Dyno time

[Ronnie Russell]

7 months ago , Tom Monroe ( Toms63SSQB ) asked me to build him a 481 street motor. I agreed. Went to the dyno 2 days ago for a spur of the moment session. Grabbed the $60 Asian dist. and an old set of plug wires, loaded up and went on the trip. Much time was wasted due to erractic dyno timing light readings. It was determined the old plug wires were too old. My mistake for showing up without being prepared. My first trip to the dyno and probably my last. I would have preferred to use the light myself, but the crew did that. Before assembly , Tom expressed concerns about over-camming engine and not being able to drive on the street. This was to be a street motor. I am guilty of under-camming this engine. .630=.650 lift with 110 deg lobe cts. but with puny .246-.252 @.050 duration. The valve simply dont stay open long enough for good power. But purrs like a little kitty cat at 800 rpm idle. 17 hg vacuum. Headers used were some little 1 3/4 shorties oringinally welded up for the Chevy II when we first built it 12 yrs. ago. Too small diamiter and too short. I think most will agree that some 1 7/8 Stahls that Tom intends to use will be worth 20 additional hp. Tom is in the midst of building a new 62 Impala. With an honest 525 hp available , this will allow him to get comfortable with the new car for the rest of this year.The big torque numbers should be a blast on the street. Tom has plans for 3 sp auto with 3.90 Ford rear gear, and 3,000 rpm converter. New characteristics to get used to,, chassis, handleing, shifter, etc. If Tom should choose to focus on drag racing in 2009, a simple cam and valve spring change would result in gobs of addtional hp. .670 lift and 260 deg @ .050 with 108 dg LSA sounds good to me but will get more input when the time comes. And then there is the stock #881 intake manifold. We all know that is junk. Maybe this is the year for a better manifold. The Bob Walla heads performed great, but of course were never tested on this engine. Again, not enough cam to take advantage of the heads. But the heads are there and ready for a cam change someday. 508 hp ( 525 with new headers ) dont sound like much for this engine, but it is a docile tame 525hp that can be driven anywhere and has much potential for the future. One thing I am sure of and had to sure of,, was that this engine be 100% healthy for its 1,200 mile trip to its new home. After draining the oil and removing the filter cartridge, and even using a magnifing glass on the filter element, I am confident this engine is ready to deliver years of service. Thanks to buildit for his valuable input. Thanks to Jack Gibbs for his help solving the cam road block with Comp Cams, and thanks to Barry Taylor for setting the session up and spending 14 hrs hauling me and the engine around. I have some close friends who are aware of the many problems I ran into and had to address during this build. They all know how happy I am that this ordeal is ove with and the end result was good,,, at least in my opinion. Feel free to critique at will, comments will not cause offense. I am so happy this is over with, you simply cant hurt my feelings. I will now dust off the golf clubs and oil the rod and reels for Spring. I dont want to argue with machine shops and parts vendors for a long time.

[gearhead409]

Ronnie, that baby really looks good and the print out looks good too! Tom will be proud of it. ( an old wrench man told me along time ago the bigger the engine the bigger the cam can be and still be streetable) the old man was right.

[jim_ss409]

Way To Go!!!
That engine is perfect if you ask me.:deal 500hp with shorty headers is impressive enough but the torque is outstanding! And it's going to go up even more with long tube headers. The only problem Tom's going to have is going to be driveline and tire related.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Don't seem bad to me, Ronnie:dunno
Look how the horsepower hangs around 500, for over 1000 RPM:deal
The torque is brutal !... 90 ft lbs more than my engine:grumble: ;)

[gearhead409]

Ronnie, the cyl. temps. really shows the need for a better manifold.

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks guys, Loren, dyno man said #7 needs a hotter plug. I have no experience in this area , so I guess Tom can use a hotter plug there. Reason for using the little headers was ,, we had them,, they would never be used for anything in the future, so why not drill and weld in the temp. sensor probe holes.A logical idea,, but they are just too small diamiter and too short. Oh well, the best laid plans ??? A better intake??? Oh yeah !!!! That would be a huge benefit. The #881 that is on the engine is pure stock. The ports are larger than the ports in Bob's heads, so no need to port match. Looking at the intake runner for #7 on a #881 it is easy to see why reading was different. Maybe the new Edelbrock will have some improvement. Hope so. Thanks again for the positive comments, I know it would be easy to ask, " why the low hp " ? One thing I could add. I sleep at night knowing I did the very best I could. What it is, is what it is.

[Brian Thompson]

I can attest to Ronnie's many frustrations during the build of this engine!!! It definitely was a beast that was tamed. The only way I can describe it is I thought Ronnie was a rodeo Bull rider for a while there! :rofl

I am glad to see that it turned out so well Ronnie, just don't get too used to Golfing and Fishing. We will need to build my some time this year! :rofl

Congratulations Ronnie and Tom!!! :cheers :cheers :cheers

[petepedlar]

Pretty awesume engine Ronnie.......... :bow :bow :clap :clap

.............. wan'na build mine ???

Dave

[W Head]

Great work Ronnie, so that is the reason you have not been on this site very much lately!

W Head

59 El Camino 348-3,2s
59 Impala 409-2,4s

[Ronnie Russell]

Correct Wayne. And if parts had bounced off the dyno room wall, you would have never heard from me again... :rofl :rofl

[Skip FIx]

Ronnie, my current pump gas 455 Pontiac motor made only 525 hp on a conservative dyno and with a tighter 10" Continental convertor goes almost as fast as the old "race" motor did 10.99@124!

For torquey motors like that and Pontiac he should give Chris a call at Continental.

There are always bugs to work out for sure. One guy I use for dynoing is a smal shop without alot going on so we can leave the motor on for a couple of days to chase parts. Down side it's not a computer one so it has a hand brake and that can vary the results a little as he loads it.

Say Hi to Barry for me. Let me know if you all get that race car down this way.

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks for the input Skip. Maybe you, Loren , Aubrey and others can comment on this one. I think it important to learn from mistakes. A couple of months ago I asked my machinist about carb spacers. He said, " spacers make hp". I said, " Thats good enough for me". In retrospect, he was talking about getting the most out of a race engine, not an engine with small cam and bad intake manifold design. I ordered and used a pair of 2 in. 4 hole spacers. After the final pull, and with crew disconnecting engine, dyno man said, " you know you could have made more hp without those spacers ? ( something about vacuum signal ) " Gee, it would have been nice if he had said that an hour earlier !! Would have taken only minutes to ditch them . After all, thats what a dyno is for. My inexperience with the dyno experience,,, my lack of preperation,, my mistake. I have already advised Tom that we will not be using them until he changes cam at a later date,,, but by then a good intake manifold may be available and they wont be needed anyway. We have several members that have dyno time scheduled within the next few months so I'me sure they will be more prepared. Make a list.

[MRHP]

An engine that has a large peak in hp or torque will not perform well on the street. A nice broad hp and torque curve is the nuts. I think you nailed an awesome combo! :cheers

[hogmotors]

Ronnie,
If that's your garage, take heart! Mine looks A LOT worse inside!!

[Ronnie Russell]

Gordon, Guilty as charged. Winter time , everything gets jumbled together. Never enough room. I am usually neater than that. :doh

[skipxt4]

Fine job, Ronnie.:clap Not your fault you were saddled with a mild cam and crappy intake. You're still making serious H.P. and torque.:deal :clap Skip:)

[Tom Kochtanek]

Congratulations to both Ronnie and to Tom for your collective patience and perseverance in the building of what looks to be a great start for Tom's 2009 racing season :) :) :).

We who have gone through similar barriers all appreciate the sharing of both frustration and success. Maybe that's why I didn't stick mine on a dyno a few years back. I just fired it up, broke in the cam, and headed for North Carolina to break the engine in over the next 2000 miles :).

Always wanted to know what my dyno results might have been, but I'm too cheap to lease the shop for the day :).

Gosh, it seems like just yesterday that we were all together talking about this potential build in Norwalk! Now that it's become a reality, I can't wait to hear from Tom how the vehicle is coming along. Hopefully we'll see them come together later this summer in time for Norwalk?

Cheers to both the builder and to the new owner!

TomK (with much envy!)

[jim_ss409]

I'm totally impressed with the flat power band of that engine. I think it's going to be really powerful both on the street and on the track.:beerbang :beerbang
A few years ago I talked to Curt Harvey about carb spacers for the stock manifold. He said he had tried a bunch of different combinations and the best was a 1" open spacer. He said he'd also tried a 2" open spacer and it was no better. I can't remember what he said about 4 hole spacers but I'm sure he said he'd tried them. He said the open spacer boosted top end power and helped to even out the exhaust temperatures. It would be interesting to try stagger jetting to see if that would help even out the exhaust temperatures.
I think open spacers are a good idea on a stroker motor like this one but there's no free lunch. The idle vacuum will drop and you'll probably give up a little low end torque. On a really mild stock stroke 409 the throttle response might also suffer.

[Toms63SSQB]

I am really happy for Ronnie and I can't thank him enough for what I am sure is going to be a really strong 409 stroker. I probably don't know all of the problems he ran into, but , I sure heard about a few of them, The cam, the carbs, finally getting the last one from Summit. Again Ronnie as I told you last night, THANK YOU. The car this motor is going into is a 62 Impala with a F**d 9" posi with 3:90 gears. I have been talking to Jerry and he has really helped a lot with the suspension. Moroso Trick drag springs up front with Lakewood 90/10 front shocks, Stahl 1 7/8" headers into I don't know yet whose mufflers with the exhaust exiting in front of the rear wheels. The transmission is going to be a TCI Super StreetFighterTurbo 350 tricked out with a specially hardened input shaft and a 36 element sprag assembly, The tech at TCI felt like that would be more than enough transmission along with a 10"/3000 rpm matching stall converter. Remember I do want to run this car on the street. I put Moog 6033 springs on the rear with Comp Engineering 3 way adjustable shocks, adjustable panhard bar and UMI lower control arms and adjustable upper control arms. The driveshaft is going to be Inland Empire. The car will be painted Roman red with all black interior, Hurst quarter stick for shifter. I hope to have it ready for some summer time drag racing at Norwalk. My next big thing is taking a mini vacation to Texas to pick up the motor. I also have some news on the Blue Suede Cruise coming up in September. I will post that tomorrow. Again Ronnie Thank You.

[chevytaylor]

Sounds like an awesome engine / chassis combo :beerbang

Well done guys :cheers

[gearhead409]

let me take a shot at this. with a cam with alot of overlap, the intake pulse will be high do to the pistons pushing burnt gas back into the manifold. moving the carbs up with spacers gets them away from the pulse some what and will give a smoother vacuum signal. my guess, your dyno man saw the high vacunm reading at idle and knowing the pulse in the manifold would be low thought the engine might make more power without the spacers. maybe, i don't know but it would have been nice to have made a pull without them.

[Quickshift409]

Tom your combination sounds great. I ran it through the DragSim program using the info you posted. If you launch at 2500 and shift at 6000 it shows a 11.51 ET at 119 MPH. I only have dreams about runnng that strong. Blessed is the man from Texas. Tom don't run any faster or you will be puting in a roll bar. Hope to see you at Norwalk.

[Skip FIx]

Tom I have a mess of convertors, please call Chris, MUCH better than one of TCIs generics, had one of those even a semi specific part #.

As far as spacers. They are really more specific to each individual motor. My Pontiac(yes I know not a W) RAIV 400 topped with a 72 HO intake and a 73 455 SD replacement carb picked up 8 HP with a 1/2" 4 hole(all that would fit with teh shaker scoop). We used the same spacer on a friends 72 455 HO Pontiac -lower compression motor. Same casting intake same SD model carb and lost HP! So go figure. Sounds like a job for track tuning to me.

[Skip FIx]

Tom, Sounds like a neat car. My first 64 409 was red, black vinyl top and silver interior. My project 64 is blue though.

I think for street you really aren't going to like the front spring/shock combo especially the first time you roll into a turn with any speed!

Mufflers I've been very impressed with my Welded Ultraflows for quiet and power.

[skipxt4]

Lakewood 90/10 front shocks are definately not meant for the street.:eek:

[Skip FIx]

heck I drove the old Hurst Dual Duty shocks on the 80/20 setting on my 64 and especially without the front sway bar it was scarey in a turn,it had 6 cylinde Chevelle front springs not too far off the Moroso springs(same spring the Truppi-Kling BB CHevelle stocker used).

[Toms63SSQB]

You are probably right about the 90/10s on the front and driving it on the street. I will probably give it it a try anyway, if its too loose I'll get some stock shocks and then change them out for the strip, not a big deal. One question i do have, does anybody have any suggestions for rear drag tires on this setup? If I understand some past posts radials perform well with automatic transmissions versus a non radial tire. I kinda liked the Hoosier slicks that Bill and Dan linington had on their 62 at the BSC last year, I'll probably need a little wider tire. Thanks for all the positive statements about the motor and setup. Now all I have to do is match Ronnies .004 RT from last year.

[b-d409]

Ronnie and Tom,

Ronnie, the motor looks awesome, and the dyno results are great in my opinion. What more can I say? Just too cool! Congratulations to both of you on completion of the engine. All my best wishes in the upcoming racing seasons Tom. Just don't beat me too bad next time we race.:bow

Dan

[chevytaylor]

You are probably right about the 90/10s on the front and driving it on the street. I will probably give it it a try anyway, if its too loose I'll get some stock shocks and then change them out for the strip, not a big deal. One question i do have, does anybody have any suggestions for rear drag tires on this setup? If I understand some past posts radials perform well with automatic transmissions versus a non radial tire. I kinda liked the Hoosier slicks that Bill and Dan linington had on their 62 at the BSC last year, I'll probably need a little wider tire. Thanks for all the positive statements about the motor and setup. Now all I have to do is match Ronnies .004 RT from last year.

Tom, have you concidered an "incar" adjustable front shock? For example, I run a set of QA1 double adjustables all round and have had great results on the street and at the track. I drive to and from the strip and just dial in the shocks to suit. If I'm going on a long cruise or a weekend away I just dail in the shocks to enhance ride and cornering capabilities. If I'm at the drags I just dail them in to suit. You can adjust the compression and rebound to basically any setting you like. Other companies are now manufacturing the same thing, Strange is one outfit that comes to mind. I know these shocks are pretty pricey but I found them to be a huge benefit not having to run two different sets of shocks for street and strip.

The drag radials are a great idea and work very well for me. They bite real good now that I'm running a stout turbo 400. I couldn't hook them up with the stick. I suppose the most practical thing about them is that you can drive to the strip and be basically ready to go racing. I don't mean to ramble on. This is just my experience and opinion, I'm sure other members can offer more input. :cheers

Carl

[Toms63SSQB]

Carl,
I did consider 'incar' adjustable shocks, they are a little pricey for me right now. I will probably run what i bought this year and look at somehing like the QA1 next year. Actually my Social security checks:) starts the first of August, so maybe sooner. Carl, whose drag radials are you using and what size are they?

[chevytaylor]

Tom, at the drags on the rear I run 15 x 8 aluminum Radir wheels with M/T 275 60 drag radials.
All the best for your up and coming race season. :beerbang

Carl

[Charlie @ The Race Shop]

Sounds like you had a hell of a time with the dyno shop. Just to let everyone know that has read this thread that not all dyno experiences have to be bad. Here at The Race Shop we employ a DTS dyno that is very quick to set up for the " one off" engines. We also have headers for some pretty obscure engines.(even 409s. 1 1/8 long tubes) We have 52 channels of data that we collect including EGTs, BSFC, two channel wide band O2. Our goal is to make your project as pain free as possible when you venture of into the unknown. If we can answer any questions, please free free to give us a call.

By the way, Looks like a great street pounder. ;)

Thanks

[impalamike.com]

How do you fellows think a M/T Crossram or Lamar Walden intake would effect the dyno numbers?

[hogmotors]

Hummm....
Sounds like fun!!

My $.0002(WELL, AQCTUALLY what I found about the Radials and heavy cars....I know, mines DEFINITELY NOT a street car but this last time when I was replacing slicks, I was all set to buy the radials caquse a couple of Camaro friends & some kind of whatever is above "super Gas" friends swear BY the radials. I decided to talk to some of my old friends in NMCA that are running heavy cars(FASTER than mine)....all of them had tried the radials & were back on regular slicks for one reason or another & none was because they were slower on what they're on now.

SO....I'm on the almost same soft compound 9x30x15 M&H but now the stiff sidewall.
For what that's worth!

When I had to run "DOT" tires, I ran the M&H's because all of the Buich Toubo guys ran them-they worked great & still do evidently. Lots of guys run Mickeys too.

[region rat]

Gordon. I haven't heard first hand on radials on heavy cars. I was told radials were best with automatics. I was also advised to run the hard compound with a stick and a heavy car. Mine was never big on horse power compared to what's built now but the car would go 1.46 @ 60 ft.with old hard M&H's. Soft Mickeys cost me a tenth @ 60 ft. . Bob

[Skip FIx]

I run radial slicks on my 3750 lb TA as I needed a taller tire for the gears but needed something that would not grow like a bias slick for fender clearance,and yes I could have just changed gears but I needed fresh slicks anyway. I run the "short" 30x9x15 Hoosiers.

They have 60 ft'd as good as my previous bias slicks but do not like a poorly prepped track , where the bias would have worked a little better. The burnouts feel a little different too and they chirp like a street tire when they hook. But they grow very little, they hook with 18-22 psi so there is no big end wiggle with low pressure like many run with bias slicks.


From what I hear from the guys running FAST in the DOT tire classes the M/T is about the best. The 275-60-15 is hard to come by right now too. They are burnout sensitive and often require only a short one.