Mystery Motor info

[oil4kids]

There were 42 mystery motors made with the 409 block

the 2bolt 409 HD main caps had straddle 4 bolt braces for the middle journals

[Fran Preve]

Oil: I don't know what your point is here. All the Mystery motors had 2 bolt mains. They were 409 blocks cast with 90 degree head banks, the front, rear and bottom were the same as 409's.

[oil4kids]

Fran you said in another post that Smokey didnt like the W motor but here are 2 mystery 09 stlye blocks under his workbench for 35 years until he got sick and sold everything off







QUOTE=Fran Preve]Oil: I don't know what your point is here. All the Mystery motors had 2 bolt mains. They were 409 blocks cast with 90 degree head banks, the front, rear and bottom were the same as 409's.[/QUOTE]

[Fran Preve]

Oil: i was at his auction in 1989 and that's where I met him. All the mystery stuff was sold in 1989/90, the auction lasted the whole speedweek in 1989, and there were a TON of people there with deep pockets. What he didn't sell that week went to people who were there and kept after him. His first auction was in 1988 but he didn't tyhink he was getting a fair price so he had an outfit come in, inventory everything and put prices on it. Let's just say in 1988 and 1989 Smokey's auction was well publized and the fact that he wanted to clean house was well known to many collectors. He had a TON of rare Ford stuff that hung around a while. Was there, saw that. Also Smokey and me gave seminars at a NCOA national convention in 1990 or 91, got to know him better there because we were together for 4 days. I also took the Chevrolet Mark II engine apart and restored it in 1988, I had it in pieces and photgraphed it. But that's a long story.

From the photos there was an implication that MK II's had 4 bolt mains, they all had two bolts in 1963 (Chevy made), whether someone at a later date converted one or two to 4 bolts don't know. At the time they were 2 bolt.

[Phil Reed]

Fran:

I was at Smokey's auction in 89 also!!!!! Delmar McAfee and I came to the Daytona race and went to Smokey's auction too. I guess we didn't get to meet then!! My friend Delmer....was the one who bought Smokey's jump suit right off his back!!!! He had Smokey autograph it and it is in his museum today!!!! Remember Smokey running around in his boxer shorts and cowboy boots afterwards!!!!

That was the first time that I saw Floyd Garrett's Holley Farms 63....I just fell in love with that car!!!! Floyd bought Smokey's black & gold 66 Chevelle that day at the auction.

Small world sometimes!!!!

[oil4kids]

Trish, His daughter sold a lot of his items on ebay early 2001, including his rare prolong shirts, His hats have all been placed in museums already, even the Smithsonian. Her ebay name is LSBY13, when she started listing his items they still had plenty of engines, including small block and big block bonneville engines engine parts, Indy motor parts, fuel injection items, but she does not seem to list his items anymore.

Fran, I attended plenty of NCOA meets and miss Mark Meekins Chevelle Report publication which i know you had a hand in.













Fran:

I was at Smokey's auction in 89 also!!!!! Delmar McAfee and I came to the Daytona race and went to Smokey's auction too. I guess we didn't get to meet then!! My friend Delmer....was the one who bought Smokey's jump suit right off his back!!!! He had Smokey autograph it and it is in his museum today!!!! Remember Smokey running around in his boxer shorts and cowboy boots afterwards!!!!

That was the first time that I saw Floyd Garrett's Holley Farms 63....I just fell in love with that car!!!! Floyd bought Smokey's black & gold 66 Chevelle that day at the auction.

Small world sometimes!!!!

[Fran Preve]

Phil: I was there everyday except Thursday when we went to the 125's. Wednesday Smoke and I got in a Shyt fight over how often the Chevelle was raced, me and another guy had some questions, Smokey ended up confronting me and we had at it. Thursday Floyd talked with him and a few others did too, on my behalf, and Friday I went back and we "kissed and made up". After that we got to be friends. Him and I gave seminars at the NCOA convention when Floyd introduced the restored Chevelle. Smokey was, shall we say, highly opinionated, and stuck in his ways. If you knew him you could argue with him, if you didn't you couldn't. After that I would stop at his shop every year, went to lunch with him a couple of times at the diner down the street. The last time I saw him was in 1997 at an auto show here in Buffalo, he was representing Prolong. Frankly, at that show it was obvious his mind was going, it happens, he wasn't very sharp and his memory was going. Anyway......................

A guy from Niagara falls, NY was there and we found some Mystery connecting rods, which were also used in the Z-11 (whole bottom end was), paid $300. I know Floyd got one Mystery for the Holly Farms car, one went to a guy restoring the 1963 Mickey Thompson Corvette. He had two short blocks left after the auction which were useless without the heads and intake. They weren't under the bench at the time. I remember him taking off the jumpsuit (shirt and pants?) and that was typical Smokey. And the hat, that grungy hat. I know he didn't know the true worth of most of his stuff and was paranoid over being ripped off. They put up a road draft tube from a '67 L-88, which I recognized. It started at $5.00, I bid it up to $25 or so and then dropped out. He sat there puffing on his pipe as it bid to $125 or so. But, as you know, he want WAY to much for a lot of stuff and it didn't sell. But there were a lot of people there and someone should have offered him a fair price at some time.

As far as what was left I don't know, he had a lot in the early 90's but I never heard what went where, and never heard of another auction. This spring the property was sold and is going to be or has been leveled I think. There was a group who wanted to save it and make it a "museum". Would have maybe been a good idea but who would run it?. I'll stop by this fall and see what happened.

I'll say this, he was a man's man, you couldn't ask for a more loyal friend, a stand up guy. But MAN what an EGO!. At least I don't EXPECT to be worshipped!. But it is nice.

OIL: I was worshipped by some at the NCOA conventions but it made me feel uneasy, I'm actually a regular guy who like to discuss cars. That said, when someone says he knows more he'd better be able to back it up, or I go off. I really enjoyed the conventions, I think I gave seminars at 1/2 dozen or so. I was ALWAYS available to ANYONE at ANY time to answer questions but I guess some didn't think so, after all he "bought' me to be there. He paid me gas money and put a roof over my head and bought my food, that's all I asked for and wanted, expenses. It's a true shame Mark dropped out, he was a GREAT guy, and no one knew more about Chevelle. HAven't talked to him in years.

PS: When they tore out the Mark IV line I got Mark into the plant for a final tour. He was able to photograph EVERYTHING pertaining to the manufacture of the Mark. This was no small thing as Detroit had to OK the photos. Anyway, I'm not a bad guy, but like Smokey, you gotta know me, typeing words doesn't do it, I would SPEAK with different inflections that YOU would put in my words by reading them. Or some at least.

Phil: true shame we didn't know each other at the auction, could have had a GREAT time discussing the W. Maybe someday. It was a hoot there wasn't it.

[Impalaguru]

Hey Fran and Phil,
Here is a picture I took at the DesMoines Goodguys meet a few years ago. A vendor had these out on display and I snapped a picture. After learning more about the mystery motors and talking first hand with those that have seen them, these are waaaay to big to be mystery motor valve covers. But, what are they for? I think we ALL know they aren't off Smokey's engine.
Ross

[Impalaguru]

:cuss We'll try it again......

[MK IISS]

I don't remember the MK II having breather provisions like that but maybe they did. MkIV valve cover?

[oil4kids]

Looks like a swap meet vender trying to make a few quick bucks on welded up stock covers- These are not Mystery motor covers- they have 4 screw holes on the bottom and 3 on the top just like the standard production- the bottom of the heads were tapered a little to fit the smaller 409 block 90 degree block




I don't remember the MK II having breather provisions like that but maybe they did. MkIV valve cover?

[Fran Preve]

They're definately Mark IV, Mystery VC could almost fit inside a Mk, also I don't see the spot welds for the drippers. The oil fill seems to be for a "press in" rubber cap as oppsed to a twist in, that would help date them.

[MK IISS]

Fran:

I just noticed all the hold down bolt holes Oil mentioned. Looks like five on the bottom side. What the heck are these thing?

[brisbane47]

There were 42 mystery motors made with the 409 block

the 2bolt 409 HD main caps had straddle 4 bolt braces for the middle journals
I will have to agree with Fran on this one. There were never any MKII (mystery) engines made with the straddle braces on the main caps. I have a set that looks very similar to those in the picture that were machined and installed as per the engine builder. The blocks were 90 degree, and as Fran said, they had the 409 sides, front and backs. TS

[MK IISS]

Fran:

I just noticed all the hold down bolt holes Oil mentioned. Looks like five on the bottom side. What the heck are these thing?

Fran: Please ignore my stupid question.

[60convert]

all i have to say is that if these were indeed smokeys parts would you really write on them with a black marker???
Jesse

[Fran Preve]

There are no stupid questions, only stupid questions................ONLY KIDDING RICHARD!. Good question, sure looks like 5 bolt holes on bottom, and to tell the truth I had to look over my head at some of my MK IV valve covers I have nailed there. The Mark IV has 4 on the bottom and 3 on the top, then I looked for some Mark II pictures (couldn't find the ones you sent quickly) but did find the Hot Rod article. The valve covers pictured in that article have the same, 4 bottom/3 top. They also have drippers (I don't notice spot welds on these). The ones in the article also have the bracket for the wire loom, but do NOT have oil fills or PCV holes, rather welded on oil fill/breathers. They DO have a "box" under the oil fill hole however.

Richard, beats me, from???. You sent me the Rumble article, what does THAT show?. 5 holes got me stumped, also HR article shows valve covers with indentations for hold down screws like a MK IV.

[Fran Preve]

There are no stupid questions, only people who ask them......................ONLY KIDDING RICHARD!. Good question, the MK IV valve covers nailed over my head have 4 bolts on the bottom, and 3 bolts on the top. I couldn't find the Rumble article you sent me quickly but found the Hot Rod article on the Mystery motor. That shows, 4 bolts on the bottom, and 3 on the top, all have indentations like on a Mark IV for the bolts. Those also have drippers, and a "box" where the oil fill would go to control oil splash. They do NOT have provisions (holes) for PCV valves/AC breather. As I said, when I retsored the Chevy Mystery motor I compared all the parts to a MK IV (and 409) and the MK II valve covers almost fit inside the MK IV.

Richard: All that said, the 4 holes shown in these pictures seem to be at the TOP of the valve cover!, and the bottom 5 (?) have no indentations. So i got the same stupid question, what are they from?. Look at the Rumble article and re-post.

[MK IISS]

Fran:

I found the RUMBLE photos. As you said there is no breather/pvc hole in the covers. The oil fill/twist on cap is in a different location on the MK II cover, closer to the front end where you see the welded in breather in the HOT ROD article.
I said ignore my post because I noiced the fifth hole appears to have been added later, after Mfg. because they are not evenly spaced.

But now I noticed the breather/pvc hole is near the four hole bolt hold down side which on a MK IV would be the exhaust manifold side. The breather/pvc holes are always on the top intake three hole side on the MK IV. So these are one wierd set of valve covers.

My guess is these covers are from some specialized MK IV industrial engine or they really are from Smokey's "stack of stuff" and are from an early pre-production prototype engine. But then again maybe I'm looking at the pictures wrong and whatta I know anyways.

[60convert]

reading what you guys are talking about on the valve covers whos to say they are even chevy???? just a thought, because as you guys keep stating they don't resemble chevy stuff???
Jesse

[Fran Preve]

Jesse: You bring up a good point, I wondered too, but I can't figure the indentations on one side for where the hold down bolts go and none on the other. As Richard points out, the holes for the PCV would be on the top (towards intake side, and the sure look like GM. But the Mystery and MK IV only have 3 bolts up there (from all the pictures we've ever seen. Prototype?. We'd have to hold them in our hands to really know (I'd like to see the bottom). I KNOW all the MK II's had drippers but I don't notice indentations for spot welds.

[brisbane47]

Jesse: You bring up a good point, I wondered too, but I can't figure the indentations on one side for where the hold down bolts go and none on the other. As Richard points out, the holes for the PCV would be on the top (towards intake side, and the sure look like GM. But the Mystery and MK IV only have 3 bolts up there (from all the pictures we've ever seen. Prototype?. We'd have to hold them in our hands to really know (I'd like to see the bottom). I KNOW all the MK II's had drippers but I don't notice indentations for spot welds.
Someone is pulling your chain, looks like two MKIV covers welded together to BS everyone at the swap meet. Unless Chevrolet made a "super mystery" V10!!! (a joke) I am a little surprised that you guys would fall for this one. TS

[Loafer409]

"But the Mystery and MK IV only have 3 bolts up there (from all the pictures we've ever seen. Prototype?. We'd have to hold them in our hands to really know (I'd like to see the bottom). I KNOW all the MK II's had drippers but I don't notice indentations for spot welds."

====

I have pictures of a Mystery Motor, taken by,(I seem to remember his handle was AceFocal from the orginal boards, at one of the musuems, don't recall with one, but it clearly shows only 4 holes on the exhaust side of the valve cover and only 2 gaskket locating slots.. Can't tell about the intake side.
Thos valve cover look like Pontiac valve cover to me,but that just a fooggy old memory I have...09

[1963]

There was something to buy at Smokeys rummage sale besides old Autobuyer magazines.These were cast and machined for a Carter AFB then they used an adapter to install the Holley carb.

[1963]

Another look .

[1963]

And another.

[1963]

One more for now.

[oil4kids]

Wow - this manifold opens up a pandoras box- So the Winters foundry was involved with the mystery motor..so...........where are all these lost casting molds

Was this a Smokey design since it was at his shop?

heres another rare piece but a dual quad that looks like a 409 manifold but its for a ? bbc?

[Fran Preve]

Mark: is there any casting ID on it?. Looks 409 but for a big block. Mystery?. Compare it to a Mark IV manifold, the Mystery motor and Mark IV won't interchange.

[ed409chevy]

Wow - this manifold opens up a pandoras box- So the Winters foundry was involved with the mystery motor..so...........where are all these lost casting molds

Was this a Smokey design since it was at his shop?

heres another rare piece but a dual quad that looks like a 409 manifold but its for a ? bbc?
Mark, where did you get the picture of the dual four manifold? I am involved in the Mystery Motor project that was featured in Chevy Rumble recently. We are building a mystery powered 63 Biscayne for drag racing. Hayden Proffitt has agreed to drive it, providing we can get it done before we all get to old!! We have all the aluminum Z-11 parts and we are building it pretty much as it would have been built in 1963. I found the engine in Pennsylvania about 8 years ago. My friend, Roger Sartino, with whom I am doing the project, recently found a nos dual four intake for the mystery motor. Since this motor was run on NASCAR tracks with a single four, this would indicate that quite possibly Chevrolet intended to put this engine on the drag strip. If not, why would they bother casting a dual four intake. Too bad Chevrolet pulled out of racing in 63. We are building the drag car that Chevrolet should have, and may have, built in 63. Ed409chevy

[dq409]

Graet Picture !!
Hope you get that engine done so you can have the car at the convention !!,, dq

[ed409chevy]

DQ, we would love to have the car at the convention, but Roger has a big land development project that he is tied up with and I am finishing my new building for all my cars. We are doing a repaint on my all original 62 Biscayne 409-409 car that I am bringing to the convention, so that will tie me up for most of the summer. Current plans are to work on it this winter and have it ready sometime next year. We hope to run in the 10 second bracket with it. Ed409chevy

[oil4kids]

Ed

this manfold was picked up at a michigan swap meet and then sold on ebay a few months back. Ive never seen one like this again.






Mark, where did you get the picture of the dual four manifold? I am involved in the Mystery Motor project that was featured in Chevy Rumble recently. We are building a mystery powered 63 Biscayne for drag racing. Hayden Proffitt has agreed to drive it, providing we can get it done before we all get to old!! We have all the aluminum Z-11 parts and we are building it pretty much as it would have been built in 1963. I found the engine in Pennsylvania about 8 years ago. My friend, Roger Sartino, with whom I am doing the project, recently found a nos dual four intake for the mystery motor. Since this motor was run on NASCAR tracks with a single four, this would indicate that quite possibly Chevrolet intended to put this engine on the drag strip. If not, why would they bother casting a dual four intake. Too bad Chevrolet pulled out of racing in 63. We are building the drag car that Chevrolet should have, and may have, built in 63. Ed409chevy

[ed409chevy]

Mark, I believe that is the only dual four intake ever made for the mystery engine. I'm quite sure it is the one Roger now owns. AT least, it has found a good home and will eventually be seen at future drag race events.Thanks for the answer. Ed409chevy. :cheers

[dq409]

Ed, Then well see it at the Second anual convention !!! ,,, dq

[brisbane47]

It appears that you have a single carb manifold for the MKII. They came machined for the AFB, then a 1/2" aluminum plate adapted the holley carb. The double four barrel intake would be an extremely rare piece if it does fit the MKII. Working just with the NASCAR application, it is something that we would have had no concern with at the time. It would be very interesting to know what they had in mind if it is indeed for the MKII. Thanks for the picture. TS