fixed to 4 and effectively had no meaning.

[1958 delivery]

oldskydog-sent you a message, thanks.

[Impalaguru]

Impalas with a 6 would have a sway bar. Had a 6cyl 3speed 63 Impala 2dr ht with a sway bar.
Ross

[SSpev]

I check my 60, 61, 65 6 cyl cars..... They all have v8 numbers on the cowl tags and 6cyl on the vin tag. Why???

If Fisher mad the tags generic for all bodies, who stamped the colors/options? The factory where they where built, I would suspect.

If so, why do these codes line up with the style (body) code?

If Fisher stamped the style code you would think these numbers would line up with the words "STYLE" and have a simular font/size/stamping.

All of my cars, the codes all match in style as if they where stamper at the same time. The discriptions all match in style as if they where stamper at the same time.:dunno

[oldskydog]

I've done a little more research into the trim tag vs VIN tag question and I think I'm beginning to understand it a little better. If you look in the beginning section of any Fisher Body Manual it is explained although not in the exact detail we are looking for, ie what exactly is the meaning of the third digit on the trim tag. Note that the body number on the trim tag is called "Style" not "Model".
The VIN number is the "Model" number and the third digit does represent the engine installed as presented in the Model Number charts in all GM refence manuals and listed in Colvin's CBTN series publications. The "Style" number on the trim tag is just that, Style as in Biscayne, Bel Air, Impala etc. Fisher built one body for each style regardless of the engine configuration so the third digit in the "Style" number on the trim tag had a different meaning than the third digit on the "Model" number. Fisher used the third digit for their own purposes during body assembly and in some cases it represented a different trim level within the series as in the 67 Camaro standard interior versus the deluxe interior. In other years the interior differences were incorporated entirely in the "Trim" number so the third digit might represent the difference within a given series as in the 66-67 Chevelle 13 series with the third digit "8" representing the SS "Style" without regard to the engine, whereas the "Model" number on the VIN tag would be 13747 for 6cyl 2 dr HT or 13847 for V8 powered 2 dr HT. This information would be useful to the guys on the body assembly line who didn't have to be concerned about the engine. Each body was built to satisfy an order placed by the dealer or through GM's COPO office. This is all pretty well explained in the article I linked in my post under "GM Assembly Process":scratch