New guy with a Z11

[Southtowns27]

Hi everybody, my name's Andy. I was talking to a good friend of mine and he told me that he had a 427 W motor that had been in storage for many years. His father owned a repair shop back in the 60's and 70's and had picked it up somewhere along the line. This was about 2 years ago and I had never heard of a 427 W motor. I just knew of the 348 and 409. I did a little research and found that the 427 W motor was a stroked 409 and was referred to as a Z11. I thought that sounded pretty cool, and being a racer, I've been after him ever since wanting to buy it. Well, I had to stop over at his house earlier today. He told me that he no longer had room to store it, realized he would never have time to do anything with it, and decided that it needed a good home. He gave it to me...yes, GAVE it to me. My jaw hit the floor. I'm picking it up next week. It's totally disassembled and unfortunately the heads got lost somewhere along the way. I checked the casting number on the block and it came up as 3830814. Is this really a Z11? Regardless this is still a cool motor. I know SBC's inside out and backwards, but like most people, know absolutely nothing about the W's. My plan right now is to build a street legal retro drag car....we'll see how it all pans out. I think the first step is to get the motor to my race engine builder. So now the real questions. What do I tell him to do with it? What should I do about heads? Cam? Reciprocating assembly? Induction? Etc etc.. I really am lost. Also, how many of these were made and during what years? Are there any hp and tq numbers for it? Thanks in advance for any info!!! This is going to be a loooong process and I'm sure I'll be asking lots of questions along the way. :cheers

[MRHP]

wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: . I don't think I can say anymore. You are truely a blessed man

[Bungy]

What you need to do is check the stamping at the front of the block to see if it was stamped as a Z-11. The regular 409 blocks and Z-11 are the same. The Z-11 has a longer stroke crankshaft. Check the casting number on the crank. What really makes a Z-11 a Z-11 are the unique heads and two piece intake manifold. If you don't have these then you basically have a 409 block. However if it's got the Z-11 crank it's definately worth something. Especially since you got it for free!

[fourspeed409]

If it is a Z11 block absolutly do not deck the block without figuring a way to preserve the stamping.
Shane

[Southtowns27]

Thanks for the replies...When I bring it home next week I'll check the stamping. What was a Z-11 stamped as anyway? 2 piece intake manifold? How's that work? I didn't notice when I looked at everything quick yesterday.

[IgnitionMan]

When I bought my complete car Z11, it had been a "racer" but the owner had made just ten passes with it, got married and the car sat for 6 years. It was in exellent shape, and all I had to do was tidy it up a touch.

I bought that car for $500.00, way back in 1977. I bought a lot of old musclecars from 1972 thru 1979, most in great condition, as they were considered to be not worth much, and gas hogs living in a gasoline crisis. I'm glad those cars are still around, instead of those people whom considered them expendable doing something like crushing them and bleeding automotive history off into oblivion.

I'd find a '63 and clone a Z11, tell people it is a clone, and honor that engine and car series.

[JokersBel]

If she's really a QM (according to our decoder) and that crank were true to the Z11, then you'd find yourself sitting very well. Someone out there has the remaining parts to complete as original and with an engine so rare, they'd be worth reintroducing together. I'd preserve it without delay, discontinue any and all machine work/overhaul and seek out what you need to complete as original. Or sell it to someone who can afford to find the heads and intake, and breather....

Didn't I hear someone got like 20000 for the breather alone or was I taken in by the rumor???

[Southtowns27]

Originally posted by JokersBel

Didn't I hear someone got like 20000 for the breather alone or was I taken in by the rumor???

Um..wow.. What parts were unique to the Z11? Obviously the crank due to the longer stroke. I know about the 2 piece intake. What breather are we talking about? What makes the heads special? Was the cam a special grind?

[Bungy]

The air cleaner for thr race Z-11s I beleive was the same as a regular production 2x4 setup without the center ring. Just the base, top, and filter element. The street versions had a cowl induction type. I think this is the version that alegedly brought 20 grand. Although that sounds quite high to me. The heads are also unique to the Z-11 and only the two piece intake will work with them. The camshaft however is the same as the later 2x4 engines.

[IgnitionMan]

Block, crank, rods, pistons, cam, heads, valves, springs intake manifold package, distributor (curve), carbs, exhaust mans as well, all different from production 409/409 and 409/425.

If using the top end from the Z11 on, say, a 409/425, heads will need intake manifold as well, intake ports are higher than any other W head.

There are other differences, although somewhat minor compared to the other stuff.

[jim_ss409]

Go to the "articles' section on the homepage there is some Z11 info there. If you find that this engine is indeed a Z11 you can probably get aftermarket aluminum heads from Lamar Walden. They would be expensive but still cheaper than trying to get a set of originals. Z11 stuff is extremely rare so there's a good chance that this could be a regular high performance engine, still a great score. Good luck.

[IgnitionMan]

In essence:

Block ID code change = different block

My original car has a cast iron short length header set, not stock mans, and they have never been off the car. They guy I bought the car off of said the car hadn't been apart at all, even with the 10 runs it ran, just valve covers to adjust valves, and he bought it new.

Same basic carbs, different jetting, not the same setup

Cam, yes, 2 degrees retarded over stock 409 cam, as far as I could tell from degreeing mine without taking it apart, and from factory manufacturing build line specs I have seen. It came in dead on spec.

So, those parts may well be same, but when installed and/or marked differently, different is in play.

No argument, mine runs just fine.

[oil4kids]

Now I thought Z11 cam was 555/555 lift

the 409 425 504/515 lift and
the 409 /409 was 434/434 or was that just some old info i had

[CDNpontiac409guy]

AAH, but Mark... a not so well known fact...
the post mid November 63 production 1964 425 HP 409 is the ACTUAL fastest regular 409 !
YES, it uses the .555 lift cam which was introduced simuntaneously with the "583" large port heads ( which have a deeper spring pocket to accommodate the .040"-.050" higher lift ).

Cam so called Z11 cam was used on the big horse 409 through the end of 1965 production, and subsequent service packages.

A friend of mine has a VERY COOL GM sevice bulletin which came out in January, 64. It gives instructions on how to tune/compensate for the eratic idle !
AAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:deal

:cheers

BTW, NHRA will let me use this cam, if I claim the 425HP instaed of 409.

[64ss409]

Here is a link to NHRA specs if any one wants to do some spec checking.

Ron
http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/engine/

[CDNpontiac409guy]

hey Ron...

Here are just a few of the screw-ups on the NHRA site:

61 409 does NOT use 690/583 large port heads
61 was NOT available with 380/409HP engine
61 did NOT have a cam lift higher than .439"
There is no such thing as a .465/.495 ( or whatever that is you have published ) lift cam in a factory 409.... ever... any year
61 engine had 11.25:1 comp because of a slightly tighter head...not because of less block volume
63-65 340HP 409's do NOT have 11:1 compression. They are 10:1. Therefore, contrary to your published "official" piston acceptance list, the Ross piston PN 77563 that I had approved, is NOT acceptable for Stock in a 340HP engine.

I just posted this in a discussion on another site ( coincidence )

:rolleyes:

[SS425HP]

When I was at Curt Harvey's several years ago, he had a 62 and a 63 set of Z-11 heads and intakes. I remember he showed me the difference, and it was very subtle. There wasn't much to tell the difference. I think I would remember if there was something as obvious as the heat crossover being blanked, but I sure don't remember them being like this. Think there was a ridge or something like that, that was the difference. Nothing major.
I can say for sure, there is a difference between the 62 and 63 sets.

Fred

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Richard;) ... I may be over my head ( pun intended ) though. We never had Z11's here in Canada... I've never even seen a real one !
I DO have some good reference material though.
I have some excellent old pictures of a pair of Z11 heads. They definitely have the heat crossover port. I also looked in Alan Colvin's book. They also definitely had the heat crossover.... but it is blocked off:p .

sorry, that's all I know:)

[oil4kids]

When you see a Z11 close up you end up taking a second look and scratching your head, because it looks unusual- the heads are much taller then the 609/583 heads the 2 piece intake is so tall that it does not have that friendly 409 look. The intake and heads only have 2 bolt holes next to the intake port instead of 3. It looks more like a Pontiac 389/400 design to me.

[64ss409]

Aubrey

That was just a link to NHRA site. Yes I see they have some mistakes.

But I did not publish anything. Not sure what you meant.

No offense meant. Sorry.

Ron

[CDNpontiac409guy]

R O N ???????????
sorry ?
Sorry for what, man ? !
You just happen to get me, not 10 minutes after I had a heated discussion with someone about the NHRA "rules" :evil !

I'm just glad you posted that link so everybody here can see the mistakes.
We ALL make mistakes ( like my poor choice of words in my previous post;) )... But NHRA won't listen to anybody so they can correct theirs.
I'm told that that is nothing new for them:rolleyes:

Geez, I hope I don't have to change my alias name to IHRAstocker409:eek: :p !

[IgnitionMan]

Maybe the same metal configuration, but when you get right down to the ident, QA, QB, QM, etc., they ain't the same to those whom want the real seal, and THAT alone makes them all different and unique to one another.

Anybody know what the revision was.......main change was to remove the front half of the distributor pilot hole, opening the post area to the valley. Previously, the distributor was almost all the way obscured to the valley.

I've always thought opf the NHRA as needing an "We're the" in front of the name, so it would be like this, "We're the NHRA", or "We're the NOT HAPPY RACING ASSOCIATION. Of course, IHRA is much worse. I refer to NHRA "tech" personnel as the "duh...errrr....huh...what...nah?" group.

[348NUT]

I know of a 425/hp 409 block #3844422 stamped T0408QB. I thought it was a 64 but I don't have the cast date codes? The heads are #3852583 but again I didn't get the date codes. :( Somebody said it was a 65 but they didn't make the 425hp in 65 did they and didn't 65s use #3857656 blocks and all J codes?

[Fran Preve]

The engine you have,WITHOUT the heads and intake is a 409 with a 3.650 crank AND different rods. The rods were different on Z-11's. IF the suffix code is still on it, AND comes back to a Z-11 sell it, for big bucks. It would be senseless to try building it up when you could build 2 HP 409's for what you could get for a TRUE Z-11 short block!.

[Fran Preve]

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Air cleaner on 1962 Mark I was a 2x4 with an open element. The air cleaner on a 1963 Mark Is, which was the engine used in the Z-11 package, was a cowl induction piece. Youse guys are GOOD!. Nonetheless, they NEVER put a Z-11 engine in a 1962 Chevy, the "service package", which was the heads and 2piece intake was designated "Mark I". The 427 version was designated Mark Is (for stroke). The Z-11 was a PACKAGE which included the Mark Is engine. I know, nit picky, but I'm tired of hearing about 1962 Z-11's, never made them.

PS: I'm also tired of hearing about the 57 Z-11's built in 1963. That INCORRECT number is based on the "Arlington" letter where Vince Piggins said he THOUGHT they built 57. The correct number of PRODUCTION LINE BUILT Z-11's is 50. That's the number of Z-11 suffix coded engines the Tonawanda engine plant built. How many 1963 Z-11's were built from over the counter parts?. Who knows?. I've seen Z-11 2 piece intakes dated as late as 1965.

[348NUT]

Fran, good info on the Z11. Check out this thread to see what happened. NUT
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1457

[348NUT]

Does anyone have a picture of one of these open element cleaners?

[Fran Preve]

348: this open element air cleaner was home made rather than factory. The one I saw on a 62 aluminum front end car made it up because he had t have "something". I (they,he) did'nt know what racers used at the time but you wouldn't want to use a stock closed black one, and the cowl induction system wasn't used until the factory did it in '63.

[Bungy]

Nut, I actually saw a pic of one on this site someplace. Might check the pics section but I think it was in a post. Bungy

[Fran Preve]

RICK:Yes you misunderstood, because I wasn't clear. The '62 "A/FX" package which included the 2 pc intake didn't include an air cleaner but POSSIBLY did include instructions on how to modify the AC.

[Fran Preve]

K

[jim_ss409]

Here's a photo of a 61 SS Impala that was suposed to have come from the factory with a dual quad 409. Notice the Z11 style air cleaner. I've no idea if this is factory stuff but I thought some might find it interesting.

[Impalaguru]

Is that a picture of the engine in a dark charcoal grey 61 SS? I've seen pics of the car before, supposed to be the most unique 61 SS arround, or thats what the person selling it said.
Ross

[Fran Preve]

It's BOGUS!. Period. No '61 duel quads ever built, cowl AC also bogus. Period.

[Bungy]

I was at Floyd Garret's muscle car museum first week in Sept and he had a black 61 2dr sedan with a dual quad 409. Claimed to have all documentation to prove it. I've never known Floyd to be a liar.:confused:

[SS425HP]

I helped build that car, Bungy. Was my motor in it. Sold it to the guy that built the car. Nuff said.

Fred

[Fran Preve]

I know Floyd Garrett, and he knows me. I don't believe he ever said it was a real car, he knows better. As per previous post above this one, it's bogus. All '61 409 engines were single 4 barrel.

[SS425HP]

As to the 61 2 door sedan at Floyd's, it is a DAMN NICE CAR. The guy that built it, with some help, is a stickler for detail. I don't think you could find a better car any where. The same guy helped me restore my 63. We had some arguments as to some of the stuff we were replacing, and he wouldn't let me put a piece on the car that wasn't perfect. He also did a 62 Bubble top that was at Floyd's place some time back. Floyd sold it later on. It too was a top notch piece. Can't beat his work. Only does it for himself and some friends. We graduated together. Ornery guy, but you can't beat him.

Fred

[Fran Preve]

Floyd wouldn't have anything but the best. I haven't talked to him in years, never been to his museum neither. Was to his house and shop in Fernadino Beach however. Long story. Side note: I was the guy who found the pre-production Z-16 Chevelle he has/had?. Screwed him out of a Z-11 motor too, but it was completely unintentional. Guy around here has/had aluminum front end Mark I '62 bubble top, same with a stock '09, and Z-11 car. expert on them actually. I'll have to look him up. Oh, I broght that Z-11 motor to him from PA. Had it in the trunk of a "hot'rod" '79 Malibu, and of course saw all the special parts on it. There's another Z-11 around here, the guy wants to put it in a stock '63 Impala. I tried to get him to sell it, nahhhhh, I'll keep it. Had the heads and intake sold to Floyd for $10,000, complete engine for $15,000. Go figure, he could have had THREE completely restored and rebuilt 425HP '09's but wanted the rare Z-11 motor.

[Z-11Guy]

Hey there,

What block stamping does yours have? If it is a Z-11 block it should say "QM". QA-380-400HP,QB-409-425HP,QC-340HP(depending on transmission Pglide or standard shift). I'm a Z-11 fan and hopefully this can help you.

[Impalaguru]

Hey Z-11 guy,
That isn't Raj Reddy from Seattle is it? If it is this is Ross Male from Iowa!

[bbqcruising]

Fred. is the guy your talking about live in North Carolina? I saw Floyd at Year One at Bristol and he told me to call him and he would give me his phone number. Some interesting tidbits he told me. He bought a 61 409,62 409, and 63 409 new. He is also building a 62 Bubbletop.

[SS425HP]

No, he lives here in Ohio about 5 miles from me.

[Impala63Z11]

To the person who just got the Z 11 Engine please contact me at Impala63Z11@aol.com or call me at 810 / 543 / 0460 I would really like to talk to you about this engine. Hank

[348NUT]

http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1457

NUT

[oil4kids]

Am I to believe that there are members on this site who never saw Z11s race back in the 60's or seen Dick Harrells Z11 race Richard Petty Hemi Barracuda or Good Ol Mr. Wilson's Z-11 '63 Chev or Hubert Platt's '63 Z-11 Chevy and the Little Georgia Shaker Thunderbolt;



well neither did I but I just ordered this video


http://www.beeonvideo.homestead.com/pdl1.html

i just ordered it and will let you know I have no idea of the quality

[LongIsland63SS409]

Mark,

What part of Long Island do you live?

Mike

[dq409]

Mark,, Be sure to give us a review on that video !!!
Sounds like a must for the collection !!!
What was the cost ?

[oil4kids]

the video was $18

and to SS im near Islip

[LongIsland63SS409]

Mark,

What a small world!

Possibly could be neighbors.Looking to go into contract on a house in West Islip.

Mike