COOLANT and Corrosion

[Rockfish39]

Found a great solution to the age old problem of water eating iron from the inside out...

Evans NPG+ >>> www.evanscooling.com

Read all about it at their website. Its WATERLESS and last for about 10 years. Granted it is more than twice the expense of Prestone, but darn well worth the investment to protect that "W" motor...

Not only that, read the specifications on this stuff... Low Pressure and carries away more than twice the heat from hot areas in the engine than regular coolant does...

I just made the conversion on mine...GREAT STUFF!!!!

Rock:cool:

[dq409]

Rock,,,,, Very interesting stuff !! At $25 a gal I would be interested in hearing more about how it is working for you after you have used it for a while.

What did you have to do to switch over? Did you have to do some kind of major flush to your system?

I will be installing a fresh engine in a few weeks and that would seem to be the best time to add this,,,,,,
I have used several of the water wetter products that are also expensive and have had mixed results. One problem I had with the wetter stuff and no anti-freeze is a rust problem in the coolant system.
It was a job to get the system flushed and clean.

This product looks like the better way to go,,,dq

[Rockfish39]

Jim,
NPG+ is definately the way you want to go... This coolant is waterless, which means no more rust problems...In fact the kit comes with test strips to tell you how much water you have in your system (by % volume). Water is considered a contaminant to this formula. Oddly, straight ethelene gycol isnt...

Since you are installing a freshly rebuilt engine, just make sure the heater core and radiator are empty and fill the entire system with NPG + BANG, youre done

On an existing system, pull the block plugs that are directly above the oil pan rails on both sides of you block. That will drain out everything from intake, heads and block and heater core. Of course you still have to drain the remainder of the radiator too.

Flush out all the crud, let drain again, fill with NPG+ and youre done...

NPG+ has a very oily feel to it, similar in color and texture to what you get after cooking up a batch of bacon, but thats OK... Thats what it is supposed to feel like. My guess is that additional viscosity will only help matters and not hurt anything.

Rock :cool:

[JimKwiatkowski]

Rock,how about engine temps my knuckles start to turn white when I see temp gage hit 200 and above on a hot day city driving?

[Rockfish39]

Jimi Kwi!!!
Long time no talk....

Go to the website, get thier phone number and give 'em a call...
I found them to be both knowledgable and friendly !!!

Rock :cool:

[dq409]

Rock,,, Not a problem !! No heater core and the radiator is flushed and drained. How many gallons did it take to fill ?

Lots of information on their website !! Very well done and informative,,,,,,I`ll give it a try! Thanks,,,,dq

[Rockfish39]

Hey Jim,
Mine took, gulp, 6 gallons, but them Im using a 4-row radiator too....

Rock:cool:

[JimKwiatkowski]

Rock,called the tech line and they sure are frindly and knowledgable.Thats the first time I talked to someone on a tech line that sounds like they care about your problem.I talked to them for about 15 min about my 409 and my drag car the 09 is all set to fire up so I'll do my conversion next winter it will be easier to do with the headers off.I'm going to do the Camaro befour drag racing starts in about mounth.The Camaro would be about 220 to 230 deg after a run and get back to your pit spot.I like the idea of 0 to low pressure in the cooling system no more boilovers.We have 2 dealers in Mich and I lucked out one of them is 10 miles from work.Rock great thread you solved my temp concerns with my Camaro and alot of headscraching and swearing by me.THANKS ALOT

[Rockfish39]

Jimi Kwi,
Im glad that I was able to help you!!!
Now, if I can only solve the problem of why my hot tub is leaking... :scratch

[JimKwiatkowski]

Rock,well I spent some money today I bought 6 gal of NGP+for the 09 and 6 gal of NPG for the drag car.Did you install a expansion tank in your system and if so what did you use?I was looking in the Jeg's catalog and they have one expansion listed for $100.

[29Coupe348]

what were your temps before and after?

[JimKwiatkowski]

29coupe,this will be the first year I'll be trying the evans product and I think this is Rocks first year.So we dont have before and after temps.What sold me on the product no water used in the system which means no corrosion to your engine,provides low,or no pressure to your system.Heres what sold me on the product the boiling point is 375 deg which means no more overheating or boilovers in heavy traffic on those hot summer days or at the dragstrip after a run.Go to this web site for more info (www.evanscooling.com)

[dq409]

Jim,,,, even so with the 375 boiling point it won`t matter much cause if she over heats she over heats,,,, just won`t be spewing green on the road,,,,


I do get the point on using this stuff and I am going to try it,,,,
Just the fact that it should run coller and more stable is what I`m after,,,,,,,,,

[Rockfish39]

Originally posted by JimKwiatkowski
Did you install a expansion tank in your system and if so what did you use?


Jimi Kwi,
I didnt install an expansion tank. No need for one. This stuff builds up low pressure, which means that from a volumetric viewpoint, it CANT expand very much...

More expansion = more pressure in a closed system.

Mine is working GREAT and doesnt spew out fluid anywhere.

Of course, part of my problem was that I used a wrong fan shroud... Phil Reed was Johnny-On-The-Spot with telling me about it, So I had to fix that too, and now Im as COOL as a CUKE!!!!

Rock:cool:

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq,I don't plan on overheating my race engine ( to much money invested) I guess what I ment to say after a run I'm running temps of 220 to 230 in the pits sometimes I might want to come back to the staging lanes and wait in line for another run.On a hot day it will boil over in the staging lanes and we have to push the car back to the pits and cool it down and re-fill the system.another reason I like the product your engine has no detonation and thats important when you want to run consistant et's in bracket racing.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Rock,you saved me somemore money.In the evans instructions it says you need run a expansion tank in your lower radiator hose.It does't make any sense why you should run expansion tank with zero pressure.With the money you saved me I should send you a repair kit for your hot tub.THANKS AGAIN

[dq409]

Jim,,, I figured you knew that but wanted to make the point so other would make that mistake.

Being an ex shop machanic,,,, always loved the dumb customer stories !!!

If you run at the track an expansion tank is a requirment !!!

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq,I know what you mean about dump customers I've worked at. F!!d dealerships for over 30 years.We have to run catch cans at the dragstrip the differance is a catch can is alot cheaper and it catches the coolent from overflow tube of the radiator when it boils over.A expansion tank alot more money is a sealed tank that catches the coolent and returns the coolent back to the radiator.In the eavans installation instructions it says to use a expansion tank.My question is how does it return the coolent back to the radiator when there's zero to low pressure in the system and you have a 7 lb cap?

[tmracing62]

An expansion tank (not a catch can, sometimes called a puke can) is primarily to purge any air from the cooling system. When the coolant gets hot, steam pockets can form, particularly in the heads near the exhaust, causing high pressures that dam up the water flow. Air does not conduct heat nearly as well as liquid either. You want all liquid in the cooling system.

To really do the job, the expansion tank has to be higher than the highest point water flows in the engine and higher than the radiator cap. In this picture, the line from the highest point comes out of the external manifold crossover tube on a big block Chevy. As temperature increases, volume increases as does pressure so the steam goes (rises) first into the tank, followed by any extra expanded coolant.

Any coolant flows out of the bottom of the tank (can’t see that line in this picture) back to the radiator. If the tank fills too much, the rest goes into the catch can. Once the system is purged and filled, that won’t happen, but do use a catch can so coolant doesn’t dribble all over (and spray up on your car). Then when the engine cools, a vacuum is created and it sucks the coolant back into the system.

The radiator cap on the top of the expansion tank must be a lower pressure cap than the one on the radiator. This one’s 16 psi on the tank and 31 on the radiator. But yours will be much lower. Fill the system at the expansion tank cap and never take off the cap on the radiator itself. When cool, there should be a puddle of coolant in the expansion tank which tells you that no air, only coolant, is in the system. If the tank is dry, add coolant and run the engine some more until some remains in the tank when all is cooled.

The circle track guys really have this down and they make the best tanks too. Just do a search on the Internet and pick a manufacturer. Certainly ask Evans too. If there’s no provision for a crossover tube, this can be a real pain to install because tapping into a head or manifold is obviously a chore. Likewise providing for a fitting on the radiator. Let me be a jerk (never stopped me before) and say you’d better understand exactly what you’re doing because it’s a pantload of work to do it right and if it’s wrong, it won’t work.

Evans may have something else in mind and there might be better and easier variations. If so, I’d like to hear it. Also, ignore the unlabelled line in this picture. I’m running a remote thermostat box and one of the lines goes there to heat the water enough to open the thermostat. You won’t need that.

[dq409]

So if you want to run that stuff you have to run one of these?

If so TM where exactly did you do the plumbing ?
Pictures? ,,, Thanks,,dq

[59elcooldsuv]

Have any of you guys ever used those new "honeycomb" core radiators?
I'm wondering if they are worth the extra bucks.

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq,I think this set up is for racing.But evans says you have to run a expansion street driving.Look at Rock's last post he did not use a tank and his 09 runs cool.

[tmracing62]

DQ -

When I looked into it about three years ago Evans didn't mention an expansion tank. As far as plumbing - I took the high point off the crossover tube on the manifold. The others I have seen did that or took it off the manifold near the thermostat housing or in back. Drill and tap for the pipe thread on the end of a -6 or -8 AN fitting. Likewise, drill a hole (gasp) in the radiator (NOT the core area) and put a -6 or -8 there too. The catch can is already set up.

Frankly, this is a lot of work and I'd only do it if necessary. If you're concerned about not completely filling the system, jack the front of the car up so the radiator cap is higher than the highest water point on the engine. Fill it, run it until the thermostat opens and top it off. On our cars, it just does not seem necessary to have an expansion tank. Really.

My setup does not apply because the return lines go back to AN fitting in the lines or the thermostat box.

[JimKwiatkowski]

TM,I started this expansion tank thing and I'm guilty of getting everyone worried about this tank.In the evans instructions they want a tank plumbed in to the lower hose because thats the suction side.They want a tank in Hi performance & Racing,antique,collector and daily driver.So dq if your not draging racing every weekend dont worry about it.So just do it like tm says and you will be fine I'm going to do the same to my 09.Rockfish said his works great.I'm sorry for all the confusion I started.I'm going to stay with intake manifold expansion tank for the drag car it' not plumbed into the lower hose but I think it will work.

[dq409]

Not a problem JimK !! No confusion just wanted it claified,,,,,
I do run just about every weekend but i`m not as serious as you guy!!!

Just having fun and not looking for that extra .001 of a second !! heee heee

So I guess what your saying is I should be OK not running one? Thanks,,dq

[JimKwiatkowski]

TM,do you think this will work?It's not plumbed into lower the hose like evans wants but dedenbear says it will take the air out the system.

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq,what kind of temps were you runing after a run?I know evans will help with consistant et's and no engine detonation that should lower your et's

[tmracing62]

Jim Kwi -

Yes, it should work. Evans wants to draw any coolant back into the system when the expansion tank is set up like mine. There's no water neck on the blower manifold on mine so that's why the thermostat box and so on. What you've got draws the air up and lets the coolant flow back as usual. I completely forgot about water neck mount expansion tanks. So I am the one that created all the confusion. You're question was a perfectly good one and now we all know more.

----

I wonder if using an expansion tank with 50/50 water and antifreeze would work. I mean if you're running 210 degrees or more in hot weather or a short blast there are probably some steam pockets and the expansion tank alone would purge any air. I just followed the filling procedure outlined before and in 70 degree weather, stop and go, blasting it a few times, running one hour or so, 800 hp, two electric fans, Ron Davis four core aluminum radiator - 180 degrees constant water temperature. The electric fans are not as efficient as a mechanical fan either. Oh - and I put in a bottle of Water Wetter too. The temp does go up to a little past 190 after going through the gears hard, but you can watch the needle go back down it cools so fast. So DQ - try a tank like Jim's first. I might too. Then maybe the Evans.

[tmracing62]

Jim Kwi -

That looks like a pretty mean engine and I noticed the forward cage strut. Tell us about you what you're building.

[JimKwiatkowski]

You must be living right I dream of temps like that.I've had my 09 in my 57 for over 20 years. In parades I can't make it all the way I have to pull out of the parade when it gets over 200.Same thing with heavy slow traffic and drag racing.This evans coolent should help.The Camaro I've had for 4 years after a run and when back in pits it would be 220 to 230 deg I've tried everthing water wetter, big 4 core radiator,electric water pump,expansion tank.Maybe this evans will work at least I wont boilover in the pits.(check photos of camaro in my photo album) 800hp!!! what kind of engine are running and what kind of car.What kind of et's are you running low 9's

[tmracing62]

Jim -

If I had the answer to overheating in hot rods I'd be a millionaire so don't think I'm trying to be a guru. There are so many variables. I'm sure you know the following, but it might spark something.

Horsepower = Energy = Heat. Coolant and airflow transport heat away. Airflow through radiator cools coolant and engine. Poor airflow moves less air through radiator and heats the slow air more so it can't cool engine as well. Cavitation and steam pockets from air bubbles in closed coolant systems keeps coolant from touching internal surfaces and creates hot spots.

Less horsepower is made during slow cruising and makes less heat, but there's also less airflow. Mechanical fans work really well, but using an electric fan as well will move more air for in town driving. Doesn't need to be a monster, just a helper. A fan shroud for electrical or mechanical fans is a must. That can make all the difference. Don't give the incoming air a place to escape before it passes over the engine. Mainly spilling down and out on the ground between the radiator and the engine. As gorky as it can look, an aluminum air dam (a tray sort of) between the engine and radiator can really help. But do give the air a place to go once it has circulated over the engine. I despised the cowl hood on my 62 Bel Air, but the hot air can rise and flow right out. If your engine compartment is all sealed up, it builds a huge, hot backpressure with no place to go.

Headers should be coated - Jet Hot or Air Born for instance - knocks 20 degrees and more off of them. You have an expansion tank so that should take care of any air in the system as long as your coolant levels are up. Water alone is not nearly as good as 50/50 water and antifreeze. Since you have been tuning the car for 20 years, a lot of the other culprits aren't relevant here.

My engine was built by Lamar Walden. It has a Lamar Walden aluminum W water pump, coated headers, and the stuff as mentioned in the other post. I've changed carbs and gained some hp over the original dyno sheets. The only time it overheated was when I left it idling without the fans on. I'm installing a switch to turn them on automatically at water temp 160 degrees to protect me from my own stupidity.

[dq409]

I can run as cool as I want with the 4 row rad , elec push fan and a flex fan inside the schroud. Tryed the wetter stuff but the elec fan did the trick !!

I want to up-grade to the alum rad and dual elec fans. Do away with the flex fan and add a sorry looking cowl scoop !!,,,,dq

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq what kind of temps were you running before your rebuild?

[tmracing62]

DQ -

Of course it's a matter of taste, but unless you need the clearance under the hood, the six inch cowl is out of proportion for your nifty six-two. The two and three inch tall cowls keep the lines much better and work just fine. Also, try to save your original steel hood and find a junker or a glass hood. That way, if or when you don't want the cowl hood, you can go back and not have cut on a good original.

Here's a picture of my radiator setup.