Travis & Floyd Horton 409 engine!!!!

[Phil Reed]

Just got back from spending part of the afternoon at Tony Shaffer's...Day Automotive. He had Travis and Floyd's 409 assembled and on the dyno.......WOW!!!!:D :D :D

Can't say here yet as Travis and Floyd don't get to come up until tomorrow but the results ARE AWESOME!!!!:deal :deal

AND THIS IS A SINGLE HOLLEY CARB ENGINE!!!!!!:D :D

More later!!!!

[Phil Reed]

Here is a view from the driver's side!!!

[Phil Reed]

Here's Tony at the controls.......no steering wheel here........just a GO HANDLE ON THE THROTTLE!!!!!:D :D :D

[SS425HP]

Phil, what are the headers????????? They look good. As a fact, it all looks good.

Fred

[Phil Reed]

Fred:

I think Tony said they are Hookers. But Travis should be on site sometime and he can fill you in. They do look good!!

[SS425HP]

Didn't look like they would loop over the frame from the picture. That was why I was asking. Don't want to cut on a good inner fender. Looked to long and hard to find the right side one. Found it in a salvage yard that was right out of the movie deliverance. Was sure a shakey looking crew running it. Didn't want to turn your back.
The only way I would consider cutting an inner liner, is if I found a good set of through the liner headers. Those I would consider. Had them on my original car. Thought Jardine made them, but when Dean went west in 67 and went to work at Jardines, found out they weren't Jerry's type. So, have no idea who made them.

Fred

[bubbletop61]

Thats a great looking engine guys. Forgive me for showing my ignorance...yup, here comes the stupid question! What are the
parts on top of the valave covers? Breathers of some sort I'd guess but????
Thanks
Gar

[fatride]

Is that a MSD distributor I am looking at?? :eek:

[Travis Horton]

They are breathers on the valve covers. The headers are Hooker's and the car is race only and doesn't have the inner fenders installed. They're in dad's bubble top 409 car. The headers are a pretty decent fit. Tony did a great job cosmetically and I can't wait to see and HEAR it tomorrow! I know he did a great job mechanically even if it only made 300hp! We'll post numbers Thursday: Horsepower, torque, and the number of beers Tony can slam during a dyno pull.

[Travis Horton]

I forgot a few details. It has an MSD distibutor, 830 Holley, Stef's aluminum oil pan, Isky solid flat tappet cam (top secret specs!), 2.25 x 1.72 valves, Tony-modified SINGLE four intake, and 12 to 1 compression. And ARP bolts everywhere.

[bjburnout]

Hey Travis
Nice combination..........is it still 409 cid?
Good size valves, any trouble taking the heads out that far?

A Holley on a reworked intake is the best setup if you relly want to make power. I believe Car Craft tested some intakes last year and a single Holley beat out or matched some tunnel rams.

BJ:cheers

[dougs409]

i was wondrering what is the wire or hose for comeing out of the fuel pump block off plate?

[dq409]

Travis, Great looking engine !!!! I bet the numbers are very impressive !! Can`t wait !!

About the headers,,,,,, does the passenger side loop the frame?
And are they a production header,,,,,,, Thanks,,dq

[WickedWayz]

that wire that coming from the fuel pump plate looks like a ground wire 2 me

[Phil Reed]

See Tony at the controls?????

Wanna closer look????? Betcha' do!!!!!!!

Later..........:D :D :D :D

[dq409]

aaaaaarrrrr rrrrrrhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhh

[CDNpontiac409guy]

nah, Phil... I don't have much interest in that...

Don't you have some pics of NOS weatherstripping or something ?






































COME ON MAN....... YOU'RE KILLING ME :cuss ;)

P L E E E E Z E !!!

[Quickshift409]

Fred I had a set of fender well dump headers on my 63. They were M/T (Mickey Thompson) headers. They had 32in. long pipes in to a 6in. collector. I think they were 1 7/8 dia. tubes. Worked very well, wish I could get a set now.
QS409

[Phil Reed]

Come on Travis...don't keep Aubrey in suspenders any longer!!!!! He is about to hyper-ventilate!!!!!!:deal :deal :deal

DYNO NUMBERS!!!!!!!

[Travis Horton]

The headers are 1 7/8" and the tube goes outside the frame rail. The engine is 482 ci. Does anyone want to know the numbers? No?


















536 hp at 5800 and, get this, 555 lb/ft at 4500! Too bad they don't make a single plane for this sucker! By the way, it is still making 530 hp at 6300. Tony and the boys at Day Automotive did a great job. Maybe next winter we'll try a roller cam and later dual fours. Thanks for the interest, everyone!

[Phil Reed]

Thanks Travis!!!

THAT'S AWESOME FOR A SINGLE 4-BARREL ENGINE!!!!

I know your cam specs are secret but I heard that the lift was about the same height as the Empire State Building!!!!:D :D :D

[CDNpontiac409guy]

oooooooh man.... that's NASTY !!!!!
That LONG stretch of horsepower is going to make for a vicious ride:cheers

Thanks Travis !... I had almost passed out:p

[Tony Shaffer]

Hey Guys,
We're pretty tickled with the engine. The single four intake doesn't run up high as well as the duel four piece. We didn't want to go crazy on port work so the heads and intake have pretty mild work done on them. We were hoping for 550 HP but it didn't quite make it. But it did have a pretty good torque number. It ought to really move the car. Travis and I were talking about maybe trying to fashion some type of good single plane manifold to fit the 09. A little cutting and a little welding, a couple of adapter plates, who knows. He's going to see how she runs in the car this year and maybe next year go for a roller cam and maybe the intake. Travis and his dad Floyd are some great guys. We're all going to have some fun at the 348-409 reunion this year. Can't wait to see all of these cars with the W-series engines in them. It will really be something!
Thanks again Guys!

Tony Shaffer

[jim_ss409]

WOW!!!
Nice going guys. :cheers That's a TON of power and such a wide power band. I can't wait to see that Belair run.

[Mr Goodwrench]

speaking of september is there an official date yet? been waiting to hear so I can get some reservations.

[SS425HP]

Third weekend is what I have down. 15th through the 19th????
Phil???????????

Fred

[Fran Preve]

Now tell us the cubic inches, ' cause 536 @ 5800 out of a 409 just don't compute. Don't matter, it's a bitchin' motor, gonna make a car RUN!. But it's not a 409 cube motor. I got a SS&DI, first one I think, that has a 496 W in a Malibu, sounds like about what this one is.

[SS425HP]

482 CI, Fran. Was in a post above. You must have missed it. I thought Curt Harvey had told me he was getting about 570 from race motors. I know he told me the next 30 HP would cost another 10 Grand. Meant going to Z-11 heads and stuff. Thinking that put him up to 600 HP. Memory can be wrong, though. Still a lot of HP. I saw a graph a few years ago, that you put the weight of the car in, the ET attained, and it would compute HP. Don't remember where this was, now. I do remember that with our old car at 3700 lbs, and an 11.98 ET, it was saying we were up in the 500s on HP. And, it was a .030 over 409. Of course those do leave some room for error!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fred

[fatride]

Fran, you ole fart! Put your glasses on and go back a few posts and you'll see that it's 482 ci.
:stooges

[fatride]

Here ya go Fred. http://hotrodworks.net/hotrodmath/quarter.html Speed at the end of the 1/4 is a better indicator of HP. This is at the rear wheels, add 20% for auto and 10% I think for stick.

[SS425HP]

Ray, everything works except the horse power calc. Keeps telling me to put numbers in. I did. It won't look, I guess! All the other stuff will work. What did I do wrong????????

[fatride]

Don't know Fred, it does the same ting to me? I'll see if I can find another one.

[fatride]

Try this one. http://www.prestage.com/Car+Math/ET+and+Horsepower+Calculators/default.aspx :cheers

[SS425HP]

Ray, really don't like that one!!!!!!!!!!! Shows about 430 HP to do 11.98 at 3750 lbs. Are they talking rear wheel horse power? Sure thought we were doing better than that! Now I feel really BAD.:cry

Fred

[BC409]

hello fellow w-enthusiast. I am wondering if the hi-perf single 4bbl intake that Travis' motor is using can make more power than the dual 4bbl type?It looked like a spacer was used and they said 830cfm holley.although the nostalgia appeal may be less,the ease of tuning on race day would be plus!Has anyone dyno'd such a comparison?I couldnt find anything in my old articles.Sure would like to see a modern aluminum single plane intake for these old girls.

[fatride]

Fred, thats is rear wheel HP, add 18.5% for stick shift. 430 hp. + 18.5% =510 hp. Feel better now??
;)

[SS425HP]

Yeah, I tried about 112 on MPH. Don't really remember the MPH. I do remember the ET, because it was .02 from the national record at the time. WE were on cloud nine. This was either B/FX or B/MP. I think about 2-3 weeks later, someone in a Vette, I think, took the record to 11.60 or something like that. We had no shot at that. We were on the edge of the 409 at the time. There wasn't that much left, and the suspension was working REAL WELL. I mean 6000 and dump the clutch. Was kind of sobering. We ran the 09 a little while longer in 65, then I quit. Dean went on to get a 66 Nova with the small block, and built it with dual 4s, and raced it. This is the car he took to California when he left Ohio. I know Hayden helped him on it, too.
A short story. Hayden told Dean to read the plugs, go through the quarter, and shut the motor off. Well, Dean did just that. WIDE OPEN. Shut her off. 16 valve springs later, it was ready to run again! The idea was to shut the throttle, THEN shut it off. Oh well, sometimes we learn the hard way! NEVER did that again, either one of us!

Fred

[Tony Shaffer]

Hey Guys,
This engine was kind of a mix. It's a mild race engine. It's a good solid affordable single four barrel piece. We've made 700 ponies on 444 inches with 583 heads with duel fours. But that's a bunch of work. You'll see it run at the reunion in my brother Don's Obselete Missile car. I think we can make some more power out of it. Right now the engine is apart at the shop and we are taking a strong look at everything we've done to the engine so far. We're doing some upgrades on the heads and the ring package. We're squeezing this 09 til it squeels! It will be a couple of months before it is finished, but I will keep you all updated on how it is coming. It already has one of the duel four manifolds that we convert to a mini tunnel ram. Looks kind of stock but then you say huuuuuummmmmmm, that looks strange, if you know what I mean. We did find out on the single four barrel piece that the engine isn't as efficient as the two four piece. The brake specific fuel curve was higher on the single four which means that if didn't make as much power with the air and fuel that it was using. Anyway I'll keep you posted. By the way the Bud lights that Travis and Floyd brought were real good. Imported from Pittsburgh Ks. See ya all later.
Tony Shaffer

[SS425HP]

Now that's AWESOME. Good work, Tony.

Fred

[Fran Preve]

Read it three more times, THEN I saw it, absolutely going blind. I knew it was bigger than 409, but 536 @ 5800 from 482 is STILL a great number, especially with that dismal intake. I imagine a good single plane like they make today would seriously increase the HP. How quick?, were doing 11.50's at 118 with a 3400 pund 1984 Monte Carlo, 28" tire, 4.10's, T400. 460 MK IV, VERY mild, dyno'd at a corrected 425 @ 5300 then nosed over, 500 ftpd from 28 to3800. She shifts it at 5600. I'd be surprised if this engine in a 62 b'top couldn't go 11 flat at 125 @3700 lbs. AND SHIFT IT AT 6000!, WOW!. That's what I like, alot down low and a shift point that isn't an engine breaker.


The right angle turns in the stock manifold are killing it, I know many say more, more, more horsepower. I'd rather finesse it enough to get 10.90's, with an engine that will live. Good motor, great job.

[Travis Horton]

The 406 sbc that was in the car ran a best of 10.85 at 124mph. That engine was never on a dyno but a computer dyno predicted 543hp at 6700rpm and 500 lb/ft at 5050rpm. I see 10.70 potential with the wicked torque curve. Provided I can hook it up on the 9x30 slicks! I was very surprised and pleased with the spread between the hp and torque peaks and also 550+ torque. I would like to work with Tony on this combination (single four) to see just how quick we could go before changing to one of his and Donnie's "patented" mini-rams. I'm sure there are a few people not impressed with these numbers but they need to look at the sharp angles everywhere inside the intake and leading into the intake port. Right angles aren't conducive to flow! Glad everyone seems to enjoy this torque pig.
ps Don't send your stuff to Tony. We got dibs!

[fatride]

This whole setup, using W engine components makes me very optimistic that I can squeeze a true 400 hp out of my .030 409 with the 348 heads.
:cheers

[Fran Preve]

536 @ 5800 and NOT impressed?. Not anyone who has BUILT motors!. Especially with that intake!. The carb may be a bit small too. I run a 460 @ about the same RPM with a 750 DP set up by Bill Mitchell. I thought it was "laying down" at about 1000 and called them to ask about a 850. They told me 850 too big and WOULDN'T SELL ME ONE!. Well, they would but didn't recommend it. The had a "conversion" deal where they put my 750 top on an 850 bottom and built it to 870. Didn't do it should have. A GOOD 830 may work, but with a better intake and another 5-600 RPM I'd think about something a little larger.

Considering it's a W, and a stinky intake, and only turning 5800, I'm impressed, but then I've built a few motors in my time. That said.
Stock 2x4 intake, mill out dividers, two 625 Carters sitting on 1/2" WOOD spacers. Remove the chokes and horns. Re-po stock black 62' air cleaner, 1/2 " holes drilled around the perimeter 1/2" apart. Pull the pleating from the element, leave the screen. Dump the VC with those breathers, change to ones without breathers or 2 small 90 degree (less obvious), paint them the correct silvergreen with decals. Make it look as stock as possible. Put the fenderwells back in. Gain a little HP, lose a little torque, look a lot more stock and fool the "unknowing".

Anyway you do it your gonna have fun!.

[MK IISS]

Fran: You don't have to drill holes in the snorkle ring. Just pop the spot welds that hold the ring to the base plate and you have an open element air cleaner. Later you can put it back together if you want to. I've seen a lot of air cleaners at swap meets with holes drilled in them, never understood why unless not all the 2X4 bbl. units are made like my '63.

Richard

[Fran Preve]

Richard: I like your idea much better, if it's spot welded. If it's crimped then my way may work better. Plus with the holes it still looks stock. My object was to get more air in, if not the most, and still LOOK stock. Someone should make the base plate as you describe, but with the larger late carb base opening, and a lid. For some one who wants to put late (READ CHEAP!) 625 Carters on a stock manifold. Those "correct" carbs are getting a bit pricey!.

[62Belair409]

Travis

I guess we did quite well building "Shaffer W-Specials". Hopefully We'll get to meet at the convention, would love to see your ride. GReat numbers and pics.

Dave;)