Don "Big Daddy" Garlits is comming to KC!!

[TomO]

I just recieved a flyer on a event that is going to take place in KC on Oct 6 and 7th. It is called Muscle Car Reunion. NSS/F.A.S.T and front engine dragsters will all be there. The event is being held at KCIR and check out www.musclecarreunion.com for all the details.

TomO

[bubbletop1961]

Hey tomo. Your 63 would be perfect for the f.a.s.t. series. Sounds like a pretty cool event. May have to make an apperance, even if its with out the car.

[Tom Kochtanek]

James and I and a few friends are planning on coming out. He will be in the 1967 Charger, I'm bringing the new '62 409 Belair :). A buddy picked up a nice Winnebago in Omaha (double dip!) and we hope to be out Friday nite or real early Saturday morning to get a pit side place for the RV and the cars :). When will you guys be there?

Sounds like this will be a lot of fun with Nostalgia racing at it's best!

Cheers,
TomK

[bubbletop1961]

Man I completely missed this. I forgot until just now, How did it go. Id like to have seen you guys.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Just got back from KCIR (Kansas City International Raceway). Took the new '62 BA 409 out for the first time. TomO showed up and gave me some support, but I was out after the first run on Sunday....

That said we had a great weekend, and I got a lot more experience with the "tree" and the new car :). I still suck badly, not ready for NSS quite yet, but am game for another try at it. Plans are to return later in October for more "test and tune" and to support TomO in his quest to nail the top spot in the VAMP series in his 1963 Chevy. Next we need to get Tom set up with a 409 for that car :).

I got to meet Don Garlits, my buddy James Schrader (some of you met him in Norwalk this past July) got to pit for Don when he fired up the Swap Rat (1965 hemi dragster), and I also met Arnie Beswick for the first time. See my note about Dyno Don's '62 BA which is now owned by Leland Ellerman of Salem, MO. That's the vehicle that has caused a bit of a ruckous in the legal circles with Don's daughter's thinly veiled plea for help in recovering the car that was never hers. (Please don't quarrel with me over this, talk to the new owner, I'm just passing the good news along. I know a number of you knew Don personally, so you may be aware of this drama as it has unfolded in recent months.)

What a good time we had in KC! We did Test 'n Tune Friday night, but there were sooo many Hondas and motorcycles (open track, twenty bucks buys in) that we only got two runs in from 7:00 - 10:00 PM. Saturday morning drew a huge crowd, probably due to Don Garlits, Arnie Beswick and other luminaries who graced us with their presence :). The line for Big Daddy was long and constant throughout the day. He did a run down the track in the dragster under the lights Saturday night, a real thrill for us old guys... They even bump started the dragster just like in the old days!

I got just a few runs in Satruday, as the track was down for 1-2 hours cleaning up an oil slick. Of course, I was stuck in the queue waiting for my turn when that happened, no turning back. We sat around and BS'd for a few hours, then took up where we left off.

Sunday was competition day and that was cut short by rain, which spit about much of the morning, then came down later in the afternoon. I was "one and done " anyway, but wanted to see more racing. They did a great job of promoting this event, and the turnout was fantastic. Wayyyyyyy to many Mopars, I was the only 409 car. Heck with the verbal garbage, I'll get on to the pics, that's what you really want to see. I've got some shots of a range of things, including TomO and myself and my Belair in action (or lack thereof..).

Enjoy!

TomK

[chevytaylor]

Just got back from KCIR (Kansas City International Raceway). Took the new '62 BA 409 out for the first time. TomO showed up and gave me some support, but I was out after the first run on Sunday....

That said we had a great weekend, and I got a lot more experience with the "tree" and the new car :). I still suck badly, not ready for NSS quite yet, but am game for another try at it. Plans are to return later in October for more "test and tune" and to support TomO in his quest to nail the top spot in the VAMP series in his 1963 Chevy. Next we need to get Tom set up with a 409 for that car :).

I got to meet Don Garlits, my buddy James Schrader (some of you met him in Norwalk this past July) got to pit for Don when he fired up the Swap Rat (1965 hemi dragster), and I also met Arnie Beswick for the first time. See my note about Dyno Don's '62 BA which is now owned by Leland Ellerman of Salem, MO. That's the vehicle that has caused a bit of a ruckous in the legal circles with Don's daughter's thinly veiled plea for help in recovering the car that was never hers. (Please don't quarrel with me over this, talk to the new owner, I'm just passing the good news along. I know a number of you knew Don personally, so you may be aware of this drama as it has unfolded in recent months.)

What a good time we had in KC! We did Test 'n Tune Friday night, but there were sooo many Hondas and motorcycles (open track, twenty bucks buys in) that we only got two runs in from 7:00 - 10:00 PM. Saturday morning drew a huge crowd, probably due to Don Garlits, Arnie Beswick and other luminaries who graced us with their presence :). The line for Big Daddy was long and constant throughout the day. He did a run down the track in the dragster under the lights Saturday night, a real thrill for us old guys... They even bump started the dragster just like in the old days!

I got just a few runs in Satruday, as the track was down for 1-2 hours cleaning up an oil slick. Of course, I was stuck in the queue waiting for my turn when that happened, no turning back. We sat around and BS'd for a few hours, then took up where we left off.

Sunday was competition day and that was cut short by rain, which spit about much of the morning, then came down later in the afternoon. I was "one and done " anyway, but wanted to see more racing. They did a great job of promoting this event, and the turnout was fantastic. Wayyyyyyy to many Mopars, I was the only 409 car. Heck with the verbal garbage, I'll get on to the pics, that's what you really want to see. I've got some shots of a range of things, including TomO and myself and my Belair in action (or lack thereof..).

Enjoy!

TomK


Hi Tom

How did your Belair run? :cool:

chevytaylor

[TomO]

All – It is very obvious to me that Tom K has the RACING BUG BIG TIME!!!! There are some big off season plans in store for the car and engine. NSS is the direction that is being discussed. I was lucky enough to see him make one pass and then the rain started in and shut down the event for good. For me it will be great to see how Tom’s racing plans unfold.

Tom K – Thanks to you and James from the lunch and adult beverages!!! I just killed me this weekend knowing that you guys were at the track just 5 miles away!! See you on the 27th!!

TomO

[Tom Kochtanek]

I often joke that "the biggest room in my house is room for improvement" and it certainly applies here. I had a devil of a time getting the BA to escape from its shadow, must be driver error :). Seriously, the times were slower than I had thought, but then we didn't do much prep other than fuss with the carbs and linkage, set the valves and check the fluids. Tires were stock street radials on 14" wheels. Grippage was not the issue here... she just didn't pull wildly like I thought she might...

Let's just say that Sunday morning I had dotted in "15.00"on the windshield next to my number for the Dial In. The best times I had done in test and tune (not much tuning went on, just four runs over two days) was 15.254 at 91.65 MPH. Sixty foot times were slow at 2.500. Here's one of my better runs:

R/T ... 113
60 ... 2.497
1/8 ... 9.860
1/4 ... 15.061
MPH ... 94.30

Unfortunately I was beaten in the first round by a 10 second car who zipped by me on that last stretch, even with a five second lead start. Gosh that hurt...

Rear is a 3.55 posi (I think). Tires were street radials, fourteen inch. 409 dual quad with 583 heads and Turbo350 three speed.

I set the valves at .018 (intake) and .024 (exhaust) and maybe that's a bit tight for this particular cam (which I have no specs on)?

Can't wait to to hear from you guys what to do next :) :) :).

Cheers!

TomK

[Ronnie Russell]

Tom, Very simple solution. Take the engine out of the Impala and switch it with the BA. Install 4.11 posi, drag race street radials. Much fun for next summer. :)

[Dick MacKenzie]

Can't wait to to hear from you guys what to do next :) :) :).

Cheers!

TomK

Tom,

First, I agree with Ronnie, You probably need more rear gear. What are the RPMs in the traps? Also, how is your suspension set up. I may have missed this but are you intending to do much driving on the street? If not you probably want to get the suspension fairly close to solid. It takes a lot of power to lift the front of the car and twist the rear housing.

[bubbletop1961]

Sound like you both are going to be at the 27th vamp race. Ill se about trying to get there. The car is still running so MAYBEE I can get it down there. There is a couple of things I need to do to it first. I guess I dont have any excuses.

[tripowerguy]

AW HA Tom K. That old bug jumped up and bit your behind.:rofl :rofl It will get worse because it is like dope you are always looking for that next high.:D I figure that by next year and 2 maxed out credit cards you'll be in the 12:00's with grease under your fingernails and a glazed look in your eyes. It took a while but if you stick around long enough it'll get you.:clap Roy

[Tom Kochtanek]

Roy and TomO, you are correct, I have a new problem, and it's the good kind (unless you are my lovely wife :)).

Ronnie and Dick, a direct swap would be much tooo easy, I've got to do something more challenging, or at least more complicated. I do take it for granted that the 460 cubic inch stroker 409 will get transplanted to some better-propelled vehicle, just not sure which one right now.

I think I'd like to get this one straightened out, and continue to assess what it offers with what I am just now beginning to understand what I want. I looked at F.A.S.T. and the Nostalgia Super Stock groups that run in the Midwest and both are possibilities. The "ST" in FAST is for "stock tires", and that's kinda interesting. But to go fast, N/SS is the route. Just gotta decide.

I guess I have to resolve myself that some poor car has to get cut up to do the rear correct (assuming N/SS) and then decide which one. James wants to do a 1961 bubbletop, and I've got two candidates, a Belair and an Impala. The Impala is the worse off and would be OK to do, and then my buddy would be happy (very important to me as well). He'll be spending a lot of time on it with me. Motivation is a key factor.

Also have a pretty crusty (IMHO) 1962 Belair 2 door sedan car on the premises. Bought it for the trim and the rear end. Good candidate for a modified car because it's already needing lots of structural and cosmetic repairs (rockers, quarters, pans, braces, trunk, etc.). Not sure I want to cut the "new acquisition" up, it's just too new to me for now. One long shot would be the 1962 BA sport coupe I've set aside from 4-5 years ago. Just a ton of corrosion, maybe perfect for a slighly tubbed car?

First things first. We're gonna continue sorting things out on the new '62 BA 409 post car, have some fun on October 27th celebrating TomO's emminent victory, and see where things go from there. Maybe we should have a Voting Contest to give TomK some direction for building a fun vehicle?

Dick or someone asked about "streetability" and since I've got that covered with the SS car, this new build can eventually be "single purpose". And we don't have a tach installed yet, so I have no data on shift points and RPM at the line, etc. Doing the rotations by hand we come up with about three-and-a-half turns to one, som probably a 3:55 posi, or whatever was in that area. Definitely not a 3:36 or a 3:73. Rear end is set up dead stock, with older shocks. 14" wheels and tires.

Here's my short list:

Fuss with the rear end -- gear ratio determination, then look into air bags, shocks, and wheel/tire combinations.

Look into exhaust. Tri-Y headers with no collectors running into four mufflers ending short of the rear axle

Check the throttle linkage and fuss with carbs.

Recheck valve settings. Do the normal plugs, fluids, etc. check

Get a tachometer hooked up to a newly slicked column.

Try to get into the 13s using the existing platform on October 26th-27th :) :) :)

Any other suggestions (short of putting the stroker in!).

Cheers,
TomK

[models916]

You can't drag race with a 3:55 gear and a heavy car. I run a 4:11 with 2800 stall on the street. If I was racing I would go to 4:56 or 4:88 with 30" or 32" tires.

[Dick MacKenzie]

When we were in school (million years ago :rofl )the first rule of hot street cars was "Gear it"! Most guys would put the big carb, new intake and headers on their engine and they would just die. Take a stock engine car and gear it and you'll beat the guy with stock gears and big carb every time. How much gear depends on how survivable the valve train is. :clap

Next - stiffen the rear.

[Ronnie Russell]

Tom, Rear suspension is a big factor in goin quick. First , I would check with the sanctioning bodies ( NSS ) and see what is allowed to rear suspension. I don't think tubs are allowed. I would be interested to know myself. Rear end ratio and suspension modifications would make a big improvement with what you already have. Good luck, lots of decisions to make. :)

[Dond409]

Tom,

Remember, I went 12.76 with a 3.55 rear gear. You need to get that car to transfer weight. Make sure the shocks are good. You want loose ones in the front and fairly tight ones in the back. Unless those mufflers are flowmasters loose all of them. Header collector extensions with those tri-y's. Fatride should chime in on those. Open up the valve lash on intakes .004. And lastly when you are staged getting ready to go, load the converter by leaving your foot on the brake and stepping on the gas, trying not to move the car until the light is on the last yellow. I hope this helps. This is some of the things I do with the wagon. Oh one more thing, Cool the car down between runs, go to the line as cool as you can get it.

[Dond409]

Tom,

I thought of something else. Tire pressures, The fronts should be up to 40 lbs. for less rolling resistance. The rears if they spin increase pressure in 2lb. increments. Don't exceed 40 lbs. You should notice you times increasing or decreasing. Remember also to only make one change at a time so you can tell if the change worked or not. Good luck

[dq409]

I wouldn`t worry about doing tubs.
You can get plenty of traction with a good set of tires on 81/2 inch rims. dq

[rstreet]

When we were in school (million years ago :rofl )the first rule of hot street cars was "Gear it"! Most guys would put the big carb, new intake and headers on their engine and they would just die. Take a stock engine car and gear it and you'll beat the guy with stock gears and big carb every time. How much gear depends on how survivable the valve train is. :clap

Next - stiffen the rear.
With the gear that is in your race car I believe you when you say "GEAR IT"
Robert

[Tom Kochtanek]

DonD:

Good set of recommendations. I rummaged around in the basement tonight and found a 4:56 ring and pinion and a set of 8 inch wheels but with the 14" diameter.

Was looking at a set of headers that had collectors and cutoffs, if those fit I might swap those out for the Tri-Y's. That way I can run 'em mufflered around the house and open when she's at the track.

Also found a good set of shocks and a candidate for a fourth link :).

I need to decide whether to go with 14" wheels or 15" wheels. Plans are to use drag radials, I suspect. What would you fellas do?

Best,
TomK

[Dond409]

Tom,

I wouldn't worry about 4.56 gears at this time. I would just do the basics, and see if the car responds to them. As far as drag radials, I have them on the wagon, but I don't really care for them. They don't seem any better then what I had on the car before. I can't seem to get a good burnout with them. They seem to want to hook in the water. I get to the line thinking they should sixty foot better and I get the same sixty foot as before. So, Tom I would just work on the basics. I know you want to go out and set the world on fire, but let's take smaller steps to get there. Ya dig!!!!

[chevytaylor]

Tom

I would run the lower gears, 15"wheel with 28x9 slick or 275/60 M/T drag radials.
Go with the tri-y headers open with extended collector length. Stiffen up right rear shock, disconnect front sway bar. Also try and get some fresh cold air to the carbs via some sort of ducting etc. :brow

I could go on and on but with a few tweeks low thirteens or high twelve's should be a reality. :beerbang

The most important thing is to have fun. Just my two cents. :D

chevytaylor

[wagon409]

First off, it was great to see the 62 sitting back in the staging lanes once again. It looked right at home. Sorry to hear the car didn't run as well as you may have hoped right out of the box, but tuning is half the fun and I'm sure you will get it in the 13's in no time.

I feel the launch is your biggest area for improvement. Like others have said, get the R's up on the brakes to get the engine up against the converter and your 60' should drop some. Having driven the car before, I have a feeling that will start you in the right direction.

As you and I have spoken before, the history of the engine is sketchy and I wonder if a new set of valve springs is in order as well. I had a car run 14's then high 12's after a simple spring change...in my case they were old and the valves were floating and the R's wouldn't increase like we thought they should. Springs is a pretty quick (couple hours) modification that would get rid of at least one question mark regarding the combination.

Any thoughts to throwing that 400HP intake on? I know you have one....and got it at a great price as well. :)

Good luck with the car and keep us updated.

Marc

[Tom Kochtanek]

Lots of good suggestions to consider. Don's "baby steps" makes sense, that way you can determine the impact of each change.

I'm getting more consistent on the launches, but as has been noted the 60 foot times are pretty slow. Plenty of room for improvement with the driver as well, and I don't have much experience with automatic trannys, so the comments will sit well :).

Marc, I did note that the springs had an aluminum retainer, not sure that's a good thing, so we may be looking into those springs after all. Got a set down the basement that I can substitute, but need to look into those retainers. I'm guessing aluminum is soft enough to be able to wear under duress?

I think I'm going to stick with the 2x4 setup for now. You would not believe how many folks came up to the car, both in the pits and while staging and asked me to open the hood just to get a peek at a 409! I met a lot of fellas who had stories from their past regarding the fabled "W". That's what it's all about! And I had a blast :) :) :).

After seeing all those 409 guys tear up Norwalk I now have a better respect for the preaprations and tickering that they do with their cars. As Marc mentioned, that is the fun part, to make a change and see where that leads. I just need to make more Test-n-Tune runs and get things evaluated. Wouldn't be any fun to go out with minimal prep and runs some great times now, would it?

Cheers!
TomK

[wagon409]

You would not believe how many folks came up to the car, both in the pits and while staging and asked me to open the hood just to get a peek at a 409! I met a lot of fellas who had stories from their past regarding the fabled "W". That's what it's all about! And I had a blast :) :) :).


That is the best part of an event like that, the people you visit with. Whenever we take the twin engine car to shows, I love to hear about people's stories and memories of the 60's.....its a blast!! All I have to do is stand there and listen to the great stories.

[dq409]

I`m getting great results with my Hoosier DOT slicks !!
They are as Don says though but thats not a problem.
28 # of air on the street and thay ride great and you can spin them if you want,lower to 12-15 # for the strip and it`s all traction !!!

The 2-4`s I would keep !!!

Change the springs and retainers, open the headers.
Play around with the tuning and you will see improvments.
Use race fuel and bump up the timing.

You also can heat up your converter just before racing to get it to stall higher.
It`s easy,, just power brake it a few times out back of the track and in the staging lanes til it`s good and hot.
Should give you 500 + stall,,,

Once you start to really have fun I`m sure you will go with deeper gears :brow

[bubbletop1961]

I have 26x11.5 m/t et streets on 7"x 15 " wheels. I am not using a 4th arm in the rear. 4:10 gears. my car will 60' in the 1.75 to 1.78 very consistantly. I am using a trans brake with a 3800 convertor. Might be a little more agressive than your set up. I am still tring to make that 27th race. I would like to meet you and get to see tomo again. If I make it your more tham welcome to check out anything in the car you want. Also those times are with no mini tubs and all suspesion is direct bolt in pieces that can be done to the car you have with not one cut of a saw.

[TomO]

TomK – I spent the first half of this week in Kentucky, so I had some time to ponder a suggestion for your project. Let’s cut the project into two parts: A) this season and B) next season. The two parts have totally different plans as I see it.

A) This Season – We do not have that much season left. You did out line some items that could possibly make the car go faster as is (carb linkage/timing/valve lash). Line those things out before your come back on the 27th and just run the car as is – it may not set the world on fire but it is not always the faster car that wins the race. You might throw on a tach. In total you have made maybe 10 passes. Concentrate on getting a feel for the process of racing starting with the burn out box thru the stripe. It sounds easy but I have learned there is SO much more to it then putting the pedal on the mat and hitting the brakes AFTER the stripe. Get comfortable with doing the burnout, lining your car up in the groove, positioning your car in the staging lights and reaction time. The placement of the car in the staging lights (roll out) and r/t wins a lot of races. I have a lot of work to do with my staging line placement of the car and have greatly improved r/t thru a portable Christmas tree box that is hooked to my master cylinder (I am foot braking). Most of all have fun the rest of this season.

B) Next Season – HOLY MOLY do you have some work to do if you follow thru with all of your plans. Figure out how fast you want to run and put together a drive train package that will on paper meet your wants. It is not much fun beating on the car to try it make run the magic number. Set it up so you can tune with weight per weather conditions and still run the magic number. You will then have the time to talk with the guys about that cool 2x4 409 under the hood!!!! I do not know if you intend on racing VAMP next year but you could set the car up to run in one of the classes. Suspension will be a challenge as several have already mentioned but you have options that range from mild to wild. I run stock upper and lower boxed rear control arms with poly bushings, stock shocks, airbags in the rear springs. Stock springs and shocks up front with the sway bar attached. BFG g-force drag radial on 14x6 steel wheels. The drag radial has helped to make my car consistent thru the 60’. Drag radials and drag slicks can be driven on the street, it just depends how legal you want to be. How about a cowl fed cold air box for the BA – like the Z-11? I just cannot bring myself to cut the fire wall on my car but dang I want the cowl fed cold air Z-11 style set up. Big choices have to be made for the rear diff, but again you have choices to run modified stock or the popular alternative. If you plan to run an automatic trans the correct converter for your set up and a Transbrake is a must. Weather stations win or loose races also and I have found weather info invaluable this season. Log book is also invaluable as it gives the driver confidence to drive to the stripe if running in a series with breakouts, due to the fact that you can look back on history. History is the best teacher or so I have been told.

All of the next season stuff is not as easy as it sounds but you can make it happen because you have the DRAG RAGING BUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:beerbang

TomO

[Dond409]

TomO,

All good stuff. I couldn't of said it better myself. Especially the learning how to stage and drive the strip. Experience is the best teacher. Hanging around a very experienced racer helps too. One thing I always do is get the little things that need attention to the car before going to the track. Save track time for tuning changes. I hate wrenching on stuff that was better done before you got to the track.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Boy, do I benefit from having all you experienced drag racers chime in an offer advise! Funny that I didn't start having this "problem" until I was over 55. Most problems at that age aren't usually this much fun!

So I'd say my "rookie year" was a good start, and now I get to refine my technique, the vehicle, and my aspirations all at the same time. And just before the Winter months, when I have the most time on my hands...

Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions. Sat around at the Shop the other night with several of the guys who were at KCIR over the past weekend. Had the '62 up on the lift, we were all milling about noting things that could be attended to at some future date, depending on the direction we went. I am thinking along the lines of N/SS, now that I know you don't really have to cut a car up to play in that sandbox :). That brings a whole host of possibilities in terms of vehicles already in my possession, including the '62 BA two door sedan. I like the "sleeper" look of the post car almost as much as I like the roofline of a Sport Coupe :).

A few more meetings like this one and we'll have a better picture of what lies ahead. Nothing too radical, I can tell you that. But it will involve the stroker engine that currently resides in the SS car :). And it looks like it will be an automatic, a big switch for me. More later as things develop!

Cheers!

TomK

[wagon409]

Sounds like you have a good idea of what you want to accomplish and have a good direction planned.

We raced two super comp cars in the 90's with automatics and transbrakes and I think that is a great plan although I realize sticks have some plusses as well. A transbrake is an amazing deal if you ask me. It is neat how they work.

I will second the comment about getting good weather readings and such. We prefered to take an air density reading rather than separate temp/humidity/bar pressure readings...worked really well. A good density guage is about $100. We got to where we could unload and be within a couple hundredths first pass if the track was in good shape. I also have some great graphing/charting sheets that can help show where your passes differ from one to the next. Personally, the enjoyment came from dialing the car in to the different conditions and using mathematics to predict the changes the car needs and the resulting ET.

Good luck and we are hoping you use the recent purchase as your platform of choice.....it would be fun to follow.

If you have any questions about putting a late-great through the quarter, give Dan a call. They ran a 1960 biscayne in the mid-60's and ran in the low 11's or high 10's. Solid times for a heavy car with the tires of the day.