Did I hear this correct?

[TomO]

Guys – Did I hear Lamar correctly? I heard him say that he has taken a 454 block and angle milled the deck to match the 409’s deck. Then drilled and taped the holes for the head bolt locations of the 409 heads. Custom pistons would be needed. The cam would have to be ground correctly. I am sure that it is simpler than it sounds but I wonder what is involved. Did I hear this correctly?

Tom

[348NUT]

What I did hear him say is he bores the 409 mains out to fit the 454 mains, then drills the oiling holes to match and bores the main oil passages to provide better oiling also uses a big block oil pump.

I can't imagine you could cut the 454 block without hitting water :eek: but then again what do I know :dunno :?

[TomO]

Nut - I heard the info on the 454 crank, but I swear that I heard something about cutting the deck on a 454 block. He put out so much info that I wish that I would have had a recorder. Maybe I am dreaming Maybee I heard it somewhere else. :?

Tomo

[SS425HP]

I wasn't at his seminar, but that is what he is doing. I have heard that several times, now. Using a 454 Aluminum block, I think. Not positive about that part. I have heard he has an aluminum 409 block available, and he was using a Chev big block of some kind and decking it at 74 degrees. Would almost have to be a billet block.

Fred

[oil4kids]

Yup he told me he takes a aluminum 454 block esp made for him, mills the block 74 degrees from its original 90 degrees and redrills the block for the 409 head bolt location, special cam, everything else is big block chevy so you know it can be a very big engine like 540 cubes

he quoted me $50,000 and wait 6months to-1 year for it, of course that is complete with his z11 alum heads and intake

[nufsed]

aahhh, pocket change! I'll take three of 'em. :rofl

[threeimpalas]

Yup he told me he takes a aluminum 454 block esp made for him, mills the block 74 degrees from its original 90 degrees and redrills the block for the 409 head bolt location, special cam, everything else is big block chevy so you know it can be a very big engine like 540 cubes

What's the fun in having that? Doesn't have the mystique of being a "409", which is what one would likely be going for with such work using the Z11 heads and what-not.

[jim_ss409]

If I remember right he mentioned that he sometimes angle mills the heads, or mayby it was the block. :dunno He said he did this to increase the clearance between the open exhaust valve and the cylinder wall. When someone asked about piston to head clearance in the quench area I'm pretty sure he recomended .042 but then he went on to say that the engines that ran the hardest the piston would actually touch, or at least the carbon would touch the head. Another interesting thing he brought up was that a W engine has a narower angle between the lifter bores than a big block. I think he said the W engine is 43 deg. and the big block is 45 deg. The problem is that some cam manufacturers use 45 deg. cams for W engines. So when you install the cam based on the #1 cylinder the other bank would be wrong. Off the top of my head I'd think that this would mean the other bank would be retarded by 4 deg? It's probably no big deal as long as you were aware of the potential problem and split the difference. I know I'm gonna check one cylinder from each bank on my next engine. He also recomended using new stainless valves rather than re-using the old valves. He said he's seen alot of engines destoyed when the 40 year old valve let go. He doesn't like cast pistons, especially old ones. And he doesn't like installing hardened valve seats. He said that you risk hitting water when they are installed deep enough to stay put. So rather than installing shallow seats that might come loose he said he'd rather not use anything. I think I'm accurate with this stuff but if not I'd welcome corrections. I know some guys had video cams going.

[Fran Preve]

It would be impossible to mill a Mark IV block to 74 degrees, you'd hit water all over. Everything else I saw in the last post sounds good, but be VERY, VERY carefull enlarging the oil passages to MK IV size, that's a LONG passage. Personally it's something you don't need on anything but a full out race motor, and if the drill "wanders' you very possibly MIGHT drill thru.

[Gerry]

I can add some info to the aluminum 409 story. I've attended several NMCA/NSCA drag events for the last 10 years with an interest in 409 cars. In 1995 Jim Sellers built a 62 bubbletop to compete in the Pro Nostalgia class. This is a heads-up class based on cubic inch/weight. Jim was a 409 nut. He spent huge amounts of money to make the 409 competitive in this class, which included lightweight Mopars with Hemi's and similar bodied Fords with aluminum FE engines.He had Lamar build an iron block/aluminum head engine. In 1995, he was running low 10's and occassionally a high 9's. The car was very competitive with Jim winning several events. Each successive year the cars in this class became a little quicker and faster. Jim was not one to let money be an obstacle to going faster. He was having a problem with longevity in the 09 blocks as the engine produced more horsepower, so in 1997 he bought two aluminum B/B tall deck blocks from Donovan Engineering. The blocks were unmachined on the top side, but B/B on the lower end. He had Lamar cut the angle on the top of the unmachined block and drill/tap the head bolt holes to match the 09 Alum. heads. This solved the problem with the lower end and the car was staying competitive. Jim died very unexpectedly in July of 1999. The racing operation was turned over to long time friend and drag racer, Jim Mackensie. Jim campaigned the car the next season but was a few tenths off the competition, by this time the cars were going 9.10's. In 2001, Mackensie had Pat Musi build the engine and once again the car became competitive, running 9.0's @ 148. winning a couple of events. During the 2002 season Mackensie won the Pro Nostagia points championship, going 8.90/8.80 @150. Sometime during the 2003 season, the engine was severly damaged and a decision was made not to use the 409 any longer. This season Mackensie showed up with a B/B in the bubbletop citing expense as the reason for the switch. I heard at the convention that Rusty Symmes bought the 09 style engine and spare parts from Jim Mackensie and is now running a Pro Nostalgia 62 bubbletop.

[walkerheaders]

here's mr mackenzies 09 at atco dragway a few years ago.

[oil4kids]

No Fran- these are not standard big blocks, these are aluminum blocks with extra material around the water jackets so that they can be redrilled------if every big block could be redrilled everyone would be doing it,, I think Lamar said merlin was making his blocks but dont hold me to that

[SS425HP]

hat motor of Mackenzies looks just like the one in the 62 at the convention. It was inside with the Z-11 cars. On the far left end. Think it was billed as the fastest 409.

[walkerheaders]

here's another

[dq409]

Jim, You did get what Lamar said right, but, several engine builders I spoke to after Lamars presentation said he is wrong about not being able to install new seats in our heads.

All said you can use the new shallow seats and not have any problems if installed correctly.

I have heard this before some time ago on this forum. ,,,,dq

[64ss409]

I think I mentioned this before. The machine shop that did my heads last winter installed exhaust seats. I questioned him about this before he did it. He said he has done quite a few 348's and 409's and has never had a problem. He has built several stroker 409 engines and was working on one while mine was being done. I was confident in his work, but after hearing Lamar's presention, I did not sleep well the first night.

DQ, I am glad you found other machine shops that are doing it. Makes me feel a bit better.

Ron

[Fran Preve]

Obviously it was done, but with a Donovan block, and a tall deck at that. This had to be a MAJOR maching operation!. but with deep pockets I suppose ANYTHING is possible. I have a hard time with a 409 head fitting on top of a big block motor, but with the bore centers being the same it must be at least POSSIBLE. The cost would have to be incredible, I believe those Lamar aluminum heads are $7500, I couldn't guess what a Donovan tall deck block would cost. Then machine it?. That custom intake would cost $2000 (going by what sheet metal intakes are going for in National Dragster. Then again, having something no one on earth has but you may be worth $25-30,000 (or more?). Thanks, but it's something WAY beyond my means. Or desire for that matter.

PS: If I was in the class that engine wouldn't be, or any other engine like it, or any non production aluminum head or block, any brand.

[threeimpalas]

...The cost would have to be incredible....

Hence the $50000 price tag quoted previously in this thread.

Lamar's Z11 heads are $6200.

[Fran Preve]

I didn't know the price today, I have a Lamar brouchure from years ago, I may have seen that price three, or from talking with Rusty some 15 years ago. Does he still sell repo Z-11 intakes?, if so how much now?. $50,000 for a kinda like a 409 style engine?. I'll hold my comments.

[dq409]

Guys , You are incorrect in saying those aluminum heads are Lamars.
They are Rich Rojeski "CRW" here in Portland.
Lamar only does the machining and up until now the marketing.

Up until now Rich has stayed in the background but now wants thing to rev up and really market and sell these parts.

Rich is in talks with several other machinist to try and bring the production up and the costs down.

Until now it was hard to buy just the heads and other aluminum parts Rich makes as Lamar only wanted to sell them with a complete engine from his shop.

This is not in any way a slam on Lamar ,,, just the facts.

Rich and Vince his new partner are going to do some great things in the aluminum parts field for our engines this coming year.

Watch for more parts for our non-stroker blocks like aluminum 690 heads and manifolds.
Up until now the focus was on parts for the big stroker Z II engines.

And YES,,,, you can still get the Z II intake and also a 690 blower or big stroker dual quad manifold, aluminum water pumps and a redesigned alum timing cover.

The new 690 non-stroker intake is a redsigned version of the blower manifold with smaller runner and a higher plenum more suited for the stock block 409`s.

Hope this clears up things ,,,dq

[Fran Preve]

Judging by the number of aluminum heads available for ALL other engines aluminum 409's shouldn't cost over $2000 pair. That said do 583's not 690's, they're a better head and completely interchangeable. Beside I think I have a sat of GM blueprints for that too. 409 aluminum shouldn't cost any more than other "oddball" engines (Buick, Caddy, Pontiac etc), engines that haven't the market size of say Chevy's, Ford's, and Mopars.

That said,once aluminum 690/583's are available, REASONABLY priced, iron heads will drop in price dramatically, and cylinder blocks will ESCALATE dramatically!. Something to keep in mind boys and girls, heads are one thing, blocks are another. The shame of it is 348's anad 409's are being priced out of the "little guy" market. Now that I've sold my collection of parts I shudder to think what it would cost ME to put a W together?.

[oil4kids]

So Fran--- what did Winters foundry do with all the pattern molds for the 583's and Z11s to do sand casts

dont tell me there in basement somewhere under some Grandmas house

[TomO]

Fran – I would agree…the cost of just the cores to build a 409 is high and then who knows what kind of problems might be ran into trying to refurbish the cores. When I heard the info about using the 454 block and 409 heads it got me to thinking if this might be a cheaper way to build the engine. Now that I have read thru the posts I see it is not so easy as I had heard.

As I read thru the post there were some very interesting topics that came up. If the aluminum heads come into production and are around 2k that would be great step forward in making the build of these engines more popular.

TomO

[Phil Reed]

64SS409:

Installing hardened exhaust seats has been done for years. Our dyno motor had them installed with no problems. Tony has been putting in hardened seats for me for over 10 years. No problems. Jack Gibbs called and talked last week...he had the same thoughts. But you HAVE TO HAVE THE CORRECT SEAT!!!!!! That is the key!!!! This is the only thing that I can think of that I didn't agree with Lamar about. He has forgotten more than I will ever know but I do know that hardened exhaust seats work.

Phil

[jim_ss409]

I met Rich, the cylinder head guy, at the convention. I was looking through his photos that show all the steps required to build the cylinder heads. It's alot more complicated than I thought. Because of the low production numbers I would expect these heads to be quite pricy compaired to other aftermarket heads. But if the price of 583's & 690's keeps rising they might not seem like a bad deal. During his seminar Lamar said that the street rodders ars starting to get into "W" engines because they're different and they look great. :cool: In some ways this might be a good thing because they will create a demand for aftermarket parts. :clap The downside is that the truck 409's and lower hp 348's won't be as affordable as the once were. :cry If I were building a rod I'd be using a W engine. :D

[dq409]

Jim_SS, You are right in what it takes to set-up and build these alum heads.
And if you only do small production runs then the price per head is high.

Fran, these other aftermarket heads are produced by deep pocket venders that can cast a large production run of parts and collect the profits over a longer time frame with out going under.
The small guy can`t afford to lay out that kind of cash and have the parts sitting on shelves to justify the lower price per unit, which is too bad.

BUT,,, on a better note Rich is working on upping the production numbers and lowering the machining cost . This will help in lowering the overall cost of these parts.

And I know the new (690/583) heads will have all the best design and improvments built into them.

I myself am saving my money to so I can have a set of these babies!!!,,,dq

[Fran Preve]

Oil: those parts are long, long, long gone, besides GM has people who can whip up new ones easily.

Yes, there isn't a hugh market for W heads, and yoy'd have to sit on them until they sold. I have a strange feeling that with some publicity there would be a whole BUNCH of people build up W race motors if aluminum heads are available. With these new CNC machines machining isn't a hugh problem.

Don't scream at ME!, but have them cast in China and then machine them here. You'd be amazed at the high performance parts that are made overseas (hint look at the price).

[dq409]

That said,once aluminum 690/583's are available, REASONABLY priced, iron heads will drop in price dramatically, and cylinder blocks will ESCALATE dramatically!

Fran, I disagree that the iron heads will drop in price !! No matter what parts are repoped there is a lack of iron heads to be had and there will continue to be less as demand increases and hold the prices up.

I believe they will even go higher as demand for the "W" stuff increases.
You can`t build a numbers engine with alum heads !

As far as being cast in China , you still have to have a large number of heads cast to even make that work.

CNC only comes into account after the casting or having the heads done by billet which is still more expensive then casting.

Even having the option of buying these heads, even in small batch runs, is better then nothing. ,,,dq