Help me educate a few "knowitalls"

[MileHiSS]

Would someone like to tell a few smartasses the real story on W motors? It pisses me off when most people repeat fiction.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273549

[jim_ss409]

It seems like everybody has an opinion about W motors that's based on what they saw or heard about from their local area. Some think they're terrific and some think they're over-rated. The HAMB has a huge membership so I imagine you're going to get a lot of opinions in both directions.:dunno
There's a really cool thread on that forum with drag cars from about 1959 to 1965 on that forum.
Lots of pictures of W motor cars. It's a HUGE thread so it'll take a couple of minutes to download... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247089&showall=1

I always thought it would be cool to put a 409 in a 63 Vette. I'd like to see one done so that it looked like it came that way from the factory.
I also what would have happened if GM would have built a run of a hundred or so Z-11 powered Corvettes in 63. I bet they'd be pretty valuable today.:scratch

[60Impala4Dad]

I lurk and post on the HAMB regularly, and giving my 2 cents worth you could spend all day correcting and arguing with some of the idiots who post there trying to grow up and act like they know something. :bang Thats why I like this site and other topic-specific sites that focus on facts in a particular area and where wrong doers are quickly corrected, blacklisted, or disposed of. :takethat In my opinion say your peace to the guy, close the thread, and don't reopen it. The intelligent folks will know the truth.

[droptop62]

there is a lot of interesting stuff on the hamb, but I wouldn't expect an intelligent educated answer about a 348, 409 on that site. Now if you want to argue about 32 fords you could have a lifetime hobby over there.
I do like like the HAMB but there seems to be a lot of attitude over there.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Jim mentions: "I always thought it would be cool to put a 409 in a 63 Vette. I'd like to see one done so that it looked like it came that way from the factory."

I agree! If ever I were to build a "kit car", it would be a 1963 Grand Sport replica with a 409 in it. I have the frame, the 1963 QB block and heads, but there are several other builds "scheduled" ahead of that one. Maybe once I retire in the next few years...

Cheers!
TomK

[larry t]

I post over there some, even posted on this thread. I try to stick to facts and not opinion, but I don't always have everything right either (sometimes seems to be a short between my brain and my fingers.:doh).
Anyway, to paraphrase Bill Cosby, "Trying to win an internet discussion is like trying to nail Jello to the wall."
Larry T

[Tom Kochtanek]

I'm sure many of you have heard of this old Persian parable, where six different "experts" all approach an elephant and try to describe the animal based on what they grab first. That's probably why so many of us old guys have varying opinions of the 348/409. By "us" I mean not use 348-409 Forum guys, but us old farts in general. I include myself in that category, and don't mean to demean anyone by that phrase :).

Just think of the fella who first learned of the new 348 in 1958 -- you have to admit that particular first design was a bit of a dud, being installed in a progessively heavier (than 1955-6-7) bodies. Performance was OK, but not as good as what we would see later. It seems few are willing to step up and purchase the first year 348 with the oddball water jackets. Could that be the only reason?

Later came a bit too late and maybe with too few cubes -- Ford had the 406, Chrysler the 413, Pontiac the 421 by early 1961 or so. Hence the short-lived 409. The last gasp was the Z-11 effort, a very strong one indeed :). Blame GM management for their efforts in 1963 to squash the muscle revolution.

But then I'm preaching to the choir, aren't I? Think back to other misunderstood engine designs, like Ford 427 OHC, the Chevy 427 Mystery Motor, the 421 Pontiac engine, and you'll note that these were/are all shrouded in "legend and rumor".

Add "revisionist personal history" ("My buddy had a SBC in a '55 that would kill that 409 sort of inuendo") that people vaguely remember (or made up) and you have just that, legend and rumor.

I say let those uninformed folks stay that way, you can't change their minds. Be glad that they are not looking in the same barns and pastures as we are in locating these legendary giants :) :) :).

Cheers!
TomK

[dq409]

But then I'm preaching to the choir, aren't I? Think back to other misunderstood engine designs, like Ford 427 OHC, the Chevy 427 Mystery Motor, the 421 Pontiac engine, and you'll note that these were/are all shrouded in "legend and rumor".



Cheers!
TomK

Don`t leave out that 426 Hemi !! fastest badest stock engine ever made !!:rofl

I think there is more PORK on the HAM,,,B Hokiey As* Message board then brains !!!

[Tom Kochtanek]

I agree that the 426 was/is one heck of a torque monster!

The ones on the list are engine designs that were (IMHO) under-developed in terms of potential, and cut short in their development. I think GM could've gotten soooo much more out of the 409 were that a priority. Same for that 427 from Ford, the Chrysler 413. I think that if Pontiac were "allowed to", they could have turned that 421 into a monster as well. The early SD stuff was a great start, but it got cut off in 1963 just like the Z-11 projects and Zora's beloved Grand Sports :(.

I might take the Mystery Motor out, since it was well developed into the BBC a couple years later. The 426 hemi seemed to benefit from continued development, the 409 unfortunately did not. But take a look now, see all the interest in the "W" market, if you will, and look at the performance that they are making using today's technologies and metallurgies :).

Cheers,
TomK

[Old School]

These guys are morons. Chevrolet made truck versions off all their successful motors. The 350 was the most popular and under the hood of millions of trucks. GM did the same with the big block 396-454 motors.

Funny, I don’t hear anyone calling the 454 a Winnebago motor!
:takethat

[Brian Thompson]

The way I see it, the one's that bad talk the W motors are the one's that never owned one, got their *ss handed to them when they bought a small block or were daily drivers of a "409 dump truck".
Granted my car does have a small block and I have never "driven" a car with a W motor, but 2 409's do live in my garage and one will be in my car soon, but not soon enough!

[Phil Reed]

but 2 409's do live in my garage and one will be in my car soon, but not soon enough!

So Brian..............where did the second one come from????? Are you holding out on me??????????:dunno:dunno:dunno

Will you have the 409 in your 62 in 6 weeks??????????????

[Brian Thompson]

Phil-

The second one is actually the first one. It's a 65 656 pass car block (333 heads, etc...) that was an irrigation motor out of West Texas.

I will not have it done in 6 weeks. :cry We haven't even started on the machine work yet. Being unemployed has really put a damper on my projects, but has not halted them entirely. Just don't tell the wife! :rofl

I do promise a good look in 6 weeks though!!!! 700r4 just got installed last week, just waiting on the driveshaft and then Ronnie is going to run down the drag strip to see what she will do.

[raymar58454]

Jim mentions: "I always thought it would be cool to put a 409 in a 63 Vette. I'd like to see one done so that it looked like it came that way from the factory."

I agree! If ever I were to build a "kit car", it would be a 1963 Grand Sport replica with a 409 in it. I have the frame, the 1963 QB block and heads, but there are several other builds "scheduled" ahead of that one. Maybe once I retire in the next few years...

Cheers!
TomK

Tom, 409 in a 63 vette. I had a friend that had a 409 in a 63? stingray roadster (or removable hardtop if thats what they called them). It looked stock, except that the alternator stuck up so high that they were going to build a bubble in the hood. He built this car after having his butt kicked in his 64 Dodge max wedge, aluminum front clip by a 64 409 Impala SS convertible 3 out of 3 by 3 lenghts. I was in the Dodge so I seen it. Anyway, next time I see his son I'll see if he has any pictures of the vette(there were a lot taken but may have been lost in shop fire. I drove the Dodge and road in the vette but never got to drive it. You've heard the stories of putting a hundred dollar bill on the dash and if you could reach it you could have it,well there was no way you could pull your back off the seat in that vette, guaranteed.

Ray

[johnnyrod]

Brian thompson did they use a shim spacer on the driveshaft for the torque converter? I have a 700r4 and curious. Love the story about killin the dodge.

[raymar58454]

Brian thompson did they use a shim spacer on the driveshaft for the torque converter? I have a 700r4 and curious. Love the story about killin the dodge.

Johhnyrod, Heres another story of the Dodge. I wasn't there for this one but heres what I was told. These guys from Springfield, Il had heard how bad this Doge was so they came 120 miles to see. The guy with the Dodge said he won, however every one else told me to ask how come theDodge had yellow paint on the front fender and the other car had black on his rear fender. The other car? Oh yeah 55 chevy. Engine? What else 409.

Ray

[Brian Thompson]

Brian thompson did they use a shim spacer on the driveshaft for the torque converter? I have a 700r4 and curious. Love the story about killin the dodge.

Johnnyrod. not sure i understand your question. The only mods I had to do to put it in the car is change the tailshaft support and cut the driveshaft (4 speed shaft) by 3 inches.

[dakota tom]

I'll make a few comments on the other engines mentioned in this thread.

The 421 Pontiac was bored out to become the 428, then stroked to 455.

The 413 Chrysler wedge was bored to 426 and then to 440. The old 413 Max Wedge heads were the best for these for years.

The 427 Ford Cammer was killed by NASCAR. Made illegal for NASCAR compitition so development stopped.

The 406 Ford was a bored 390. With a recored block casting for a bigger bore it became the early 427 center oiler. The side oiler 427 was developed to fix oiling system problems. The 429/460 was coming into the scene so the special side oiler block was discontinued and the 406 was stroked to become the 428.

The 426 Hemi was the same bottom end design as the 426 wedge with a different head bolt pattern for the hemi heads. It was designed and supported by Chrysler as a racing engine. Hard to beat in high rpm racing, not so hard to beat on the street. I did it with a 350 Oldsmobile W-31.

The 409 for competition was improved with the Z-11 heads, the mystery motor had the canted valve heads of the later mark IV engines. The Mark IV engine had an improved bottom end to hold up to the increased HP the new heads made. From day one the 396 had two different head port sizing. One for high perfomance and one for daily use, later on a smaller size yet for trucks and the smogger motors.

Most engines are good in thier own right. Most are designed as day to day power and not as a maximum output racing engine.

Now the aftermarket is willing to make new high performance parts in smaller numbers than before for those that want to run something different. I think the CNC mills have made this possible.

The 409 is an important part of the automotive history and I have 409 stuff around. I also have 396-427-454s also. Nothing makes more power cheaper than a 427-454.

[Dick MacKenzie]

The 409 is an important part of the automotive history and I have 409 stuff around. I also have 396-427-454s also. Nothing makes more power cheaper than a 427-454.

All good points you make Tom and I won't argue any of them. I think you can compare engines to women though.
The 427-454 is kind of like Britney Spears, Pretty, Cheap & Fast! :rofl:rofl
http://www.hotelchatter.com/files/admin/bspears_fs.JPG

On the other hand are the "W" blocks, more like Audrey Hepburn, powerful, timeless classic beauties.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/06/01/main_audrey21.jpg

:brow:clap

[johnnyrod]

I read on here that you need a shim to go between the crank and the flywheel to properly mount the torque converter. Brian Thompson. Maybe someone else here could help out here. John

[petepedlar]

John, I am putting a 700R4 behind mine as well. From what I have found out the shims are .025 thick, I got mine from Show Cars. You need two. They are needed to make the flex plate sit tight against the crank flange. The 409 crank is a little different.
You also have to make sure that the touque converter IS NOT pushed back tight into the transmission. It has to have room to expand when it gets hot. If it's tight you can take out the transmission and the crank.
I have read quite a bit about it and I think it depends on what torque converter/flex plate combo you have....... some fit perfectly. Some have to have the mounting bosses on the TC machined down, some have shims put in there.
I'm planning on doing a test fit and check with a good transmission guy to make sure it's right.

Dave

[dq409]

All good points you make Tom and I won't argue any of them. I think you can compare engines to women though.
The 427-454 is kind of like Britney Spears, Pretty, Cheap & Fast!
On the other hard are the "W" blocks, more like Audrey Hepburn, powerful, timeless classic beauties.

:brow:clap




Heeee heeee heeeee RIGHT ON !!!!!:clap:rofl

[WENGINE]

Don't get to upset That war of words has been going on forever.Don't have any W stories yet but hope to. Two stories that do stand out. Are the time a guy was bragging about his new 428 Ford until everyone wanted to puck. hen a buddy of mine smoked him with his over 100000 mile 396 chevelle,Blue smoke and all. But the best one buy far was the time a 56 chevy (Mr. Dirt) with it's junkyard 58 283 Two brl. smoked the big mouth Hemi Cuda guy and never came out of 2nd gear.:beerbang