61 SS ?s

[Bungy]

Was over at Chevy Talk site and seems to be some questions concerning a couple of 61 SS cars on ebay. One was questioned because it didn't have power brakes another because it has a 6 cyl VIN. Well, both seem to be bogus but my question is couldn't you have a 61 SS with manual brakes and could you get an SS with a 6 cyl?

[real61ss]

Bungy,
The following is a copy of a post that I wrote over on the other Chevrolet forum a few weeks ago when a similiar guestion came up. Also, the owner of one of those cars on ebay, the original 6 cly. posted a revised description stating that it was a "built" car. I hope this answers your questions concerning 1961 Impala SS's.

Every now and then this question comes up. I don't know if Chevrolet intended to create a "mystery car" when they built the 61 SS but they sure did a whale of a job!! I've made this statement before but these are probably the hardest cars to correctly identify and the easiest ones to clone ever built, all this while being some of rarest and most desirable cars produced by Chevrolet.
Let me attempt to answer your question. RPO-240, Impala Super Sport Equipment, was available on any 1800 (Impala)series model except the Nomad station wagon. The equipment consisted of SS emblems on the deck lid and each quarter panel. Solid center full wheel covers with 3 bar spinners, the wheels were 14"x5" and painted black on all SS cars.
The interior equipment included a grab bar on the passenger side and a trim plate or console when the 4 speed transmission was ordered.
The following options were MANDATORY before the SS option could be ordered from the factory. Heavy duty shock absorbers on the front & rear, heavy duty springs, front & rear, either a heavy duty powerglide transmission or a 4 speed transmission if you chose the 305 HP motor. All other motors required a 4 speed transmission. Also required were: power steering, tachometer, dash pad, power brakes, metallic brakes, 8.00x14 1" wide whitewalls, and one of the following motors: 305 hp, 340 hp or 350 hp 348 cubic inch or the 360 hp 409 motor. According to records, there were 453 of these cars factory built by Chevrolet. There were 142 409 cars built in 1961. To my knowledge, there are no records to verify how many of these motors were installed in the SS cars. It is my opinion that some 409's were installed in SS cars but I would guess that most were installed in the cheaper, lighter body cars because they were designed to be raced. The drag race guys mostly used the lighter bodies and the NASCAR boys used the Bel-Air bubble top bodies.
I hope this answers most of your questions. This information is available from Chevrolet and was originally sent to dealers in a memorandum dated Feb 1961. Since there were only 453 factory SS's originally built, and there were approx. 6000 Chevrolet dealers in the US, think about the difficulties that one of those dealers faced in getting one of these cars!! Contrary to popular belief, there was NO dealer installed SS option, however many dealers installed the emblems, grab bars etc so that they could sell cars. If you find a 61 Chevrolet Impala that was built before Feb 1961, doesn't have the above options and it has a motor smaller than a 305-348, you can bet that it isn't a factory built '61 Super Sport.

[bobs409]

One of our road test articles discusses some of this and can back up most of what Tommy said.

Tommy, you are the 1961 SS expert of our board! :D :cheers

[real61ss]

Bob,
I'm not an expert at anything, I've just put a lot of time into researching these cars. I've been fascinated with these cars since they came out in 1961. I bought my first car, a 61 Impala in the fall of 61. Needless to say, I made me a clone out of that one and spent the next 35 years looking for the rear thing. I found it in 1996, setting in a shed 16 miles from where I live!!! But that's another story.
Oh, by the way, an expert is: x is a has been, spert is a small stream of water!!!
:cheers

[Bungy]

Thanx Tommy, That's just what I was looking for.
Could expert also mean you are no longer a small stream of water? (an ex-spert) :p

[bubbletop61]

One of the problems when you try to put together a hi-horse 348 in a '61, is that the info you gather along the way is often 'colored' by what was used on the 409, and then the problem gets compounded because the vast majority of 409 "knowledge" through the grapevines, refers to 62 and later. Until Tommy's excellent post on CT, I was convinced that you could get any power train you wanted with the SS option in 61. Now I know that this was true of 62, but not of 61...see what I mean about 62 grapevine info. pervading 61 reality? It is wonderful that guys like Tommy and Verne have documented these cars so well and it is why 61's are such an interesting transitional year into the full size high performance era. But I do have a couple of specific questions to ask of these gents, as I may have more misinformation in my closets... :(
1) I have been told everywhere that I thought knowledgeable info was available (mainly NOS parts guys), that all of the high performance W cars used deep groove pulleys, and thus no power steering. Fact or fiction?, and;
2) I really don't have a clue whether a 350 horse 348 should have an idler pulley or not?
Appreciate the dedication to documenting all this guys, and the help! :bow
With Best Regards
BBTP61 :cheers

[bowtieollie]

What really concerns me is that everytime someone takes the time to document "what made a real '61 SS" - there is a very good chance we just gave a license to someone to build another bogus car.

Oh, I know if someone takes their time and they do their homework it can happen - but I just like to keep this info as confidential as possible, otherwise we end up with the same problem as '57 fuelie convertibles - 1500 built and 3000 exist today. :mad:

[fatride]

Tommy, I for one would love to hear the story of how you found the 61 SS. I know somewhat the feeling you must have had the first time you saw the car. I felt the same way when I found my 60 Impala Sport Coupe in a barn on a Pennsylvania back road.
;)

[real61ss]

Gar,
Verne can probably answer your questions better than I. I wish I could answer both of your questions with some information that I knew was correct. but I can't. You see, my SS doesn't have the high horse motor, it has the 305 hp motor.
This I can say, the high horse motors WERE available with power steering. These are the motors that were available with the factory Super Sport option and power steering was a mandatory option.
It is my opinion that these motors when equiped with power steering, came with a cast iron, 3 spoke, deep grove pulley. The generator also had a deep grove pulley. My motor, the 305 horse, has the deep pulley on the generator but the power steering pulley is the standard depth sheet metal pulley.
The 305 motor in 61 was a cross between standard and high performance. Basicly, it was a 250 hp motor that was allowed to breathe. The block and rotating assembly was the same as the 250 hp, the heads were 1147's, the intake was a little taller with a AFB carter, standard single point distributor and the exhaust manifolds were the 2 1/2" ones. I assume that this is why mine has the sheet metal power steering pulley.
To answer your other question, again this is my opinion. I think that the 340, 350 and 360 hp motors all used the same idler pulley if there was no power steering.
Chevrolet seemed to always install double belts on any performance motor that had solid lifters. This was because these higher revving motors stood a better chance of throwing the belts off and the second belt gave the motor a second chance to live. So, the second belt required an idler to adjust it.
I hope this helps, sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, I've been at the Auto Fair in Charlotte

[bubbletop61]

Thanks Tommy for getting back to me on this. I appreciate the info on the
PS, and the idler pulleys, and hope you had a good time in Charlotte. Hope to make it down there next year.

Tommy, as you know we have discussed in the past that Adam and I are building this car as an SS CLONE. IMHO, a car is not a bogus car unless the
guy building it is in the closet about it, or has the intention to try to pass the car off as an SS at show or sale. When you are a 21 year old owner, Impala SS has a sporting ring to it, that Impala simply does not. The SS appointments are very attractive in what is a fairly plain interior without them
(by todays standards, and by comparison to a 59 or 60 Impala).

We are trying to get all the correct parts into the car because it is important to us to be true to the model year. The car is a factory 348/4 Speed Impala Sport Coupe. It would be cheaper to build a 250 HP 348 Impala SS, than it is to build a 350 HP 348 straight Impala with all the goodies.Maybe we should revert back to building a straight kick axx Impala, goodness knows this would be alot easier than what we are doing...

I understand Ollie's concerns about the dissemination of the correct information if it falls into the wrong hands but there are those of us out here that have the integrity not to try to stage such a misrepresentation. I appreciate and respect the correct information, and I am sure there are many others in the same frame of mind.
Thanks again for your continued support Tommy,
Gar

[bobs409]

Tommy, I for one would love to hear the story of how you found the 61 SS. I know somewhat the feeling you must have had the first time you saw the car. I felt the same way when I found my 60 Impala Sport Coupe in a barn on a Pennsylvania back road.
;)

Ray, we need to hear your story too! I don't believe I've ever heard the details on your car. And since I live in Pa...what back road was that? :D :p

[real61ss]

Ray, we need to hear your story too! I don't believe I've ever heard the details on your car. And since I live in Pa...what back road was that? :D :p
Yeah, I'd like to hear that also. As for the 61SS story, I have some pictures that were taken of the original owner on his tractor pulling it out of the shed but this was before I had a digital camera so I need to get them scanned. I'll work on that.
:cheers

[fatride]

Well I didn't think I'd be telling my story! But I'll be glad to. The year was 1992, it was the middle of Febuary, a deep freeze around here! With nothing else to do on a Sunday morning I called my sister in Waterford Pa. and asked her and my Brother in law to breakfast. We picked Edinboro Pa. as middle ground since we live in Conneaut Ohio. After a long breakfast at a Perkins restaurant . Marcia and I decided to take a country drive in my 84 Chevy 4X4. We had just had a good snowfall that night and there was already 10" on the ground from before so we were looking at about 12" to 14" of snow on the ground. It was late in the morning and the roads were plowed including the dirt secondarys. The sun was shining bright that day and it was really beautiful. We left Perkins and went south out of Edinboro on 6N. Now, being in a 4X4 in the middle of Feb, after a good snowfall makes me fearless, so, we soon picked a snow covered dirt road in a hurry after leaving town. Now at this point we were meandering! After asking Marcia to keep her grapes peeled, like I always do for old iron. I would come to an intersection and ask Marcia, "left or right"? So it was random, the luck of the draw! After quite a few miles of this we turned north on williams Rd. in Edinboro. While driving slowly enjoying the country we passed by another of many old farms with the typical barns and out buildings that are built in whatever oreintation to the main house the owner desires, and not always at right angles to the road or the house. I was already past the particular out building that the old Chevy was backed into when Marcia says excitidly, hey there's an old T bird in that barn! Now I know that my wife knows her cars and I say to her, I'm not interested in a T bird. We continued on our way for a ways and I thought , what the hey! I'm interested in old cars period! So we turned around and started back toward the farm. Man can you imagine what I felt like when I saw the front end of that 60 poking out of that garage? I guess you could call it a garage and maybe it was built with this in mind sometime in the 20s or 30s. It was tucked in between a full on barn, a corn crib or two, and at least one other small out building between this and the house. Anyway, the outbuilding that the Impala was wasting away in was an unpainted but solid structure with a tin roof. lining the walls were wooden shelves with old oil cans and various tools that hadn't been used in some time. All I could see of the Chevy was the front end and I had no Idea if it was a 2 door or 4 door, a wagon or what! But man I was excited! I couldn't wait for permission from the owner to take a look and see what prize the garage held. Much to my amazement it was a two door hardtop. By this time I was almost p***ing my pants with excitment! There it sat with flat tires, filthy, with a thick layer of bird crap coating the Tasco turquoise paint. I was so excited that I was almost running toward the house reaching for my wallet to see if I had enough money for a down payment without even knowing if it were for sale! In my haste to get to the house with the money I dropped my wallet and had to pick it up and shake out the snow. I knock on the door and a man with a beard answers. I ask if the Chevy in the garage is for sale and he says, yeah, I'll sell it. I ask how much and he thinks for a while and says I'll take 4300.00 for it. I didn't know how much a 60 Impala hardtop was worth so I asked if I could come back later that day and he says yes. We went to the nearest town, Conneaut Lake, found a phone booth and called home to see if our son could look in the old car trader to see what it was worth. I coudn't get ahold of him so we went back to the farm and I asked if he would hold the car for me if I gave him 100.00. He said don't worry about it I won't sell it untill I hear from you.----------There is more to this story if you still want to hear more but it is getting late and I'm heading for bed. If you want I'll tell you the rest of the story tomorrow. This is kind of long winded but I have to tell it like it was! :rolleyes:

[60convert]

wow you get us all wandering how the story goes then we have to wait till tomarrow. might as well said, "TO BE CONTINUED" at the end
well you have to tell us how it went
Jesse

[bobs409]

Yeh, what the heck? I was just getting into it! You tell a good story Ray. I could actually feel the atmosphere and smell the crisp clean cold air! I even heard the bearded mans raspy voice! :D (it was raspy wasnt' it?)

[fatride]

I'll finish the story tonite if you all promise to be good! :D

[bobs409]

Ok. :rolleyes: :p

[dq409]

Cookies and milk ??? :D

[fatride]

Ok, and now for the conclusion! Well I went home that night and did as much research on 60 Impalas as a guy without a computor could do, that's right guys, no search engines! Gad, how did we do it then without computors? I got west coast price books, I got east coast price books, I looked in the car trader mags and Hemmings went to the library and looked through Cars and Parts mags. Armed with all this knowledge I felt I was ready to deal! The next weekend ,Sat. I picked up my best friend and we went and looked at the car as best we could in the Garage/barn where it was sitting. We took an air bottle with us with plans to jack up at least one side so we could take a peek underneath and see what damage 32 years had done to the floors. We arrived at the farm at around ten AM that bitter cold Feb. morning and I was full of anticapation. First thing we did was pop the hood and checked out the 235 six that was perched between the fender wells. All looked well and the engine was fairly clean. I asked the guy how it ran and he said it ran fine when he parked it last summer! I squeezed in next to the drivers side door ( the garage was only wide enough to open the door about 10") and looked inside with a flashlight, it was dark as hell in as the garage was windowless. I hit the dash with the light and read the odometer, 52000 mi was all the Impala had seen in 32 years! the interior was faded but no rips. Next was the check for rust. My friend brought a magnet wrapped in felt to push around the body to look for bondo. While he was busy doing that I took the flashlight and after pumping the tires up on the passenger side got as far as I could underneath the old Chevy. I couldn'd belive what I was seeing when I fashed the light under the car! Not a bit of rust anywhere! There was still factory paint under the Impala! I looked at some of the bolts and nuts holding the trailing arms on the rear end and my God, no rust. The floors were perfect! Now I can barely cotain my excitment. My friend went over every spot on the Chevy that you would expect rust, bottom quarters of front and rear fenders, rockers and the headlight eyebrows. That magnet stuck tight everywhere! All the stainless was great and the chrome bumpers looked almost new! We did all we could do at this time and the battery was dead and no one had thought to bring jumpers or tools plus we were all freezing our nuts off so with his word that he would hold the Impala for me we headed home. The following week the 60 Chevy was all I could think about. I had been looking for a restorable car for at least five years or more and all I could find were over priced rust buckets! It's amazing what some people will try and sell for big bucks if they think you have the old car fever! But not this Chevy "IT WAS A SURVIVOR" Well the guy wanted 4300.00 for the car and I was sure he would deal. In the fist post I recalled it was Feb. That was not right because I remember now that when my friend and I took took off for Edinboro that morning it was super bowl sunday! When we got to the farm he was waiting for us. He had bought a new battery and we brought some fresh gas. It was still cold as heck that day so we got right to it. We pumped up the tires on the drivers side and the tires that we pumped up last week had not gone down. I reached through the door and snapped the Chevy into neutral. We pulled it out of the barn into the bright sunlight for the fist time! I was not disappointed. Sitting on four inflated bias ply tires was a 1960 Chevrolet Impala Sport coupe, 235 six with a powerglide tranny tinted windows dog dish wheel covers (I rememberd the correct term Bob,hee,hee) Tasco turquise with a ermine white stripe, non push button AM radio, two speed wipers full carpet, and clock. I popped the hood and we took the oil bath air cleaner off the carb. The guy had installed the battery that morning before we got there. My friend poured some fresh gas into a squirt oil bottle, you know the kind with the thumb lever! While the farmer put fresh gas in the tank. The keys were in the ignition when I slipped under the steering wheel. I pushed the throttle to the full open positin and my friend squirted some gas into the carb. I turned the key while pumping the accelerator peddle like a man possesed! Cripes the six fired almost immediately! I kept pumping on the gas peddle like my life depended on it and the six kept running very rough and coughed for about 30 seconds untill it pulled fresh gas to the carb. It smoothed out after about two or three minutes of feathering the peddle untill I could bring it to a steady rpm. After another few minutes of high idle I eased off the peddle and the six fell into a smooth idle. Wow this thing sounds good, and no blue smoke! I got out and walked around the Chevy just looking (drooling) for so long that my friend said come on already! Make a deal. The seller says hey, let's not stand out her freezing, you can make up your mind inside. At this he suggested that we all go to a sports bar that he knew was having a Super Bowl party. "Party" Ok! With that said he got in his pickup and we followed him to a little block building in the middle of a corn field! No kidding it was just off the dirt road with corn feilds all around it. Not a house in sight! He met some of his farmer freinds there and started drinking and playing pool. My freind and I sat down at the bar and ordered a couple of drafts and two pork sanwiches that the bar was serving for the Super Bowl party. No at this point I'll tell you that the day before I had made up my mind that I would pay no more than 3500.00 for the Chevy. This in mind I went to the bank and had a cashiers check cut for 3000.00 and took out 500.00 in cash. I put the cash in my wallet and the check in my shirt pocket. Well we sat there and had at least six beers and two more pork sandwiches. All this time the farmer was pouring beer down his gut and shooting pool like a pro. Yeah, the guy was getting loaded! I figured this was my break. I got off my bar stool and kinda oozed over to the farmer, yeah I was loaded too! Anyway I says, " I'm ready to deal" With that I told him I cleaned out my bank account and had all the money that I could raise in my pocket. He says "how much ya got" With that I took out my wallet and put he check in his shirt pocket and went back to my stool. He was acting cool and didn't look at the check right away. He shot a couple more balls then pulled the check out of his pocket and looked at it. He walked over to me and said no deal!. I was expecting this and said this is all the money I have. He said that's not enough and walked back to the pool table, he kept the check tho and I knew I had him hooked. Now remember I have 500.00 in my shirt pocket! I waited for what seemed like an hour and took 300.00 out of my pocket went to the pool table and handed him the bills. He counted the money and said your getting closer. I said jeeze your cleaning me out. I told him I would see if my bud had any cash. I walked over to the bar and made like I was having a heated discussion with my friend. I walked back to the pool table and handed him the remaining 200.00 and said that's it, that's all we have. He thought for about 30 seconds and said "Deal" Wow! I have a 60 Impala for 3500.00 dollars, just what I agreed with myself that I would pay, cool! Now the rest of the story is transferring the title and all that crap. I drove the Chevy home that Feb Day. And since we were already trashed we stopped at a few more bars on the way home to boot. I christened the front seat of the Impala with a Miller Lite and my buddy spilled a bottle on the front seat of my 4X4. Drove it home felling real good! Heater was blowing warm air and everything worked in the car. I even tuned in an oldie station on the AM radio. Man it don't get no better than that. :beerbang :beerbang :D

[JimKwiatkowski]

fatride,thats one cool car story THANKS

[bobs409]

Very neat story. :cheers That was alot to type!

Im wondering how this "farmer" had $4,300 in his mind to start with though? Sounds like he may have checked the value before you asked about the car.

BTW, it's dog dish "hub" caps, not wheel covers. :D


I have a feeling that if you didn't find this car, it would still be sitting there! ;)

[Tom Kochtanek]

Fatride:

Great story! I wish I had one that compared to that.

As close as I can get, but quite short, and interesting in its lesson:

I was looking at a 1948 Chevy 2 door Aerosedan. Original owner. He wanted $1800 dollars. Simple ad in the local paper. I went over to look at the auto, then returned home to study the value of the car. The next day I went back with $900 in hundred dollar bills. Thought I was real cool.

Here's this older guy with a pretty nice original car, but no local market that would pay that price. I figure I had a great opportunity.

So I go back on day two with the cash, meet the fellow outside his garage and tell him I am very interested and would like to make an offer. He says OK. So I proceed to put the $100 bills on the hood of the car until all nine were there. I had another $100 in my pocket just in case. I'll never forget his words: "You best pick those bills up before the wind takes them" was his reply. So much for my negotiation skills and flash of cash :) I eventually did purchase the car for $1200, drove it for about 3-4 years and sold it via Hemmings for a bit more.

I always wanted to be in a situation where I could use those lines! The guy was as solid as you can get, and unflappable to boot!

Glad you got your prize! May we all see better deals in our futures :)

Cheers,
TomK

[fatride]

[QUOTE=bobs409]
BTW, it's dog dish "hub" caps, not wheel covers. :D

Damn! I thought I had you there! :confused:

[fatride]

I will add that the Impala was bought in Boston Mass by a retired couple and drove to Fla. in the same month. Grampa passed away and Granny drove the car untill she cleaned the stainless off the passenger side driving into the garage. She decided to give up driving right then and there! She called her son that lived in Minneapolis Minnesota to come and get the Impala. The Farmer, Phillip D. was in the sevice in Germany with the son. When Phillip and the son left the service Phillip stopped in Minneapolis with his friend and spotted the car. The car sat for years untouched. Phillip visited his friend one summer years later and the car was still in the same spot as when they left the service. Well, Phil ended up driving the 60 Impala from Minneapolis all the way to Edinboro Pa. Phil drove the car in a few parades in the Edinboro area and to and from the store a few times. As thing go Phil and his wife split about the same time I showed up at his farm house. Phil was taking care of the kids and needed some extra money at the time. His bad luck was my good! This was the history as told by Phil.
:deal

[bobs409]

That makes me feel better about that getting drunk part you mentioned. I somehow got a vision of this farmer driving the '60 back and forth to that bar all the time in a drunken condition. :eek: Glad to hear, he must have left it at home.

Come to think of it...shame on you for driving that beauty while under the influence! :p

[droptop62]

That car was right here in my backyard??????
I can't believe it slipped away, I must have been busy that day :p
Great story!!!

[bowtieollie]

Hi Gar,

See - here's goes another clone - ALTHOUGH you are representing the car properly the ISSUE arrives years later when the car has changed hands and is THEN misrepresented.

Glad you plan on being forthright with the history - but I'll bet you a beer that when you sell her - the new owner lies through his teeth. :deal

[fatride]

[QUOTE=bowtieollie]Hi Gar,

See - here's goes another clone - ALTHOUGH you are representing the car properly the ISSUE arrives years later when the car has changed hands and is THEN misrepresented.

No clone here, Impala keeps the six trim front and rear, vin is six.
;)

[Fran Preve]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, interesting story, but to get back on the topic of 1961 SS's.
According to what's written here the SS was only available with a 305, 340, 350 348 or a 360 hp 409. using engine plant numbers here are the MAXIMUM number of cars that COULD have been built, but using a "correction" factor that has been PROVEN for Mark IV engines the actual number of CARS built would have been 3 to 7% LESS. In any event you can't have more cars than engines.

1) 305 hp/348 - 760 conventional, suffix code FL
1,062 HDPG, suffix code GD

2) 340 hp/348 - 555 conventional, suffix code FJ

3) 350 hp/348 - 4,524 conventional, suffix code FH

4) 360 hp/406 - 265 conventional, suffix QA (built with 2 assembly numbers, 150 for one and 115 for the other).

With only 452 assembly line built, how did they break down?. First, if you wanted an automatic it would have had to be a 305 hp, But automatics weren't considered "performance" back then, and stick shift cars were VERY popular then (*** opposed to today, or even beginning in the late 60's. My guess is few were automatics. 340 hp?, why not go right to the 350 hp, obviously most people did. MY guess?, few were built. 350 hp?, this was by far the most popular high performance option, MY guess is most were 350 hp. The 409?, here's where it becomes MY opinion, many of the 409's went into SS's. The 409 was new and Chevy wanted to "showcase" it, what better than an SS?. Next would be an Impala, and the magazine test cars were Impala's. Biscayne's and BelAIr's?, few, very few.

How would they get them on the race track?. Most of the one's I've seen in print rcaing back then were "conversions". And note TWO engine assemblies were used, both with the same QA suffix. One, the 150 group in MY opinion went to assembly plants. The other, the 115 group, went to dealers for making "conversions". Remember, back then all that was required was the suffix code be right, nothing wrong with conversions. Besides which, when you did a conversion you had a very saleable 350 hp/348 to sell!.

End it all: My guess is few of the SS's were 305's, most were 350 hp, and more than suspected 409's. Also, I would suspect many of those 350 hp cars ended up with blown motors and had small blocks put in. Just one man's opinion, and open to suggestions.

[real61ss]

Fran
You bring up some very good points, provokes lots of thoughts...... and I agree with every thing except the number of 409's that may have been installed in SS's. I don't know about that. And because Chevrolet didn't keep these records, it's just opinions but still fun to talk about.
Here's my theory, according to everything I've read, Chevrolet built 142 of the 409 motors in 1961. I agree that Chevrolet wanted to show case both the new 409 and the new Super Sport and what better way than to put the two together for the magazine writers, road testers etc., but this should have only required a half dozen or so cars. Most of the magazine articles that I recall concerning the new 409, actually showed the motor in an Impala. The only magazine article that I have showing a road test of the 409 is the 1961, April issue of Hot Rod and shows the Impala. OK, even if you doubled my estimate of 1/2 dozen, you still come up with a small number of the 453 factory built SS's and a fairly small number of the 142 409's.
But, guys with Chevrolet race cars were starving for power, the Super Duty Pontiac's and 375 hp Fords were giving the Chevy guys a fit. I didn't keep up too much with drag racing but I did follow Nascar racing.
Ned Jarrett, Rex White, Emanuel Zervakis, L.D. Austin, Jim Reed, Joe Lee Johnson, Tommy Irvin and Paul Lewis all raced Chevrolets in the NASCAR Grand National Division in 1961. I'm sure all of these guys got their hands the new motor. That's why I think that most of them went in race cars and I would bet that very few if any SS's were made into race cars. The NASCAR guys raced the bubbletop Bel-Airs. Then you have the drag race guys, I don't know how many of these guys it was, but I'm sure that all of the top names got the new 409's and they didn't use the SS's, at least all of the pictures that I see are either Impala's or the cheap 2 dr sedan bodies.
But this raises another question which you might could answer, did they make a total of 142 409 motors or did the factory build a total of 142 cars with 409's? I have always been of the opinion (from what I've read) that only 142 motors were built. IF this is true, did all 142 motors go in cars at the factory or did dealers get some of these motors for service motors? I'm betting that certain dealers, especially those who sponsered race cars were able to get these motors. If there were only a 142 motors built and the dealers were able to get just the motor, then this would cut way down on the number of cars that actually left the factory with the 409 motor.
Anyway, It's late, gotta go to bed :cheers

[Fran Preve]

Real: sorry this is late but my computer got hijacked. Re-read what I said, they built 265 409 engines, all with the QA suffix. Two groups, 115 and 150. My guess is the 115 number were over the counter engines for conversions, the rest went into cars. How many were Biscaynes/BelAirs?. Again I'll say not very many, this was a 'halo" car and Chevy would have wanted most to be "show off" cars. Sure, some were sedans, but they weren't going to sell a limited number of engines to just any po-dunk just so he could race it, there were too few. Magazine cars. No they didn't need many, and all I've seen were Impala's, but SOME were either "press cars", or cars for "VIP's". They had a limited number of 409 engines to put into cars, and a new Super Sport package, be sure they put some together!.

Why the limited number?. Because 1962 was Chevy's 50th Anniversery year, and they were introducing all new motors, both six and V-8. New was to be the 327 which took the place of the 348, and the 409 which put Chevy on the same level as Ford/Pontiac/Chrysler. But Ford introduced the 390 at the beginning of the 1961 model year and Chevy couldn't wait so the built a few 409's just to get some press, and have some cars on the track. This is the same as the Z-16 Chevelle in 1965. They didn't have a SS396 ready until 1966 so the "whet the appitite" by building 200 Z-16's and put them where they'd be seen the most.

[real61ss]

Fran,
Thanks for the response. I agree with most everything you stated, we just have different ideas about how many 409 motors went in the factory built Super Sports. No question that some were built, just how many? It's a shame Chevrolet didn't keep records like Pontiac did so we could have a documentation service like PHS.
I had always heard that all of the 61 409 motors had a Q code, looking at Colvins book, he says the early 61 motors were Q and the late motors were QA codes. Of course, he may be wrong on this. Do you have something that states that all 61 409 motors were stamped QA? Can't remember where I got the idea that they were all Q coded.
So far as your statement about the 61 SS's and the 65 Z-16 being built to whet peoples appetite, I agree 100%

:cheers

[Fran Preve]

Tommy: I'm sure your right and only a few SS 409's were built. All plant records show QA. Makes sense it was a start of a series and QB was on the books, but none were built.

[bowtieollie]

4) 360 hp/406 - 265 conventional, suffix QA (built with 2 assembly numbers, 150 for one and 115 for the other).


HI Fran,

Sorry, I don't agree.

Its my understanding that ALL the '61 409 engines were a Q suffix.

In regards to the total producition, I understand you "stated" this is your opinion - but I think its a little too far out there..... 348/350 was the most popular? Not based on the many SS cars that I have seen that are not clones.

[Fran Preve]

Ollie: Don't argue with me, I worked at, and have the production numbers for ALL big block Chevy engines ever built, every one, by suffix code, as "Built and Shipped' for every model year from 1958 thru 1972 (except fo 1962 where I only have total number). Oh, and I've been recognized as an expert on big block production since 1988, and had a column in All Chevy magazine from 1990 to 1991. The number of 409 cars built is a Chevrolet number, and unquestioned. The number of engines built is separate and also a Chevrolet number. As far as the number of 350hp/348's is concerned that's the number of engines Tonawanda built during the 1961 model year, and compared to the 8909 409's cars built in 1962 very believable. My numbers of engines built vs cars built has proven to be accurate 95% +/- 2% where both are known. The engine identification sheets for 1961 show the 409 engine asembly number crossing over to suffix code QA, and as stated QB was on the books as of June 1961 but none were built in 1961, the parts were available over the counter.

[Dan Hunt]

bowtieolie
How could you disagree with the smartest SOB on the net this f----- knows every thing about everything.If you don't believe me just ask him

[Fran Preve]

Know more than you do danny, way more.

[Dan Hunt]

So does Ollie,but he doesn't have to tell me how smart he is or how stupid me and the rest of the world are.

[bowtieollie]

Fran,

I am not going to argue with you on your experience with GM.

I am sure it was fun working at Tonawanda - wish those guys would allow tours of a plant that produced some fine engines in its day.

Now I will argue with your perception of "what was built" - especially since you are using a very statistical approach to it - not raw data. Personally I don't care about Mk IV engines - last I checked this site doesn't want to review that info anyhow - otherwise I am sure it wouldn't be referred to as 348-409.

I can count on one hand how many REAL '61 SS 348/350 cars I have ever seen. Based on your opinion I need some more hands. I have seen more 305 versions of the same model year. So, all the 305's survived and the 350's didn't? :cry

Until I see historical raw data on reliable stationary - its open season on "how many were built and bolted under the hood of a '61. You are not the only guy in the world that has access to information. I for one, know someone that has a plethora of official GM documentation AND he doesn't hang out on this site for personal reasons. His hard data doesn't support your opinion. :bow

We are all entitled to our opinions - but I prefer not to have yours rammed down my throat - so get off the high chair.

[Tom Kochtanek]

After politely complimenting and acknowledging experiences within GM, Ollie states: "Now I will argue with your perception of "what was built" - especially since you are using a very statistical approach to it - not raw data."

Phil Reed can supply you with one piece of "raw data", and Donnie Shaffer has another. I've seen 1961 409 blocks owned by these guys that have the "Q" suffix, not a "QA". Unfortunately both of these blocks are not in vehicles, so I guess one could claim they weren't from 1961. And I guess you could claim they were "restamped". But I suspect these guys know what they have and how to verify that, as they are "hands on" collectors and local/national experts. Where do these "Q blocks" fit in with the documention that is available?

Geez, let's not start another distributed asynchronous feud. Ollie was very polite in stating his opinion. Let's keep it at that level, OK? That is what these discussions are all about, sharing our common expertise, and Bob is kind enough to support us with his time and energy in facilitating that.

This Discussion Board is about exchanging information, both "statistical and documented" and "in the field". Sometimes these two data points may differ, and that's how stories and myths take seed. I have read enough "official" computer manuals to know from experience that what is stated might not always be the case. Could be the same thing here, but I don't want to get in an argument about it. I also don't care who thinks they know more than others. That's not the point of these conversations, which is about sharing our experiences and expertise. I just want to learn more and for us to be civil and cordial in exchanging ideas and opinions ....

I'm getting off my high horse for now. That's not what I do best. But someday I wish to own a documented 1961 SS, and this information is of interest to me (and others as well). I hope this doesn't drive me back to my quest for a factory correct 1963 Z06 big tanker :). I grown quite fond of X frame cars in recent years and rather like the 348-409 lineage...

regards,
TomK

[MK IISS]

Tom: If the block is casting #3795623 then to my knowledge it couldn't be argued it wasn't a '61 block because that casting # was unique to '61.

Richard

[bowtieollie]

...The engine identification sheets for 1961 show the 409 engine asembly number crossing over to suffix code QA...


Fran, if you have this information - I would like to see it.

At what point does the QA come online? :cheers

[Phil Reed]

All I know is what I have been able to see. In 20 plus years of buying and selling 348 & 409 parts, I have been fortunate to have owned 4 real #3795623 blocks or shortblock assemblies. In fact, I have one here in the shop at this time. All 4 blocks were stamped with only the "Q" engine code. The one here now is a B2361 casting date and T0413Q assembly date.

Now, do I believe that Fran has records showing QA and QB? Absolutely. But only from the perspective that Chevy engineers started 2 to 4 years prior, we've been thru that before here on a different thread. It might have been on paper in 1961 because they were going to be coming out with the 2 new horsepower ratings in 1962. That would be the obivious progression....Q in 1961 because they only had the one engine to offer. 62 had two new engines that necessaited the QA and QB designations. Then 63 came along, and all the new "Q" codes for them. But I haven't seen any "legit" untouched 1961 409 engines or cars that had a 2 digit engine code.

The "real" debate on 61 blocks is: how many digits in the casting number were "stamped" into the block instead of being the raised numbers that we are accustomed to???? I have seen all seven stamped and would consider them a forgery. Most I've seen had the "7" stamped into the block. The second digit was ground off and the 7 stamped in it's place. Supposedly because the guy who was casting them put the wrong number in the mold. I've seen many like that. NOW.....the block I have here now IS THE ONLY #3795623 BLOCK I HAVE EVER SEEN WHERE ALL THE NUMBERS ARE RAISED!!!! Go figure!!!

That's all I know about this!! The above mentioned information and 50 cents will still get you a cup of coffee in most midwestern restaurants!!!! :D :D :D

[Fran Preve]

Phil: You da MAN!. My records show a QA but there's NOTHING like having a REAL expert come in with what he's actually SEEN. Your right, I'm wrong and I stand corrected. Chevy usually did this, a single letter on the suffix and then as they added models adding more suffix codes. So the Q is a 409 from 1961, when there was only one version and changing to QA and QB when TWO versions came out in 1962, and then more and more as more versions were built, the 340's, transistor ignition etc.

As for the casting numbers I won't comment as I haven't a clue on what, why or how they did it back in the 50's and 60's. The 1961 was a very low production engine and in the limited quanties built, including pre-production builds, anything is possible. Any one who worked in the foundry back then at LEAST 60 plus years old, and most in their 70's or '80's. The foundry closed in 1984. Finding out accurate facts now is a slim possibility at best. But someone like Phil Reed would be the best source of what has been SEEN, and this site would be an excellant place to gather all this information in one place, especially now that digital cameras make recording this easily possible. This is what the National Corvette Restorers Society did, took all the information they could find on a subject, gather it in one place and sort it out.

[Fran Preve]

The 1961 SS was a "halo" car, Chevrolet wanted as wide publicity as it could get considering the number of ASSEMBLY LINE cars built. There were three obvious choices for engine, the 305 which was the only one built with an automatic, and the 350hp (why buy a 340 when for a couple of dollars more you could get tri power?). If you wanted an automatic you had one choice, the 305hp, and MANY people either couldn't drive a stick or didn't care too. Chevy or a Chevy dealer could put ANYONE into an automatic equipped to show it off and for test drives, only someone who could drive a stick could drive a 4 speed. By the way, go to the part of the board with road tests, look up the Motor Trend road test of the 1961 Impala SS with a 409, how "drivable" do you think the big horse motors were?.

With over 6000 Chevy dealers and less tha 500 assembly line cars who do you think got them?. Podunk dealers or big city?. Why aren't there more 350hp cars?. I've just explained that, plus THEY HAD THE SNOT BEAT OUT OF THEM!.

Ollie: I don't RAM anything down ANYONES throat, but when someone says something I know to be incorrect I'll shoot my mouth off, take it for what it's worth. As far as your comment "you know someone...........", well tell him to spread his information around, clue us in, tell us his history, where he got his information. Everything I'VE said is documented, and I EXPLAIN why I feel as I do, why things were as they were. You say "I know someone..........". But "he doesn't want to..............." . Tell him I'll match him document for document, any time.

And Ollie: i haven't spoken of the MKIV except where it pertains directly to the W.

Tom: where actual numbers are NOT available then you can make and educated guess from statistical numbers. But that's all it will be, is a guess. Where I do that I explain where I come up with it. Where people disagree most of the time they don't explain why. See bowtieollies question as to why he's seen more 305 hp's than 350 hp, and my answer.

[Fran Preve]

Ollie: just read your resume, you want to see what I got?. Come to Super Chevy Maple Grove, and bring your friend. And have HIM bring some, we'll compare notes.

[Bungy]

Phil, Now you can say you've seen two 61 blocks with all raised casting numbers. You'll have to scroll down to Nut's picture.
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1883&page=3&pp=15
:cheers

[bowtieollie]

Ollie: I don't RAM anything down ANYONES throat, but when someone says something I know to be incorrect I'll shoot my mouth off, take it for what it's worth. As far as your comment "you know someone...........", well tell him to spread his information around, clue us in, tell us his history, where he got his information. Everything I'VE said is documented, and I EXPLAIN why I feel as I do, why things were as they were. You say "I know someone..........". But "he doesn't want to..............." . Tell him I'll match him document for document, any time.

.

Ya know Fran - you really give me a good laugh!

You are so full of yourself - I find it entertaining. First you tell me how "out of line" I am after I bring a large discrepancy to your attention - then you admit....

"...Your right, I'm wrong and I stand corrected..." :stooges

in a reply to Phil Reed's excellent, in my hands info.

I don't brag and I certainly don't use my opinion as a basis of fact. Amazing how the tune is changed from "I got this" to "all those guys are gone or retired"....

No need for a reply - I am finished with this thread.

[Fran Preve]

Don't read this, your profile makes it sound like your a really knowledgeable guy, but your comments aren't backed up by where you get your facts from, just the typical " I heard". If you have a problem with what I say, ask me where I get my information from, if you want to correct me state your correction, then tell me where YOU get YOUR facts from. By the way, if Phil Reed corrects me I can respect his knowledge, if you disagree...........well profiles don't mean much to me. I don't need to be torn down by someone who can't back up his knowledge, or where he gets his info from. Like I said, I'll be at the Grove in July, and I'll bring my records there. Bring yourself and your "hidden' friends, and yours and/or their records, we'll compare notes. I'll post this challenge in July for anyone in the PA area who wants accurate information, or just go at it.

[bowtieollie]

Sorry Fran,

I don't frequent Super Chevy events.

In my opinion its a marketing gimmick and they charge way too much for the results offered.

I don't need to qualify who I am and what I know. I just state the facts - and if I don't know - I can admit that too. No doubt that trait comes from my engineering background. :D

[MK IISS]

Ollie:

Isn't it true that a large number of the '61 SS cars built were ordered by dealers as a marketing tool? That is they were displayed in showrooms to bring customers into the dearlerships. I find it hard to believe that many dealers would have ordered them with solid lifter engines. Most of the 340-350 horse 348s and the first 409s I know of were special ordered by customers and not for dealer inventory.

I also believe that most of the customers who ordered the maximum horsepower engines were not padded dash, power steering, power brakes "kind of guys."

In my opinion it is a strong possibility that a large percentage of the '61 SS cars built were probably 305 horse 348s.

As far as I'm concerned, Ollie, you will never have to prove any of your "credentials", information or knowledge to me.

Richard

[bowtieollie]

HI Richard,

Car dealers are a funny breed. Some could care less about performance cars - and others like to specialize in them.

No doubt a market driven issue, factored by the dealer's commitment to sell, sell, sell.

During this time frame, we can all remember the cliche "race on Sunday, sell on Monday". It did happen - and that's why the mfg's backed racing either openly or discretely as with the 409 cars.

The 409 was intro'd prior to the SS intro. So you can have a 409 in a non SS car.
I believe most of the drag cars were original 348 cars - and the dealer "sold them" the engine over the parts counter - unless GM provided to the well known names.

The '61 SS was one expensive Chevy - and no doubt that is what most likely caused the small sales numbers at first. Anyone buying a '61 SS was a serious Chevrolet enthusiast or really wanted the Corvette - but needed four seats.

One only has to look at the SS option list for the '62 to see that Chevrolet mgt was disappointed with the results of the '61 package. Remember the old GM marketing tool? Sell them a Chevy first, then as your became more successful you would move up to a Pontiac, then Olds, and of course we remember the Buick being referred to as the Doctor's car - and ultimately Caddy.

(geez, wonder if GM could learn today from their old marketing plan considering no one today in marketing is a "car guy" - they all came from various backgrounds - much to the demise of GM car sales)

Fran mentions the fact that if you "didn't want to shift" you were stuck with the 305hp version. I can't recall what the mix of stick to auto trans were in those days - but it must have been worthwhile - since even Oldsmobile offered a stick shift in their full size cars. Then factor in geography - most sticks are sold in the Mid west. (today, sticks account for less than 5% of the total sales of a model)

I agree with you that most guys ordering max HP engines could care less about wheelcovers and padded dashes - but the '61 SS required these to get the SS option.

I also agree with you that the majority of the SS' built in '61 were not of the high hp version - the larger percentage would have been the 305. What I am not certain of is "why"? Was it production driven - only so many engines to bolt under the hood? Was it buyer concern for a "new engine" - how reliable will it be? (remember when the '55 265 was intro'd? Quite a few buyers were afraid of it and its unproven reliability history.)

I enjoy this board due to its dedication of the 348-409 engines - that's why I frequently stop by. Chevytalk is also my favorite. I try to lend a hand when I can - but I really don't care for namecalling or trying to prove who has the most horsepower. That's not what this site is about - we all help each other.

LOL - can you imagine if this was a local club and we all got to hang out together a few times a month?? Now that would be really interesting! :cheers

[Fran Preve]

Ollie: I believe you just restated what I already said, thanks for repeating me. I don't go to Super Chevy to see the pretty cars, evidently from the size and popularity it's a pretty good marketing tool!. And a place for REAL car guys to buy parts, great manufacturing midway and swap meet by the way. But then your an engineer. I go to Super Chevy to race, my "thing", but then you wouldn't know anything about that either. Like your "buddy' who has information but doesn't want to share it with others. If you weren't a small potato at NCOA you could ask the Team Leader for 1970-72 LT-1's who I am, he might know, Terry McManmon.

As far as sticks being popular, back in the early 60's sticks were still popular, the number of 3 speeds or speeds with OD sold tell the story, after the 3 speed automatic came out in the full size car 3 speeds became less popular, morre and more less popular, but that's more because buyers tastes changed. But as I said, and MKII said, the SS was expensive and sold to people willing to spend a premium, and they prefered automatics. But then I've already said all that.

Your comments about Super Chevy said a lot, I bracket race. Oh, as your a moderator over at Chevy talk maybe I should stop by just to kep you honest.

[bowtieollie]

Fran,

You continue to prove, not only to me, but to others on this site that your ego is out of control.

Go surround yourself with your opinions. I don't name drop as I respect my friends, coworkers, and associates in the business. :p

I stated I was done with this - but you continue to tease the lion.

Let me restate this.... I DON"T NEED TO PROVE WHO I AM AND WHAT I KNOW! :D

All future posts will be ignored by me - so rant and rave, toot your horn, pound your chest..... Oh, and thank you for the entertainment factor - that's the only thing these messages have done for others.

If you visit Chevytalk - be prepared. If anything starts that I deem unacceptable your posts will be censored.

[MK IISS]

Fran:

What you said: "the SS was expensive and sold to people willing to spend a premium, and they preferred automatics."

I can't agree with the automatic transmission part. Although a powerglide was available with the base SS engine to my knowledge I don't think anyone has ever seen a powerglide '61 SS, I don't believe any were built. I think it is also reasonable to assume powergliide SSs would have had the highest survival rate because it is more unlikely they would have been raced.

Richard

[MK IISS]

I just found an interesting '61 performance comparison between a 348/350 and a 409/360. Almost identical showroom stock white Impalas, (the 409 had the SS pkg.) both cars with 4.56 gears.

409

0-30 3.2
0-45 4.8
0-60 7.0
1/4 mile 14.02 @98.14

348

0-30 3.0
0-45 5.2
0-60 8.0
1/4 mile 15.8 @91

Richard

[bowtieollie]

Hi Richard,

Now there are some interesting numbers! :D


Looks like the 409 has a better top end - so much for the cfm differences between the 3x2 and single AFB.

After seeing that - I can't wait to go out and find a date correct '61 09 engine and sell my 348/350.....

Thanks for posting that Richard.

[MK IISS]

the road tests are reprints in a Brooklands Books IMPALA & SS MUSCLE PORTFOLIO ISBN # 1 85520 3545

There are many other interesting tests including the unheard of 230 horsepower 4bbl 327 low compression export & police engine.

In 1961 my Uncle sold a new 409 engine in the crate to a friend of mine who had a '59 Impala 348/335 car which he had purchased new. I drove the car once and rode in it several times. It was very fast. My friend told me he had tried the 3X2bbls from the 348 on the 409 but it seemed to have more power with the big AFB. Maybe chevy knew what it was doing when they never offered the 3X2s on the 409.

On the other hand I drove some 348/280 cars and they seemed faster then the 348/250s especially with the automatics when you had no passing gear after about 55MPH. The turboglide 348/280 would fool you. Ther was no abrupt kickdown but the kept on "pulling."

By the way the valve covers on the three new '61 409s I saw were a light argent/silver color. They didn't have any stinkin' greenish color to them. Maybe they turned color with age and heat and maybe the 62's had the greenish cast to them when they were new ( I just don't remember on the '62s ) but the '61s I saw were light silver. The '61s also didn't have any decals on the covers either.

[bowtieollie]

Interesting history Richard.

The silver/green silver argument always comes up at points shows. Sorta like the painted scripts on 55 V8s. Restoration guides were written and the myth is perpetuated.

I have found the same observation on several 348 250/280 cars. Especially with the Turboglide. Some swear they were slow - but several that I have driven have been rather impressive - say 1980 Z28 impressive - not bad for an 'ol girl.

I really think those that "seemed to be" poor performers most likely had poor throttle valve linkage adjustments - and the stator angle was off.

When I bought my 348/350 it was converted to mechanical linkage. Ran like a scalded cat - but fairly miserable when cold - since the linkage was screwed up.
I converted it back to original (darn points again) and the car turned into a pussy cat. Well, at least I won't do any driveline damage. LOL

[real61ss]

Interesting history Richard.


When I bought my 348/350 it was converted to mechanical linkage. Ran like a scalded cat - but fairly miserable when cold - since the linkage was screwed up.
I converted it back to original (darn points again) and the car turned into a pussy cat. Well, at least I won't do any driveline damage. LOL

Ollie,
Do your end carbs cut in using the vacuum?, if they do, there shouldn't be any difference in the power. They are either closed or wide open using the factory linkage. I've never been able to get mine to cut in, I guess the return springs on the carbs are too strong, vacuum shouldn't be problem on mine, it's a 280 hp.
:cheers

[Fran Preve]

Judging from tests I've read and posts here as well as results from dragstrips in 1961 I find it hard to believe there was a nearly TWO SECOND difference between a 350/348 and a 409, all things being equal. Given they were just about identical except for 3x2's and 61 cubic inches I'd say 14.5 vs 14.0 seems more like it.

They didn't put tri power on the 409 because it was a very limited production engine in 1961 and 2x4's were on the books for 1962. Pontiac had 2x4's in 1962, Mopar was already running 2x4's, Ford waited until 1963 1/2 but had a better 3x2 set up to begin with. 3x2's have panache, but you get a mixture distribution problem after 6000 rpm (6 barrels/8 cylinders).

Silver valve covers in 1961 but it's been pretty much put to bed that the 62's had a greenish tinge, and more gloss. Chevy didn't start putting decals on their engines until 1962.

Ollie: you said it all when you said you went back to vacuum for "show", I'd rather put my car on the line in a race than join a "who's got the cleanest car" contest. And YOU seem to be the one "showing off' your alleged knowledge. By the way, go back to the beginning of these posts, waasn't it YOU who said you had a buddy with vast knowledge but didn't want to share it?. Why not?. I pass on my knowledge, given my sources, provide an explaination, so far all you've done is critizise me.

You'd actually throw me off Chevytalk?. And whose playing "god" now?.

[MK IISS]

Fran:

I too was disappointed in the times of the '61 348/350 Impala. Maybe the testers didn't know how to drive. The article was in MOTOR LIFE. Hard to find reprints of any of these tests.

Ford ran 2X4bbls on some of their '62 406 F/X engines along with fiberglass body panels instead of aluminum like Chevrolet.

[59fins]

we sound like a couple kids on the play ground, talking about who's dad is bigger and stronger, arent we better than that, for God sake's grow up! Or will I get told that my dad is fat and ugly :eek:

[Bungy]

Maybe, Post a picture of your dad and we'll let you know. :D

[dq409]

Maybe, Post a picture of your dad and we'll let you know. :D

Heeee HEEEE Some humor is good now and then !!

But Fins has a point !!

But maybe we should post pictures of our dads !!!!

[Fran Preve]

Could option LPO 1108 police handling package consisting of heavier duty springs, shocks and 8:00 x 14 4 ply nylon tires been part of or required in the SS package?. (LPO is Limited production Option).

[MK IISS]

The SS mandatory RPO heavy duty suspension may have used the same parts as the LPO police option but I don't think there is anyway to determine it now unless someone has a '61 parts book. There was a '61 Biscayne 348/305 unmarked police car in my area which I drove around the block once after doing some service work on it. I can remember the car well because it was the only '61 Chevy police car in our area. The car had a "reputation" amoung us hotdogs: DON'T MESS WITH IT. This '61 had very stiff springs so my guess it was not the SS suspension. It also had 15" wheels/tires.

[real61ss]

Richard,
The shocks that were required on the SS may be the same as those used in the police package as mentioned by Fran, I doubt if the springs were. The SS required RPO 200 (shocks), RPO 253 (springs), and RPO 691 (tires). These may be the same springs and shocks that were used in the LPO 1108 package. I don't know. The wheels & tires would have been different for sure, the SS had 8:00x14, 1" wide whitewalls, the police cars had 15" blackwalls. Or the Virginia Police cars had 15' wheels, don't know about areas.

[MK IISS]

Tommy:

Thank you for your reply. I have never driven or ridden in a '61 SS, sorry to say. However by 1961 I had driven several new Chevrolets with the optional heavy duty suspension, most of the young guys in my area ordered them that way. As you know the h.d. suspension didn't hurt the ride that much but it sure got rid of the floating feeling my dad's Impala had. This '61 Police Biscayne was very "truck like" augmented by the lack of body insulation. It was the only 348/305 engine I ever worked on. Great car.

[real61ss]

Richard,
I've never drive one far either, just from the trailer to the show field!!!!! But, it doesn't ride hard at all, my Impala 348-280 has the regular supension, the biggest difference that I see is, the SS sets about 1" higher. One of the big differences in the Impala and the Biscayne ride is the amount of cushioning in the seats. I have a question for you, in Va. they had about 90% Mopar police cars in 61, a few Fords and a very few Chevrolets. I remember one 61 Chevrolet police car in our area. It was a black Biscayne 2 dr sedan, 305 hp, 3 speed with 15" blackwall tires. I sure thought it had solid lifters, I still remember the sound of that car. I think the 1960 305's had solid lifters, do you suppose that police car had a late 60 motor? Do you remember if the 305 you worked on had solids?
Just wondering.......Tommy

[MK IISS]

Tommy:

This is very strange. Your description of the '61 Biscayne is identical to the one I was talking about. The one I worked on was unmarked with only a spotlight to distinguish it from a normal consumer car. It had hyd. lifters. I know for sure because I did a couple tune ups on it. It also had an unpainted alum. intake, a big AFB and the big pipes. It was the only Chev. police car in the area. It was not a state or county car, just a small nearby community police car.

I think the '60 305 was an entirely different engine, only came with the powerglide and it had solid lifters and 11.0 pistons. If you wanted a man. trans you got the 320 horse.

I even did oil changes on the NY State Police cars which were Plymouths. My uncle said it was just good business. There was a state sub-station in our town but no Plymouth dealer and many of the police officers drove Chevrolets as their personal cars. The '60 Plymouths had Desoto Adventurer engines and were very fast. A lot faster then the Biscayne.

[real61ss]

Richard,
I learn something everyday from this forum. It never occured to me before that only the powerglide was available with the 60 305 motor. I've never done much research on anything other than the 61's. I checked Colvin's book and according to him, you are right and it says "with high lift cam". The 61 305 had the same cam as the 250 motor. Really, the only difference in the 1961 250 and the 305 was heads, intake, carb and exhausts. In other words, a 305 was a 250 that was allowed to breathe.
:cheers

[MK IISS]

Tommy:

If I remember correctly there were only two main differences between the '60 Powerglide 348/305 and the man. trans. 348/320. The 320 had 11.25 pistons, the 305 had 11.0. The lift and duration of the camshafts were similar but the 305 cam was indexed differently to bring the idle speed down and provide more low end torque.

Mid-year in '60 Chevy actually changed the 320 and 335 horse to '61 340 and 350 horse specs but didn't change the horsepower rating until the '61 model year.