Oil pan

[art38]

Need more help.
Here a picture of me oil pan. Can anyone identify it's capacity? I was told it's a 65'409 pan

[SSpev]

Looks like it. Can't see the front lip to good. Might be a 396.

Want to sell it? ;)

[CDNpontiac409guy]

You bet, Art:cheers ... that's a 65 car pan:deal !
While the 65 car is not as desireable as the 64 and earlier... the oil pan is extremely difficult to locate. Looks like a good one too:cheers
If you trade for a 62-64 car pan, make sure you get a good one:D

[art38]

Anyone know the capacity? Also can I any of the 348/409 dipstick tube and dipsticks? Does anyone have one to sell? Thanks everyone for all the help, I'm still progressing on this project.
Art

[dq409]

Art, Phil should have the right dip stick and tube !!

Phil, You need a basic website with your business and contact info on it !!!,,,,,dq

[Phil Reed]

Thanks DQ....I know...hope to put it together after I get the convention one sorted out!!

Thanks for the plug!!

[bmac]

Art,

I have an older oilpan, I think a 62 or 63 that I plan on using on my 65. If you're interested in a swap I can send pictures next week... I'm on vacation at the moment. It is dented a bit on the bottom side.

Just an aside, I went to the pomona swap meet yesterday!!! man, that is totally amazing! visited ImpalaBobs store this morning in Mesa, AZ.... that was cool too.... 91 degrees beats the typical 50's this time of year in Montana.

bmac

[art38]

bmac,
My son was at Pomona, he and a friend sell new performance car parts. Your right it is pretty big. About my pan, I'm going to see how it fits my 38' coupe.
Art

[Rockfish39]

Originally posted by art38
Anyone know the capacity? Also can I any of the 348/409 dipstick tube and dipsticks? Does anyone have one to sell? Thanks everyone for all the help, I'm still progressing on this project.
Art

Hey Art,
Aubrey is right, thats a '65 "W" pan, no doubt about it...

Capacity = 4.25 US Quarts

Dipstick for it: Phil Reed has them...

The '65 PASS pan is the hardest non Z-11 oil pan to find... You would be better off to sell it and buying a more common 62-64 pan, or even a truck pan that has the baffle in it... OR if you want to be a really nice guy... DO trade BMAC for his.

BMAC >>> A word to the wise... THE pan that your car needs is
a 1965 ONLY unit (IE the one in the photo)... The others wont fit because the deep sump on them is much to long (from front to back) to clear the engine cross-member on the frame. See for yourself, The one in the photo has three steps, the others only have 2. You dont want to be wrestling around with a 600+ lbs engine only to find out the hard way, that it will hit the frame.

[art38]

I think Phil said that this pan was 6 Qt. Is this pan overall deeper than the other pans or is the additional capacity because of the second step in it. I'm planning on using it on 38 coupe so I'm concerned about the ground clearance.
Art

[Rockfish39]

In physical measurement, the deep part of the sump is the same as the earlier pans... The second step is shallower...

capacity = 4.25 USQ

Rock:cool:

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Art... it may be just MY way... but as Rock pointed out, those things are rare. It is doubtful that for your application that the unique design ( 1965 ) would be necessary. IMHO, I would see that someone who really needs it, get's the pan... and you can EASILY use a 409 truck pan... which is MUCH easier to get, and 99% of the time will be in better shape. Not to mention, I think the 61-64 ( and truck ) pans are a more efficient design ( all the oil in the sump is isolated around the pump, and is less prone to "sloshing".

[art38]

I really appreciate all the info, but unless someone has a perfect earlier pan or if someone tells me this pan will not work for whatever reason ( must be good reason) on my 65' 409, why should part with it?
Art

[bmac]

Thanks Rock!

I did now know that I'd have a problem with the pan. Dang!
I guess I'll have to see if I can find one and I suspect it may be tough, thanks for telling me.

If I cannot find one, can I modify one to fit? I'm sure I can but has anyone done it?

Art, if you change your mind, let me know.

bob

[Rockfish39]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=10076&item=2466170012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT

BMAC I was going to bid one this and put it away for safe keeping, but If youre going to bid, then I will abstain so that you will probably get it cheaper... You really need to bid on this as they are REALLY hard to find !!!

Ken Reeves once did me a favor for one of these, now its my turn ....

Rock:cool:

[art38]

I was a little slow in get my reply out ( work is getting in the way). Aubrey your right, I'm not build a original car, but I do need a gooooood pan and I'm still looking for desent heads. This pan is as close to perfect as you will find.
Art

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Art38 said,
"why should I part with it?"

Because you can use the regular pan ( it's just a street rod )... and Bmac needs one.

Pretty good reasons:deal

sounds like a natural deal to me:cheers

[bmac]

Rock,

I added my post and went to ebay and found that pan as well.
I appreciate you telling me about it as well. Yeah, I'll see what goes on it.

Also, if you have some good pics of your engine, would you mind e-mailing them to me at some time? My car has the wrong 283 and I found the 409 to put in and am would like to have some pics of the finished product.

bob

[art38]

Anyone have good earlier car or truck pan. I don't mind parting with it, as long as I have a replacement.

[Rockfish39]

Originally posted by CDNpontiac409guy

sounds like a natural deal to me:cheers

DITTO!

:cheers :cheers :cheers

btw... Bob, Rockfish39@hotmail.com... Email me so I can reply to you directly...

Rock:cool:

[bmac]

Art,

I have a couple pans. When I get home (on vacation now) I can snap some pics and send them to see what you think.
I'll be home Monday.

I'm glad you posted the thread, I would have found out about the pan too late in the build of my engine.

bmac

[art38]

That's fine. If you need more pic of this pan that I have, please let me know. I'm leaving Friday for Cal, going to the Goodguy Show in Bakersfield. I'm still looking for some heads.

[Rockfish39]

Art,
Call Jack at 409 Chevy Performance, he has the heads that you need for a reasonable cost and is out in Willows, CA so shipping costs wont be bad for you...

530-934-4336

Tell him that

Virginia is for Lovers!!!!!!!! (409 Lovers, that is...)

Rock :cool:

[Fran Preve]

How about a VERY near perfect 1965 pan with a small notch in the front, it was supposedly for an engine swap (into a 62-65 Chevy II). No one wanted it because it was a 65 and the notch. I also have a truck motor, NOS, with the pan on it, but it looks like it would be way too long for a passenger car.

[bmac]

Art,

thanks, I'll try and get you some pics when I get home. I appreciate you thinking about it.

Fran,

Thanks, if the pan would work that would be good. I just found out today that the one I have will not work (thanks Rock!) I would be interested in the event the pans I have are not as nice as Art's looking for. By the way, I really enjoy your info on the way things were in the factory.

bmac

[Fran Preve]

BMAC: Thanks for the comment, if it weren't so cold out I'd go out in the garag and sniff around. I've gotta take another look at these pans. I got one really *hitty looking 09 and the same in a 348, both will take a LOT of work to make nice. I was ALMOST temped to go after the one on Ebay today.

[art38]

What is the truck pan like? I don't have a cross member clearance problem on this coupe, so maybe it would work.

[Fran Preve]

Art: I just crawled around the parts in the garage. The 65 pan looks the same as the one pictured in first post, EXCEPT!:
where the first hump is there's a 1" x 1" piece of angle welded in. If you were doing a perfect resoration it wouldn't work, but if it's a driver quality car no one would ever see it unless they crawled underneath.

The one on the truck motor looks like the sump is a little bigger (longer) but someone out there knows what a 409 truck pan looks like and can comment better.

The two ther pans I have are a 409 (I have 409 written on it and believe it came of a 340 hp motor I have (short block only), it's a sand blast and then filler prime and massage to make it PASSABLE. Then there's a 348 also nasty but serviceable if cleaned up.

I have to learn how to post pictures on Ebay soon and can then post some here. A picture is worth a 1000 words!.

I'm stuck right now, I have two good pans, the 65 and the truck. I need one for a 348 looking 409 truck based low po motor IF I keep some parts.

[WickedWayz]

Wow I didnt know the GOODGUYS show is this Friday at Famoso Raceway. I go every year to the show for the last couple of years. What day are u going ART. I know it run from FRI thru SUN. They have a good swap meet there :D. Maybe Ill see you there.

[Mr Goodwrench]

Fran I might be intersted in the truck pan if the other guy dont take it. send me a private message. thanks

[art38]

Fran,
I interested in the truck pan. Send me an e-mail of pictures if you can. abklein@earthlink.net

WickedWays,
I'm leaving Denver Friday afternoon, staying in Thousnd Oaks Friday night (in-laws) and the Saturday morning my son and I will drive to Bakersfield for two days. If you want to meet up, let me know.
Art

[bmac]

Fran,

I have a 348 pan, I think from a 59 engine. I have not cleaned it up yet but sure could.

This is kinda cool, could turn into a 3 way round robin pan swap if I'm really lucky!!!!

bmac

[kbc409nova]

Fran
I am interested in the 65 pan with the notch in it. I have a quite nice 348 pan
that needs the baffle welded back in.
kbc409@ frontiernet.net
Kevin

[Fran Preve]

Good grief, what have I started. Ok, first I haven't learned how to Email a picture, and I MUST learn and soon.

Problems:
1) 65 pan, it's loose, one step below one pictured (if paint removed and the notch), what's it worth?. I don't want to rip anyone on this site, but not give it away either. Either I sell it for a FAIR price, but not the most I could get, or swap for parts I (may need). I like the swap better because you may have what I may need and we BOTH can make out.
2) Truck pan, it's on a NOS 409 truck motor now, and it's about as nice as you can find (no rust, flaking paint). But it's on a motor now and unless I got a MINT passenger car 409 pan I can't sell it. I say that only because it may have a LITTLE larger capacity for someone who races, but I don't know. Not interested in a 348 pan. This engine may be one I keep after I sell the rest of my stuff to screw around with, maybe build into a pure street motor.Bottom line here is it's on a motor.
3) Bad 409 pan. I say that only because it needs a THOROUGH cleaning, it's from a 340hp shortblock that's DISGUSTING but not head bank cracks and can be rebuilt. Basically it's a "core", and in my opinion passenger blocks are much more valuable than people think. Heads?, dime a dozen. Cranks & rods?, dime a dozen. Blocks?, every engine that's built uses one up and they didn't make that many to begin with, besides which they havae a habit of cracking just below the head bank (my NOS truck motor is cracked, half the number of blocks I've seen were cracked). Anyway, it goes with the motor and I'd look for a NICE one to sell with the motor so it's a moot point.
4) 348 pan, loose, and DISGUSTING looking, dented bottom, but with some effort (a LOT!) it could be made decent. I think I paid 10 or 20 bucks for it. It's in with the bunch of parts I'm selling. I don't think it's worth much.

bmac: If the truck pan works in a passenger car and I can use it MAYBE we can work something out that's fair for both of us. YOU need it so would get first crack (how soon do you need it?).

everyone else: If the truck pan works for me in a passenger car I have to keep it. If it has more capacity and someone else can use it I'll SWAP it for a similar condition passenger car 409 pan (no 348's). I'm thinking arts38.

Frankly I'm sorry I posted what I did, I should have maybe shut up, maybe some LEARNED about 409 oil pans from all this, I know I did.

[Mr Goodwrench]

wonder what happened to all the oil pans???? seems like there is a real shortage of them, surly they didnt build the engine without a pan did they :D or did a bunch of them end up in the junkyard with the rods hanging out them? friend of mine used to say rev it up ...blow it up... scoop it up 409 409 :D

[art38]

Fran,
I think bmac needs my 65 pan for his 65 car. I honestly don't care as long as it's a equally or better pan. Please nobody should take what I'm about to say wrong, I need parts to complete my motor as well as alot of others do. Why should I GIVE a high thought after pan away for some pan that not as good and get nothing more. Ok, I got a new idea, I have two heads, one is casting 555 and the other is 857, who wants to trade me for some good 817's. Remember heads are dime a dozen. Anyone like my new idea? bmac this was not aimed at you or anyone else, I just thought it was funny how everyone was making so many assumptions.
:D

[Fran Preve]

Art, let's calm down, I only suggested that if we can help one another let's do that. bmac needs a 65 pan, I don't know if he has extra parts to swap, if he does maybe that's the way to go.

As far as the heads are concerned, I don't know what -555's are from or -857's, but -817's are 340hp/409's and the next best after 690/583 hi pos (they have 2.07 intakes). Lord knows (and you guys) that I'm not the most knowledgable guy here on what's best, but I think the BEST head is the 583 (stronger valve spring area's, followed by 690's, both because of the 2.19 valves/ports, followed by 817's with 2.07 intakes, followed by ???. I'm reading here there are others that can be putzed with to make a decent head but haven't a clue which is best or better.

Where are the oil pans?. My guess is a lot are rusted and/or dented. There's one on Ebay today at $42.50 that looks clean if not dented, what you guys would sell one for is anyone's guess. And no one has answered my question about the difference between a 409 truck pan and passenger car one. I should know but haven't got the urge to go out in the cold garage and unwrap the 409 truck to see. What are they worth?. the one pictured here seems to be as good as you'll EVER find for a 1965 pan, they made 2243 400hp ENGINES in 1965 and 719 340hp ENGINES. How many pans are still out there?.

Anyway, I hope Goodwrench was only KIDDING!.

[348NUT]

Isn't this fun? :D I just read through all your posts and and can see all your points. Art you started this. The way I see it, in a perfect world you would find a perfect truck or earlier car pan to replace the 65 pan. You'd get some extra money in the deal and a little more oil capacity. I don't think there is any dimentional differance between truck pans and the older car pans. The truck has the drain plug facing down and some have baffles some don't. I don't think it is your duty to search out this perfect swap unless you have the time. Obviously you could sell that 65 pan on Ebay and replace it with a less expensive truck pan. That wouldn't help bmac though. On to bmac, it isn't that hard to modify these pans and to make an older version look like that 65 would be fairly easy with a hack saw and a wire feed welder. I've done two 348 pans now, one just shortened the sump The other I shortened and deepend the sump for a stroker. You can make them look factory to if you take your time. See my photos in the members gallery. I hope this works out for everyone. :)
Oh and I have a perfect truck pan with no baffle that I'm saving because my 61 409s pan is mutilated. Anyone wanna trade a nice older car pan for my truck pan? Didn't think so. :p NUT

[art38]

Fran,
I really was not getting excited. I thought it would be fun to turn this situation around to benefit me for once as a joke. Peace. Your right there may be a pan on e-bay for $42, last week a 409 pan went for over $500. Again I know I do not need this pan for my rod.

[Fran Preve]

OUCH!, what pan is worth $500?. And I thought $152.50 for a rebuilt off brand distributor was high!.

[art38]

Nuts,
I thought it was:D still waiting for someone to reply to my head offer.:D I really hope I don't p..s anyone off. I think this is a great site.
Art38

[348NUT]

If you find someone let me know as I have a set of 857s I'd let go at a price. ;) I hear farm empliment restorers like Phast Fill are scooping these babies up so better act fast! :p NUT

[WickedWayz]

Wow Art U coming all the way from Denver 2 California. It a Nice little drive. Hopefully by 2night ill let u know bout meeting up at Famoso. But mostly likey ill go if things stay the way they are.

[art38]

Nuts,
I believe those 857's can be redone with at least 2.06/1.72 and maybe 2.19/1.72 valves.
Art38

[bobs409]

On '65's im not 100% sure but I do recall a discussion or two here that mentioned 64-older truck pans being the exact same thing as cars only with the drain plug in a different location. (on the bottom I think)

I don't think the capacity is different between the two. All of the pans should hold 5 quarts and 1 in the filter. The oil filters were bigger on the trucks and that's where they might have larger oil capacity's. Those would hold more.

Of course, im no truck expert, im only going by what I've heard from our friends here. If im wrong, blame everyone else here for steering me wrong! :D


Bob

[art38]

WickedWays,
I'm flying there. Rod is not ready yet and my 67 Firebird I wouldn't think of driving it this time of year over the Rocky. Let me know.
Art38

[Fran Preve]

Bob: your right about the larger oil filter (canister). I remember a buddy using one on a Chevelle he had, held about a 1/2 quart more (hung down about that much too). If you've got the ground clearance this is the way to go. I haven't checked yet on the part number for a screw on filter but I know they make them, again, IF you have the ground clearance it's the way to go, larger filter, more oil, can't lose.

[bmac]

Hmm,

I wrote a bunch and posted and it got eaten... strange.

Nut,

I did post a few back about modifying the one I have. May end up doing that. However, if Art/Fran and I can make a deal that gets me the right one, that would be great. Since they both have the rare one, I'd expect to part with some cash as well. Hopefully it will work out. I do have 2 409 pans(I think) and one 348 pan maybe one of them will work for Art but I would want him to have a good one for his build as well.

As for my build: When I get back from vacation next week hopefully my block and lower end will be done and hopefully the heads soon after. I'm hoping to have it in by May however Rock told me I may have some other issues since my car is not an original 409 so I'm a bit nervous on that. I'm a hobbiest with my car and have only heard one 409 and that's Aubreys mpg file on his site. Only seen one for that matter as well.

This group is great, I find out about 24 hours ago I need a unique pan and within 6 hours have the possiblity of two members willing to swap! Pretty awesome.:cheers

bmac

[dq409]

Originally posted by bmac
I'm a hobbiest with my car and have only heard one 409 and that's Aubreys mpg file on his site. Only seen one for that matter as well.
bmac

OWHHHH,,,,!!!! Are you going to SMILE !!!!When she lights,,,,,,MAN O MAN !!!!! Make sure the exhaust IS NOT hooked up !!!

There are a few members in the Great Falls area,,,,,,
You might hook up with them and have some fun !!!! Some times it helps to see another car for reference,,,,

AND ,,,,,,Aubrey (Oz) is not that far from you either,,,,,
Take to Dinosaur Territory and see some GOOD action !!
Shoot,,, might as well make it on the weekend he will be racing !!!! Pick me up at the airport !!!,,,dq

[SSpev]

Hey I was the first person to reply to art38. I asked if he would sell it. :deal Then every one jumped in wanting to trade:confused: Hey I have 4 348 pans 1 409 truck and a 348 truck (just like the 09) What you want??? I'll even make you a pan;) I got 2 rusted up 348 pans. Well one of them I plan to turn into a 65 pan with a 396 doner:cool: ..... I don't really need one right now. Price of the leg:cuss Anyway just had to post something:p ;) Just having fun:cheers :cheers :cheers

[art38]

We can all work this out next week. I'm leaving for Cal (Goodguy Show) tomorrow afternoon, so nothing can be done till next week sometime.
Art38

[WickedWayz]

As it looks now Ill be going SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY. I wanted to go Saturday but my father isnt going tell sunday,so SUNDAY it is :) .

[Mr Goodwrench]

sorry ss didnt mean to butt in, wanna trade a mallory duel point dist for one of those truck pans?

[Fran Preve]

Not me, got one too.

[SSpev]

I got one with the bottem rusted off. Would that be the one you need? ;) :rolleyes: :D

[bobs409]

Nothing wrong with that Tom. Just find one with the top half rusted off and weld the two together! :D :p

Seriously, you could fab a new bottom and use it on a custom application. Even make a deep sump out of it. (or sell it on ebay, just say "409" a few times in the ad) :D

[Mr Goodwrench]

No thanks ss got one of those myself :cuss like I said before seems to be a serious shorage of oil pans :evil wonder how close a big block pan comes to fitting? prob miles off I would guess.

[bubbletop61]

I have a good 348 pan, but I am thinking of building a stroker using a stock 409 crank. This is probably a pretty simple question among this crowd...Do I need to get a 409 pan, or will the 409 crank spin in the 348 pan? Pros,Cons???? Is there an oil capacity difference? Are there many differences or variations among 348 pans from year to year or truck to car?
Thanks
Gar

[SSpev]

Bob, Mr Goodwrench, I actually have 2 messed up pans. One rusted (should see the engine:eek: ) one hit with a fork truck:cuss . I plan to make a 65 409 pan with one by mating a 65 - 70 fullsize 396 pan to the bottem. I check some time back and I don't recall a fit problem. I'll cut the rail off the rusty 348 pan and weld the bottem of the 396 pan on. The dipstick will even end up in the right place. Goodwrench, if you want to get ride of that rusted up junk pan:p :rolleyes: , you can send it to me. I might even trade some pitted and melted pistons ;) . Did I say trade????:D :cheers

[SSpev]

Hey Goodwrench, just had an idea. I could just drive over and pick up that pan...and anything else you want to unload. ;) Where you at exactly?:confused: :D

[bjburnout]

Hey Bubbletop
The 409 crank, especially a stroker will hit the 348 pan, besides the dip stick is on the wrong side for a 409.
That 348 pan may be worth something to someone doing a 348, hold on to it.
If you are building a stroker you want some extra capacity in that pan for more oil.....a stocker ain't gonna work.

BJ.

[Mr Goodwrench]

hey ss I'm in central ILL carlinville to be exact dont realy have anything I want to part with exept some 58 348 stuff (block crank and the like)

[dq409]

GEZZZZZZ,,,,,62 post about oil pans,,,!!!???? Whats the world coming to ?????? LOL !!!

[art38]

GEZZZZZZ,,,,,62 post about oil pans,,,!!!???? Whats the world coming to ?????? LOL !!!

I saw other threads were catching up in number of post so thought I would continue this thread. :D
Not really. I received bmac pan today and was going to ship him my 65' pan, but got to looking at his and it deeper by a little more then inch. Is this is a truck pan? The problem is I don't think I have room for that inch under my rod. Right now with the 350 the pan sometime would rub on speed bumps or something.
Art38

[bmac]

Here's a picture of the pan I sent to Art.

[Phil Reed]

That is a 409 truck oil pan. The drain plug is on the bottom of the sump.

[bobs409]

BMAC, I hope you don't mind, I snagged a copy of that pan for the ref pic page.

I won't use if you don't want me to. :bow :D

[bobs409]

My drain plug is on the bottom too but only because I had it moved there when I had the pan modified for my Chevelle. Figured it would drain better. :D

That is a 409 truck oil pan. The drain plug is on the bottom of the sump.

[art38]

Yes, this pan is also deper by 1 inch, does that mean that it's capacity is larger?
Art38

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Hey Bmac,
That pan is EXCELLENT !!!!
WELL WORTH a 65 pan... maybe and some.

Something needs to be cleared up here...

A 1961-64 passenger car pan, and 1962-65 truck pan...
have EXACTLY THE SAME CAPACITY, SUMP, CONFIGURATION, DEPTH... yadyadayada...
The difference, and ONLY difference is drain plug location ( and the fact that 99% of the time, the truck pan will be free of any dents and scrapes ).

I have 3 truck pans and 3 car pans hanging on the wall beside eachother.

Sure wish I could find a 65 pan for bmac :cuss ... I'd cover the shipping :deal

Sorry for the hassle you're going through, bmac...
you can lead a horse to water, but ect ect..

[Rockfish39]

Sorry this is turning out to be such a problem....

We'll find you another OE one somewhere...

If all else fails, STEF's
732-367-8700 makes a really nice one that fits the '65 cars so, not to worry...

one way or another your '09 is covered!!! hey, that rhymes.....

Rock :cool:

[348NUT]

The pan I took out of a truck was perfect too. Aubrey, It was on a 348 in a 1960 C70 truck It is identical to the one pictured and has no baffle inside. Is mine a 62 or newer pan? Another question: Did the high perf car engines that had the splash shield fastened to the main bearing caps also have the baffle in the pan? NUT

[bmac]

Rock,

Cracked me up on the bobby mac header.... have not heard that in years although that's what it was..... funny!

Nut,
The pan I sent to Art had the baffle in the pan. I don't know the year of the pan as I got it all in parts.


Bob,

Feel free to use any pic I post here. You are much more that welcome, and happy anniversary!

bmac

[art38]

Aubrey,
I don't know what you mean yadyadayada. It's over 1 inch deeper. Yopu guys have ground clearance, I don't have that addition inch.

Bmac, I had planned and I'm still planning on this trade. What I'm doing is trying to find another pan. I think I indicated that in my e-mail earlier today, we should be able to work this off this site.
Art38

[jim_ss409]

I've got a truck pan in my 62 and it does hang down just a little below the crossmember so mayby they are an inch or so deeper. I moved the plug to the car position because the truck style plug hung down where it looked like it could get hit. One other thing that I ran into was that the stroker crank touched the pan at the front. It just barely touched but I had to pull it back off and hit it with a rubber hammer. There is enough clearence between the pan and the crossmember to lower it by 1/2" or so. If my pan wasn't already painted I would have tryed to hit it down a bit further yet so that the crank would have extra clearance. As it is right now it's probably spinning through a bit of oil.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

I hope this works...

All this talk on oil pans. I had been meaning to take these pictures a while ago. I finally got to it tonight !

From left to right:
409 truck
409 car ( as you can see, the sumps are ABSOLUTELY identical... holds 5.2+ U.S. qts / 5 litres )
348 truck... YOU BET, guys !... sump is VERY NEAR the same as 409 car. Slightly more rounded at the front. And as the 409 pans, the dipstick is on the right side.
348 car ( 4 U.S. qts / 4 litres )

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Just another picture for clarity :deal

[CDNpontiac409guy]

A 409 tuck pan and 409 car pan:

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Last one !
On the left... 348 truck pan.
On the right... 409 car pan.

[jim_ss409]

Great info! :deal Thanks for posting those pictures.

[Rockfish39]

In physical measurement, the deep part of the sump is the same as the earlier pans... The second step is shallower...

Rock:cool:

Thanks for the photos Aubrey !!!! Ive been saying this all along....

No Deeper....


:D :D :D

[art38]

Great picture Aubrey.
That's fine guys, good info, but the 65 pan is definitly more that one inch shorter in depth.
Art38

[bobs409]

This may or may not mean anything but one of my books mentions that a 409 car pan was used on some trucks.

That's it, that's all I have to offer. :p :D

Im Bob and I approve this message! :D


Bob

[348NUT]

Just couldn't leave this oil pan thing alone could ya Aubrey? ;) Well here's some questions. The three 348 car pans I've seen don't have those dimples in the front of the sump like yours. (I'm glad cause those would make modifying harder). My 348 truck pan looks just like yours without the dimples and my later 409 truck pan does have the dimples like yours. But which factory pans had baffles in them? So far the only one I've seen without it is the 348 truck pan. Did the high perf engines with the shield on the main caps have the baffle in the pan as well? Just wondering. :) NUT

[CDNpontiac409guy]

The three 348 car pans I've seen don't have those dimples in the front of the sump like yours. (I'm glad cause those would make modifying harder). My 348 truck pan looks just like yours without the dimples and my later 409 truck pan does have the dimples like yours. Did the high perf engines with the shield on the main caps have the baffle in the pan as well?


HHMM... :confused:
The dimples ?
Could it be a Canadian thing ?
To my knowledge, ALL 348/409 engines were built in the States. We DID stamp our own valve covers and made distributors and fasteners ( Canadian oil pan, timing cover, and head bolts will have an "S" or "E" on them ).
It IS possible that more sheet metal was done here.

On the baffle. I have one original 340HP 409 pan. It has the full plate/baffle.
The car pan in the picture is a 1963 425HP version ( engine has windage tray ). This pan has just a short baffle to stop the oil from sloshing to th front under hard braking.

Glad these photos helped, guys :cheers

BTW... I would suspect that the references to old truck 348's having 409 car pans would be due to the fact that they look almost identical... except for the shallower "belly" just behind the balancer.

[348NUT]

HHMM... :confused:
The dimples ?
Could it be a Canadian thing ?

BTW... I would suspect that the references to old truck 348's having 409 car pans would be due to the fact that they look almost identical... except for the shallower "belly" just behind the balancer.

Oops I was wrong. My 348 truck pan has the drain plug in the bottom and has the 409 type bulge at the front. It could be a 409 pan but it doesn't have the dimples or a baffle. Do all the 348 car pans up there have dimples? :D The Alaskan pan I modified didn't so it's not a global position thing. :p The pan that was on my 61 409 had the full baffle in the pan and the windage tray on the main caps. An extra sump was added to the front but I can see it didn't have a bottom drain plug so I'm sure it is a car pan but not sure it is original? The baffle also has a different embossed pattern than the later truck 09 pan. Are you keeping up with me on this Mr. Bruneau? ;) Are you sorry you brought this up again yet? :D NUT

[Fran Preve]

Two more cents:
Different fasteners, I don't think so, canadians may have changed valve covers (because they were put in Pontiacs) but not fasteners.

348 oil pans - date the oil pan - Tonawanda built 348's AFTER they stopped putting them in passenger cars, but for truck applications. I suspect that they probably used a common oil pan on ALL W block truck motors built after 1961, as in 409 trucks and 348 trucks used the same pan. Don't ask me when they stopped making 348 truck motors, I'm lazy, but I will say 1965. 409's were built at least until 1971 when I was hired because I distinctly remember seeing a small hand assembly line in September 1971. This was probably about the end.

1965 pans - if I had the talent I could have done this, I have 3 pans lined up as I keystroke, a 1965, 348 from ?, and a 1963 340hp. I can see where the 409 pan won't work in a 1965 but the 348 pan LOOKS like it's VERY close. I THINK you can dimple a 348 pan and it will fit in a 1965. If I had a 1965 and needed a pan and could come up with a 348 pan I would bang it to fit, you couldn't do this with a 409 (or truck) pan. On a street driven car the 4 qt vs 5 qt isn't enough to lose sleep over.

Aubry: People like you make this site exceptional, and postings like this explain better than words what the differences between parts are. Thanks from all of us.

Bob: I need your mailing address, email me at home.

[art38]

Bob,
Thought you might want some pictures of a 65 pan to go with Aubrey pictures.
Art38

[art38]

Here's the inside

[art38]

Here's one more

[Fran Preve]

So THAT'S what a perfect oil pan looks like!.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

[QUOTE=Fran Preve]Different fasteners, I don't think so, canadians may have changed valve covers (because they were put in Pontiacs) but not fasteners.

ABSOLUTELY, Fran !
There's no such thing as fastener with an "M" or "L" marking on a Canadian built car. The chassis will have an "S" or "C" ( C is generally 62 and older ). Engines are the same situation with "S" or "E" used. The 5/16" oil pan bolts that are peculiar to 348/409 ( small block is 1/4" ) and I usually see an "L" on the U.S. ones.
I have a set of brand new in the box 409 head bolts. All have the "S"... Box says "Made in Canada". I have never seen an original 409 with this marking, but most of the 348's that I have DO have it. :deal

Geez.... I thought those pictures would HELP this discussion :eek: ;)

Thanks Fran... It goes both ways. There's been a few times that I've been stumped by something, posted my question here, and..... WHOA !!!!!
Did these guys come out to help me :bow :cheers

[Fran Preve]

Aubrey: I'd like to discuss the "markings" more. Where are the markings?, on the bolt head?. I'm confused a little. And we used bolts and other parts "Made in Canada" regularly, I don't know when this started. We had a few different
sources for bolts, and generally there was a marking (not necessarily a letter) on the head to tell one source from the other. These markings caused quite a bit of confusion amongst the Corvette people, they all HAD to be the same!. No they didn't. The bolts came in boxes and there may have been bolts from more than one source at the line at the same time. There were "troughs" that the bolts were dumped into, there may be all one source on one side, all the other on the other. Or both sources dumped in the same trough (I know I'm spelling that wrong). Anyway, we didn't give a *hit, they were all the same to us. And if someone restoring a car 20-25 years later had a problem with this?. Well we just laughed and said "boy someone some day is REALLY gonna get PO'ed huh". I mean, really who was to know?.

Where fasteners were concerned GM wouldn't have a sole source, if that source had a problem what would they do, shut down the line?. Each source had it's own ID, simply because if there was a problem they could trace it down. Canada wqas a country we sourced from going back to who knows when. I'd have to see a "canadian" valve cover to see what the difference was, YOU would know that better than I. Valve covers could be changed easily, timing covers (for example) wouldn't have been changed just for Canadian use, nor oil pans. If I had a complete ORIGINAL unrestored 348/409 engine to look at I may be able to explain the why's much better. They only built them one place, Tonawanda. And I have no records ANYWHERE that should an "export" engine or an "export" suffix code. This leads me to believe there were NO differences except for a simple part like a valve cover. Over to you, help me help us.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

HAH !
Fran...
Now you're REALLY going to test my photographic skills :p ...

I'll see if I can take a "group shot" tomorrow.


BTW... You should see te one 348 valve cover I just found... that ALMOST has the bowtie stamped in. So faint, I don't think I could capture it in a photo :confused:

[CDNpontiac409guy]

OK... this is it.... this is as boring as this topic can get... and I'M posting the picture :eek: :rolleyes:

Engine fasteners:
timing cover, oil pan ( the one with the "L" is U.S. only ), and cylinder head.

After this... I think we've ALL had enough of THIS subject ;)

[Fran Preve]

Each of those show what I was saying, the heads have an identifying mark, this shows the manufacturer. I'd like a better explanation of "only US", I don't understand this. And you never did say what the difference was in Canadian valve covers. Gotta go, sorting thru Auto Traders, looking at a Canadian national old cars now, some in french, from 1987. What was the exchange rate in 87?.

[bobs409]

You snap some nice pics Aubrey! ;) I'll help you with one of the questions:

Fran: Canadian valve covers don't have the bowtie stamped into them. (this I learned from Aubrey)


Bob

[Fran Preve]

Here's something interesting. I've been going thru my old Auto Traders and came across a couple from Canada. In one was a picture of a 1961 PONTIAC with a 409!. Was it original?. I don't think so, but I DO know they put Chevy engines in Pontiacs in Canada at least thru the mid 60's, including 348's and 409's. This might explain the non-bowtie valve covers. This also explains a part of my car count vs engines built discrepency which USUALLY runs 93-97% engines vs cars (fewer cars than engines).

Also, when Pontiac went to their "wide track" in 1959 GM of Canada still put Pontiac bodys on Chevy chassis, talk about a WIERD looking car!.

Aubrey can talk more about this, but I know for a fact that 409's went into Pontiacs in Canada. I live on the border (Grand Island is an island in the middle of the Niagara River between Canada and the US).

[biscaynewagon]

Also, when Pontiac went to their "wide track" in 1959 GM of Canada still put Pontiac bodys on Chevy chassis, talk about a WIERD looking car!

Nooo Fran ! That was the best thing of GM Canada ever did :deal
I am sorry I have to disagree with you on this one :p

[CDNpontiac409guy]

[QUOTE=Fran Preve]
Also, when Pontiac went to their "wide track" in 1959 GM of Canada still put Pontiac bodys on Chevy chassis, talk about a WIERD looking car!.

HEEE HAA HEEEE !!!

Here ya' go, Fran :deal

Eat you heart out :p

62 Parisienne. 434" ( +.125" bore ) 409, modified truck heads, Offy 2X4, 1 7/8" Belanger headers... 2.64 1st gear Super T10, 4.56's / spool.

ABSOLUTELY BEAT UP on a "cloned" 63 Catalina Super Duty :beerbang

You want to talk about weird looking Pontiac ?
How 'bout one MORE Oldsmo-Pontiac with the "Pontiac" cast iron connecting rods splattered all over the pavement because there's no oiling system ? :p :scratch

[Fran Preve]

I'm curious, why?. Narrow track chassis, wide track body, goofy looking.

[Fran Preve]

CDN: WOW!, what a SWEET looking Poncho, I LIKE IT!. And your running MY rims, I have a "thing" for those of 5 spoke aluminums (and a collection of them). Nice car, sits right, looks right.

PS: But it doesn't look like a Pontiac body on a Chevy chassis.

[SSpev]

Just thought I'd post some detail pics 409 truck vs 348 pan. ;)