Clones...

[merc50]

Gee, I never had a problem with clones at all as long as the owners were upfront about what the car really was etc. Shelby clones never bothered me at all, I found Mach 1 and Boss clones kinda odd and not worth the trouble. On the chevy camp Z28's and SS's made from lower models never really caused me any problems either. My 62 Bel Air bubble top is a clone...it was a 6 banger car. The vin tells the story, and the trim tag is gone. The guy who built it went above and beyond to find all the proper 62 bits to make a really good clone...it is a 62 409 car now and the clone fact never bothered me...the point of all this...a guy looking at the car was all over the thing excited it was a bubble top 409, I told him it was a clone and he got real odd...and from what I can gather he wants one, is looking for one, was going to see if he could buy mine, and turned on it when he found out it was a clone and "FAKE" and "COPY" were terms used. I sensed dislike for the car. What do you guys think of 409 "clones?" I have run into SS chevy guys, Yenko guys, and Shelby guys who did not like clones and were all about hating the "fakes" and all...as rare as a good bubble top 62 is I can't see a problem. What is the view from the gallery on 409 clones? I imagine many a Impala have been bumped to big block W's...anyone else got a "fake" like me?

[Loafer409]

Mine ain't Factory...but it ain't a clone either...09

by the by, I have not problem with a clone as long as a guys up front aboot it, heh...09

[MRHP]

I do not have a problem with clones. The only problem I would have is if I was going to purchace a clone under the presumption it was an original car. I am not a numbers matching kind of person. I don't know if that is good or not. Keep the clones coming!

[MK IISS]

I do not have a problem with cloned cars and a car that is not #s matching although I may have given the impression I do because of the discussion on '61 Impala SS cars. I just have a "special thing" for a real '61 SS. In addition I have never seen a cloned '61 SS advertised as a clone. It is always represented as a real SS.

If I owned a 6-cyl '62 BelAir Spt. Cp. I would convert it to a 409 or at the very least a 327/300 4-spd.

Richard

[09pwrd55]

Clones; Hopefully we can do this poll without starting another war.
Personally I always wonder what the difference is between a clone and or a rebodied car with a change of tags, a non numbers match engine, or a dealer prepped (converted) car.

To Me their all ,cool, uniquie and perfectly acceptable, and can be driven and enjoyed. (i.e. a real 63Z11 on a cruise down main street, I,d be to nervous to enjoy the trip watching for someone to pull out of a parking spot into an aluminum front end)

If you cant boil the rear hides, is it really worth having?????

09PWR.

[fatride]

If it came from the factory it is original, if it is modified it is a hot rod, Who cares? Some gear head or a group of gear heads thought of both of them! It is nice to have original unmolested cars around but the price for these cars has gone way beyond reason. If I had a Z11 clone I would be whipping the wee out of it on the street and strip, if I had an original I would sell it and buy a clone and run the wee out of it on the street and strip! Right now I have a 1960 Impala that came from the factory with a six and power glide, it now sports a 409 with a (heaven forbid) Ford 9" rear, Detroit locker, 700R4 tranny, disc brakes, three two's, B&M floor shift, air bags, three piece drive shaft, headers, after market ignition, electric fan, tach, after market wheels, radial tires, etc,etc. Although I don't abuse the car and treat it like it's a live thing, I run the wizz out of it on the street and strip. Who do you think is having more fun, the guy with the original or me??? Sign me , No trailer Queen.
:cheers

[MK IISS]

fatride: A Z-11 clone in Tarpon Spring is for sale. Asking price: $89,900.00

Richard

[1958 impala]

ALL ORIGINAL IS ALL RIGHT BUT HOW MANY OF THE SO CALLED ORIGINAL CARS ARE OUT THERE MY GUESS IS VERY FEW MOST SO CALLED ORIGINAL CARS HAVE MANY AFTER MARKET CLONED PARTS ON THEM.
FOR ME ID RATHER HAVE A HOTROD ANYDAY.:) :cheers

[threeimpalas]

I've never seen the point in "cloning" a car. If you want a car that makes people think it's the "real deal" why not just get the "real deal" from the start? Especially when it can cost just as much, if not more, to make a "proper" clone than it would to buy a non-clone.

I guess you can say I'm not really a big fan of the faux Impala SS (or Z11, Z16, Cobra, etc) cars. Doesn't matter if you say it's a clone or not, you're still trying to initially pass it off as the real thing.

[dq409]

No moan on a clone !!

Mine`s a ccccl,,,ccllo ,,,clloon,,,clone !! OK ,,THERE I SAID IT !!

No problem,,,,,,

A very solid Impala SS, factory air, auto, non-factory 409 !!

I get the guys ask if it`s a REAL 409 car,,,,, I have learned which ones I will be honest with,,,, or less then honest to !

The ones I`m less then honest towards,,, I just smile and say "sure it is" and wink.
Don`t want to ruin their day !! THEY want it to be an oridginal !!
It don`t matter,,,, it`s not for sale and they really don`t want it.
All they want is to believe it`s factory.

One quick look over and it`s obviously NOT factory.

The ones I`m honest to know the difference or would like to believe they do. Or don`t care and like the car for what it is NOT for what it isn`t !!!

How many times have you been honest and told them it`s not factory and they kinda thumb their nose and walk away,,,,, thinking to themselves that you are trying to pull something?
Or the cars a fake and no matter how nice it is it`s stupid????

But,,, It`s OK to put a big block into a Chevelle or Camaro or Nova and no one cares, or few do anyways.

My car ,,,,, My way !!

The cars cool,,,,, the engines cool !! I`m COOL !! http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/b/glasses.gif LOL!!!!

Build it !!,,,Love it !!,,, Drive it !!,,,,Show it off !!! ,,,,dq

[348NUT]

FOR ME ID RATHER HAVE A HOTROD ANYDAY.
Me Too!:D
I'm with Loafer; stick it in something it didn't come in and then when you get the original question you know exactly the type of person who's asking the question!:rolleyes:
The only thing that ever bothered me was when people dress up a 210 (or a Biscayne for you Late Greats;) ) in BelAir trim and then put the scripts on too. :scratch It ain't a BelAir! Change all the trim you want; but don't call it what it isn't. Sorry if I just offended someone here. Just my opinion.:) NUT

p.s. Might as well put a Z28 or MachI script on it. What's the differance? (O'.K. maybe that's a little harsh;) )

[rwagon57]

I'm glad people do factory correct restorations, that way we know how the cars looked when they left the factory, but as a friend who owns 4 '32 Fords - all different - told me, "When you see one restored 32 Ford, you've seen them all".

I do hot rods and drive the wheels off of them, I appreciate the factory resto car, but the modified car is the one I study.

Clones are fine as long as it isn't being passed off as the real deal, but for my interest it falls into the same category as factory correct resto.

Bottom line, I tend to take DQs approach when talking to the public at shows or cruises, if they ask questions that indicate they are knowledgable I tell them the absolute truth, if they are asking because there Dad, Uncle, Grand dad, friend , neighbor "had one just like it" I tell them what they want to hear:)

[tripowerguy]

The guys who want an original can have it. But when you bought a high preformance car you bought it for high preformance. That means the factory tires, air cleaner and exhaust manifolds went in the trash. I cannot remember one car that was driven by a name driver that was anywhere near original. I know that to win at car shows you have to be all original and for those that want that that's ok but a car that has been put together is just as good as an original in my book just as long as no one is trying to make high dollars by lying about it. My car came with a 283 and I put a 348 in it. People used to look in the engine compartment and yawn now they look and start talking. I don't try to put the car off as a numbers matching car, they can look at the headers, chrome tips and wheels and know differently. Build as many 409 cars as you want that means more repop parts for my car because there is a wide spread market. If only original cars are out there then the 409's become like Hispano Suza's, so few that they disappear into museums. :) Roy

[63z11]

I am with some of you who say it depends whos asking, when it comes to is it real. I am not a fanatic about numbers, cant afford to be! I own a rust free 63 impala super sport powered by a 409 thats real enough for me. Id rather hear wow did that car really go 11.80 than does it really have a QB block?:deal

[fatride]

I still run the six cyl. emblems on the 60. If you couldn't hear it or see the 2.5" duals hanging out the back with the hood closed Who would know! If I really wanted too wizz the the Super Sport Guys off I would find a place to put SS script on it. I have been thinking for the last couple of years of putting the stock bias ply tires back on for fun with the dog dish hub caps. I'll bet I could fry the tires at 40 or 50 mph just by hitting passing gear! What a hoot!
:beerbang

[Tom Kochtanek]

I have a clean original '62 SS that I am retoring. Bought it off the original owner. I'd prefer to think that they checked the wrong box when the ordered it (283 PG, no posi). So i am correcting that :)

Is it a clone? Yep. Do I care? Nope. Do I care what others think? Nope. If I could get an unmolested factory original 409 car, would I purchase it? Probably, if the price was right. But then I might want to preserve that to the point where I don't drive it to save it's value, etc., etc.

If you make a clone for yourself, don't try to pass it off as a commercially unique original, and aren't even interested in selling it, EVER, then why care what anyone else thinks.

As a hedge, and just smart business principles, I am keeping the factory stuff in storage just in case someone in the future wants to take out the 409 four speed and make it a 283 two barrel PowerGlide. Who knows!

Cheers,
TomK

[Impalaguru]

I had a clone 63 ss 409 4speed. It was originally a 300hp 327 4spd ss but the 327 bit the dust sometime in the 70s, years before I was even born. When I bought the car it had a nicely built and STRONG 65 327 that I eventually replaced with a 65 truck 348 block that was bored to std 409. That engine ran really good!!! I had a lot of the factory parts and at first glance it looked original but it wasn't and I never tried to hide that fact, not even for a second. Lots of guys at car shows acted like I had just ran over thier dog when I told them it wasn't original. But they didn't own an original 409 car or did they ever!!!
I was even yelled at over the phone from some big shot collector from DesMoines who told me I DESTROYED my car by putting a 409 in it. Hello? the original 327 block was toasted durring the Carter administartion! It wasn't original to begin with!
There is actually legal action you can take with someone trying to SELL a fake car. I read a good post at 442.com about this subject. The webmaster had told the seller that he would run the VIN every few months to see if the car was sold and he would then inform the new owner. He said the seller either re listed the car or parted it out.
We all love these cars, but the ones that try to exploit them just for their own personal gain really make it tough for honest guys like us.
Ross

[dq409]

WAIT !! my Impala`s not a clone !! wheeew,,,

It IS a factory SS car !!

Just has a bigger and better heart transplant !! heeeheee

:D :cool: :cool: :D ,,,dq

what "is" stupid is a small block powered car running 409 flags !!

[merc50]

In case ya care, this is the car the guy turned his nose up on...I never said it was a factory 409...I was up front about it...I told him the guy who built it went above and beyond to get the right intake etc. for a 62 409...it is a numbers matching clone more or less. I like it, if I were to sell it it would bring good money becaues it is a good solid dent free good trim car. I won't ever bring the 45 or 50 a numbers matching original will...don't bother me. I guess I do have to admit it did bother me how the guy looked down his nose at the nasty ol "copy/fake" car. Hell, it is in better shape and cleaner than some of the real ones I have seen. Go figure...can't pleas everyone I suppose.

http://photo.starblvd.net/merc50/2-3-1-1065030313?m=0&pg=1&ro=2&co=0

I also did get a good laugh at the same guy when he then moved his attention to the gold 32 in the background...he mentioned it was pretty cool for a glass 32...I asked him how he could tell it was glass and he said if you knew them you can tell...never did let him in that is my 32 and it is a steel unchopped car...ah well.

[fourspeed409]

I have a different outlook on clones than most of you. I consider the body a bolt on pice, same as a set of spark plugs or cam. If you had a # matching 62 bubble top with 409 4 speed that the body was rotted out, I see nothing wrong with using a 6 cyl car body to replace the origonal 409 body during a restoration. Now swaping the ser # gets a little sticky with the law but I believe that if you use some portion from the 409 body such as the cowl it may be ok (I am not a legal expert and in no way saying that this is ok to do without some legal reaserch).
As far as buying a 6cyl car on ebay and swaping in a 409 and getting a serial # from your buddy that has a vin tag tucked away in his sock drawer and selling it as the real deal, that is wrong.
As far as my car goes it is a 6cyl car, that will keep the 6 cyl vin tag. I could care less about all this #s matching stuff when buying or building a car. I would rather have a clone with headers, injection, jerico tranny and a 200 hit of nitrous that would stomp a mudhole in a factory aluminum front $200,000 Z11 at the race track.

Shane

[dq409]

Merc,,, Those are the people I`m talking about !!

But,,,,,,You got the last laugh !!!

It didn`t take long to figure who to say "sure it is" and wink at,,,

[threeimpalas]

Originally posted by merc50
I asked him how he could tell it was glass and he said if you knew them you can tell...

If you know them well enough you can tell if it's a glass car or steel just by looking at it, although it's rather tough to do via pictures. It'd be impossible to tell whether the Deuces in the linked picture are glass or not. Just not enough of the cars shown.

[merc50]

Actually the drip rails on both 5 windows is the dead giveaway...the few companies trying the put drip rails on five windows did pretty good but they are thicker and you can tell them pretty quick in person. The fact that they are both unchopped also used to be another giveaway...but two companies in the last several years have done unchopped five widows. I can tell most glass roadsters and brookvilles from real roadsters (at least 75% of the time) given a few mins...but you really have to be used to looking at 32's to catch it and a picture is too hard to tell like you said...gotta be in person. The thing that catches me is a really worked over real 32 roadster that looks like glass form it really getting smoothed in the seams and such.

*edit...just realised the drip rails cant be seen in that pic...the guy my story is about was at a different show than that pic...I let my buddy drive the 62 out and I drove the 32 and we camped out behind the 62 because it had the chairs in the giant trunk...not that it really matters.

[Fran Preve]

Many years ago I bought a 1967 Tempest that was made up to look like a GTO, poorly I might add. When I sold the car I made up a statement "I, Fran Preve, sell one 1967 Pontiac Tempest made up to look like a GTO to............................................ for the sum of xxx", then I had the buyer sign it. I put it away. A couple of years later a lawyer called asking me if I sold a car to John Doe. I said yes. He said "did you know it wasn't a GTO?", I said "Sure did, so did he, he signed a statement saying so, do you wnat to see it?". Silence.................... . If I hadn't I might have been in deep doo doo. As it was that was the end of it. Word to the wise.

[Fran Preve]

Back in the late 80's when I was deeply involved in the numbers game I was invited to various club events to give seminars on big block production. I was asked how to identify an ORIGINAL engine based on what I knew about how we built them at Tonawanda. I was as helpful as I could be. The people at national events were VERY picky about identifying a car as being ORIGINAL before they paid the BIG buck buying it. Wouldn't YOU?. An ORIGINAL car backed by paperwork and being passed off as a REAL car is worth a lot more money than a "made up" car or one that could have been over the years.

You'd be surprised how paranoid and fanatical some of these guys are. You'd also be surprised their reaction when I told them how we built the motors, and how a car that had impecable paperwork but a date code or stamped number out of line could very possibly be real. The look of relief on the sellers face, or shock on the prospective buyer!.

As to how you answer a "lookiloo' with an assinine question, it's up to you. You wanna put a '09 in a 283 car and make it look "real" DO IT!. Drive it, enjoy it, have fun, just when you sell it don't sell it as being "real", be upfront.

[Super(sport)Man]

Originally posted by dq409
what "is" stupid is a small block powered car running 409 flags !!

Ya know...I'm half-tempted to pull my (currently .030-over) 400 out, and have it bored to 40-something just so I can put a "409" script over the flags on the fender!:beerbang Would you be approving then? :deal :D :D :D

[Rockfish39]

Originally posted by fourspeed409
I have a different outlook on clones than most of you. I consider the body a bolt on pice, same as a set of spark plugs or cam. If you had a # matching 62 bubble top with 409 4 speed that the body was rotted out, I see nothing wrong with using a 6 cyl car body to replace the origonal 409 body during a restoration.

Shane

I cant say that I disagree with Shane. This whole topic reminds me of an episode that happened some 15 years ago. I ran into this guy that happened to buy a 1970 Road Runner Superbird for $10,000 . The car was a factory HEMI car, but was severely rusted out, including the roof. (I think that all SuperBirds were factory equipped with vinyl top). Very typical of cars that spent any amount of time unprotected from the elements in Michigan and Ohio.

He had it hauled to Virginia in hopes to restore the car. OF COURSE, Properly restored Charger Daytonas and Roadrunner Superbirds can command a healthy pricetag. Especially if outfitted with a 426.

At the time, many of the body panels and patch panels were not yet available in reproduction. Most body shops here would'nt touch it, and the ones that would even quote a repair estimate , started at the $15K mark and went up from there.

The guy was perplexed as he didnt want to see his "Winged Warrior" all hacked together, and he didnt want to spend 30K at a body shop either. He started asking guys around the local club scene for advice. When he asked me, I told him that he should pay for plane fare and travel to LA to attend the Pomona show. Buy something there with no rust and drag it back here. Remove and replace the entire body, save for the SuperBird ONLY pieces. Dont buy any car sight unseen, though


Whether or not it was my advice that he listened to , is unclear to me, but eventually He did travel to Pomona and bought a rust free, plain-jane Plymouth RoadRunner. Nothing fancy, but rust free.

He had two legally clear titles, two cars, and all the parts needed to build one SuperBird.

I imagine that he swapped the K member (you have to that with a HEMI) and the data tag and VIN onto the rust free body, but so what???

In my book, he has a factory original, codes correct HEMI SuperBird. All he did is replace the main shell body and doors.

Id rather see that than to see some unscupulous body shop hack togther a body decayed by corrosion damage with junk sheet metal stock and a ton of plastic body filler.


Having THE orginal door, in lieu of a rust free replacement, means about as much to me as having the ORIGINAL air in 30 year old spare tire.

For what it's worth....

Rock :cool:

[CarlK60]

Hey guys interesting topic, sounds like a couple things i have done, a couple of you wont like. hehe First, my 60 Impala 4 door sedan, factory 348/TG car, last year put 307/TH350 in, this year putting 283/TH350 in (changed mind since signature) yet it still retains front and rear 348 emblems, why, first because they were there and dont wanna drill more holes, and second I like them better than small block emblems. The other thing, my 60 biscayne 2 door sedan, factory 6 cyl/PG car. I will be installing a 348 (hopefully bored and stroked to 427 :D ) and hopefully a 4 spd. It will have 348 emblems. The stock Biscayne trim is boring and I like cars that GM never built, so Im loading it up with Impala trim and interior, and it will have Impala on the quarters and dash. Though the front fender trim and dash will be Belair trimmed (its how I like it) Itll be lowered, have 17s, purple w/gray silver flame paint. It will be nowheres near stock or for sale. ever. Although it really cant be a clone since they never made it huh? :D Im just building it how I like it. Oh yeah, the hardtop was a 283/PG car, what ya think Im gonna do? ;) Clones only bother me when it is passed off as the real deal, build it how ya want it. My brother has a 69 Chevelle SS 396 and a Malibu smallblock, he restored the Malibu (hes waiting to do the SS) and he removed all Malibu emblems, put a SS hood on (cause he likes it) and he didnt have a bowtie to put in the grille so he borrowed the SS396 emblem from the SS, he HATED having the SS grille emblem cause he figured people tought he was trying to make it look like an SS, he now has the blue bowtie. Ive probly rambled on enough now. LOL

If it didnt come with a W, put one in.