Headers

[Fran Preve]

perusing Ebay I came up with a set of Belanger headers, new, being sold by showcars@newulmtel.net for "buyit now" $299. I don't know what a new set of race headers is going for but if your building a race 409 $300 (plus having them Jet-Coated) seems like a pretty good deal. Are good NEW headers still available for '09's?. I got a set of Phil Reed nickle plated headers for a 348/lo-po 409 new in the box I'm going to sell, but if I were building a race 409 I'd be after these.

PS go to Ebay, then Auto, then collector parts, then type in 348,409 in the search box, bunch of W parts there.

[Impalaguru]

Fran,
Are these tubular headers? Are they a custom job just for Phil or are they a special 409 thing? I'm sure they'd look pretty nice under the hood of an X-frame car!
Ross
PS, Are those ebay headers the 1 3/4" headers or did showcars get more 1 7/8"

[Fran Preve]

Impala: I'm not sure I understood you, but the one's on Ebay are from Show Cars by ?? out of New Ulm, ??? he's a long time 348-409 parts provider, the ones on Ebay are more a race header. The one's I have are nickle plated (look like chrome) and the box say's they're from Phil Reed (who is regularly on this site and also a long time 348-409 parts provider). These go out more to the side (in the direction of a stock manifold/head pipe) and are more for show than race. They're also small port, 348/lo-po 409 rather than the larger port hi-po 409. Whether he still sells them I don't know, I've asked him but so far no reply. I don't know how available headers are for W's, anyone????.

[dq409]

Those are the 1 3/4 Wilson/Ballinger type headers .
If they were 1 7/8 we all would order a set but,,,,,,,,,
Ebay headers (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2460716953&category=46098)
Exact same header design that has been on my engine since the late 70`s,,,,,,,,,except smaller tubes,,,

Another header guy that just doesn`t get it !! He WILL NOT make the 1 7/8`s,,,,idiot,,,,,,

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Fran, the headers that Show Cars sells are the "new" 1 3/4" version that are made by Wilson Header Manufaturing in New Mexico. These were orginally designed and built in 1 7/8" tubing ( THE IDEAL SIZE for a hot 340HP 409 or pretty much ANY street driven hi perf 409 ) by Belanger Headers in the early/mid 60's. The tooling and dies were bought by Walker Header Manufacturing ( not our member "Walker headers" ) in California. Finally, this tooling was bought by Wilson... I believe about 10 years ago.

Unfortunately, when I first joined this group of W block nuts ;) about 3 years ago, I made the mistake of going on and on about how much better they were (are ) than the goofy Hooker design, or the 3-times over priced Stahls. Eventually this caught on, and Wilson sold all he had and/or could build with the current materials ( read that "1 7/8" tubing" ) he had on hand. He has explained to me that he does not use 1 7/8" tubing for any other header that he builds... hence, he won't buy any more tubing in that diameter.

I have approached Mark Wilson about re-introducing the 1 7/8" tube versions. His response ? ..... If I make an order for a minimum of 100 sets !

Well....
Anybody here want to buy into an investment opportunity:deal ? !
I can use 10 sets. Need investors for the rest;) :deal

[Fran Preve]

Good information to know, mine I believe at 1 and 3/4, as I say street. I agree 1 and 3/4 is too small for a performance 409, even 1 and 7/8 could be bigger, 2". I don't understand this guys relutance to build the preferable 1 and 7/8 size, which would work on a smaller engine whereas as you state a 1 and 3/4 isn't going to work as well on a performance motor. I'm sure your input has been appreciated on this.

[walkerheaders]

as usual, Aubrey nailed the story right on the head. i once had those Belanger headers 1-7/8 they were originals from the 60s. a few years ago they turned to dust, but i kept the flanges.

i designed and made a near perfect set of flanges that even include the alternator mount. since i didnt use them on my 425car, there still hanging in the rafters.

I posted awhile back, that i would make the first set (any size) for an X frame customer, (his expense).. then i would create a jig, (at my expense).. then i would make a lot of approx. 10 sets from the jig (each set cost reduced by the number of sets ordered)

so far..... no takers

if i decide to make a set for my 09car, then i will build a jig from those and post the results and pictures.

currently the 09 car is in the trailer, surrounded by ice. my new 63 is in the shop ready for headers but it uses a tall deck raised port BB
so anybody who wants X-W headers of any size..........they are available.

[dq409]

Walker, What would the price be on the first set ?
And price on sets there after you have a jig?

Seems to me you could devide the cost of the first set into the jiged sets and sell quite a few !!!
I for one am in line,,,,,,

I think the problem is who wants to pay the higher price for the first set so everyone else gets the discount on the jiged sets,,,,,


Matbe you could take orders and then start production,,,,,

Lets see,,,,, Aubrey for 10 sets,,,, me for one ,,,,Thats 11 llready!!
Any one else ??,,,,dq

Maybe start a poll,,,,,

[63z11]

I could use at least 1 maybe two sets of quality headers. :deal

[Fran Preve]

Someone selling 348,409 parts on Ebay was also selling header flanges if that helps anyone.

[Impalaguru]

This might be a dumb question, but what is the difference between the exhaust ports on the 348/small409 heads and the hi horse 409 heads? I regularly see gaskets and header flanges, like the ones Fran spotted, listed as either for the small port W heads or the hi perf 409 heads. Someone please enlighten me.
Ross

[dq409]

Same as the intakes,,,,, Larger port for the HP heads,,,,
Those you see on Ebay listed like that are most likely from ShowCars and you can get the set you need after winning the bid.

I`ve seen the flanges that Phillips makes and they`re are great ! Not only are they thick but they also are cut (dip) down between the ports rather then going straight across the top of the flange to the next port. Gives a clean look to the headers!
I wish he had a photo of them on his site !!,,,,,
Phillips Exhaust (http://www.exhaustedbyphillips.com/)

[Tom Kochtanek]

DQ:

I clicked on that link and with my new speaker system cranked up and I woke the entire family up :) :) :)

I would be interested in increasing that number to 12 if we could amortize the cost of the first one into the rest of the builds. That way everyone wins. Might be an interesting cottage industry!

I have some stock '62 cast units that I was planning on using since the dilemna of header building hasn't been totally resolved as yet. I'm not able to gamble on being first, but would join others in pooling resources for a numbered build. Might even need two sets eventually. Keep me posted if this opportunity develops.

regards,
TomK

[walkerheaders]

http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=6249#post6249

all this has been said before on this site. maybe i will build the first set for my car, photo and show them to you then make copies available. that way, i take the beating on the first set and the replicating fixture. (you guys have gotten me thinking about dump-tubes and a cool set of headers on my red car) I'm sick of it looking like a stock restoration. i;m thinking of lettering it and it being a 41 year old legit A/S according to the 63 nhra rule book.

if i take this header-gamble, i would be curious to know how many people are interested in a set and what would be the popular size?

please know that i didnt join here to make a buck....and that i always tell customers to "buy them if you can" because custom headers are very expensive.

those $300 1-3/4 headers are fine for most people. (i've even thought of putting them on my own car)

i cant even get the materials for $300 for a set of bigger headers.

i normally make headers with 3/8 thick individual flanges (the centers are paired) and slip-on collectors. this make installation very simple, lighter and professional looking.

if you guys really dont mind the one piece headers, speak up.

how would you feel if i made a large tube header available that was suspiciously similar to the belanger design?

[Skip FIx]

Aubrey you are right about the Hookers. I hated having to dent or cut the fenderwell for that rear tube. Stil got my 30 year old set and the chrome on them! Tempted to change that rear tube. Also the two piece can be a pain to get apart!

[Steve "wully bully"]

Bob Walker,
We have an old set of Hookers on our street car that could use replacing. I would be interestted in ordering a set, along with Aubrey, Tom and DQ, if that would help offset some of the cost. I would desire the outlet in the same location if possible, since I just installed a custom polished SS exhaust two years back. (forgive me, I only know what the hookers look like, not the others mentioned, so I don't know how the rest exit, and we have custom built on both racecars).
Steven

[walkerheaders]

the hooker BB headers go under the frame. i dont know what there 09 headers look like.

The only way i can guarantee a fit on your exhaust system is to mount the collectors to the system and build the headers from there. most of my guys have 4 and 5 inch exhaust systems and this is how it's done. i'm 12 miles north of 75-80 dragway.

or you could replace them with the same part# headers. i wouldnt want to build a jig from your existing headers and copy them.

[dq409]

Originally posted by walkerheaders
[if i take this header-gamble, i would be curious to know how many people are interested in a set and what would be the popular size?
if you guys really dont mind the one piece headers, speak up.

how would you feel if i made a large tube header available that was suspiciously similar to the belanger design? [/B]

Bob, Give us an estamate on what a set would cost.
I think that the "suspiciously similar" design would be the way to go !!
I like the way they fit and and the location of the collector.

Count me in !! ,,dq

[SS425HP]

Yeah, Bob, ditto what DQ said

[63z11]

Walker, I agree a header of the same fit as the ballenger would be ideal. And I Know what a custom set of headers cost at a chassis shop. If the price was somewhere between the small tube ones and a custom set I could use at least 1 maybe 2 sets. I dont know what the other fellas have in mind, but I would really like a set of 2inch headers with a 3.5inch collector. If the 1 7/8 one were still available I would most likely run them. But if given a choice I think 2 inch would be even better. thanks

[Tom Kochtanek]

I would most likely defer to the advise of others who are more experienced in these matters. 2" sounds right to me, and fit is important.

Sounds like we may have a plan going on here :) I think we need additional decision making, then some recommendations for moving to the next level of actual implementation. Thanks for all your contributions to date. It's kinda like the upcoming convention -- always has been a good idea, we just needed a bit of a spark to ignite the fires. This may be it!

Thanks,
TomK

[64ss409]

I have a rusty, thin, leaky set of Jardines that I just took off. I don't know if they could be used for a pattern or not. Just thought I would mention it.

Now I wish this discussion had come up before I bought the Ballangers.

Ron

[dq409]

Bob, I have a set of the old headers if you need them to copy,,,,dq

[Gerry]

Walker,

Iam looking for another set of headers for my 61. What length pipes and what diameter collector would you build if you were to make them?

[walkerheaders]

seems like the most popular would be 2 inch headers with a 3-1/2 collector.
length unknown at this point, i would guess around 36 inch long primaries.
i would think that 1-7/8 could be substituted for those guys that want that size tubing.
i would also think that stepping sizes could be done as well.

i will need to research what this will take in material quantity, bend radius, available collector sizes and time involved per set.

it'll take some time to calculate and set this up.

my day job, children, momma, 3 impalas and the farm keep me quite busy.

i've never been asked to make multiples of anything so far. the only fixture i have currently is for BB flatbottom dragboats.

all the kooky stuff i make for these guys is a one-off.

i've said it here many times, "headers start at $950 and go up"

if i can figure a way to make many sets and they be affordable, you'll be the first to know. please dont adress me as walker.

[63z11]

Check your PM, Thanks

[SSpev]

hear is a set I picked up for 100 last summer. I think they are old Balanger (sp?) They are 1 7/8 tubes 36 inches long. They where on a car and never run.

[SSpev]

Don't know what these are just got them with an engine. They are 1 3/4. I had to repair one side. (not done)

[Geary Trussell]

Were do the Ballinger-Wilson headers exit? It's
difficult to tell from the Showcars Web site photo.
I am thinking ahead for the exhaust system
since my application is a mild performance
street engine and I need to run pipes and
mufflers. My application is a 59 348. I want
to tuck the exhaust under the car as much as
possible.

[59elcooldsuv]

I get the impression that all the headers you guys are reffering to are the sedan variety.

I've been wondering if anyone knows where I might find roadster-style headers for a W motor.

I plan to use my 348 in a street rod and suppose I may have to order the flange plates & weld my own. Any leads would be appreciated.

[Fran Preve]

Try Sanderson headers, they make a ton of street rod headers.

[59elcooldsuv]

Originally posted by Fran Preve
Try Sanderson headers, they make a ton of street rod headers.

I've seen their ads in the magz - so I know they have the block huggers. I was hoping to find the kind that you normally see on Tbuckets. I'll browse their website & see what they got.

thanx

I'm back. I'll certainly consider their CC409 if I end up with a body that has fenders. If I do a T then I'll need flanges & tubes. Sanderson doesn't say they HAVE flanges for W's - only generically says "flanges".

[Fran Preve]

Flanges on Ebay right now, possibly Sanderson could put 409 flanges on a header they already make for you, they make many different styles, including for a T bucket.

[dq409]

Phillips has the flanges I`ve ever seen for the `09 !!!
No pictures on the website but I`m sure Tom would email a picture to you,,,,,,dq
Phillips (http://www.exhaustedbyphillips.com/)