Flat Black

[Gus68]

Hey Guys!!! I was just reading some of the other questions about paint and body and got to thinking. I have allways thought about painting my 62 Bel Air flat black, but what would you use to get the results??? Black primer??? I have heard that primer does not seal, so is there a flat black paint?? If you cleared over it wouldn't that make it shiny??? Also does flat black show flaws as bad as gloss black? I am planning on making this a daily driver and I am not planning on having a show car perfect body, but at least respectable. Thanks guys.:cheers

[Tom Kochtanek]

It is my understanding that a good 2K primer will seal the metal against moisture, assuming preparations are correct and you use a good quality product line. There are lots of "primers" out there, and like religion, people will recommend this and that, depending on their particular "persuasion".

I read all I can, take good notes, compare advantages and disadvantages, then live by the resulting decision (sometimes I regret that, but at least I try to be informed!).

BTW, I have found that the ChevyTalk site, which has an extensive Body and Paint section, monitored by BowTie Ollie, is a great place to view and to post questions such as these. That's what I would do!

Best,
TomK

[JC327]

The "quick and dirty" approach would be to use tractor and farm implement paint from your local tractor supply store. But then you would have to decide between flat black and "John Deere" green! Actually they have many colors.

[droptop62]

There are clear coats with different degrees of flatness or gloss.
Although probably not a true flat black,.... would have a slight sheen.
Traditional hot rods and rat rods even customs have used flat paints for a long time.

[Rockfish39]

Originally posted by Gus68
.....so is there a flat black paint?? If you cleared over it wouldn't that make it shiny??? Also does flat black show flaws as bad as gloss black? I am planning on making this a daily driver and I am not planning on having a show car perfect body, but at least respectable. Thanks guys.:cheers

Gus, :scratch Im puzzled ... Why on earth would you want to paint an entire car flat black???

Of course, Flat Black paint is available in every form that you can think of. From simple spray cans that you buy at Pep Boys, to PPG enamel that you shoot from a spray gun. So thats no big deal...

Clear on top of flat black will look like hell....and no, it wont make flat black shiny. If you plan on experimenting with paints in un-conventional ways, I recommend getting a junk fender from a salvage yard and practice on that first...

If youre trying to cosmetically hide poor body work, black or dark color paint wont do that for you.

Bright White hides poor body work the best.

Good Luck...


:cool:

[SS425HP]

Seems to me that GM used to grade body panels. 3 different grades, A, B, C. Black and red got the A panels, White got the C panels, with all other panels getting the Bs. Red and Black showed the worst, so they got the best panels. White tended to show the least, so they got the C. Paint color sure will have a lot to do with the final product. If going black or red, you better spend a lot more time on the primer and sanding. The least little imperfection will show with black and red.

Fred

[posi857]

In visiting shows the last two years in California I can tell you that flat black is somewhat common. Its popularity has increased to the point that you can now find final finishes from manufacturers such as PPG and DuPont that are called flat black although to me they seem more in the area of a satin finish. Kind of ironic in my mind. Growing up we used to keep them in primer because we couldn't afford a paint job.

[CarlK60]

Flat black DOES hide rust/dents/etc. I painted my 4 door with some implement enamel, black, and added flattener to it, its pretty flat. I can say that SHINY YELLOW FLAMES bring out the holes in my rust....too bad I couldnta painted the fronts of my fenders black too. This first pic shows the morning I took it to get painted (see all the rust?, and yes it was painted by the end of the weekend...scuff and spray :cheers )

[CarlK60]

See any of it now? Even up close it looks not too shabby, needs to be touched up now, rust starting to show through again.

[CarlK60]

Shoulda been black... :cuss

[Impalaguru]

I think a lot of the hot rod guys that build those primered cars use PPG DP 90, epoxy primer. The DP 90 is black. Its durable and it would give you the sheen that you are probably looking for. A good paint store might be able to sell you a little for a test panel. Its kind of expensive but its good stuff.
Ross

[Rockfish39]

Originally posted by CarlK60
Shoulda been black... :cuss

Carl, dont get all mad at me for saying this. Its your car and you should do with it what you want....

BUT,


Shoulda been >>>>>

1) Stripped to bare metal
2) Rusted out sections cut out of it
3) New 18 guage metal hammer formed to take its place
4) Hammer formed metal MIG or TIG welded into place
5) Welds ground down and Metal Prepped
6) Self etching epoxy primer applied
7) High quality body fillers applied and worked
8) Primer surfacer applied and blocked
9) painted, cleared, buffed and polished

There are only two ways to do body work,

right and wrong.... simply painting something flat black does little

[droptop62]

rockfish,
I don't think Carl is interested in doing a complete restoration on the 60 four door.
Besides, His family owns a body shop so he knows how correct body work is performed.
What was your point again...............
There are many ways of doing things, your way is right to you,
but maybe not others, Flat paint paint has been a part of hot rodding for a long time, YOU just don't seem to "get it"
And I also don't think you understand the roots of hot rodding
if you think every car has to be painted and polished to be accepted.
I don't think anyone was asking how to do correct Body Work.

The flat paint trend is coming back strong with the purist hot rodders, If you don't understand, then you don't understand, that is all there is to it, But do not offer advice on how a car should be done if your not asked, or it's not yours.

[63z11]

"right and wrong.... simply painting something flat black does little"

Did you look at the two photos? Looks pretty kick *** to me for a driver.

[SSpev]

Been there done that. I drive'm hard now:D Love the 60:cheers :cool: Hope it's at KC. It can set next to mine. (looks better than mine)

Looks good in flat paint - swade. How do you get swade?.... NO primer is good for long term protection. It needs sealed. Any color can be used with a flattening agent to get the desired "flatness" I now of people that just use the base coat of base/clear. And Gloss clear will shine over primer. Has a different look. All paints look different.

Anyway I like it. Drive it!

[dq409]

Spiffed that `60 right up !! Looks great and knarly flames to boot !!
I`ll park on the other side of you !!!! :D

[Gus68]

Hey guys!!! CarlK60, Let me just say that your my HERO!!!!! That 60 is just BITCHIN:cool: , That is exactly the look I was thinking. I am thinking of the whole car flat black with either big n little crager ss or crome reverse wheels. I too am just doing my car on the cheap and want to make it a killer driver. I had my 68 Chevelle totally redone the "right way" and dont get me wrong, I love that car to death, BUT before I had it repainted I used to sit on it and lean on it and hang out with it and my freinds. Now Im affraid to let anyone lean on it, I miss that.

[CarlK60]

Rockfish, note in signature.."ratrod/beater" No hard feelings. The purpose of this car was to build a cheap/somewhat reliable/neat beater while I do the Biscayne the good way. Something to drive during the resto. If I hadnt put a motor in etc, I woulda kept robbing parts off of it till it was completely stripped, then crushed it....I saved this one from certain death. TOTAL, I have between $1000-$1500 (probly closer to the smaller figure) in this car. This car would need EVERYTHING replaced to do it right, and isnt worth it, but Ive been enjoying the hell out of it the way it is. Like droptop said, my dad owns a bodyshop, thats where my Biscayne has called home for the past 2 years (and still a long ways to go) Im doing that one right. This car only took 6 months from pasture to road (although I did just do another engine swap, interior fix up and many other things, that Im still doin) Thanks for the compliments guys!!
Id love to have it at KC!! But I have no clue if the date will work out or the funds.... Sure you guys would want to park next to me with that WUSS block under the hood??? ;)
Thats what I love about this car....I can sit on it or whatever I want, and on gravel roads (I live on, and Im sure most you guys' cars never see gravel) if the car is dirty, I just fly. What are the rocks gonna chip? RUST?

CK

[CarlK60]

Anyone else notice the color of the hood on the biscayne looks an aweful lot like color of the 4 door in the before pic? :cheers I couldnt let the parts car have the better hood...

[Rockfish39]

Originally posted by droptop62
But do not offer advice on how a car should be done if your not asked, or it's not yours.

You're right Droptop.....Just got a bit carried away yesterday, I guess... Sorry Carl !
:cheers

[dq409]

Geeeeez,,,, Now I want to find a `60 to do !!!
Stop it,,,darn it !!!! I got to finish the ones I have now !!!

And I know what you mean about shinny paint !!!
Just last night we were at the garage lookin` and talkin` about doing the body and paint,,,
but,,,,,, the way it is now no worries and you get to see how solid a car this is !!!!
If I painted it it the only way it can go is down hill and then people wonder how much bondo it took to get that way !!:D
This is one of the best bodies I`ve seen as far as unrestoried Impala`s go,,,

I think I`ll keep as she is untill after the convention and enjoy all the worry free fun I can have with her !!!

[droptop62]

The Biscayne looks good Carl!
Anxious to see the finished product.
I'm sure you are too!
:cheers

[Fran Preve]

857 had it right, rust primer or black primer because we couldn't afford to have it painted. Besides, primer you could spray yourself and have it turn out no matter HOW putzi you were!.

Enamal primer vs lacquer primer. You could spray enamel paint over lacquer primer but NOT lacquer paint over enamal primer. You could tell the difference, enamal primer was shinier than lacquer primer. It's what we did, rust colored primer, black rims and "baldy" caps with white wall tires. Or I suppose black primer, red rims and baldy's. The good old days!.

You use a black paint with a flattening agent, the more agent the flatter the color. You MUST do this because straight primer won't protect against water, it'll soak right thru, also you'll see streaks after a few washings, especially with lacquer primer. It looked good for a little while then went to pot back then. The good old days!. Oh, and if you go the black paint/flattner route you'll end up with more a semi-gloss, not a true flat, but it will last and you can wash it.

[posi857]

CK - what is the tire/wheel size combo bolted on the 60 in the photo? Thanks.

[threeimpalas]

Originally posted by Fran Preve
You use a black paint with a flattening agent, the more agent the flatter the color. You MUST do this because straight primer won't protect against water, it'll soak right thru, also you'll see streaks after a few washings, especially with lacquer primer.

Not anymore thanks to modern (quality) primer systems! Albeit, they aren't the "el cheapo" way of going about it, and they'll still fade after months of sun exposure.

I had primer on the doors of my late model wagon after I'd shaved the handles for a whole year, w/o any problems. Sat outside everyday and through a whole winter. You could tell it faded, but it didn't streak up after being washed or rained on.

[Fran Preve]

Three: it's been a long time since I painted, maybe that's the way to go then. Could you use this as a base primer as in put it on now to drive around then sand it off (or down) and seal then paint?.

[threeimpalas]

Yes. In fact, when I "ghetto" painted my doors late last summer I just sanded and cleaned the primer that was on them and shot some el cheapo black paint on because we'd grown tired of the half primer look. Hasn't shown any problems so far, despite the poor paint job and mismatched paint systems.

You'd just need to take extra care that it was properly prepped before painting if you're doing a better quality aimed job.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Fran states: "Could you use this as a base primer as in put it on now to drive around then sand it off (or down) and seal then paint?"

I think we started this discussion a bit ago, but never finished it. Wrench was talking about using a primer on his car, and whether that would prevent long term corrosion and provide a moisture barrier.

I used a 2 part primer on my '62SS, over bare metal. My choice was the Dupont DPLF Epoxy Primer mixed about 2:1 with a catalyst (DP401LF). I used PPG products all the way. They aren't cheap, but recommendations from others say protection is strong.
This stuff is supposedly an excellent corrosion resistant primer. We are letting is "harden" about 7 days between coats. No big hurry here. Working on it a bit at a time.

It is my understanding that this PPG product (the epoxy primer) can sit there 'til the cows come home and no moisture will penetrate (assuming proper preparations, following the manufacturer's instructions, etc.).

I am not a paint expert by any means, but I've been studying this for some time, and went this direction, with these products. BowTie Ollie is certainly better versed than I (he moderates the ChevyTalk Forum on Paint and Body Work, and lurks here ocassionally:)).

I was so impressed that after I finish painting this one, I think I might finish stripping the '61 Sport Coupe and bring it to KC for the Convention :)

Best of Luck,
TomK

[Tom Kochtanek]

And I just wanted to ad that I think the "flat black approach" is pretty neat as an short term alternative or just to "freshen up" that four door car you are driving on a budget. Believe me, I know what that is like!

This past summer I acquired a '62 two door sedan that was in primer (looks like spray cans -- no moisture protection here!) and it just looks so cool we were thinking of pop rivetting new metal over the rust spots and painting on little rivets by hand and calling it "The Machine". Inexpensive, but effective. It all depends on the application.

I've got six coats of Clear on top of three coats of Ermine White on top of Lord knows how many coats of primer/buildup on my Corvette, and while it looks great from close up, I still park it sparingly, don't let people stand up against it, and fear for scratches. But it is a "driver"!

Didn't want to do that again :) My '62SS is getting a good sealer (the Epoxy mix mentioned earlier), lots of buildup primer, and a single stage final coat of hardened Ermine White. No clear. Not quite the original acrylic lacquer, but close enough!

Best,
TomK

[CarlK60]

No problem Rockfish.
Droptop, thanks, yeah, Im, uhhh, just a LITTLE anxious!!! :rolleyes: Since that pic was taken the drivers door and fender have been finished.
Fran, I was tempted to paint the rallyes red and ditch the center caps. :D
857, Im assuming yer talkin about the Biscayne? Theyre 17x8s with 255-50-17s. (in that pic the car looks like a monster truck :eek: ) Im including a pic of the 4 door with them but now I have 255-60-17s on rear with the 255-50-17s on front.

[Fran Preve]

I got a set of BALDY caps made to fit rally wheel. Are those 17"s?. I got Torque Thrust D's on my 02 Xtreme, make the car. I'd like to put 17's on my 85 Vette but too many bucks.

[CarlK60]

Fran, yeah those are 17s, If I hadnt found these Torque Thrust IIs cheap (they were new and got them half price w/lugnuts :cheers ) I would have considederd the Ds, it was a toss up which I wanted more. And I forgot to ask this before, what are baldy caps? I dont think Ive heard of them before (probably have seen them though) Any pics? just curious.

CK

[fatride]

CK, that 2 door post 60 will make a tough lookin ride! I think the 2 door post cars make better hot rods than the high falooting hard tops! good job. I was just loking at your 2 door post again and got to thinking, how much weight I could lose by ditching the bumpers? The way your 60 is right now looks tough, Kinda like a gasser no? What would a 60 Impala look like with no bumpers and rolled pans? Rolled pans and nerfs? Hmmmmmm? You have me thinking now. Oh yeh, I love those 17s. I have a picture of a 61 in Chevy Rumble with 16s and 17s, got me thinking.
:D

[CarlK60]

OH NO Fatride, what have I done, I got ya thinkin!! :eek: Thanks, yeah I have really takin a liking to 2 door sedans, I prefer them over hardtops in most cars now. On the 59-60 2 door sedans there is just something about the height and shape of the roof that makes them look mean. I love it! Boy, if you ditch the bumper with all brackets and everything thats attached (just how it is in the pic) that would rid of a LOT of weight. Yeah its got that gasser look, but Im not buildin a drag car here so Im puttin bumpers back on! :) I LOVE gassers, but I couldnt do that to a '60. Not sure how rolled pans would look either, might look better keepin it stock but pullin off the bumper, a little more brick shaped, but would look more nostalgic I think. Cant wait to see it sittin low with some huge meats on those 17's. :cheers

CK