Buying a 409

[Rob Berkman]

Hi all you W veterans out there! I'm pretty green at this game but have been enjoying your discussions immensely. I just wanna run a couple questions by you for advice and input. I've got a half restored (shabbily done) '58 Impala 348 3x2 4-speed and toying with the idea of swapping out the 348 for a 409 and found one from a "Jack" @ Prime Chevy Classics in Pittsburg, Pa., for $9000 if I pick it up. It's complete from pulleys to bellhousing, carb to pan, a 400hp from a '65 Impala. Is this a good deal and is this guy credible? I'd be travelling from Calgary, Alberta, Canada and don't want to waste my trip or hopes. Also, is it wise or feasible to put the 348 3x2 set-up on any 409 - I don't know if the manifold would breath as well, even with bigger carbs, as the stock aluminum 4bbl. would (I just like the look of the tri-power!)? Whether it even bolts up I don't know. Looking forward to hearing from you guys!!

[threeimpalas]

Price seems rather steep, IMO.

[62Belair409]

It costs a lot of $ to build one...it costs a lot of dollars to buy one built. If you buy one built and its junk, you've spent a lot of money and still have junk. If you build one, you can at least have the opportunity if knowing what you are building. I bought a 1962 409/409 and the motor was junk, by the time I was done, we replaced the block, heads, cam, crank, rockers, pushrods, intake and both carburetors. I say build.

Dave

[JimKwiatkowski]

I agree to much money and you might have to spend more to rebuild. :doh

Shop around don't buy the first one see you should be able find a better deal one thats been rebuilt :deal

Or build your own,good way to learn about the W-engine I think you could build a stroker with that kind of money :D

[Tom Kochtanek]

Rob:

You have an interesting challenge! First of all, let me ask if the 348 in the '58 Chevy is original to the vehicle. If so, please consider keeping that engine and storing it, as some future owner might be interested.

If you decide to move to the 409 setup, you might think of "managing" the project yourself, to ensure the end results. There are lots of questions, answers and decisions to be made, and you are the best to make these.

I don't know this fellow out of Pittsburgh, perhaps others might. Any competent machine shop is capable of working on a "W engine, some more than others. I am using a combination of local machine shops and a local engine builder who lets me "participate". This leads to interesting challenges, but you get to make the decisions along the way, and you get to "make the investment".

Most of those who participate in these discussion threads are much better informed and more experienced than I in these matters, and they have (collectively) helped me out a lot. I suspect you would get the same support.

If I were you I'd keep the 348 setup, look around for a rebuildable 409 "starter kit" and take it from there!

Good luck!

TomK

P.S. Take my advise with a grain of sand, I have been recently corrected after having put in a pair of pistons in backa#$wards :)

[dq409]

Tom, Don`t EVER mention the pistons in wrong again !!!! :takethat



Besides,,,, it`s something that you will only do once !!!! :D



.

[bobs409]

Maybe we should all tell something embarrasing we've done in the automotive field. :D It happens. ;)

[jim_ss409]

Seems high to me. especially since it's so far away. Seeing as how you live in Calgary it might be worthwhile to give Aubrey a call. http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/intro.html
The tri-power manifold won't fit any of the high performance 409's, those are the 380HP and up models. They have taller ports. But I think they would work fine on the lower horse 409's.

[jim_ss409]

Something embarrasing? How about the time I was working on a Chryco 440 Magnum and forgot to put the throttle return spring back on. :doh I reached in and turned the key. It instantly reved up at full throttle. I shut it off pretty quick, but not quick enough. It took out a rod bearing. :cry I was pretty lucky though. The crank was okay.

[Fran Preve]

409 prices are getting high but $9000 for a complete and rebuilt 1965 is getting more than a bit out of line, it's a single 4 barrel 400 hp engine. Wait and check around before jumping into anything, and pay attention to the comment about checking with Aubrey, he's close and knows his shyt. Think about what you want too, is rebuilding the 348 and hopping it up a little an option?. How about a 409 truck block and heads with tri power?. How about dumping the troublesome trips for a single 4 brrl?. Do you do the car first?, or the engine?. In any event $9K is about twice what a decent running but not correctly restored 409 is worth.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Rob:

Sound advise all around. Listen to what Fran and others recommend. Then think about what it is you want to accomplish. Perhaps freshening up what you already have (a nice 348) is an option. If you don't have a fat wallet, Fran's suggestion of starting with a truck block and truck heads makes sense, as these are readily available and priced reasonably. If you decide to make performance your goal, be prepared to open up your wallet and let the dollars fly. Most hiperf components (especially hiperf heads) and stuff with "performance origins" are high demand/low supply items. It all depends on what you are trying to make out of your ride. Good luck in your project!

Best,
TomK

[bobs409]

I remember a long, long time ago, there was an ad placed in LGC magazine. Someone was selling a fresh rebuilt 409 and wanted $10,000 for it.

I don't recall what size 409 it was or any other details. Or if it sold.

[fatride]

Fran, please quit diss'n the three two carb setup! :mad: The only troublesome part of the three two setup is the builder that doesn't have the knowledge to set them up correctly. My" trips " have explosive throttle response, have a fine idle and I get 16 mpg cruising on the center carb! Don't argue!
PS. They look better than any single four. :D

[fatride]

Rob, how about looking for a 409 truck block and crank, stuffing it with 10.5 Ross pistons, use the 348 heads after a mild port job and some 2.07 1.72 valves, install a 230/234 @ .050" cam and top it off with the three twos? Take it from me, you will be pleased with the results!
:brow

[jim_ss409]

I think the truck engine route that Fat described is a good way to go. You would end up with just as much, or more, power for less money and you'd have a freshly re-built engine that you could count on.

[jim_ss409]

I think the truck engine route that Fat described is a good way to go. You would end up with just as much, or more, power for less money and you'd have a freshly re-built engine that you could count on. Or you could go a step further and put a 396-427 crank in the 409 and end up with about 440 to 450 cubes. Again Aubrey's the guy to see about this. He also knows how to put a big crank in a 348. I think the only way I'd be at all interested in that 65-409 engine would be if you wanted one with that date code for a high dollar restoration.

[biscaynewagon]

Rob,

I am local, I sent you a PM. we can meet up over somewhere, maybe Pittsburg can be re consider. But I am also kinda green :)

[Rockfish39]

It's complete from pulleys to bellhousing, carb to pan, a 400hp from a '65 Impala. Is this a good deal and is this guy credible?

:scratch:...

The only thing that engine has, that mine doesn't, are the 583 heads. Other than that, same same....

OK, perhaps the owner knows that this engine is one of 742 units, and is trying to price it accordingly.

A princely sum to pay, and at best arguable, if you were putting this engine into a '65 car. But at $9K??? and you want to put it in a '58???

I say NO WAY!!!! At BEST worth only about 1/2 that much money...

Rock :cool:

[62Belair409]

Rockfish

I disagree with you that the engine is not worth 1/2 of $9,000, and I also state that the engine might be worth more than $9,000. The problem is that the engine value is unknown because there are too many variables involved when you buy a completed engine. That 409 could be a gem or junk. With that in mind I and Rockfish would not pay $9,000 because the risk/reward isnt there.

Dave

[Tom Kochtanek]

I think any stock intake with multiple carbs looks cool. I love the look of 3 twos as well as the dual quads. I hope to build a 348 block using a 409 crank and 333 truck heads with slight modifications. Since it will be going in a 1961 Bel Air sport coupe I think it would be appropriate to go with three deuces, just for the nostalgia appeal. The fact that they can be made reliable and perform well is a bonus :) :) :)

Open the hood, what do you see first? Intake and Carbs (unless you cover them up with factory air cleaners)! ! !

To each his own.

Cheers,
TomK

[Tom Kochtanek]

And valve covers -- open the hood and you see those beautiful scalloped "W" covers :)

Lest we forget...

Tom K

[biscayne60]

Hi just tell You that I am from Ontario Canada,and last year I was luckey to buy a rebuilt 1965 409 passenger car for $1700.cnd, from the buy and sale book,I took a chance and it work, sure there was somes parts missing but got all my parts on Ebay and show cars automotive ,was smoking a bit but find the trouble ,it was the vent tube ,the pc valve was stock ,I change the pc valve now the motor run fine ,I thing $9000 is a lot of money to pay and the trip to go there to,you should try to look on Ebay or Hemming.com,couples months ago a guy from around your part of the country can not remember wich province maybe your,ad somes pontiacswith 409 motors for sale on Ebay .
Like you my project is haft done a 1960biscayne 2 doors ,hope to put my 409 motor this winter in the car ,man its gone look nice ,i put the motor on a stand with a rad ,and almost every day ,i start the motor just to ear the sound of it,there is nothing like the sound of a 409 ,make you go back in the past !
So keep looking for that 409 if You luckey like Me it can happen You may find your 409 at a good price. I hope You find your 409 soon! Biscayne60

[Fran Preve]

Fat: If you know what your doing and have sorted them out before trips can be viable. You do, not everyone does, and I'm one. Sorting the carbs can be a chore, starting with matching carbs is a big help, if you like a challenge go with tri-power. That said, if your pulling your hair out trying to set them up put on a Carter and be done with it.

That said, why not stay with the -333- truck heads, they're basically 348 heads. As far as the 2.07's, yes you can, after you open up the seats to take them, but 1.94/1.60's would work on a mild engine, remember, 400 small blocks came with that size valve. My 400 was in a 4300lb short box van (brick) I used to tow with, ran 15.50's. All I'm saying is 1.94/1.60's will work just fine on a MILD 409, which is a 409 truck with 10 to one pistons, mild cam and tri power. That truck motor also has 2 and a 1/2 inch outlets on the exhaust manifolds, better than the 2" 348's.

[fatride]

Yeh, 194/160 valves will be ok for the street. They will give you incredible throttle response with the right cam but would limit top end power to around 4800 rpm with the bore the size of the 09. I figgure you have to do a valve job anyway so spend a little more now get them hogged out to 2.07/172 and get the best you can from the lopo heads. Generaly you will need to buy new valves so go with ss ones. A mild port job can be done on your work bench with a minimum of tools. Fran you are correct about working on the three two's! You have to do more than rejet and adjust the pump rod. Get the drills, pin vice and pin gauges out. Float levels have to be dead nut's, pump stroke needs to be correct. When I started work on the trips installed on the 348 the front bumper would near hit the pavement when I matted the throttle. It was frustrating .
:scratch

[Tic's60]

9K is pretty steep! I just got might 1st 09 for about 7 less. It's a truck one but with some modes like others have mentioned it will do fine.
I also found a rebuilt running one with a tri on it for 4k. Waiting to pull the valve covers to see if the heads are what they say they are as well as the block numbers.
If I don't go for it I'll pass on the contact info.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Bear in mind, guys.... this engine has "583" heads on it. That cannot in any way be compared to any small port version.
I for one, would pay more for those heads than I would for a complete "done" truck engine... triple carb and all.

[Tic's60]

The 4k one is a QB W/609'S "SUPOSSEDLY" I am waiting for a buddy of mine to do an onsite number check.
It runs and has 2k or less on it, per owner, so we will see.

Truck bocks are and should be cheaper but will work fine in most cases.

[Fran Preve]

Aubrey: you can get 583's for about $1500, you can't do a truck motor for that. I know 583's are better than 690's but not THAT much better. I'd say a feshened truck motor with trips would go for closer to 3k, deduct $250 for a single 4.

[Rob Berkman]

I can't believe the avalanche of helpfulness you guys have showered on me (and from all over the continent!) - thanks so much! And for a guy whose experience doesn't even include having heard a 409 in real life! Thanks to Tic's 60, Fatride, Biscayne 60, Tom kochtanek, 62 Belair 409, 3 Impalas, dq409 (I take it that's not Dairy Queen!), Jim Kwiatkowski, Jim SS409, Fran Preve, bobs409, and even to Bob for my birthday salutations!
I take it the price tag is high (thank God!), as is the risk. Seller (from Hemmings) says it's never been opened, has about 40k on it, and ran well, but it irks me he (for that kind of price) doesn't even set it up on a stand for rollover or test running. Oh well, I do feel better about going the route Fatride suggests. Yet Jim SS409 says it could develop more power than the one for sale? I thought the truck or 348 heads would definitlely limit the breathing to less than 400hp. Nevertheless, I'm aiming for what a guy in the early 60's hung up on the '58 look would do to hot rod his Impala without going to extremes - so a torquey 409 modified truck engine sounds good to me. Meanwhile, although the 348 isn't original to this car, it is a '58 motor, and I will first modify this one with a cam and some bigger than 2" manifolds while building the 409 project. I have been running regular(87 octane) gas in the car and have never heard a ping even though the temp was up a few times and the CR is 9.5. Would I have to run super in the 409 with 10.5's? Sometimes that's over $0.80 a quart up here!!
I do have another coupla questions though - are the 348 heads better than the truck ones - even for the 409? Maybe there are later, higher horse 348 heads I should look for, either for the 409 or my 348.
Fatride, is that a 348 or 409 with the 3x2's on top in your picture? Nice tri-y headers - never actually seen those for sale. That's a pretty picture!

[threeimpalas]

There are quite a few different castings of the 348 heads. Some are better than others. It seems that the 333 truck heads are limited by their valve sizes, but can perform well with larger valves due to their runner design. I wouldn't "toss 'em" just because they're truck heads.

There was a thread fairly recently that discussed the variations between the 348 valve and runner sizes.

[wrench]

I'll list my extra 409 engine and my asking price in a PM to you here.

Tom

[fatride]

Rob, That is a 409 truck short block with 1960 348 heads and three twos. :D

[JimKwiatkowski]

fatride,Let's see some larger photo's of your W-engine and your car :D

[JimKwiatkowski]

fatride,I see you tried to post photos 4 times.After you select photos are you clicking on upload photos?

[fatride]

Yeh, I know I can do it but it's been awhile. :dunno I didn't have time to play today, I had to go to the new house and work on the porch/deck. I have a tight schedule, I am either working on the new house,working on the old house, just plain working, or working on the Impala! After I get the new house and garage built and sell the old house maybe I can relax and spend time with the Wife, work on the Impala and play on the computer. I waas trying to pull pictures off the 3.5 floppy but it wasn't working out. I'll get them pictures up tomorrow. ;)

[JimKwiatkowski]

No hurry we can wait get your inportant work done first.I don't even know what year or what kind of car you own?

[fatride]

Here's a few.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Great looking car and very nice detail work on engine and 3x2 set up I'll bet you have many hours on the 3x2 to get them all dialed in :)

[CDNpontiac409guy]

aaah !
looking good, Fat

[Rob Berkman]

Fatride,
That's just the kind of motor I'd like to find myself building and putting into my '58!! She's a beaut!! - And so's your car! Where did you find the open air filters - I can only find the likes of the popular (the ones I have already) shrouded chrome cans and K&N doesn't even list Tripower Chev? What CR in your engine and do you run hi-test? Again, a great custom example!

[fatride]

Air filter/air box, Daytona accessories by Mr Gasket, filters are K&N. Comp is 10.1:1 with a truck block .030" over and Ross 10.5 forged pistons. Yes I run high test 93 octane@ 35 dgs total.