283 Crank and rod question

[pappoo07]

I bought a crank and bearing kit for my 283. It came with size .10 bearings. I installed the kit into my engine but couldn't torque the rods to specs. The mains were fine however. I then bought .020 bearings for the rods, and was able to torque them. The engine now drops oil pressure after it heats up, and I'm just wondering if the crank/rod combo is the cause of it. According to the mechanic that recently looked over the engine, the rods have a "small journal." I'm just wondering if I have a incompatible setup.

I plan on tearing the engine down tomorrow and taking the rods and crank to a machine shop to get measurements on them to see if they match up. Some friends just told me they do not, but I would like to know from you guys before I waste my time taking them there. I'm new to all this so if I'm not making any sense, I apologize.

[1911]

small journal cranks were 2.30" main 2.00" rod standard. Medium journal 2.45"main 2.100"rod. Large[400] 2.65"main 2.100"rod. all 283's were small journal. If you ordered and recieved the correct kit for a 283 than you should have small journal bearings. Whenever you rebuild an engine, before you order any parts, all components must be inspected and measured. If you were trying to crush .010" oversized bearings onto a standard 2.000" journal than I could understand the couldn't torque it part which should also have locked up the crank but then you say you installed .020" oversized and got them to torque which doesn't make sense either. That should have been even worse. You can not guess at the journal diameters when building an engine, or bore size or anything else. Good dial calipers are a must and can get you by, but micrometers with the vernier scale to read tens of thousandths and will lock are the only/ best way to check shaft taper and out of round. If I understand you correctly than you don't know the exact diameters or you would have known the correct bearings to order and that the kits bearings were wrong. Start over and hope nothing was damaged beyond repair. Have the crank shop measure the crank. Many good books are available to take you step by step thru a rebuild and if you follow it exactly then a rebuild will go trouble free. Don't give up! hearing an engine that YOU just rebuilt sing for the first time is a great feeling. I've done hundreds and that feeling doesn't go away. By the way, 15 years as a heavy mechanic, chevy garage, engine builder at a shop that specializes in alcohol 410 sprinter engines, etc... hundreds is being modest. so any joe pro reading this feel free to fire away.

[1911]

By the way, the crank kits are supposed to come with the correct bearings, but I've had two in the past which had the wrong bearings. I've even had one crank with two different diameters. Trust no one but yourself and measure everything, including new parts and don't give the other guy a chance to screw you.

[pappoo07]

Thanks for the encouragement 1911. I couldn't remember the bearing sizes, but I checked one of the bearing boxes that came with the crank and it says .10.. NOT .010. Is .10 even a bearing size? I might be reading that wrong however. There is another sticker on the box that says 2020CP10.. so maybe they were in fact .020 bearings that were sent.. or maybe larger bearings sent in the wrong box? I really have no idea. My dad was leading this rebuild but its becoming apparent to me that he doesn't know as much as he thought he knew. I guess his memory of these engines is getting fuzzy. Basically everything I'm posting here is from what I remember him telling me so I apologize if I was confusing.

But anyway here's the good part. In the past year and a half (since when we first put the crank kit in) the car probably hasn't been driven more than 50 miles. So I doubt anything has been badly damaged from the incorrect parts. As I mentioned, I will be tearing the engine apart tomorrow, so I will hopefully do it on my own the correct way this time. I will have the shop measure my crank and look at my rods and bearings to let me know what I did wrong. Hopefully they will be able to set me up with the right parts. Again, thanks for your help and encouragement and if I run into any snags, I'll be posting them here!

[1911]

sounds like a good plan. I couldn't get to sleep thinking about this so before anyone calls me on playing fast and loose with my terms, I choose the word oversized carefully because it didn't look like you understood that the hole in the assembled rod and bearing gets smaller as you increase the undersize of a bearing. Anyway if you had an interference problem with a .010 under bearing a .020 under would have been worse. If I was at the shop I'd look that number up to be sure but normally the 10 at the end of the part number would mean .010" undersize. Most cranks that have been ground have the undersize stamped on a counterweight, but with kits it depends on who did the work. I've had bearings stamped in metric and every mfg. seems to identify the undersize their own way. clevite & federal mogul normally in thousandths. I would guess the .10 on your bearings means .010" under but guessing don't cut it. Thats why it's so important to measure everything. Even on rods we resize they get torqued and measured with the bearings installed and the crank then measured to determine oil clearance. I didn't go that far in my dealer days, just measured the crank and made sure I had the right size bearing, then used plastigage to be certain. But when you said you jumped from a .010 under to a .020 under without measuring my jaw dropped. I can't believe you could still turn the crank! If you haven't turned the engine upside down yet, don't. Pull the filter can and look for debris in the bottom of the can, if you've converted it to a spin on then cut the top off the filter without turning it upside down and pull the paper element and look for debris in the bottom. If you see anything you don't like then pull the pan off with the engine right side up so any junk in the pan stays in the pan. You can get a good idea of what if any problems you have by the debris. Once the pan is off if you see any main caps or rods that have turned black [heat/carbonized oil] those are problems. If a rod cap won't slip off the rod bolts once its off the knurled part of the bolt then I'd scrap that rod. You said you drove it 50 miles, didn't it knock, act like it had no power or was loosing power? Anyway let me know what you find out. I worked with a mechanic in Grand Rapids Mi. 20 years ago and He made a similar mistake, His 454 only lasted about 5 miles before welding itself solid.

[pappoo07]

I get what you're saying. There's two stickers on the bearing box that came with the crank. There's one that says "2020CP10", then there's another that says "3905CP.10". The brand is McQuay-Norris. I think it was a cheap crank kit ordered out of JC Whitney. I'll cut the oil filter and see if there's any metal pieces in it, althought it was just put in a year ago, while very few miles on it.. I'd say 20-30.

Driving the car, I did notice a slight loss of power, but no knocks or anything of the sort. My dad said there's a slight noise from the bearings rattling, but nothing my inexperienced ear could pick up. I'm not sure when I will get the parts to the engine shop, but hopefully I'll have the motor completely disassembled tomorrow. I think it will be a good learning experience for me. The engine already has problems, so I'm not too concerned about screwing it up more :D. I'll be sure to post any discoveries I make. Thanks again for your insight. It is very appreciated.

[dq409]

One of the best recommendations 1911 made was get a good book on building SBC`s !
You will learn alot and once you read the book the mystery of building an engine will be gone and you will have the basic principals.
They really are not that had to rebuild once the machine work is done properly and you have the correct parts.

[Fran Preve]

'poo07: (I'm watching NHRA Sportsman racing from Gainsville right now), anyway, I'll post here instead of the Ebay site, this one is better.
Hit print, make copies of all this.

1911 has given you excellant advice, dq's comments were good too. Frankly "newbie" is being kind, man you need HELP!. But that's GOOD, because that's how you learn. I have dozens and dozens of magazine articles on how to rebuild a small block, couple of books too, and the FIRST thing to do is take their advice and go to a speed shop and buy a book on rebuilding a small block. Then read cover to cover, then read it again. If you got any questions post here and a bunch of guys will help you. There are two ways to do this, my way, the way I learned, or 1911's way, the RIGHT way, the BEST way. My way is quick and dirty, and works, and gets you thru your first rebuild, and first start up, point being, you can spend a lot of money, or get your feet wet spending a little.

Before this goes any farther, how torn down is this motor NOW?. If the crank is out, and the rods, are the rods off the pistons?. This would change what I said on the ebay sales site. What did you do with the pistons and rings?. From what you said, like 1911 said, something doesn't compute, we need to know more. I think this might be better as a "practice" motor, and you should do what I said about chasing down a good running 350 and then doing what I said to that. No, it's not a total rebuild, but your not experianced enough to go whole hog right now. Leave the block and heads togther, do a cam/manifold change, get it back together, get it running, get what 1911 calls the "feeling', then do more as you gain experiance, and money!.

Start over, buy the rebuilding book, keep it simple, and DON'T spend money. Maybe when your ready you can do a 409 all by your own self, I think you can, with help. But right now you sound like your in over your head for your experience.

[pappoo07]

Alright Fran (and others).. here's where I'm at..

Did some disassembling for a few hours on Wednesday, got everything to the point where the block is almost ready to come out. All I need to do is unbolt it from the tranny and unbolt it from the mounts. The heads are still on the block. Intake is off. I don't really mind this being a 'practice' motor.. I was basically jumping into it with the idea of practice/learning in mind.

So what you're saying is I should just stop disassembling and buy a book? Usually I like to learn things through experience, but I think the book might be my best bet, since I'm pretty inexperienced at all this. The upside of it all is that my available funds will be growing as I sit and educate myself over the next few weeks. I think I could have over enough for a 409 in a year from now, but my goal this year was to get the car on the road by APRIL at the LATEST. I'd really hate to have it sit another year. I've hopefully got many years ahead of me to get a 409, so waiting until next year for one doesn't seem rational at this time when I just want to drive the car.

I'll look around over the next few days for a SBC rebuilding book. Although I'm not a big fan of reading, I'll suck it up and do it. I really think it will be worth it in the end.

[Fran Preve]

Poo, poo, poo, what are we (am I) going to do with you?. It's late, I'm tired, I'll respond to this last post tomorrow evening. In the mean time (and I wish you were in the same town as me so I could come over and hold your hand!). You MUST find a book on rebuilding the small block, you MUST have a speed shop close by, and they all have book racks, get one on the basics. YOU CAN NOT LEARN WITHOUT ONE!, or having an EXPERIENCED person hold your hand!. You've already found out what happens when you "go it alone". Rebuilding an engine is a piece of cake, ONCE YOU KNOW HOW!. You don't. You can and will learn, and once you do you'll be proud. In the meantime, you can NOT do anything but a quick and dirty rebuild in the next month, doing it MY way, searching out a car etc will take you into May and June at least. Maybe someone can come up with a better answer.................................later.

[1911]

Not knowing what Fran's down & dirty method is, I'll say that every engine I've ever encountered that was rebuilt by a novice alone exhibited major problems. The root of these problems was always the lack of knowledge required to identify a problem and what would be the correct repair. The probability of building an engine right, by the seat of your pants, is slim to none! I have seen rebuilding books which take you step by step which will keep you out of trouble, but the reading is all tech and very dry. I personally read everything printed by the best known builders to find out what mods they make for more power/reliability in a racing environment. This keeps my interest, gives me ideas and each new book tells me something I didn't know. These types of books should suppliment the dry reading manual, and as you learn and understand the more detailed work of race engine prep & building the steps shown in the basic manual will make more sense. As far as throwing a cam in a stocker engine, books by Smokey, Grumpy, Lingenfelter, all do a good job of explaining things like high lift cams having reduced base circles requireing longer pushrods to correct valvetrain geometry, dynamic cyl. pressure loss with more overlap, higher compression pistons require the crank to be rebalanced on and on. You may already know all this stuff, but the factory spent alot of time designing parts to complement each other and fit and clear other parts, etc... So if you plan on making any modifications like a cam change use the cool books to show you what effects the new parts have on the entire system. We keep busy at the shop because people try to do it themselves without learning these things first, every part has to work together with all the others and knowing which parts will work together is why were in business. It's not that you can't learn most of what a speed shop knows, it's that most people won't take the time to learn, and most of what there is to know is in print. P.S. I'm not saying speed shops are unnecessary and if you memorize all these books then you'll know as much as the speed shop, as experience is priceless. It would however be refreshing to have a new customer which spoke my language and not the 3/4 race cam, can we use these parts I bought at a swap meet crap. Anyone who asks what I think while at the shop will first get a gentle quiz, and if they know enough that I can talk to them at or near my level then they get more answers because I don't have time to teach basic 101 internal combustion. The moral is the more you know, the more the people with answers will be willing to spend time talking with you.

[jester]

The wind is blowing in a different direction.

[1911]

spoken like a true 409 ahhhhh enthusiast. sorry 409's were something which I would pass on in my youth as mark IV's were more in my price range and parts were more plentiful. That said I kick myself every day for passing on 2 409's at a local bone yard when I was 16, but who knew, muscle cars were used for winter beaters back then and I thought the 409 was cool but what the heck would I ever do with them. My interest was only recently revived with the opportunity to play with a couple. This guy, with a little help, should have no problem getting his car on the road with a minimal expense using the SBC sounds like the 409's in his plan but if he's going to learn on something then the 283 is a good choice, and anything one does should be done to the best of his abilities. blah, blah, blah...

[dq409]

Poo,,, With your time frame and lack of experience I still say a crate or local rebuilt long block would be the way to go, and might, no,,,, "WILL" be cheaper.
Here locally you can get an engine from several reputable rebuilders cheaper then you can have just the machine wook done. And you get a warrantee !
I know you want to learn but having a good running engine without any problems is more fun ! A LOT MORE FUN !!!!
Once you have that you can learn the basics as in, tuning, upgrades and keeping it in top form.
It`s the little things overlooked that turn a fun engine project into a very expensive learning nightmare !
BELIEVE ME !!!! Even with my knowledge I`m just coming out of a VERY long expensive nightmare !!!!
If you truely want to learn to rebuild an engine do it AFTER your car is running with a good engine and you ARE NOT racing the clock !!!!
These last few posts are good infoand advice and we are just trying to point you in the right direction.
Good luck,,,,,dq :D

[63z11]

Hey poo, Like dq said. The crate motor route is probably a better choice right now. Its nice of Fran and 1911 to try and help you out but, for what you can buy a done small block for YOU would be better off. Wait a couple years, learn some things and then give it a shot. JMO Eric

[Fran Preve]

I agree with that last post, check around your area and see what engine shops are selling long blocks (block and heads) then put your 283 parts on it and be done with it. Maybe a carb and intake. Sell the 283 for what you can get, maybe more than you figure. And change the ignition over to HEI, very cheap and very simple. You'll need a SHORT water pump to use your pulley's and brackets. And keep your exhaust manifolds. If you decide to do it this way start another topic and ask what you'll need to pull this off. Someone may need a early 283, and you don't need the aggravation it seems you'll be getting into.

People posting here are trying to be helpful, and if we were all together we could solve the kids problems easy as 1,2,3 (and a fist fight or two!). Now that I've retired I hope o be able to help young guys get there start here around Buffalo, for the satisfaction of helping someone get started.

That said, Chevy Hype, Super Chevy and Car Craft are magazines 'poo07 MUST subscribe to!. And any of you who don't should too. There have been a LOT of articles on building up engines, and DYNO TESTING THEM to see what works and what doesn't. In the last 12 months they've done MANY articles on camshafts and camshaft theroy, after reading them all you'll be just as confused as I am, what's best?. 1911 and I could sit down of a couple of beers and 'noodle" back and forth THAT question!. After 3 or 4 beers we could SHREIK at one another "you don't know what the F your talking about!!!". Then the fists would fly!.

I'm only kidding, there many ways to build a motor, 1911 does it "by the book", I tend to do it quick and dirty (at times). Put his motor against my motor on a track and mine will do quite well. Drive it 100,000 miles (and don't keep a case of oil in the trunk!) and his will be MUCH, MUCH better than mine!. But I'm a "barnjobber" without a lot of money, and talent.1911 is EXPERIENCED, and has access to all the tools and machines to do it RIGHT!.

All taht said, for 'poo07 I'll stand by my first post, find a late '70's/early '80's car or truck with a rotten body and interior and a 350 with good compression, keep the engine/transmission, junk the car, change the cam and intake, and leave the block and heads alone. It's a way to START, and move on from there.

'poo07, I'll be at the Grove at Super Chevy, maybe we can sit down and discuss all this. Look for the street driven 1985 Camaro with EFI running the high 9's, he'll be pitted with the 1976 Kingswood Estate wagon also street driven running the mid 10's. Anyway, I'd like to be able to sit down with you and just BS. Like DQ said, take it a step at a time, and don't get in over your head to start.

[1911]

Fran, you gave good advice, sometimes I forget that things are cheaper for me. Something I would like to add is it seems to me odd that every engine I've seen sold at a junk yard had about 70k according to them, regardless of what a teardown reveals. I would feel more comfortable with the used car / good engine idea however that too requires you know signs of trouble to look for. The crate engine would be my choice if any of the above suggestions look good. As far as they go, a partial or long block from chevrolet is my preference, as jasper as well as every other non G.M. remanufacturer that we tried at the dealer proved problematic, price check and I think you'll find G.M. competitive. Definitely the fastest way to get the car on the road. I just hope that this aspiring gearhead doesn't take the easy road and turn into one of those guy's who claim to have built their car when in truth they just paid to have other people build it.

[bobs409]

I bought an engine from a local junkyard for my truck and had great luck!

I was just about ready to leave when I spotted a 1974 Impala just arrived so I asked if it had a good TH350 trans in it. (mine was starting to slip when doing the 2-3 shift) The owner of the yard told me to go test drive it so I took it for a drive up the road and back. Trans worked perfectly and it ran good, no smoke and quiet so I decided to take the engine and trans! For $275 dollars, I got both and never been happier.

That car showed 69,000 miles but I always suspected more. (maybe even 169,000?) I put almost 100,000 miles on it since then and only had to replace the timing chain/gears in all that time! (other than maintanence/tune up stuff)


Be warned though, it doesn't always work out so good. :( I had a local garage buy an engine from a junkyard and install it into a piece of crap Plymouth Arrow I used to drive around in during my teen years and it turned out to be a crop duster! Blue smoke from every red light! :mad: What a piece!

Too much money spent with the install to return it so I drove it. (and attended every off road beer party I could find) :D Eventually the driver seat started falling through the floor and the wiring fried but I had some fun with it. Oops, im getting off track now.



So, I suggest similar to Fran. Get a running engine so you can use the car now, and rebuild the 283 you have either yourself when your ready or professionally. Just tuck it away for now.

[pappoo07]

The running junkyard engine sounds like a good way to go. I decided to call a local GM Parts center to get a price on a longblock. The price he gave me was $1311. Definitely competitive. HOWEVER (big however).. he said GM is starting to require core exchanges for their 350 longblocks! WTF!? Has anyne else heard of this happening?

[Southtowns27]

$1311 for a longblock? Ouch... Try calling around to local machine shops, you might be able to do better than that. The guy that builds all my race engines built me a complete 283 intake to pan for $1000. I didn't even have to give him a core. I literally handed him a grand and took home a monster of a 283. Actually, Fran may have heard of this place, B&L Racing Engines in Collins. (I live in Colden, NY, about 45 minutes from Fran). It definately wouldn't hurt to make a few more phone calls. I'm with everyone else on the "get it running and rebuild your engine later" theory. That way you'll be able to really take your time with it. I know how to, and have rebuilt engines before, but I've found that it's MUCH easier to have my builder do them for me since I have limited time. Definately keep us posted on your progress. Good luck!

[Fran Preve]

South: no can't say I have heard of B&L, but everybody seems to agree buy something you can bolt in, then play with the old motor. 'poo isn't ready to build his own, yet, but I'm sure he will. Like youse guys said, there's nothing like firing up your first "own" motor. Even if he starts with a cam and intake. Once he does he'll never go back (although if i have to have a block bored I'll let THEM asemble the short block!).

[pappoo07]

I'm going to buy a rebuild book once school and work settle down a little. I've been REEEEAALLL busy recently. Hopefully I'll study the book all summer and have a decent understanding of engines in the near future...

But I'm still lookin for an answer from my previous post.. The guy at the GM performance parts center told me there is now a $100 core charge on all GM 350 long blocks. He said GM is probably going to start selling the 350s as remanufactured engines and do away with the 'new' long blocks to keep costs down. Was this guy trying to put one over on me or can someone verify this?

If this is indeed the case, I can only hope jegs, summit, or sdpc will still be able to sell me a 'new' long block (w/o core exchange). I fear that they will also start doing core charges since they probably get thier GM engines through GM. :(


I still got that swap meet coming up in a week. If I don't find anything there, I will try to get a warrantied GM 350 long block from a catalog. If I can't find a way to do that without a core exchange, then I will explore all the junk yards in my area. I will have it all figured out within the next few weeks.

[bobs409]

I recommend the book, "How to rebuild your small block Chevy" by David Vizard. It's a great reference and easy to read/understand. Don't expect to read it once and know everything though. I must have read this book 6 times by now! :p

This book was published by HP Books and brand new cost $9.95 and was made in 1978 but there may be newer ones. Check ebay for a good used one. A book like this won't stay clean long so used is fine. (the good ones never do!) :D

[Southtowns27]

I haven't heard anything about the core charge, but I wouldn't be surprised if they start doing it. First generation 350's (what you're looking for) are actually starting to get hard to find. My guess is that the factory wants them back instead of them going to the boneyard. Just my theory anyway...

[Fran Preve]

This not a statement of FACT but I've heard the over the counter engines, specifically the low horse ones are made in Mexico. I've heard something about watching out for "mexican" blocks. The block is the only thing they need to build these engines, everything else is "outsourced" except for the head if they cast the block in Mexico they also cast the head.

As a side note, Tonawanda began tearing out the old Mark IV case job (it had been replaced completely with a new Mark V case job), when the suddenly had to put it all back together!. Seems they had an order for 15,000 cases bought by an engine REBUILDER in Texas!. This rebuilder (and their name escapes me) was using NEW cases rebuilding motors. So they ran off these motors and then tore everything out.

[1911]

we returned all GM crate replacement engines for core refund, I refer to the "target" engines rebuilt by or for GM. This was true 1980 thru 1996. Partial & fitted blocks as well as over the counter performance engines did not at that time require an exchange. If the price quote was for a target engine then the core charge is nothing new. The target was a rebuilt, complete oil pan to rocker covers, minus intake. It was ordered as a replacement for a specific make, model, year, and was the cheapest. This is the engine I would think the quote would be for and would be a fast way to get finished. If you can find a running 70's thru 86 chevy truck with a original 350 then even if it wasn't perfect, once your 283 was done you would have a 350 4 bolt block to use for your next engine build. I forgot that perk about getting a used running engine. If you look hard and long you may even happen across a 400, lousy stock engine but can be built into something wild. Junk trucks where I live go pretty cheap and normally you don't have to look at many before finding a 4 bolt. The rebuilt would be a guarantee of no problems, used veh. running you would at least get to hear the engine run before purchasing, bone yards a gamble and you won't know anything until it's installed. So I guess it comes down to how much money you got or how lucky you are.

[Fran Preve]

1911: or someone?. It's my understanding that ALL 350 FOUR BARREL truck engines were 4 bolt AND had a forged crank to boot. I don't know beyond 77 as far as the forged crank is concerned. All the ads I see today for the "up to '87" 350 crate engine do not mention a core charge, as in NONE I've seen. But I've never bought one (a friend did for replacing a 305 in a Monte SS). I'd like to have more input here.

400's: In 1988 I built a 400 for a 1979 Malibu I had. 1976 engine, 61,000 miles. Put in a Comp Cams 268h cam with a 108 centerline (they changed it later to 110), Wiend 8004 duel plane, Holley 600 vac, headers and not much else. The car was a complete DOG!. So much so I didn't even want to drive it (and I had done the body, interior, was a nice car). Well I decided to dump the car so I built a mild 307, put that in and pulled the 400.
A year later I bought a shorty C10 "box" (van), painted it a chocolet brown, did a homemade conversion, turned out pretty nice. But it had a 6 so because I was going to tow with it I decided to put the "dog" 400 in it, also with headers. Finished the conversion, my mechanic buddy and I took it out on the street, punched it, and our eyes got the size of saucers!. IT RAN!. The malibu scaled at 3400 lbs, the van at 4400 lbs. The Malibu would SOMETIMES run a low 10 (1/8th), usually high ten. DOG!. The van did 10 flats on a bad day, high 9's on a good one. After a couple of years driving it I ran it at Maple Grove at a Super Chevy, 15.30's/15.40's at 90mph. Now this was a 2 ton plus BRICK!.
Why?. Well call me stupid, I never changed or thought about the rear end in the 'bu, which was either a 2.41 or 2.29! (it had a 267 to start). The van had a 3.08. What if I had put a 3.55 or 3.73 in it?. One like that ran 9 flat's or better.
And I could put a 3300 lb Corvette on an open trailer anad it would tow like it wasn't there. That engine all dirty and oily sits on a stand in my garage, it'll go in SOMETHING someday!.

OK, now when I pulled the original 2 barrel intake off I pulled the fitting for the heater hose, guess what, it almost TOTALLY blocked the thermostat crossover!. I never saw one as long, before or since. 400's had cooling problems?. This MIGHT have been one of the problems, it's something I'd like to check on other motors. In my case I ran a 5 blade thermofan (stock from the six), and a 3 core radiator with SIXTEEN fins per inch. My radiator shop recommended it for towing, said fins per inch were more important than a 4 core. In any event, with a 180 thermostat I never had an overheating problem towing, hot or cold out, up or down hills, never. I think the over heating "story" was just that, a bad rap on 400's.

I have another 400 in my wife's 79 Vette, which had an L-82 in it. This one has a Edlebrock Performer, 750 3310, Comp Cams 270, S/R Torquer heads and headers. It has 3.08 gears and a T350 with a 56-5700 shift point built in. With the L-82 it ran 9.30's/.40's. With the 400 the best I could get was a 8.70, with no consistancy. The L-82 would go 99mph, the 400 98. Why?. I'll find out, right now I think it's in the exhaust, which is only 2" (it should be 2 1/2). I'll replace that with the correct 2 and 1/2 with Flowmasters. Then take a hard look at the fuel system.

Long stories, anyway, if you put a 400 in ANYTHING treat it like a big block, because it is. That means 2 1/2 inch exhaust AT LEAST with efficient mufflers. 3/8th's fuel line a minimum, and put a 3.08 gear or better in it, 3.55 would be a GOOD gear, with a 2000 converter.

PS: with the price of cranks what they are today, if you haven't got a 400 and your going to rebuild the engine don't bother, put a SCAT crank in a 350 and build a 383.

[1911]

Fran, the biggest problem with the 400 was the cyl. heads. 170 cc intake runner volume is great for a 302 a little small for a 350 and junk for a 400. 200 cc's is the min. and that only for a tow veh. or mild street / strip. Change your heads to the dart 200 cc sportsman or larger and along with the exh. I think you'll be happy. The scat crank is comparable to the eagle cast crank for $200 or so right? if thats the one then the cast cranks from GM hold up a lot better. We've seen several of those cheap cranks snap in mild street engines. We won't use those cranks, maybe for a stock rebuild they would be OK but thats all the further I'd trust them. The HD truck engines were the 350's with non treated steel cranks. 10 - 30 series 350 4bbl engines had cast cranks. I don't know if the adds you see already have the core cost added to the price or not, but if it wasn't for that core charge I'd have a lot more 4 bolters in my barn. I never saw a pipe nipple or coolant valve block the passage as you describe, but if there wasn't a complaint I wasn't looking, interesting possibility. We didn't have many overheating complaints either, but once an engine gets a bad rap it's hard to correct. The 410's we use in the sprint car make over 700 HP, no other n.a. sbc can do anywhere near that, and we plug the steam holes, pump by-pass, and core holes in the deck, [.125" hole drilled thru the plug] and add an inch of fill to the jacket, and they don't overheat unless something is screwed up. A friend built a 406 to put in his 3800# car about 10 years ago. He used a 509 010 020 block 2 bolt with ARP's factory cast crank, early [thicker] stock 350 rods and very heavy trw's with pins thicker and heavier than anything I'd seen before. He used brownfield 220 spread centerline heads and .675 int/.625 exh mech. roller from a top nozzle sprint car. I helped him assemble this then and told him he was building a grenade. That was 10 years ago, we raced the car for three years and the engine is still together. If I look at a moroso slide calculator it says 460 hp to the wheels to make 4000# go 11.50 quarter mile et, the engine dyno said a little over 550 if I remember right. This is why I'm a believer in GM castings, something doesn't add up when the chinese can cast a crank, machine it then ship it across an ocean mark it up and sell it for a little more than $200. We pay around $100 to have a crank ground and the last I checked it was $450 for a new cast crank thru GM. PM me your engine specs and I'll run them thru a computer program we use, so far it's been within 5% of the numbers we get off the engine dyno so I trust it. I'll see if I can tell you the best head and tube size etc.

[Fran Preve]

1911: what you say is all correct, but you build beyond me, and for good reason. As far as the cranks are concerned, I'd trust a SCAT but have heard about people having problems with some "no name" cranks. The comment on the rods was a good one, I just found out about the lighter small block rod recently.

Go back to my comment that a 400 is a big block, and it is!. Basically it's a 396 bore and stroke (let's not quibble about .010 crank spec's). My point being and your comment is that 170's are SMALL for this size motor. At least the S/R's are 2.02/1.60's. I'd be very interested in how a Vortec would run, they put them on 383's, even with the 1.94/1.50's. I've never read an engine test with Vortec's that they didn't add significant horsepower. That said, I'm a cheap son of a B, but 200 Sportsmans or a Canfield aluminum may be in my future.

The 400 I'm working with right now is in a 1979 Corvette street/strip car. I have a major limit caused by hood height, I WANT an Air-Gap but could never close the hood. Even an RPM with a 1/2 wood spacer is dicey. If it wasn't a Vette and I was starting from scratch it would be a 383 with and Air-Gap and Vortecs.

I'll PM you with Van engine specs.

[supernova]

i have a full roller 406 with dart 230cc iron eagle heads(2.05/1.168 valves), weiand stealth intake,crane cam(.600/.625 lift), gear drive,holley 750 mechanical secondary and of course the msd ignition (must have for a race motor) that 1911 and brisbane put together for me this baby screams!