Unhappy with TH400

[tmracing62]

The choice of an automatic has been less than rewarding. The transmission - a TH400 - is good to about 1500 hp so no worries there. But it's not really driving the car. Good for brackets, but just not fitting for driving and racing a car like this somehow. Can't really explain it. And a 4000 stall means having to twist it up pretty high to get the full effect. Good for track, bad for thrilling the guys at the biker bar. Launching at 4000 when all you want to do is chirp it is not an option.

The most logical choice is a Jerico. Lots of cash that I don't have. But worth it sometime. Anyone with experience with these transmissions (Liberty, Jerico, Lenco)? Must have a reverse. There are lots of racers I have talked to, but few actually drive it anywhere but at the track and none are in an X.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Michael:

It is clear to me that you need a second vehicle, this one for wooing the ladies and thrilling the biker bar guys with daring moves in open traffic :)

Of course you keep the track-based Bubbletop and continue to refine its performance....

You need to face this dilemna squarely and get that second "W" powered X frame driver :) :) :)

Ah, were it so easy to do this, we'd all have more than one !

Cheers,
TomK

[tmracing62]

Dang Tom, why didn't I think of that? Two cars. Different transmissions. I'll call Lamar tomorrow. And as far as the ladies - they fall into two categories. 1) It's a dumb guy thing. 2) Fun until they find the ProstaCare in the glovebox and I need a nap.

This car's great (I'd say fabulous, but when your wife owns a dress store, you do NOT ever want to hear words like that again), I'm fortunate and I am certainly not complaining. But plain and simple, not shifting is like hockey without the fights. Grandma's underwear drawer (just guessing here). Laurie Dhue in a Bhurka. Henry Kissinger singing beloved favorites.

There's a whole level of skill and finesse missing. This may well be my last hot rod and I'll shamelessly admit I am greedy for the thrill of hammering through the gears again and making the decisions about when to do it. Maybe that sounds too dramatic, but bungy jumping has been ruled out. A knee thing.

So I am speculating about it. Maybe the guys at the biker bar will chip in.

[Impalaguru]

I just thought I'd mention that there are NEW m-22 muncie transmissions. They have stronger cases, mid plates, gears, etc. I don't have one but I've seen them advertised on the internet, somewhere. I think they were about $16-1800. Not sure how that fits your budget or how it compares to a Jerico. Just wanted to mention this.
Ross

[dq409]

Boy,,,,,You guys sure know how to make us auto guys feel bad,,,

I hope OZ don`t find this thread !! heeeeheee

Go with the Jerico if you want that row boat feel !!!!

Other wise,,,,,, go with a lower stall around 2500 and install or buy a TH400 with a trans brake !!!

Best of both worlds,,,,, streetable stall (2500) plus a launch RPM around the four-grand you need !!

Hopefully I`ll have that set-up before Sept. !!!!

This way I`ll have one hand for steering and one hand to tease the female passenger,,,,,http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/s/diablo.gif

[kbc409nova]

I can hardly wait until Aubrey reads these posts, this should make for some great reading. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D
:cheers :cheers :cheers

[348NUT]

This guy has a Jeffco 4 speed clutchless in his 55. With a Big, Big block he is running in the 9s and drives to the strip! I really like this car!
http://groups.msn.com/twolaneblacktophomepage/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=5832&LastModified=4675440103454229079

http://groups.msn.com/twolaneblacktophomepage/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=5145&LastModified=4675436602722684048

[348NUT]

Is anyone here familiar with these trans? He says it's "totally streetable"

[dq409]

What the hey are all those funny knobs for !!???? heeee heee

With a twin turbo he should be able to run on the street ALL day and still some !!! I bet he even gets decent gas milage to boot !!

They ran an article in the early 70`s about a 350 Camaro with twin turbos that ran 10`s and averaged 21+MPG on the road !!

I`ve spent hours looking for this magazine and never found it.
Had the oridginal back when it came out,,,,,,

I`ll have to post a picture of this place that sells old mags,,,,,
you can get lost in there!!!,,,dq

[SS425HP]

Looks like a Lenco to me. Or same idea.

Fred

[Steve "wully bully"]

TM,
We run a Jerico in the bubbletop, not something you want for the street the way we run it. They make two versions, one for drag, one for road and circle track. The road race version would probably be good, but expensive. You would also have to investigate clutches, as a Jerico has a lightweight mag case. They are virtually indestructable, as long as you treat them right, which means maintenance and the right clutch. Another choice would be a G-Force. They make a four and a five speed version, and also have factory remanufactured versions from time to time. Most of the top Pro-stock, and virtually all of the former Pro-stock truck guys were running them. We run a TH400 in the sedan, with an 8" converter. It will stall to about 3200 with the footbrake, and with the transbrake, we can launch at 5500, and yank the front tires. It probably wouldn't be very streetable, though. And I agree, I can't wait till the budget allows another stick, to get rid of the auto.
Steven

[63z11]

348 nut, The trans you pictured is a jeffco, manufactured by a gentleman who worked for lenco years ago. A friend fo mine has one in a 66 chevelle with a 572. The car runs 9.30 on horsepower and mid-eights with N2o. The jeffco trans is very similar to a lenco only it uses TH400 clutches. And its suprisingly streetable.

[oil4kids]

Its my understanding that as great a trans as the turbo 400 is, esp with the switch pitch converter, it wastes about 75HP for itself, the powerglide uses actually much much less but its only a 2 speed gear unless you use the old twin drive.( or was it called dual path)?

[dq409]

What I would really like to see is a comparison ,,,,same car same enine,,,, run the 1320 !!

you would have to retune the car for the different trans though..gears and set-up, for max ET ,,,but this would be fun !!

Run it with the manual,, and try several types,,,, then the same with several types of autos.

Lots of veriables I know, but that would be the only way to do it

Lets see,,,,,,,, Wully Bully???? Let us know when you do change over,,,,dq

[409z28]

Michael,,Michael,, REAL,, cars have 4 speeds. I mailed DQ a little something,and he agreed ,,but he also ribbed a little bit HEE Heee'Hey Jim ! put one of my slicked Muncies in and have some fun. I have 6 ready to go.
Semper FI

[Steve "wully bully"]

DQ,
We had the Jerico in the sedan for eight years, before we built the bubbletop. It had run a best of a 10.46, at 129.4 mph. That was after the engine was worn out. Since the engine has been freshened, and the auto put in, it has run a best of 10.60, at 125.2mph. How's that for a comparo?
Steven

[dq409]

NAHHHH,,,, You know what they say about a worn engine ??

Don`t you????

They [I}always[/I[ run the fastest just before they blow up !!! heeee heeee


Thats interesting,,,,,,,,,,,

OK,,, different cars ,,,,,,,, different engines,,,,,nice try,,,,LOL

[Steve "wully bully"]

DQ,
Yes, we know that theory very well. Fortunately, we have not lost the engine yet, after running it for 12 seasons. We freshened the bore two years ago, after we couldn't keep the oil in it anymore, it had that much blowby. Unfortunately, the other engine is another story! It has yet to run it's quickest, and it has blown up twice.
Steven

[oil4kids]

What about a Renkin Magneseium 4 speed transmission. This is a Nascar type transmission that will handle 1000hp. and has shifting similar to the jerico or tex t-101.(uses face tooth engagement instead of synchros).It has a std. GM style 26 tooth input and a turbo 400 output spline. It will fit all Gm bellhousings. This is a trans from Kurt Huntington, a Nascar engine builder

[dq409]

AHHHHH,,,, Steve now you know you CAN`T use that for the comparison !! LOL

Weird how some engines run forever with all kinds of abuse and some can`t take it even if it`s built the same and run the same way.

What kind of problems did the second engine have to make it blow twice?

Hummmm,,,, could be cause it`s running behind a stick ????
heeeee hooooo hhahhhhaaaaa Oppps,,,got a little carried away,,,

It would be a major experiment to do all the work to test a car and engine with the two different trans,,,,

Could it be done on a dyno or is there not enough of real world resistance to do it that way?

I hope you get the bug out of that second engine for next season,,,,dq

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Quote DQ:
I hope OZ don`t find this thread !! heeeeheee

Quote kbc409:
I can hardly wait until Aubrey reads these posts


I FOOOUUUND it:D ;)

TM... I know what you're saying... and oddly enough, I understand WHY you chose the "Jeritol" ( that's what we in the shop refer to them as now;) ) transmission... Dr Torbeck's finest !
But it's just not right, is it ?
Stupid converter slipping when you don't want it to... stalling when you don' want it to.

Steve... Thank YOU for that "comparison"

Here's one for of you poor souls who are plagued by the short comings of the Jeritol transmission.... This is a quote from another forum. I don't have authorization to mention his name ( I'm very particular about that ), but this fellow seems to be convinced:

"The best the car ran was 10.17 @ 131 and some change. It weighed weighed 3500 and still does. This was with a 5.00 gear. I wanted to run N2O so I put a 4.30 in it. On motor, ET's dropped to 10.38 @ 128. Under the same conditons. The gear killed it bad but, on the juice I revved it to the moon in the lights with the 5.0. It's all about sacrifice, right?

On one very light hit of NOS the car went 9.64 @ 141 OK enough. I could have jetted the system but I was happy enough.

In went the Jerico with a 3.08 1st and the Mcleod Soft Lok. I drive it on the street so I cranked in 13 turns. No counterweight. With the 4.30 gear the fist pass was a 10.13 @ 135.40. leaving at 5000. I upped the leave to 5800. 10.01 with a 1 @ 135.78

I went right back and ran 10.01 with a 1 @135.81

Since then I've made a few passes playing around, no NOS, still with the 4.30 and it's pretty much all it's got. By the way, I shift the 3-4 about 30 feet before the first stripe!

Bottom line. The Jerico was worth FOUR TENTHS AND SEVEN MPH! Granted it was a Glide and the car is way too heavy but still, look at the MPH.

If I shifted each gear a little higher (I don't really look at the tach, The shift light is set at 7k just to warn me, the play back shows me 74,76,76) I could drive it through in third! I have a 4.86 assembled so I will run that but, it could use a 5.14? The tire is about 96"rollout and does not grow. It's a 13" tire on a 15" wide rim.

I spoke to a lot of stock guys (you know who you are), thanks for the input. I got very good advice some some of the fastest guys.Steve, Tom, Ed and others. Now put the Jerico in the B stocker. I can honestly say that for me, the automatic is harder to drive and not as consistant. The stick is more natural. My Reaction times not counting the first pass because I wasn't even looking at the tree, were .003, .031 . at night on incandesant. In the sunlight I have been right at an average of .050. I have not run the LEDS yet with the stick.

Oh yea, this worked good for the Two Step. I put an adjustable stop on the clutch pedal. Simply welded a 7/16 nut to the pedal, welded a big flat washer to a long 7/16 bolt (thread not head!) I made sure that it contacted the firewall perfectly flat. Right where it contacts I put a starter button. When the clutch is pushed in far enough to hit the switch the Two Step will come on. I wired so it will only work if the Line Lock is pressed. It really wasn't an issue because I didn't come near the switch on the gear change, but it's the right way. I think. It worked for me, is the point.

Sixty foot times were almost a tenth faster BTW."

Again, that was a quote from another fellow.

The last automatic I drove ( spring 1981 ), I then converted to a 4 speed with a good shifter. My experience was almost identical ( MUCH slower car of course ).

Bottom line, as Steve also said.... SPEED... SPEED !!!
The faster you go through the traps, the more HP that made it to the rear wheels... and with the stick, THAT will ALWAYS happen
:cheers

I would like to also mention...
For me, it's not just about going faster. It's to be at one with your machine:deal

[Phil Reed]

I've basically been going to build an all original drivetrain for my 63...that is until about 3 years ago. We built our first stroker engine and I was hooked!!!! I love torque and the stroker was unreal!!!

The real drawback to the drive train was the transmission. Gotta have a 4-speed....I'm not an automatic guy!! Found the solution for me.....Labor day 2 years ago, my wife and I were in North Sioux City, SD. Stopped to see a customer. He had a black, red 62 bubbletop with a 474 stroker. He wanted me to drive but I declined...just wanted to ride and FEEL the power. Was I surprised....car had a 3:55 posi. We left the stop light like it had 4:56's. Pulled hard all the way thru the gears...even extra ones!!! Got out on I-29 and was running 85MPH down thru Sioux City and was only showing about 2100-2200 on the tach. WOW!!!!

Jim was running a Richmond 5-speed. That was the first time I've ever ridden in one. I'M HOOKED!!!! I think low was 3:23 and with the 3:55...we had great acceleration. But 5th gear is over-drive...you can cruise anywhere and not over rev the engine. My 63 is a bench seat Impala 4-speed like the bubbletop. Jim said the shifter came up thru the floor board about one inch behind the stock location. Might not work with a console ...don't know. He had to fabricate a new rear trans mount but the whole swap was easy. I've had some tell me the 6-speed will handle more horsepower, probably like Michael's got, but for me, I think the 5-speed is my solution.

GOTTA HAVE A CLUTCH!!!! I'd rather miss a shift than be consistent with an automatic!!!:D :D

[SS425HP]

Phil, just remember one thing. How much cam are you going to run??????? Mine would jerk your neck off at 2200 RPM. Is not smooth, yet. I need about 2700 to be smooth. 2200 is lugging on my motor. Just watch you don't get cruising RPMs too low. A stock 63 409 400 cam might be ok, but I would hesitate to go any bigger and try to cruise at those low RPMs. Just a thought.

Fred

[Phil Reed]

Hadn't thought about that. Will be using a Crane street roller...probably .625 .650 lift...nothing too radical!!!!

Guess I better go with the 6-speed and 4:88s!!!!!:D :D :D

[hrlykngt]

Heres an old tranny b&M used to sell back in the day, looks to be a great combo, it was a turbo 400 with front milled off and a bellhousing with a clutch added to replace converter. I would love to try one, never actually seen one though.
Hope this attaches, you may have to save it to a file and magnify it, I couldnt send it full size.

[hrlykngt]

some more

[tmracing62]

The TH400 was selected for a mix of reasons, some good and in retrospect, some not. I wouldn’t do it again because this particular car would be more fun with a 4 or 5 or 6 speed manual. I usually try to get informed about the options, even at the extremes, and worry about how to make it happen later. But nothing’s going to happen for a long time because I have to recover financially from the build.

Just a guess, but this car is more of a wicked streeter than a racer. You never really know until a weekend or two at the track and until then, nothing is going to be changed much. But thanks for all the info and opinions because it really put me to thinking differently.

Aubrey – for some reason I am not getting the point – Jerico good or Jerico bad?

And Harley – that B&M – now that’s interesting. Never seen one.

[Impalaguru]

Phil Reed had a nice looking 4-speed hydromatic early this summer, maybe its gone by now. It looked like it still had an old B&M Big-Stick shifter on the side of it, too. I think those trannys were pretty tough. I read in Hot Rod a year or so ago about a guy that had one in a 55 Chevy gasser style hot rod, straight axle, grey primer, blue tinted glass, the works. He had a pressure regulator on his so the trans could shift smoothly or he could make it bark the slicks like a clutch car.
You could get those in various upper crust GM cars as well as some GMC light duty trucks (even the sedan deliveries, while they were still part of the truck series).
Could be another option.....
Ross

[threeimpalas]

ou could get those in various upper crust GM cars as well as some GMC light duty trucks (even the sedan deliveries, while they were still part of the truck series).

If I'm thinking of the same tranny your talking about, those things we a TON and soak up just about as much power. There was one still attached to an eBay W-motor and it was huge. Not exactly something I think you'd want in a wild performance oriented street car.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

TM...

Here's the low down:

Jerico............. GOOOOOOOOD

Jeritol............ BAAAAAAAAAAD

HHHMMM???
I hope I wasn't too metaphorical:rolleyes: ?

Jeritol... as in Geritol ( you know... that medicine for woman and older folks;) )... coincides with the appropiate applications for Dr Torbeck's transmission design.

Maybe I'm just weird. One of the guys who works with me had come up with that. I thought it was PERFECT:cheers !

[hrlykngt]

Have been doing some more searching for info on the transmission I posted, this setup was used early on in the torqueflight trannys then later gms turbo 400s apparently they were very popular with the altered and fx classes from around 1966-1973. They must have held up very well. They were used with a racing bellhousing and your choice of clutch and pressureplate. You could turn up the revs as high as you wanted and dump the clutch then shift with the consistency of the automatic. From what I have read the advancements in stall converters, planetaries, and the valve body modifications pretty much made this setup obsolete. Still though I believe it would be very fun to run one.:)

[SS425HP]

We used turbo 400s in the funny car in 69 and early 70. Saw one put in reverse at 200 MPH, with no disasterous results. Was the only way to get stopped at Lions when on fire, chutes burned off, and fire coming through the fire wall where the brake pedal was. Tranny lived, as well as the driver and car. Both were singed a bit, though.:eek:

[dq409]

Early MoPars had a Clutch-Flight trans if I got the naming right.
Same principle,,, geritol with a clutch.

OH,,,,, And thanks OZ,,,,, I feel worse with every thread about my geritol,,,,,,,,

Someday I`ll convert it over to a stick,,,but,,,, it`s what I have now and by that I have to justify it as being the trany to use !!?? heeee heeee

Once I get the rest of the car the way it should be then I`ll feel better on the conversion to a stick,,,,dq