Heads

[art38]

About finished with the bottom end of my 65' 409 (truck) motor. I have Ross 10.5:1 +.030 pistons, Isky 286 cam, lifters, and planning on using Offy 360 dual quad intake,with two Edelbrock Performer carbs. My question I have heads that were on this block that are casting no. 3788555 and 3815857. Can I have these two heads modified with larger valves to work on this motor?

[art38]

Maybe I should ask what heads would be better to rebuild for my motor?
Art

[62Belair409]

get 690 castings......H.P. is always in the heads !

Dave

[dq409]

"O" Yeh,,,, Just run down to Schucks and get a set of 690`s !!!:D

I think he needs an answer to his question,,,,,
He has these two sets of heads now,,,,,,,dq

[CDNpontiac409guy]

DQ, maybe Dave has a pair for Art for $200 ;) !

Art, I think those heads are about the same in terms of specifications. Best suited to std cubic inch 348. If you can, try to get a set of 333's to modify ( 2.06"/1.73" valves ). They are available and affordable.

[art38]

Thanks Dq and Aubrey that's what I was looking for as a reply. So the 333 I could go to 2.06/.1.72, but not 2.19 right? The 857 is totally different than the 333?
Thanks again for all the help, I'm having a great time build this and learning alot about these motors. Without this website and and the users it would be almost impossible. Thanks,
Art

[art38]

Anyone know the real difference between the 857 heads and the 333 heads? I heard the 333 can be modified to except the 2.19/1.72 valves. So does that mean the 857 could too? I trying to evaluate all my option here.
Thanks everyone,
Art

[SSpev]

I don't have any of those heads, but I can tell yo somethings to look at. Meassure the exhaust port flange. Expect it to be the same as lo po 348. Check the volume of the port ( cc it ) Measuer the throat directly under the valve. Get some one to do the same on 333 heads. If the 333 heads are bigger there better. If I can get my 3 legs to the barn again I should be able to do some lo po heads.

[oldskoolkustoms]

So whats the verdict on the 2.19 valves? And if you run stainless valves should you still run lead additive? Im looking at buiding a set of 333 heads also and have been looking for these answers as well. Thanks :D :bang

[Bungy]

I'm about 99.9% sure the 555 and 857 heads are identical to the 333 heads. I have a set of 791, 333, 817, 690, and 583 heads in the shed. I'll measure the intake and exhaust ports on each this weekend and let you know. Then you can compare them to your 555 & 857 heads. Bungy

[art38]

Thanks Bungy for the help.
I read somewhere that you had to replace the press-in stud with screw-in stud to use roller rocker, but yesterday I was told that is not true you can run roller rocker and poly-locks on press-in studs on 333 heads. Any comment to this?
Art

[Bungy]

Art, you can run roller rockers on any head with pressed-in studs. The problem you'll run into is with high valve spring pressures. The high pressure will pull the pressed in studs out. If you're going to use a hi-po cam with stiff valve springs, then you will want to use srew in rocker studs. The hi-po 409 heads (690&583) had pinned rocker studs to prevent them from being pulled out.

[oil4kids]

Both heads were used on truck motors but the 333 had a small combustion chamber and actually may flow a little better then the 857. However you loose a touch of compression . However the 333 combustion chamber looks like a mini early 396/427 closed chamber head.

[348NUT]

I'll have to take a closer look at these. I have a set of 857s and a set of 333s to compare. Mark is correct the 857s are higher compression. They both have valve rotaters and the 857s have the smallest intake valves of all W heads. I'm assuming the castings are restricted also but maybe could be ported? NUT

[dq409]

Hey Bob,,,, In the info section could you add the info on the heads to include the application, Hp application and valve sizes for us CRS members? It would be a nice addition so we could ref it in the future,,,,,:D ,,,dq

[348NUT]

I'd like to see reference pictures of different head and block features. There's still a lot I don't know!

I did a visual comparison on the heads I have loose and heres the results. First I compared a 333 with a 857. Although the size of the ports at he gasket surfaces are close, when you look inside you can see a BIG difference in porting! Not only are the intakes but also the exhaust valves smaller than anyother W head.
Then I compared a 379 (250hp 348)car head. These castings look identical to the 857 except for valve size! and of course valve rotaters. This made me feel pretty good about the 333s in my car.
But wait there's more. I compared the 333 to a 1147(350hp 348)head and they are almost identical! I never realized the 333s were opened up that well! :eek:
Art, I'd sell that 857 and 555 on EBay and buyu a set of 333s. Put in 2.06/1.72 valves and do a little clean up porting and you'd have a real good set of heads. Hope this helps. I know it helped me. :) NUT

[bobs409]

Always looking to add more! :D

Great idea on the specific applications. I'll get to work on that. There are some there but it needs work! ;) I've been considering re-designing that page so maybe I'll make a fresh start.

I recently aquired 4 of the Alan Colvin books and they list the valve sizes per head in there. I didn't have that info until now. Looks like I found my next project. You shall have it for the next update which is coming soon. :D Thanks for the input DQ. :cheers

Originally posted by dq409
Hey Bob,,,, In the info section could you add the info on the heads to include the application, Hp application and valve sizes for us CRS members? It would be a nice addition so we could ref it in the future,,,,,:D ,,,dq

[threeimpalas]

Originally posted by 348NUT
Although the size of the ports at he gasket surfaces are close, when you look inside you can see a BIG difference in porting!

So are you saying the 857 or 333 has the better porting?

[348NUT]

The 333 has a lot better porting just by looking around the valves and down the runners. I'm no expert on performance heads but common sense was all I needed to see which ones flow better. After this comparison, I'd take a set of 333s over the 379s or the 857s. But like I said I'm no expert and I'm sure many here would agree with me on that part. :p NUT If I'm missing something speak up guys.

[dq409]

Bob, how about sharing what Alan Colvin books you have and what they cover. If I don`t write or save info it`s lost in my cranial cyber space http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/k/yogi.gif:D So a few more reference books would help ,,,Thanks ,,dq

[Bungy]

Nut, You stated that the intake and exhaust valves are smaller then any other w head. Are you saying they are smaller then 1.94 and 1.66? If so, what sizes are they?
On a side note, I did measure all of the heads I have this weekend, but I measured right at the gasket surface and as NUT said there is a change in port size beyond this. I didn't compare my 791 and 333, but the 817 is much larger then the 333.

[348NUT]

Yes they are more like 1.74/ 1.5 I didn't get an exact measurement but they're more like 2 brl small block valves. Before I saw these I thought the smallest were the 1.94/1.6.

[oldskoolkustoms]

awesome, I also really appreciate the info!!! Thanks guys, IF anyone is looking for a set of good 333 heads i know where some are for around 100-150.

[art38]

Everyone,
I've been looking at some 333. I've also been told that 333 can be modified to the 2.19/1.73 valves and you can install the harden seats. So I think that the way I'm going. I have my valves out of my 857 and my 555, I'll measure them tonight. I guess I just measure the diameter, right?

Bob, if you need some pictures of the 857 and 555 heads, I have them and I also have the 65 truck block that I could send picture to you. How about one of those big huge water pumps?

Art38

[bobs409]

Originally posted by dq409
Bob, how about sharing what Alan Colvin books you have and what they cover. If I don`t write or save info it`s lost in my cranial cyber space http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/k/yogi.gif:D So a few more reference books would help ,,,Thanks ,,dq


I recently got a pretty good deal on a set of 4 Alan Colvin books from ebay:

1955-59 Chevrolet by the numbers
1960-64 Chevrolet by the numbers
1965-69 Chevrolet by the numbers
1970-75 Chevrolet by the numbers


I also have the MSA-1 pocket sized books:

1958-70 Impala
1950-75 Chevy cowl tags
1964-72 Chevelle


Others in my collection:

Chevy Super Sports 1961-76 (Terry Boyce)
Chevy 348/409 Musclecar & Hi-po engines (hot rod magazine)
Sixty years of Chevrolet (hardcover) dated 1972
The Chevrolet Story 1911-1961
The Chevrolet Story 1911-1968


I also collect 1958-65 Chevrolet sales ads and road test articles (particularly 348 or 409) I have a treat coming for you guys...I just got a 3 page road test article on the 1958 315 348 and a 5 page road test article on the 1965 340hp 409. All scanned in and ready for the next update!


I think that covers most of it. This doesn't include repair manuals, shop manuals or assembly manuals. :D


Ya know, this could make a good topic, "What's in your library?" ;)

[bobs409]

Originally posted by art38
Bob, if you need some pictures of the 857 and 555 heads, I have them and I also have the 65 truck block that I could send picture to you. How about one of those big huge water pumps?

Art38


Art,

Thank you. I am always happy to have more pics and goodies to add to this site. I'd be greatful for any pics you could send. Anything 1958-65 full size Chevrolet. We've got alot more room on the server and I intend to get our moneys worth! :D lol

send to: bob@348-409.com

[fatride]

The 333 heads smaller combustion chamber unshrouds the valves and with the 2.19/1.72" valves will flow 215 to 225 cfm at .550" lift. The added cfm is due to the unshrouding of the valve not the port difference!
;)

[oil4kids]

You know Vic Edelbrock makes all types of Big Block Chevy heads some with flow around 400cfm- with 2.45/1.92 valves

Lets do a write in campaign to Vic and tell him we want aftermarket 348 409 cast heads which do not empty our bank accounts using some of his big valve designs. Im sure if he asked his employees they would do it in there spare time.



****just an update I called 2 casting companies about repo-ing 409 heads- there response was :

" why? is there any interest in this old truck motor" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[art38]

What have you been smoking?
Art38

[348NUT]

Come on dq wasn't that your smilie I saw a while back representing Mark's apparent departure from reality. :D
That's a good one Mark! :cheers NUT

[art38]

I measured the intake valves at 1.820 and the exhaust at 1.540. These are off my 555 and 857 heads. Pretty small.
Art38

[bobs409]

Guys,

Im just finishing up the new head casting number section as requested by dq (about 8 hours into it!) but I don't seem to have any info on these two truck heads you've been discussing. 3788555 and 3815857

Can anyone tell me what year they were used on, 348 or 409 (or both) and is 1.820 intake and 1.540 exhaust the official numbers or just close to? The 333 heads I have listed at 1.94 and 1.66 Sound correct?

Truck info is tough to come by sometimes...


Thanks,

Bob

[art38]

Bob,
They were on my 65' 409 truck motor, and this motor appears to never have been rebuilt. The valve sizes are 1.82/1.54, at least that what I measured with some digital caliper.
Art38

[Bungy]

Ray, I'm confused (which doesn't take much):confused: Doesn't the 333 head have the largest combustion chamber of any w-head? The others are flat and therefore would have no shrouding once the valve opens at least less then the 333 where the valves are set deeper into the head.

[348NUT]

We're working you like a dog Bob. :D If you need some digital photos for reference I have quite a few that I've collected and more I could take of my stuff. Lots of intake and exhaust manifolds and some heads. I was also thinking we should get some photos of the different notches in the blocks. This question seems to come up a lot. I'd like to see one of those early 348 11 to 1 blocks with no notch. :) NUT

Oh and I got my 857s without an engine so I don't know what they were on? I figured with that valve size they must have been on a 348 truck but maybe they were used on both. Phil seemed to know about these heads so he might have some more info and the factory specs on the valve size? It was said they were used on Fire trucks and New Holand Field cutters. I'll check mine for date codes and the CFD mark.

[fatride]

Bungy, the way I understand it, it's the shape of the recesses around the valves and the combustion chamber itself that directs the intake air into the cylinder and the exhaust gasses out. Back in 58 a guy named Frank McGurk found that grinding the recesses around the valves dropped the airflow and the engine lost HP. Unless you have a flow bench you probably wouldn't belive it. How many guys have messed up a good pair of heads by going in with a die grinder and whacking away only to find out the engine ran worse after the mods! I was surprised also.
:confused:

[bobs409]

I guess you could say dq has "some" pull around here. He's been with us for a very long time! :cheers

How about I mention a few things dq has done...


It was dq that talked me into going pro with this site. (does anyone miss network54?)

It was dq that suggested our current webhost, lunarpages.com. Unfortunatly, I went with another company thinking they had more to offer and I got bit on the a** for my trouble. Stay away from iPowerweb!!! I managed to get a refund and go with lunar and I've been smiling ever since!

dq is and always has been one of our top posters. Very helpful to all. Heck, I think he has more posts than me!!! He always tells it like it is but does it tactfully when needed. Also, he's our "class clown". :D (and he gets top billing for the member that changed his avatar the most times) LOL

dq gave some great advice to me when we did our T-shirts too. Im a guy that didn't know cotton from polyester, heck, I still don't but... that wasn't a problem with his help. He also gave tips on the actual printing so we would get the very best quality. I listened and we all benefited.


That's just a few off the top of my head.... Im glad he's on our team. :cheers


Bob

[Phil Reed]

Bob:

After all those nice things you said about DQ...obviously he means alot to you.......wouldn't it be a shame if you weren't here in September to meet him in person and say Thank You!!!!!

Just a thought.............(don't get mad at me!!! I'm just tryin'!!)

[bobs409]

Originally posted by 348NUT
We're working you like a dog Bob. :D If you need some digital photos for reference I have quite a few that I've collected and more I could take of my stuff. Lots of intake and exhaust manifolds and some heads. I was also thinking we should get some photos of the different notches in the blocks. This question seems to come up a lot. I'd like to see one of those early 348 11 to 1 blocks with no notch. :) NUT


I have been getting alot of time in on the site but I do slow down a bit when the nicer weather comes around. Today we got 5 inches of snow so I got alot done.

Pictures...Send anything you can! LOL Always looking for pics.

Some things that are higher on the list:

348/409 engine parts pics. (heads,intakes,everything!)
Z-11 pics (anything,everything)
Mystery427 pics (anything,everything)
1958-65 wheel covers and hub caps
1958-65 options. (bumper guards,tissue dispensers,8 tracks, etc)
original literature (build sheets, window stickers, etc)
Promotional, prototype and cutaway pics of 1958-65 full size.
Police car, airport limo's, w-powered trucks/equipment of all kinds, odd vehicles (1958-65)
Junk yard car pics. (a future section will be junkyard pics-Chevy's only, preferably 1958-65 full size)


That's just a few. See, I really do need pics!


Thanks,


Bob

[bobs409]

Originally posted by Phil Reed
Bob:

After all those nice things you said about DQ...obviously he means alot to you.......wouldn't it be a shame if you weren't here in September to meet him in person and say Thank You!!!!!

Just a thought.............(don't get mad at me!!! I'm just tryin'!!)


I'd never get mad. :D Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't get talked into it yet! There is alot of time yet. Maybe I should check those Amtrak and airline schedules. :p


Bob :cheers

[Mr Goodwrench]

I agree with bob about DQ but that rolling eyeball he had for his avatar a few weeks ago kinda got me wondering about him :D :D :D :D just kidding

[dq409]

Gezzzzz,,,, I really wove you man !!!!http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/q/bawling.gif

Thanks for all the kind words Bob !!! You better be in KC !!! One way or the other !!! So I can,,,,http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/_950/friendship.gif

It is easy for me to visit here ALOT since I quit working on other peoples homes and now just work here on mine !! And darn,,,,, the computer is always just a few feet away !!! LOL !!!!

It is Bob though that has done all the hard work doing this site and deserves all the credit on making this the BEST DARN CAR SITE on the web !!!!


O,,,, by the way,,,,, just had lunch at the new Hooters !!!!http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/2/salook.gif

[64ss409]

Hey Bob

Sounds like you are getting in the mood for KC. If you are thinking about flying, check airline prices on Expedia.com. I have found cheaper fares there than anywhere else I checked.

Ron