Whats wrong with this picture?

[models916]

This is from Hank'sZ11 page. Just looking around today and notices this picture titled Chevrolets first 427. If it is a 63 Z11, why does it have heater hoses? I thought all the 63 Z11 were heater delete. If it is a 62 with the high port heads and induction, it's not a 427 just a 409 with heads and induction and not a Z11 at all. Anybody know this guy? Am I missing something. Let's hear some opinions. I would think this guy would have the real scoop on the Z11, I don't get the picture or statment. Go to info page

http://www.hanksz11page.com/

http://www.angelfire.com/ia/chevysupersport/Z11.html

[oil4kids]

I would not bet the farm on that car or statement

The first Z11 or high port head 427 may have been a 62 car called Black Thunder out of Jim Rathman Chevrolet, which started out as a 409 and was shipped parts and the first special cam, not ground by chevy. Jim had the best contacts at Chevy. I spoke with the owner and hes pretty confident he had the first set of heads. Dont hold me to these statements.

We know for sure that Dick Harrells Black 62 Z11 was shipped as a original 09 with aluminum parts shipped later by truck to his shop

The first real Z11(63) i would believe was a Bill Jenkins car.

The first z11 427 may have had heater hoses because it was a production 409 first then modified

[NASCAR FAN]

Is it known for sure that all Z11s were automatically built without a heater?

The answer may be--- unless a Z11 was ordered with the heater delete option (RPO C48), they were factory built with a heater. ???

The first factory built 1963 Z11 delivered to an individual is claimed to be Dave Strickler's "Old Reliable IV" car.

Rick

[models916]

The article says all Z11 Impalas were Heater-Radio delete. The picture looks to be a 62 with a heater. Were the racers of the day changing the crank on the 1962 409 with the heads and intake and cam?

[NASCAR FAN]

models916:

"The article says all Z11 Impalas were Heater-Radio delete."

There is no such thing as a 1963 Chevrolet Impala with a radio delete. Unlike the heater, which was standard equipment and could be deleted with RPO code # C48 when the car was ordered, the radio was an extra cost option. Therefore a '63 Chevrolet that left the factory without a radio was simply not ordered with the optional radio----no delete was available or necessary.

Going back to the Hanks page article-----If you click on the side bar: Z-11 INFO---then scroll down to the CHASSIS SECTION, the article says----"and were available with or without a heater". What this means is---if the Z11 was ordered without checking the RPO C48 heater delete code on the new car order form---it was factory built with a heater.

1962 was the first year the full-size Chevrolet came standard with a heater.

I don't know if the photo is a '62 or '63 but the car does have an alternator.

This is the car (see below) that prompted NASCAR and NHRA to place a 7 litre/427 cubic inch limit on engine size for the 1963 racing season. Chevrolet decided to take advantge of the new 427 rule limit and increased their '63 racing engines (both the Mk I and the Mk II) from 409 cubic inches to 427 cubic inches.

http://www.62ford.com/registry/images/starlift2.jpg

http://www.62ford.com/registry/images/starlift3.jpg

The 1962 Ford in the photos and article that set the new records in Oct. '62 with the 483 engine was the same car with a 406 engine that won the June 10th 1962 NASCAR race at Atlanta International Raceway. The '62 convertble had a unique removable fiberglass "Starlift" top which NASCAR "outlawed" for future races after the Atlanta race. Notice the filler panels in the side window openings.

Rick

[Speed]

The Ammon R. Smith owned , driven by Dave Strickler, tuned by Bill Jenkins was put together in York..by Bill/Dave & others ( components from Chev)

Hank's car is the real deal......
some had heaters , some didn't.....
All..( that hauled a s s ), had either removed them or they came without. ( back in the day)

[NASCAR FAN]

The Ammon R. Smith owned , driven by Dave Strickler, tuned by Bill Jenkins was put together in York..by Bill/Dave & others ( components from Chev)Hank's car is the real deal......some had heaters , some didn't.....All..( that hauled a s s ), had either removed them or they came without. ( back in the day)
I have heard both---The Old Reliable IV was a factory built Z11 or it was built by Strickler/Jenkins, etc. That is why I said "claimed to be" in my earlier post. I don't really have an opinion---too many conflicting stories----all hearsay info with no actual proof or documentation one way or the other.

It's the same deal with the Strickler '61 409 car. Some, including Bill Jenkins,have claimed it was a factory built 409 car. Others claim it was originally a 348 car. I have no opinion on that car either. What other people believe is their own business.

Rick

[Speed]

you are right
what people want to believe is their perrogative.

[oil4kids]

this is off the web by Larry Davis, not written by me


In December 1962, Chevrolet built 25 Z-11 Impala coupes. All 25 were spoken for and very few of the original 25 went to California. Each dealership that qualified (and that is the key word--qualified) was allotted one car. And you had to have an SCCA license to drive it. Don't ask me why SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) because I never found out. Anyway, there never were 500 of them built. As I said, the December batch was 25, the February batch was 25, and the final batch was an additional 7 cars. All the cars were spoken for before they were even built.
The big name drivers got the first batch - Proffitt, Leal, Sturm, Prince, and Lenke in California, Frank Sanders in AZ, Harrell in NM, and Milner in WA. There were probably others but I don't have the list of dealer/drivers in front of me. Strickler got #1, Nicholson got #2 of the first batch. Hubert Platt's Georgia Shaker was #1 of the second batch, I think. I have the full list around here someplace. Itâ's interesting.
Many of you are unaware that all those Chevrolet aluminum intakes were made in my home town at Winters Fondry. Look on any of them and you'll see the Winters "snowflake" logo. There was a lot of experimentation done by the speed shops back then, much of it was one off stuff. If it worked, it got some type of part number. If not, or if they could improve on it, then it became a 'one-off' piece--S/S Larry

I won't argue with you about the '61 dipstick. It was the same as a 348 motor, I think. I'll have to check on that. But, I will argue with you about the other two. In ‘63, the factory built Z-11 cars (the 427 cars) had the air induction system come off the firewall through the air inlet in front of thewindshield. The 7 cars 'built' as Z-11s in ‘62 did not have that part. But the intake and carb bodies were the same.
I know about the ‘63 cars as I have talked at length with Grumpy,Dyno Don, and Ed Schartman about those cars. Ed's Jackshaw car was built from spare parts, i.e. over the counter stuff, and he specifically mentioned that the way you knew about it being a "built" car, was that the air plenum was missing from the firewall.
Most of guys played around with various ways of getting air to the carbs on those cars. Dyno and Platt, Schartman, Sox, and Durham had hood mounted scoops and/or tubes from the outer headlights to get air into the carbs. Grumpy and Strickler stayed with the factory setup throughout the career of the car. Only one that did I think.
Anyway, I know a bit about 409/427s.
I hate to throw a wrench into this, but there simply was no such thing as an "RPO Z-11" with a 409 engine. 57 cars were built between December 1962 and April 1963, in batches of 25, 25, and 7. All were identical in every way, except trim and thickness of aluminum--i.e. standard 63 Impala 2 door hardtops with bench seat, aluminum front end and other parts, and special high performance 427 c.i. engines rated at 430 horsepower.
They all had the special cowl induction air intakes, originally designed for the Chevrolet Nascar teams, that came off the firewall just above the heater delete panel. However, many of the teams like Dyno Don's Nalley Chevrolet team, changed to either a hood scoop or plumbing from the outer headlights.
There were several cars "built" from parts including the Eddie Schartman Jackshaw Chevrolet car. Schartman began with a standard 63 Impala coupe, ordered the aluminum parts and 427 Z-11 engine, put it together then towed it down to Nicholson's Nalley shop and Don tuned it. It did NOT have the cowl induction plenum.
The true 63 Z-11 intakes were a high-rise, two-piece affair, mounting dual AFBs. It was the second GM engine to have a "tunnel ram" intake, the first being the 421 Pontiac under the hoods of the A/FX Tempests and 'Swiss cheese' Catalinas. The intake in the AMT Proffitt 409 is the Z-11 intake. Compare it with the stock intake, or look at the photos on pages 39 and 66 in my book.
The first cars had aluminum parts stamped from 26 gauge aluminum--very thin. After the first 50 cars, replacement parts were stamped from 40 gauge aluminum, since the 26 gauge stuff bent almost by the wind at those 130 mph runs. Look at almost any photo of a Z-11 in or after Spring 63--fenders wrinkled, bumpers twisted.
(Wish I knew how to replicate that wrinkling!!)
Anyway, "RPO Z-11" was specific in that included the Z-11 427 engine. This is, by the way, not the so-called "Mystery Motor" that ran so well on the Nascar tracks. That was an early version of the 396-427 big block Chevrolet.
One of the things that stumped me about your dad's car was the 36 gallon gas tank. But when I looked in the file, there were two cars, #47 and #49 on the production run, which went to dealerships in Colorado to run at Pikes Peak in ‘63. Those cars were probably fitted (maybe even ordered) with a 36 gallon tank. But, they had all the other RPO Z-11 equipment, including the 427 engine and air induction off the firewall--S/S Larry

Ken Andrus added the following:
Larry, I think where the confusion lies is in the look of the engine. The 427 Z11 engine looked on the outside almost identical to the 409 as you know. I think the more widely known 427 based on the "Rat" motor design is where the confusion is. That motor was only run in ’63 (if I'm not mistaken) by Junior Johnson in his NASCAR Impalas. Production on those didn't start ‘til ‘65, again, as you well know. The 63 Z11 427 looked basically like a 409.

Ken and guys. This will clear up a lot of things on two subjects. I just got off the hook with Bill Stiles and he said, "There was no such thing as a 63 Z-11 without the 427 motor." As many of you know, Bill was a member of the Dave Strickler/Bill Jenkins team from 61 thru 67. Bill then got his own car, a ‘68 Hemi ‘Cuda. Bill also said that everything Grumpy built was painted black for heat dissipation. Again, Bill Stiles worked for and with Bill Jenkins from the beginning--S/S Larry

The SS was a trim package, i.e. bucket seats, special side trim and emblems, and different interior trim. You could order any engine with the SS trim package. There was an SS hardtop with the 409/425 hp package. It was reasonably rare, maybe 2500 were built like that. Same goes for the chrome goodies on the engine. That was an engine trim package, I'd have to look up the RPO number now. Again, you could order that on any 409 engine in ‘63, from 340 hp. thru 425 hp. in any body style from Biscayne to Impala SS convertible--except the RPO Z-11engine. That only came one way; painted orange, no frills, no chrome goodies. It didn't need any. Most of the teams cut big holes in the valve covers for breathers, and 90% of the teams threw away the ducted air cleaner, preferring a hood scoop ala Dyno Don, Ronnie Sox, and Malcolm Durham, or going to the headlight ducts with flex tubing like the Thunderbolts had. Now, there is a rare bird, a 63 SS convertible with the 409/425 horse engine. They only built a few (maybe 300-400) of those--S/S Larry

[oil4kids]

heres a link to significant amount of S/S F/X and 409/Z11 photos


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247089

[NASCAR FAN]

I found the Larry Davis info interesting about the two Z11s built or converted with 36 gal. fuel tanks for the '63 Pikes Peak Auto Hill Climb event. If the Z11s were actually entered at Pikes Peak they got out-run by a '63 Mercury (Parnelli Jones) in 1st place, a '63 Ford (Curtis Turner) in 2nd place, and a '63 Plymouth (Frank Sanborn) in 3rd place.

The info about the 409 "chrome goodies" being a separate option on '63 409s ("you could order that on any 409 engine in '63") is not true or the writer is unclear in what he is saying. The engine chrome trim pkg was standard on '63 409s.

Rick

[walkerheaders]

there's plenty more inconsistencys in that story as well. the tonowanda records clearly show 50 Z11 units built for 63 and some built later. but this is from memory and i really was'nt there.

[NASCAR FAN]

A. Colvin talks about the '63 Z11 production numbers in his book CHEVROLET by the NUMBERS. I'm also going by memory (my book is at my other home) but I believe he claims 50 is the correct number of actual cars built. The additional 7 relates to extra engines, parts, etc.

Rick

[oil4kids]

Richard

that maybe true about the 1963 pikes peak but the 1967 SS427 Imapalas kicked butt with I think Bobby Unser at the wheel and took no prisoners I think an Olds was second

[NASCAR FAN]

Mark:

1967 Pikes Peak stock class results

1 Bill Daniels 1967- Chevrolet 14:56.0
2 Frank Peterson - Olds Toronado 15:02.0
3 Woody Walcher - Plymouth 15:14.7

Bill Daniels may have "kicked butt" in 1967 with a time of 14:56.0, however he was slower than the 1st - 3rd place times of 1963.--- P. Jones time was 14:17.4, C. Turner was 14:20.3 and Frank Sanborn was 14:30.3 in 3rd place. In fact Curtis Turner was quicker in 1962 driving a '62 Ford with a winning time of 14:52.5. than Daniels was in 1967 with a 14:56.0. So Mark, this is why I'm not sure if you were intending to make a point---if you were, what your point is.

Bill Daniels came in 2nd in 1969 with a 1969 Chevrolet with a 14:10.47 but Bobby Unser came in 1st with a time of 13:40.05 (new record) in a '69 Ford Torino.

Strange--- stock class cars were not included in the Hill Climb after 1934 (no event in 1935 and '42-'45) thru 1955.

In my opinion the drivers were a greater factory in winning than the cars. The Unsers, Sanborns, Curtis Turner, Parnelli Jones and a few others driving a 6-cyl Chevy II could beat many of the other drivers.

My source of info: A history of the Pikes Peak Auto Hill Climb: Pikes Peak is Unser Mountain--- by Stanley L DeGeer. the book is now out of print but available from the used market such as Amazon and Abebooks.com.

Rick

[Speed]

57 ...Z-11's

God I'm glad I was there......( in '63)


Not arguing with anyone.......

Larry Davis has it right.....
Rusty Symmes work on documenting facts is great too. ( a Ton of work on this..Z-11's)


BTW/ in Feb of '63 I was in Fox's shop in Daytona...saw the new style ( today's BBC..AKA / the mystery engine)....Just before speedweeks

Also saw lots of Bikini's between Spruce Creek, The Speedway & The Beach......

[rstreet]

I'm betting you remember the bikini's:rofl BTW where was Fox's shop in 63?
robert

[Speed]

in the old fish carburetor bldg.

[NASCAR FAN]

Super Chevy/Doug Marion article on 348, 409, Z11(including production Numbers? pg. 4)

http://www.superchevy.com/features/pre1977full/sucp_0801_348_409_w_engines/index.html

Rick

[Speed]

This is from Hank'sZ11 page. Just looking around today and notices this picture titled Chevrolets first 427. If it is a 63 Z11, why does it have heater hoses? I thought all the 63 Z11 were heater delete. If it is a 62 with the high port heads and induction, it's not a 427 just a 409 with heads and induction and not a Z11 at all. Anybody know this guy? Am I missing something. Let's hear some opinions. I would think this guy would have the real scoop on the Z11, I don't get the picture or statment. Go to info page

http://www.hanksz11page.com/

http://www.angelfire.com/ia/chevysupersport/Z11.html

What's wrong with this picture, You ask?
Answer...Nothing

Excellent job Hank !:bow

[models916]

Here is a quote from the article with the picture in question.....On the inside of the car it was standard Impala trim with no radio and no heater. Picture clearly shows a heater. I don't see aluminum inner fenders or fan shroud. If you restored a Z-11 you wouldn't paint the aluminum pars. The picture seems to be a 62 with the raised port heads and intake. That makes it a 409 not a 427.

[NASCAR FAN]

The book--SUPER STOCK: Drag Racing the Family Sedan by Larry Davis has a 1963 race day photo of the engine compartment of Don Nicholson's '63 Z11 on page 65. The inside of the front fenders and fan shroud are painted a dark color. There is a photo of another '63 Z11 on page 66 that is the same way. I have photos of three '63 Z11s I have taken over the years at Floyd Garretts Muscle Car Museum. All three have the inside of the fenders and shroud painted semi-gloss black. I also have photos of the "Locomotion II Oak Hill Chevrolet" I took about 20 years ago at an auto auction. It is also the same way. The "Locomoton" '63 Z11 is pictured in Alan Colvin's book CBTN. I have never seen a '63 Z11 with a heater or radio.

Rick

[Speed]

the one on page 96 is near and dear to me.(the memories)
Yes...desert boots were all the rage with drivers back then.

[oil4kids]

Z11 for sale (an ad from 1965 Dragnews)

[Speed]

:cool::cool:

[Speed]

:cool::cool:

[Speed]

:cool::cool: .....
sorry, didn't mean to triple reply

[oil4kids]

hey at least Bell...got 1000 more then Harrell, he only got 1500


BTW

I thought all the 62 aluminum cars were SS hardtops. Most of these had the fronts transferred to Bel Air hardtop bodies at some point. A lot of these cars got pretty mixed-up by late 62, through 63.

[dq409]

All the Z11 cars at the convention had painted engine compartment parts,,,