348 stroker using a 409 crank

[Rick Coleman]

Bubbletop '61, on the current "oil pan" thread posed a question that as yet has gone unanswered and really interests me. Basically he asked what's involved in a a "simple" (as if there is such a thing) 348 stroker motor using a 409 crank? What other parts does one have to chase down? Pistons? Rods? Pan? Dip stick? What overbore gives how many cubic inches? etc.,etc.?
As an example: I have a fresh '58 +.030 348 tri-power motor and a fresh '62 Bel Air that would be vastly more exciting with a 409 motor. I'm finding, not unexpectedly, that a 409 motor will be very pricey and the world is not beating a path to my door for my 348 motor. A more affordable possibility for me is to "Re" re-build my stock 280 h.p. 348 in a poked and stroked form. But... is this really cost effective? Is it smarter to step up to a 396-427 crank Can I run the stock '58 heads, or modify them, or should I look for different heads? I don't expect to build a world beater, but I'd like a motor that is fun and responsive. I know this is a really complex, long-winded question but I don't think I'm the only one with this on my mind. Thoughts anyone?? Thanks, Rick Coleman

[tripowerguy]

I'm thinking on the same lines as you. I think that it would cost about the same to put a 427 crank in as a 409. Way cheaper to buy. My cousin has one that he pulled from a motor that has a scratch on it. He thought that 10 or 20 thousands would clean it up. So I am buying it and gathering parts as I go so it will be ready to go and it won't be a shock to the wallet all at once. You'll have to buy pistons anyway and you might as well, make that stupid not to, use 427 rods. As for heads I would like to get some 340hp 409 heads and rework them with bigger SS valves. THe 340hp heads are as good as any high performance 348 head and are not as exspensive. Aubrey said my 58 with such a motor should do about 108 in the quarter and that would suit me just fine. THe less 409 high performance stuff you use the cheaper it is. My 2 no 4 cents worth.:D Roy

[Rick Coleman]

Roy- Thanks. Question for you...since you are mr." tri-power ", are you going to run your tri-power or put a dual quad set-up on it to have a bogus 409? If you run tri-power are the 3-2 carbs up to the task? Can they be jetted adequately? Do you run a 409 pan or modify your 348 pan? I'm really stirring the pot aren't I! Rick

[tripowerguy]

Yes I'm going to run the tripower setup because I wouldn't have a 58 with any other setup. Is it up to it? No. Would a good high performance aluminum 4 barrel or dual 4 barrel make more hp yes, probably lots more. But since drags aren't the same anymore, that is class heads up it doesn't matter if you make every last hp, only bragging rights. You can get beat by a little old lady in a AMC Pacer if she cuts a good light. I like the looks of the 3X2 setup on the early X frame cars and 2X4's on the 09 type cars but that is just my opinion. Maybe we can gather parts and if I find more I'll let you know where they are.:) Roy

[dq409]

I`ll have a set of slightly used Ross 10.5 .060 409 pistons for sale here shortly if your interested at a good price !
Just let me know,,,dq

[Tom Kochtanek]

Rick:

I, too, have been following a number of discussions from the past regarding "348 stroker combinations". Several guys have done this (CPG etal) and have suggestions as well.

Maybe being in the middle of an ongoing 409 stroker project qualifies me to comment, but since this is my first-ever engine build, I would say not! But I can tell you that it was quite a chore (and cost) to start with a 427 crank and modify that to fit the 409. I'm guessing I have about $1000 into that modification, including the balancing costs. I started with a 396 crank, but that turned out to be too worn and wouldn't clean up. Then I bought a pair of 427 cranks at the end of a swap meet for $5 (guy was tired of hauling them around I guess). One was good (the other just looked good!). So I started with that one. Had the mains turned at one shop, but they could not cut the counterweights down, so I had to go elsewhere for that. Also had the snout done, of course. I gave the machine shop a stock 409 crank as a "model", put the 427 crank side-by-side, and said: "make this so". I think the cost for both shops' labor was about $600-$700. Balancing was another $300. Not sure if those are average prices or what, but that's what it cost me. I'm happy.

I do have a 1960 348 block, with a 1960 3x2 setup. The "left over" 409 crank might be a good stroker candidate, as there is less machine shop work required to fit it up , and Aubrey tells me it's a much better chioce than the 348 crank. Not sure if counterweight reduction is needed, but will find out some day.

I'm thinking 333 truck heads, slighly modified. Reason is I have them, why not use them? This would go in my 1961 BA Sport Coupe some day. Hope your project turns out OK. What I'm finding out is you need to have a lot a patience to do a stroker, as there is a bit of "go figure" involved :). But, hey, it's not stock, it's hotrod stuff, so you need to expect this. Believe me, I do!

Hope you get some input here, as collectively we have a lot of experience here (me excluded!). Post questions like you have, listen to what people say, then make an informed decision. I did just that, but without the advise of those on these threads, I would be somewhat stymied.

Good luck!

TomK

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Guys...
A 409 crank in a 348, if you select the correct pistons, is a direct bolt in. No extra money. In essence, "FREE CUBIC INCHES".
Probably the single eastiest stroker project ever done ( ANY engine ):deal :cheers
The 348 oil pan clears ( albeit close ).
Use BBC rods, and your little 348 ( ends up around 377 CID... depending on your bore ) will just scream:cheers .

[dq409]

Oz,,, Can you use my 409 pistons in this combo with the 09 crank ?,,,dq

[CDNpontiac409guy]

No DQ, those are 409 only...+.060".
I have a set of .030" over 10:1's on hand right now, for tis combination:deal

[Travis Horton]

Use your 348 pistons, 409 crank and rods and you are finished!

[Bungy]

Travis, Actually that won't work. The 348 pistons are not machined on the bottom to clear the 409 counterweights especially with the shorter 409 rods. I tried this combo with the longer 348 rods but the pistons still hit the counterweights and needed to be machined to clear.

[348NUT]

Thanks Rick for bringing this up again! and thank you Bungy. You answered my first question. I wanted to know if the stock 348 pistons would work. O.K. Thanks to everyone. All good info! :D
NUT

[58Apache]

Soooooo where does one find a good 409 crank these days? Any chance you can get new ones somewhere?

Where do you get pistons?

Nobody has mentioned cam's ...there must be options?

I am looking for low end torque and longevity over horsepower. I hope to use mine in my truck for towing, not speed, but some extra torque and HP would be nice when I needed to pull a load up mountains.

Steve

[fatride]

Roy, The Rochester three twos will support up to 500 HP. Jetting would be around 63 center and 65 for the ends.
:deal

[bobs409]

Originally posted by 58Apache
Soooooo where does one find a good 409 crank these days? Any chance you can get new ones somewhere?
Where do you get pistons?
Nobody has mentioned cam's ...there must be options?
Steve


Steve,

I believe used is all you'll find in the crank department but for parts such as pistons and cams and most anything else, check our link page. I have vendors listed there that sell parts for our beloved engines.

ebay and our wanted section are good places to try for a crank.


Bob

[Phil Reed]

About 15 years ago we built a 348 using a 409 crank and rods. I believe we were .060" over which made 383 CI. We did not have to grind the pistons skirts but we ordered new forged pistons. I have not heard of the skirts interferring but I believe Bungy when he said his did. Maybe he was using stock 348 cast pistons but I don't remember this being a problem with our engine.

Also, the 348 oil pan was too shallow in the front for the 409 counter weights, so we had to use a 409 oil pan. Plus, it added more oil capacity.

The reason this all works is that the 409 stroke is 1/4" longer than a 348 but the 409 rod is 1/8" shorter than a 348. Use a stock 348 piston, as far as the wrist pin placement is concerned, and you should be good to go!! We had 690 heads and an Algon fuel injection on this engine. BOY...did it grab the RPM"S!!!!!!! Then Brian put it in a boat and about killed himslef!!!! Aubrey is right...this is a cheap stroker and tons of fun to drive!!!

[dq409]

Phil/Aubrey,,,,,, What kind of RPM can you get with this combo???

[Phil Reed]

DQ:

With the Algon fuel injection, RotoFaze ball bearing distributor and Isky 505-C roller cam......I'd swear on a stack of 63 Owners manuals that it hit 11,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

Probably not......but that was the fastest reving 409 engine I've ever been around!!! I know for sure it was over 7000 but how far...I can't tell you. But it was VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!!

[fourspeed409]

Phil
I am missing something here. 1/4" longer stroke but 1/8" shorter rod on the 409. I am thinking that the stock 348 pistion is now sticking out of the hole 1/8" with 409 crank and rods in a 348? Probably just my brain not working right is why something is not making sense to me.
Oh BTW I am doing some Toursim Nova Scotia stuff at work so I will se if I can get some info mailed to you. Can you email me your mailing address?
Shane

[Bungy]

Shane, I can see where you are confused. So, I'll take a crack at explaining it. The piston actually moves up the cylinder only 1/8" higher, then as the crank rotates around and pulls the piston down it pulls it down the same amount farther which is 1/8" lower in the cylinder giving a total of 1/4" more stroke. Make sense?

[fourspeed409]

Man I am dumb.

[bubbletop61]

Fourspeed 409
Getting a red face on this forum is reeeaaaal easy, but I for one would thank you for posting your question, cause I was scratchin' my head too, over the math on this same thing. I feel like a wide eyed kid every time I read what the MASTERS have to say about engine builds here. My face automatically goes to a light shade of pink as soon as the forum opens up LOL.... Almost every week there is something on this board, that I never even thought would be a consideration in engine building. Everyone's a contributor here, and what is happening is the knowledge base is being spread and shared freeely, and documented. I know enough about craftsmen to know that we apprentices fill an important role for them. HEE HEE HAAAW
BBTP61

[Tom Kochtanek]

You can count me in your group of Apprentices :)

Working with the Masters, even while "at a distance", has been quite rewarding. We all have a lot to learn, and believe me, I am figuring that out fast!

Cheers
TomK

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Absolutely !
I'm sure we ALL get that "man, am I dumb" feeling here sometimes;)
Glad I wasn't alone:rolleyes: :D

[348NUT]

This combo is sounding better all the time! :) I've never been around roller cams. How does the noise compare with a flat solid cam and how often do you need to adjust them? Any engine I'd build would get driven up to 10,000 miles a year so I'm just wondering what is practical. 7,000 rpm sounds really fun! :eek: NUT

[Phil Reed]

NUT:

Just wait until the Convention...........you will be able to hear a 474 with a roller camshaft on the DYNO!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

[348NUT]

You don't have to bait me like that. I'm coming anyway! But thanks for reminding me of that fact! :D :D :D

[dq409]

You do know that one thing will happen at the convention don`t you ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

We will all (most of us) go home trying to figure how to go as fast as THOSE GUYS !!!!!:D :D :D HEE HEE

[63z11]

Hey nut, let me address your question. There is no difference in sound except maybe at the tail pipe.:)
And I really never noticed them to need more adjustments than a flat tappet solid. A far as longevity I have run several on the street for the kind of milage your talking. If you get into real radical profiles then the valve springs need to be checked more often. To run 7000 plus all the time requires more care on other items though. Decent valve train components are a must to reliably run alot of rpm. Good luck Eric
:cheers

[dq409]

They do have more db then a flat tappet (exhaust)!!!! Right OZ ????

[oil4kids]

Aubrey says

Guys...
A 409 crank in a 348, if you select the correct pistons, is a direct bolt in. No extra money. In essence, "FREE CUBIC INCHES".
Probably the single eastiest stroker project ever done ( ANY engine )
The 348 oil pan clears ( albeit close ).
Use BBC rods, and your little 348 ( ends up around 377 CID... depending on your bore ) will just scream .




**********however*********
the webbing on some or most 348 blocks are not machined under the main caps to accept the 409 crank so the block has to be machined to clear the counter weights- which will cost a few bucks

[348NUT]

Were some blocks machined and some not? and why?

[oil4kids]

heres a photo of a 409 with the webbing material machined off


I saw one 348with webbing machined but had extensive work and was cut 60 over. It was a very late casting

When I spoke to Lamar Walden last year he did mention some 348s with 962 X castings that had 409 features.

Who knows

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Well... now I'm bummed...
I will go to the shop, drag out all 4 348 blocks, set the main bearing shells in, and see if I can rotate the 409 crank:confused:
I've done it 3 times now, 3 different casting number blocks.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Just checked 3 different blocks. All 3755011 casting number... two 59's and a 60.
Set the shells in, and put lube on them.
Set a standard original 409 crank in.
Did NOT use the thrust ( rear ) shell, so the crank can "walk" back and forth a bit.

Results:

As expected,
In all the blocks, the 409 CRANKSHAFT ROTATES FREE AND CLEAR OF ANY INTERFERENCE FROM WITHIN A 348 ENGINE BLOCK.
I have also confirmed this in the past in a 1958 block.

Now that THAT is cleared up
:rolleyes: ...

Gentlemen,
BUILD your FREE strokers:deal :cheers

[348NUT]

Thank you Mr. Bruneau! You've given me hope again! :D I'll take you up on that free stroker deal! but the least I can do is supply the parts. :deal :p NUT

[threeimpalas]

My 3857655 block looks like the picture of the block posted above. Nothing present that looks like it'd interfere with a 409 crank.

[SteveD409]

Did all you guys just recently figure this one out!!!? :) I have been interested in stroking a 348 using a 409 crank for a couple of years but the only suggestions I got back then when my pistons hit the crank was to turn the counterweights down and rebalance using "heavy metal" (whatever that is)! :confused: I gave up on the idea until Aubrey came up with his pistons using BB rods!

Man this has been a great thread-thanks

SteveD