Tonawanda strike.

[brisbane47]

Can anyone tell me the dates that the 409 heads and blocks were cast at the Central Foundry Division (CDF)? I think it was in 1963, but would like to nail it down a little closer. Thanks, TS

[Fran Preve]

I've been trying to find this out from the plant, so far no luck, it's going back 40 years!. That said, who cares?. I mean, really, who cares?. CFD is the symbol used by most if not all foundry's, including Tonawanda. Whether it was cast here, there or anywhere (and at this point it doesn't look like that answer will be answered), who cares?. I was involved with what castings were used and when each new casting came into use for Mark IV's for years, questions, questions, questions. Why?. Corvette freaks just HAD to know!. Why?. Performance?. No. To be absolutely, positively, correct?. Unless your a mega buck collector, who cares?.

NOM, know what that means?. Not Original Motor. Solves the problem. I sit here asking myself, can I find out whether or not Tonawanda cast anything for 3-4-5 weeks in the fall of 1963?. Ya know, maybe I could. I'll try. But I'm asking myself, why bother?, WHO CARES!>

[SteveD409]

I guess BRISBANE47 cares, enough to ask the question anyway.

SteveD

[brisbane47]

In response to the snide reply about "who cares", Actually I do. I have two blocks and one set of heads with the "CFD" letters cast where the date should be. Due to my tenure with GM and the my time with Jim Rathmann Chevrolet and the NASCAR non-program, I suppose that I would understand what "NOM" would signify. But thanks for your input. TS

[Fran Preve]

Sorry if my answer sounded "snide", I typed a paragraph response, then erased it. I regret my initial response, I'm sorry, it won't happen again, I apologize. The fact is I don't care and should just keep it to myself.

[64ss409]

brisbane47

If your CFD heads are like mine, the CFD will be above the left two spark plugs. Above the right two spark plugs should be the Julian date. Bob has the Julian calendar on the home page under 348-409 date codes.

This one is 134 which would be May 13. My block is 155 and I forgot to look at the other head, but I think it is 115.

Ron

That cast date didn't turn out very clear.:cuss

[brisbane47]

Fran, no worries mate, sometimes things come out in a different manner than they were written. Ron, I will look tomorrow for the date mark. TS

[bobs409]

I for one am curious about the CFD block and this strike that supposedly didn't happen now. The whole idea of this site is to provide as much information about the w-motor as humanly possible all in one spot. When something mysterious like this comes up, it makes a person want to know all the more! :D (the fact that I have a CFD block doesn't hurt either) LOL

What one person doesn't know, another might so we'll keep digging. We may put an end to this some day. One of the nice things about this message board is different people that bring different things to the table. Power in numbers...

Continue on.... ;)

[MK IISS]

Why would Chevrolet have the W engine molds only at the Tonawanda foundry location? If the foundry in Tonawanda suffered some kind of disaster which shut it down for a period of time it would curtail production.

To me it would seem unlikely that all W engine blocks would be cast in Tonawanda and some have the " T " cast on the block surface and then some blocks also cast in Tonawanda have " CFD" on them. If they all came from the same molds in Tonawanda why didn't they all have the " T " designation?

Richard

[brisbane47]

Add one more fact to the discussion, the (CFD) heads that I have are cast with only two numbers in the area where the JULIAN three digit date should be. (24), (59). Oh well, like the man said, other than being curious and the history involved, "who cares". It won't make it go any faster!! (joke) Thanks to all for your input and pictures, I am going to build the one with the matching casting numbers at this time any way. TS

[brisbane47]

From my time associated with the GM mind set I can assure you that they had a number of molds, cores, ect. all ready in place at both plants. From the management side of the coin you know in advance when some of these events will occur, and if in fact there would be a disaster of some sort that could shut down production all of the automobile manufacturers have a "second source" plan. Think of the turmoil that one "loose cannon" in the non-racing program caused "Vince" and the gang!! ( They did not have a plan for that)... Good times. TS

[Phil Reed]

Brisbane47:

Julian dates started with one number...not three. IE: Jan 1 was 1, Jan 2 was 2 and on down the line. The fact that you have dates of 24 and 59 is correct. 24 is Jan. 24 and 59 was Fe. 28. The last day of the year would be 365.

Hope this helps you figure it all out!!:D :D

[brisbane47]

Phil, thanks for clearing this up . I would assume the year would be 1963. Thanks again, TS ( PS) Sprint cars are so much less of a problem!!

[Fran Preve]

I know, I should just shut up. There are molds, then there are "pattern numbers", there may be more than one pattern number for each mold. There are two problems involved with "duel sourcing" a cast iron part;
1) You just don't "turn on and turn off" the casting process, while it isn't a lengthy process it's easier for another casting plant ship Tonawanda small block parts which were used in both plants, i.e. Tonawanda needs to cast W block parts which cuts into small block casting so the "import" small block parts rather than shut off W block casting. Remember, Tonawanda was the only plant to build the W engine, other plants built the small block. Ummmm, a thought just crossed my mind, we know they built small blocks in Flint, ahhhhh, they also built them in St. Cathrines, Ontario, where did they get THEIR castings?. Oh, BTW, St. Cathrines is just over the bridge from Tonawanda. Could St. Cathrines have it's own casting plant?. If so would it be simpler to ship molds there, an hour away, to have them pour iron rather than ship iron from Michigan?. Flint was "prime" on small blocks, Tonawanda was "secondary" St. Cathrines built small blocks but don't ask me how many or what type.
2) To build a W block motor, which is what every seems to be obcesssing over, you need a block. And heads. And intake. And exhaust manifolds. And water pump (which we built back then). If you can't cast blocks you can't cast ANYTHING, so you need EVERYTHING. And while this site obcesses over W blocks, Tonawanda built very FEW of them in 1963 and 1964, they did however build MASSIVE numbers of 6 cylinders (including Corvair), and small blocks. So if the Tonawanda casting plant shut down, any reason, you can pretty much figure the whole PLANT shut down, for lack of iron.

Finally, after all that, judging by the number of W's built during those years, could MOST have been cast somewhere else because Tonawanda was busy building their "bread and butter" engines?. Then again, could the Tonawanda foundry cast ALL the castings needed to build a million engines a year (with 25,000 being W's in '62/63/64)?. It was a big foundry, but really.

NOW.........carry on......................................

[Fran Preve]

Brisbane, forgot, if a foundry goes down, and you duel source the castings, which plant do you shut down to supply the other?. I.E. Tonawanda goes down so they ship castings from Flint, which means Flint engine hasn't got enough casting to build THEIR engines so THEY shut down. Your comment on the "GM mindset" is flawed, trust me, you ain't got a clue. I worked for a GM engine plant for 32 years, and I've seen the "GM mind set" in action. Engine plants supplier foundry goes down, the engine plant goes down too and one of the other engine plants picks up the slack, if they can, depending on how long the "disruption" lasts. And I won't go into how much different the casting IRON is between plants. When we got Flint small block castings into Tonawanda when I was on the small block machine floor they EAT UP our tooling. The "speeds and feeds" were different, but that's a machinists topic. Trust me (again), the toolsetters got SERIOUSLY PO'd and machines went down frequently. And when we did get them in, we didn't get many.

[brisbane47]

Fran, again the way things are said. I am speaking form a field engineering view point, not in a factory, (production) for the masses, area. All I can tell you is that I have seen Vince Piggins and the gang at work when they pulled the plug on us after the Daytona 500 in 1963. After all the work on the MKII, it was "see ya". Most of my time spent was with Ray Fox, Smokey, Bill Stroppe, Junior Johnson, and Jim Rathmann (who hated full sized cars). I am not a real drag racer, but I got to drive one of the Z11 cars that we sent on to some one in drag racing. Any way, I am glad you survived your time with GM. After trying to get the "W", as you call it, to go fast, I went with the sports car scene. That is another story. See ya, TS

[Fran Preve]

Brisbane: Being an engineer as you describe you wouldn't know how manufacturing operated, that's not bad, but it gives you a COMPLETELY different point of view. I, on the other hand, worked in manufacturing, albeit as a union worker, but I saw things in a vastly different light. Unless you worked on the machine floor, on the assembly line, "in the trenches" you can't REALLY know how tings went, and more importantly WHY. This is nothing against you personally, I've met many engineers, both within and without Chevrolet, who didn't have a CLUE how and why we did things. It's a completely different world I lived in than you and others. The engineers planned for things to be done just so, but when the *hit hit the fan on the manufacturing floor nothing mattered but get the iron out. Engineers engineered parts and processes, but the machine floor had to make them, and do it with a budget, with time and cost restraints. That's why my previous two posts SHOULD if nothing else provoke readers to THINK a little, as I pointed out, there was more to what went on than meets the casual eye. That said,

I'd sure like to hear more about those "mystery" motors used in drag racing. Drag racing is my forte, and I read EVERYTHING on it from the early '60's on. I may have missed something, but I never, ever heard of ANYONE running a MK II in drag racing. Given it's reputation and rarity I'm surprised no-one ever mentioned using one or seeing one it in print. But hey, anything is possible right?.

[Fran Preve]

Brisbane: I'm sorry if I sounded more than a little harsh. I get what your saying, after reading Van Valkenbergs book I can see where the "field engineers" went, he lays it out pretty well. Drag racing back then wasn't very high on GM's list (in comparison to sports cars). You sound like a Van Valkenberg "clone", which is not a BAD thing, and from Chevy's point of view they got more information from that venue, plus it must have been easier to get into that "under the table" than drag racing, or NASCAR racing. That said, while I disagree with his opinion on the W (I leave off the block, everyone knows what I'm talking about), as being something it wasn't (intended for) a truck engine. Other than that his book is a "must read" if you want to know what went on inside Chevy concerning racing from 1955 to 1972, especially pertaining to sports cars. Anyway, Piggins did stuff no one else did, or maybe could. The tragedy was his retirement,then untimely death, oh what he could have told us!.

Time is passing, memories are fading, fast, and we, who call ourselves "historians" have to gather in as much information as we can, then BASED ON DOCUMENTATION, sort through it and make (hopefully) informed decisions as to what happened, and, for myself, WHY!. This is why my reply's to some posts are long, I try to tell what happened, and WHY. This topic is a perfect example, instead of things about just BLOCKS!, think about the rest of the engine parts you need. Then don't think JUST about the W, think about all the OTHER engines we had to build. It gets complicated at times. And the smallest number of engines we built from 1960 on was the W. Anyway, sorry if I offended (again).

[brisbane47]

Fran, I have a response for you that is quite lengthy. I am extremely busy at the moment with my race program, but will post by the first part of next week. TS

[Fran Preve]

Take your time, no one's goin'anywhere.

[1911]

Mr. Preve, I believe I know Brisbane from my youth. If I am correct, the highpoint of my visits to his raceshop was access to his machine shop. There I would see things that might show up in a hotrod type magazine- a few years latter. He is an interesting individual who was there and did that. r&d on the mk2 at daytona would interest you. my interest was in the aluminum pontiac trans-am stuff that He was working on at the time for GM. He's a wealth of information, when he feels like talking about it. Now that I know He's still around I think I'll pay him another visit myself. JC 70 375/396 chevelle

[Fran Preve]

I hope to hear from him more, we all can learn. My experiance is with making the motor so I look at it from another point of view. He's taking his time replying, and that's good because we're going back 40 years and I know for myself the more I think about it the more I remember, and the more questions I ask myself. I'll be frank, and you can test this yourself as your about my age, how much do YOU remember from when YOU were 25-30 and it was 1963-65?. Heck I can't remember what I was doing 10 years ago?.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Fran, funny you should bring up the question about memory! I was just discussing this same thing at a social gathering recently.

I seriously am of the opinion that I have a better remembrance of significant events (even trivial ones) from the 60s than I do from last week :) Must have something to do with the way we store long term memory. Or maybe we just like to "revise history" and make things better than they actually were... ?

I suspect if there was a constructivist learning theorist among us they could tell us why this is so often the case.

But for me, it's all quite clear:

The older I get, the better I was :) :) :)

I think that's why I got involved in early 1960s Chevies -- reminds me of a time I enjoyed being a part of. For you younger fellows, you may get these same vibes someday :)

Cheers,
TomK

[Fran Preve]

Tom, I hear what your saying. Those days, for those of us who lived them, were something special. Like you the fact "we", us old folks, don't see things the way our parents did at our age (today) came up in a discussion, or maybe something I read (I can't remember and it was last week!), something about "how old do you have to be to think your an "adult"?. I know many of MY friends are MY age or thereabouts (50-65). What are WE doing?. Drag racing, cruise nights, that kind of stuff. And half they guys doing that are also our age. I think us baby boomers lived at a special time in our history, ESPECIALLY if you were car guys or girls. And most of us are doing today what we only DREAMT about back then!. Pardon me if I'm skeptical about guys who would have been 18-20 back then buying new cars. But then I bought MY first new car when I was 18 (last years model), I was 20 when I ORDERED a new car, 22 when I bought a 1 year old Corvette, so I guess it ws more common that i thought. And I paid for it on MY dime, at times it took 1/2 my paycheck. I was lucky, my daddy was NOT a car guy in any sense of the word so I was on my own. Anyway, us old guys DO have selective memories, the only way you can really discuss what happened back then is to sit around a table and bat these things back and forth, one guy jogging another guys memory. as in "'member when?". My time with Smokey Yunick was when he was about 63, I last saw him when he was about 74, and his memory was pretty much shot. One by one we're losing those "old timers" from back then. The few that are left aren't all as sharp as they once were. Here's a point to ponder, those that remember Smokey was playing with Mystery motors, he was in his mid 30's, those remembering were in their mid 20's.

I can remember my parents saying "when are you ever going GROW UP!", like it was just yesterday.

[SS425HP]

And, we HAVEN'T grown up yet! Don't think I will, either.

Fred

[Fran Preve]

I hope none us do.

[Brian64SS]

Brisbane47,
I hope this helps answer your original question: My block has CFD cast into the back flange along with Julian date of 305 (November 1st). The heads are also CFD like 64ss409's post and are Julian dated 324 (November 20th) in the same place his are dated. I've mentioned before that this is the original VIN stamped block for my late December-'63 '64 Impala. So the block and head castings from November of '63 are CFD.

I understand why you care about this stuff - I think it's interesting too.

[brisbane47]

Fran, After some of your remarks about “not having a clue” and “being in the trenches”, I feel obligated to enlighten you regarding the place a “field Engineer” had in the “non racing” program of the early sixties. When I left Michigan in 1961 I had a (“W”) powered 1939 Chevrolet, my tools, a lot of fabricating and welding skills, three years open wheel short track driving, a Journeyman Machinists card, (earned the hard way) and one long year at MSU. (MSC at that time) By luck of the draw I landed in the middle of a” FUBAR” program at Jim Rathmann Chevrolet in Melbourne Florida that needed all of the above. GM would reimburse Rathmann Chevrolet for my wages. My assignment was to attempt to extract as much HP out of the production 380 HP 409 as possible within the rule structure and “legal” parts available for the “Grand National” cars of the time. It later turned out to be “by any means that would get by Norris Friel, the head of NASCAR inspection, who seemed preoccupied by what tricks Smokey Yunick would try next! All this was to be done to the end of putting a dent in the Pontiac long track dominance. It was immediately apparent that there would be no above board help from Chevrolet Division. What I also found out was Smokey Yunick had an arsenal of “west coast” parts for the Pontiacs with a GM part number. Chevrolet people didn’t like the Pontiac teams and they both disliked Ford. (And Holman Moody.) Rex White #4 and his Chief Mechanic Louie Clements and the # 11 team of Ned Jarrett were the Chevrolet teams that I would work with. Both Rex and Ned were on the track as observers at the time when I qualified for my “Grand National” License in 1962. The Pontiac teams did the number on Chevrolet at Daytona in 1962 again, and after that race I found out that there were three separate things going on at the same time. The 427 Z11 engine for the drag racers, the doomed 409 project, and the really secret MKII project at the Ray Fox facility in Daytona with the #3 car for Junior Johnson. I found a lot of reasons to use the dyno at Smokey’s shop (GM paid him for my time) as the Fox shop was just down the road, and I guess Ray liked me. I want to point out again; the MKII was NASCAR specific, not intended for drag racing! This should explain why you never read about one in that environment. All I knew was I could get as much HP out of the 409 that came from your plant as the Pontiac put out. We had purchased a complete Pontiac racecar by the “back door”. During this time I worked with Louie Clements and the #4 car from Spartanburg SC more than any one else. We had our own ideas of what to try. This is an “undocumented” story, Louie put the Pontiac engine in the spare #4 Chevrolet, and I put the 409 engine in the Pontiac. “Field Engineering” at work!! The results were that the #4 Chevrolet ran at almost an identical time as before and the Pontiac remained the same. From our “backward” viewpoint, something was going on in the under hood area. After we changed back we went ahead with some really crude under hood temperature measurements and found out there was a 35/40-degree higher difference at the carburetor of the Chevrolet. Louie cut a hole in the hood, made a scoop and the thing went 4mph faster at Daytona in the July heat! When all this was presented to Piggins, he tried to get the higher up brass to release a hood scoop. Not a chance, tooling costs would not support that idea. What he did secure for us was the Daytona facility later that year to do extensive testing for the prototype of the cowl induction that would also appear on the Z11 drag cars. All this time I watched the progress on the MKII and I can tell you that I had, and still do, have the utmost respect for the engineering team on that project. They were true “Design Engineers”, No Cad/Cam there!! I was at Daytona when Jr. Johnson lit their fire with the 166mph qualifying. I thought the Ford team would succeed in their protest to NASCAR that the MKII was not a production engine!! (Really?) Like their Holman Moody engines came from an assembly line!! As I remember it, Ray had to sell Ford one or two of the MKII engines in order for the Chevrolet MKII teams to compete. Jr. Johnson and another MKII won the 125 milers and Jr. had a valve spring problem in the 500-mile event. (A problem that would carry over to the MKIV) program later on. As you might expect, everyone in the Chevrolet camp thought we had the means to drive a nail in Ford and Pontiac!! Not so, about the time you and the rest of the guys at the engine plant were getting your check, we had our plug pulled!! I can tell you there is no real way to describe how you feel with no job and a baby two weeks away! That is where my remark about the GM mindset came from, you would deal with them at a plant level, and mine were issued from the top level. There would be no way that an employee of the engine plant in NY could know this program even existed. It would seem that from my spot on earth I had a totally different viewpoint than yours. I had been offered a Team Manager/Driver position with a three car sports car team, (Ferrari 250 GTO, Lotus 23B, and my car was the predecessor to the famous Jim Hall cars, a Troutman/Barnes Chevrolet powered car. Not a difficult choice. After a year of fun and games with that tribe, (lots of good stories) I came back to Michigan, raced everything I could strap into, (and still do), finished school with a BBA/Management, (while working as a tool room supervisor) starting an engine building facility that would become my life’s work, while enjoying a wonderful family growing up. I am satisfied with what I guess could be described as, “my time”; in a phase of “history” that we thought was fun. No one thought of it as some day being part of “history.” I am glad there are people like you that are acting as “historians” to put some of this down on paper, but you have to realize that there was so much going on that was not “documented,” because it “did not exist” that it would be impossible to record it all. There were others that devoted their time and effort to drag racing, which has it’s own story. I am a firm believer in the theory that significant events will forever remain etched in your memory. I have tried to word this reply a manner that would not offend the GM personnel that produced the engines, we each had our own part. I hope I have not offended any of my “Union Brothers”, every one takes their own path, and I happened to luck out on mine and do not regret any part of it. I have had the opportunity to live, work, (and a whole lot of other things); with some of the “legends” of motor sports, not just to read about it. I hope this “undocumented” information will help you understand how my world differed from yours in the early sixties. I thank everyone who responded to the question that brought this on!! I will leave you with my feelings that Vince Piggins did more for Chevrolet than almost any one else, and I truly respect him for that. He made things happen!! Here are two more “undocumented” stories that I can tell. When you race two 250hp hertz rental cars around the tri-oval, they won’t stay on the banking, and the radiators blow up!! And the food at the “Volusia Diner” was good!! See Ya, TS

[dq409]

One word,,,,,,,,, WOW !!!:D

[supernova]

I bet those rentals were impalas ;)

[Fran Preve]

Brisbane: When I said you and your engineers "didn't have a clue" it was from a manufacturing standpoint, I thought you understood that. That's the way it is, engineering has one view point, and maunfacturing has another. That you have a ton of inside information is wonderful, and I'll put you in touch with someone who REALLY needs it. As for myself I'd LOVE to sit down with you and a couple of other guys who know MK II's and REALLY thrash all this out, it should be done, and soon. As for myself, from a "historical" stand point, I want to see the FACTS put down on paper, and throw out some of the "maybes" and "I thinks". The Mark II story has never been told, fully, and can't be in posts here.

That said, again, I look at things ffrom "down on the floor" perspectives", and everything you spoke of here means zero to me FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE!. I didn't work for GM when they chopped you guys down, didn't even race or drive GM products. Now that's I've worked for GM for 30+ years, and been into only GM for most of that, and having talked to Bunkie about that time, I look at it differently. GM quit active participation in NASCAR and drag racing and Ford and Chrysler PLASTERED them!. Oh how different the racing world would have been in 1964/65/66 if GM had stayed in it!. Oh my god what Chevy could have built!. But they never did, and Ford and Chrysler dominated the scene. But I and my friends at the engine plant didn't do you in, and you guys had a COMPLETE handle on what to do and how to do it, and the guys in product promotion didn't do you in, and Ford and Chrysler didn't have product that could put us in second place. You were done in by the 14th floor, their fear of government intervention, and the fact we had over 50% of the car market.

And there dear Brisbane is where your problems laid at the time. GM had 50% plus share of the market, and was going higher. The government "trust busters" were looking to bust GM up, safety was becoming an ever bigger subject, and in the end GM cut back on racing out front, and put it behind the barn. As far as they were concerned so what if GM didn't slap Ford and Chrysler silly at the drag strip and circle track, they weren't behind in the sales race, they were ahead, TOO far ahead!.

I'll have someone get in touch with you who needs your input, and tell Richard I said Hi.

[Fran Preve]

Went out in the garage, had a cigar (can't smoke in the house, and it's 25 degrees!), thought things over. S'more:

Smokey left Pontiac and went to Chevrolet when Bunkie left Pontiac and went to Chevy. Smokey was told about the new "mystery' motor and clamored on board. The Mystery motor was not a "production" motor, but the Ford was, built by Holman Moody or not. Your right about Chevy having to "sell" motors to Ford, Ford said to NASCAR "if it's a production engine anyone should be able to buy one". So NASCAR told Knudsen he HAD too sell them to Ford. And remember this was during speedweeks!. So Knudsen to Smokey to ship two motors to Ford. Smokey blew a headgasket and REFUSED!. Too bad Smoke'm, that's not a request, that's an ORDER!. So one way or the other two engines were shipped to Ford. That's not a story but a documented fact, and I asked both Smokey and Bunkie about that, both said it was (Bunkie laffed about it, Smokey didn't). But if they were to race them at daytona it was required by NASCAR. You would know more about this than I would, but Smokey was ALWAYS down on the W block, how much did he "experiment" with that motor?.As far as I know he went right from Pontiac to the mystery motor at Chevy. When I talked to him he had NOTHING good to say about the engine.

The shame of it is when Chevy engineers decided to make the Mark IV a truck engine used in passenger cars rather than a passenger car engine used in trucks. That's the part of the story I've yet to have someone discuss. The Mark II COULD have been developed into a serious race motor that was used in passenger cars (or visa versa) where the Mark IV was designed as a truck engine used in cars (with two different deck heights). It was heavier than any other GM big block (when they were redesigned). If they had split the difference between truck deck height and passenger deck height, lengthened the rod to where it SHOULD have been (.250 longer), left the bore stroke 4.310/3.65 for passenger cars it would have been a much better engine. They changed the B/S in February 1964 by the way. Anyway there must have been two different engineering groups working on the Mark IV in it's developement. But then that must have been going on when you were involved in the racing part of the Mark II down in Florida.

[1911]

yup, thats him. TS, you still in the same place? I'm "JC" first met you when you had the hemi pontiac project going, used to try to get you to give up your secrets on Duane Coons 375HP nova. had the 70 chevelle 375HP. I plan on visiting you soon, as I couldn't find your phone number.

[JimKwiatkowski]

1911,I agree with your comments about the hitman 100% thats the same impression I got when I visited him (from your first post) maybe we should road test our vehicles to his shop at the same time?

[1911]

sounds good to me, just say when.

[JimKwiatkowski]

1911,I'll send you a private message through the club.I don't want to abuse this thread as a message service.One last thing I want to drive my 57 so it will be end of march or early april.Can you say what city you live in?

[brisbane47]

You may only visit with these three conditions; warm weather, a little advance notice, and BFSH. (For those of you not in the "time warp" that is Boones Farm Strawberry hill. See Ya, TS

[brisbane47]

10-4 Supernova, 250hp, 327ci, powerglide. Left them up by the Pure Oil station. TS

[brisbane47]

Fran, I will respond to your last commentary as soon as I get the time. I am thinking of a response that will be of interest to all. See Ya, TS

[Fran Preve]

Brisbane: Again I'll wait patiently, your comments are interesting and informative. My opinions about the Mark IV are only that, MY opinions, if it were up to me I would have strengthened the Mark II, a smaller and lighter motor. BUT!, Chevrolet needed a truly heavy duty engine for use in trucks and for marine use. From a manufacturing standpoint we could make either the MKII or the MKIV but not both without a second machine floor. Making the tall deck and the short deck wasn't a major change in tooling, but it WAS a pain in the butt!. Using a common deck height would have made our lives easier, and production less costly. Let's see what you can come up with. I enjoy this discussion by the way.

[Mark I]

Hi Fran!

Hitman, you have a pm.

Mark

[brisbane47]

Fran, in response to the 02-24-2004 post; I agree with you about the MKII story never being fully told. Unless some of the documents and some of the untold story of the racing end of it, plus the input of the engineers in the PPG it might never be revealed!! If that engine had not met such a quick end it could have been developed further and refined to a higher degree. Smokey was the master of jumping ship when the time was right!! He stuck pretty close to “Bunkie” and the MKII was where GM seemed to be going, (to me,) at the time. You are also correct about Smokey’s “opinion” of the “W” engine, he was quite vocal about it. But, all I could do at the time was to try and get the 409 to function with the parts at hand. So, most of the modified, (“service package”), NASCAR parts came from actual track time. I really wish I could have more involved in the MKII engine, but you can only do so much. They, Smokey and Ray Fox had their own groups. I do not recall ever blaming the people in the plant for anything, they would not know about or have any part of the racing program. Believe me, we knew where the ultimatum came from, but it always seems to be, “kill the messenger”, at the time. There were some angry people looking for jobs. Most of the “peon” teams had to run the 1963 season with the 409, with the exception of the teams that had the MKII engines. Like you pointed out from one of the documents. But, how long would they last without replacement engines and parts? All this did not interest me as I had “jumped ship” to the sporty car scene. I am planning on attending the “Gathering” in KC this fall. There are a lot of stories that I would not dare reveal in print! (Statute 0f limitations??) See Ya, TS

[Fran Preve]

Brisbane: Your addition to the site has been well received, I think that more will come out than ever before about the Mark II, all we need is more people who were INVOLVED with the Mark II and Mark IV to fill in what we all don't know or can only "deduce".
I've met people here who have filled in some blank spots, have you read the Chevy Rumble issue with the Mark II article?. And has Mark been in touch?. Now is the time, to much has gone by already. Keep your in put coming!.

[brisbane47]

Fran, True, with more input involved, the pieces become easier to put together. Would you be kind enough to share the date and issue of the article you mentioned? I would be very interested in what they had to say. I have built and raced many versions of the MKIV engine, I might be of some help in that area. We used to use the "over the counter" ZL1 blocks in the sprint cars until the cubic inch limit came along. There are a lot of aftermarket companies that make an excellent SBC style product that we can stay below the 410CI with. (Lighter too). It is 50 degrees in Michigan!! Time to go racing... See Ya, TS

[Fran Preve]

I'll do better than that, email me your address and I'll send you a copy (but it was in the January 1964 issue of Motor Trend).

I agree, those of us with direct or indirect information on the big block Chevy should put all our information in a pile and sort things out. While I don't have direct "hands on" experience with engineering the big block I have a TON of internal documents on production numbers etc. Plus a magazine collection that goes back to 1960, trust me it's HUGE!. This allows me to reference back to that time in our history. People like you and Richard Martin help to fill in blanks, it's a fun time.

Contact me at franpreve1@aol.com

YOU LUCKY DOG!, I'm looking at high's in the 40's for the next couple of weeks, I still have a month 6 weeks before I leave the cave!.

[brisbane47]

Fran, 10-4, I just sent it to you. Thanks, TS

[Fran Preve]

Hitman: just got it give me some time, up to watch the Oscars at the moment I'll reply later. Out. Uh, I mean roger wilco over and out.

[brisbane47]

Fran, The correct response would be; the Id, "N" number of your aircraft, with the letter designation, and either "roger", or "affirmative". Ha-ha. Thanks again, TS

[Fran Preve]

Ummmm, er, what about my boat?. Over.

[Fran Preve]

Hitman: it's in the mail, over.

[tegracars]

Hitman,

I have to say that your story telling is very interesting and easy reading. You obviously have done a lot for GM and have a lot of stories to tell.

Fran, you obviously have a lot of knowledge and stories to tell also. You just have a different way of expressing it.

We can learn a lot from the two of you, albeit different.

[Fran Preve]

I feel the love. Or do I.

[brisbane47]

Tegracars, I am glad you find this exchange interesting. I hope that I might tell some of the more interesting, (not printable,) exploits at the convention in September. Fran, I would bet that you were working at the plant in the mid-sixties when we were on our way to Owego, and Oswego speedway every weekend! I have to go generate income to support my, (racing,) habit. If any one is interested I will scan the aluminum block Pontiac project pictures and post them in a gallery. (This could take some time.) One other question for Fran, what is a "boat"?? See Ya, TS

[dq409]

Yes ,,, hitman Do post them !!! I/we love most anything GM did (in those years pertaining to racing)

And I must agree with tegracars,,,,,,,,,

BTW,,, what is a tegracar anywho?????

[tegracars]

DQ409,

T.E.G.R.A. are the first letters of a member of my family. (except R, my 2nd letter)

Cheers:cheers

[Fran Preve]

Kinda like an airplane only instead of being a hole in the air you throw money UP into it's a hole in the water you throw money DOWN into. Up or down at least your throwing money INTO, as opposed to a race car where you take the money and tear it up and throw it away!.

I'm an airplane nut (trust me), in 1968 my wife and I were either going to buy and airplane (tri-pacer/172) or a boat. After much thought we went with a boat. You interested in a few hundred copies of Trade-a-Plane?, Air Power?, Air Classics?, WIngs?, Flying?. That's each. Or how about a life time supply of RC planes, accessories, magazines?.

PS: Never into circle track in any form, strictly straight line. Are you still circleing or straight lining?.

[dq409]

Let go of the steering wheel,,,,,,,,,,, if it turns left,,,,,,SELL it !!:D

[brisbane47]

dq409, real race cars have stagger and no tread! To each his own! That is what makes racing of any type a real blast! Fran, thanks for the offer, but I don't have much time for reading. I had my own plane, Navion, for a long time but the cost of hanger space and the other expenses made it a very expensive toy that I could not find the time to fly. I just rent the things now! TS

[Fran Preve]

Ryan navion, great long range flyer. I hear you, rent if your not flying enough to make it cost effective.

[dq409]

Hitman,,, That was just a razz !!! I also think that any type of racing is RACING !!! Although I prefer straight line I do enjoy all types,,,,dq