Mysterious 409.....help

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello :help
As you can see, I am new here. Hoping some of the seasoned W-motor guys here can help me out. Located a 409 I am trying to obtain info about and possibly purchase. Everything the seller has sent me so far reads ok. Only problem I am having is he says there is and never was a casting number on the block. I find this odd and it concerns me. Only thing he says that is on the block is a date code above the oil filter boss on the side of the block. It comes back as a October or December 1962. This doesn't jive either because I thought mid 1962 there was an "X" cast on the block. However, I'd really like to have the casting number off this thing before I plunk down who knows how much for it. It is a complete engine minus carbs and air cleaner and a few other pieces I have already. Has 690 heads on it, roller rockers, solid lifter cam .591 gross lift with 110 degree lobe centers. Has dual quad intake on it (881), water pump off a 59-60 348 with bypass, 919 distributor (dual point hi-po) possibly the correct fuel pump and maybe a starter. Was rebuilt 11/2002 and has been stored since. Engine is .030 over, been decked, heads rebuilt, bronze guides, etc. Has Jahns pistons in it of which I am concerned about a bit. Wondering if they are cast or forged (prefer forged). Anyway, sorry for the long winded post, just trying to gather as much info as I can. Sooooooooooo, WHY doesn't this block have a casting number on it? Chevy has been putting them in the same place for what...........50 years now? :) Hope someone can shed some light on this mystery. This engine (or another 09) will end up in my 62 two door Biscayne.

[wrench]

I vaguely remember a guy from the old forum who made the same claim about no casting number.

But that was ages ago......

:cool:

[JimKwiatkowski]

X on block this info is found on our site

348/409 X on block


Starting mid year of 1962, an "X" was cast into the front of the block on all 409's as well as the 348 truck and replacement blocks of the same year(s). This is located on the left front of the block.

[aapromod]

Hello And welcome, Would this 409 motor be the one for sale on the Late Great chevy Impala swap Board site, By a gentelmen with the name of David?

[Tom Kochtanek]

Biscayne Willy:

Welcome to the Forum! Great group of guys here, ought to be able to help you with most everything. Sorry I can't add much to this conversation, but I do live "right down the road" from you in nearby Columbia, MO. If you're ever in this neck of the woods (why do they say that?) consider stopping by. We can swap stories and I can show you my collection of "W"s and "X"s :) Would love to see some pics of your Biscayne!

Cheers,
TomK

[dq409]

Bisq, You stated the block was decked. This would remove the stamping in that process. ,,,dq

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello all
Thanks for the speedy replies. Gentleman's name I am dealing with is in fact David in Nebraska. He sent me pics of the rear of the block today where the casting number is supposed to be. Guess what..........no casting number! What IS this thing?? It has been decked but that would remove the numbers pertaining to build date, build plant, etc. This engine has no casting numbers, first I have ever seen. From what he says and can find, no "X" cast on it either. Don't know WHAT it is. Would you guys stay away from this engine or no? Just odd and concerns me that it doesn't have a casting number on it. Does have a build date cast on it above the oil filter boss and it comes back October 1962. I'll probably wait until I hear back from you guys to help decide if I should make an offer or not. Guess it would be ok because it is a 409 and it's got quite a few nice/correct pieces on it and with it. We'll see. Thanks for the help thus far.
Pic of the Biscayne that is patiently waiting for an 09.
http://www.rcalloys.com/misc/slammedbiscayne.jpg

[BiscayneWilly]

Here is the picture (1 of 5) of the rear of the block this guy sent me. Appears someone scrubbed the paint away looking for the number. Doesn't seem to be one there. Very odd and concerning :?
http://www.rcalloys.com/misc/nocastingnum.jpg

[JimKwiatkowski]

This could be a early 62 block Show Cars shows no X on a 62 block ( I know dq :takethat )



1962 3788068
1963 3830814 Has "×" On Block
1964 3844422 Has "×" On Block
1965 3857656 Has "×" On Block

Is there any stamping # on the right side of the block or on the right front pad ?

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello

There is nothing on the right front pad since it's been decked. Far as any other markings, no.........only one is the date code above the oil filter area. What are some opinions on this package? Would you invest in this engine or wait until another comes along? Thanks for the help so far.

[Tom Kochtanek]

If you were trying to be "period correct" and locate a 1962 casting, then you will find it quite challenging to find a block with the "068" casting, which I understand to be the 1962 block. If you were to locate an "068" block with a "QB" pad stamp, that I suspect would be even harder.

If, on the other hand, you were just trying to build a 409 to your won specs for driving, racing, etc. then this block you are looking at will do just fine (assuming it is in good operating condition).

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

You probably already know this, but the truck blocks (at least the 409 truck blocks) seem to be pretty popular these days for making stroker engines. If you wanted to make a stroker build for your car, by those parts, locate a truck block (fairly common and less expensive) and use those 690 heads for that build. Of course you are going to need a BBC crank and con rods, special order pistons and such.

Do you have an idea of what you are trying to do with this build? That would help us understand better. Of course, we are all full of opinions anyway :).

Cheers,
TomK

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello all
Thanks for the ongoing information. I understand the 068 block and the QB code are hard to come by and would be big bucks. We're not trying to build our Biscayne as a 100 point 409 car with all the right parts, date codes, etc. Just trying to locate a good 409 engine with as many goodies as we can. Car will be a driver and probably will hit a few nostalgia drags/shows. The thought did cross my mind to build a stroker but rounding up those parts could be challenging as well. This engine if it is as close as 1962 we can get, then we might go for it. Just want a good ol' reliable 409 to make our Biscayne happy. Up until a few months ago the plan was to put a crate 502/502 in it and be done. However, a 409 Biscayne we decided would draw more attention than another B-body with a crate big block in it.
Still, is there any explanation, speculation or guesses as to why it doesn't have a casting number on it?? If it is an early block and I have done my homework correctly, wasn't there a cracking problem? Then again, according to the date code it is a late 62 model. Anyway, more info, suggestions and whatever else you all can throw at me would be great. Would like to maybe get an e-mail from one of you all to possibly help put a price on this package if possible. I've got a number in mind that this guy might "think" it is worth and it's a steep one. We have a number in mind however that we are willing to spend. Help in that department would be wonderful if anyone is willing to lend a hand.
Did get a price break out sheet from Dr.409 to build a 409/409........wooooooo, too many dollars for my pocket-book ;)

[Fran Preve]

1) How much was it?.
2) X means nothing.
3) Jahns makes a quailty piston and is MOST PROBABLY forged.
4) Casting numbers, date codes etc mean squat for what your doing, and you won't make it to look stock anyway (painted VC, generator etc).
5) How much does "David" want for it?.

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello all
The gentleman I am dealing with (Dave in Nebraska) claims it has the forged Jahns pistons. However, I'd probably replace with a set I knew was forged and up to date. Far as a price, one of the members here dealt with this same guy back in February of 2003 on this engine, settling price was $5800. Doubt I would go that high just for the fact he really doesn't know what the block is and some of the parts included with the engine, he just plain can't explain them. Like the exhaust manifolds for example, I can't match the casting numbers off those to anything. No big deal, would throw a set of block hugger or full length headers on it anyway. For what I am wanting to do with my Biscayne, this would probably be a decent engine to go for if the price is right. If he has been sitting on it for this long, he might jump at a first offer, who knows. Whatever 409 I end up with it will have painted valve covers :) I want the engine compartment to be as period correct looking as possible, numbers don't have to match, date codes don't mean much for this application, etc. However, what does matter is that I KNOW what I am getting for my money. Thanks for the info, suggestions, and everything else. Much appreciated and has helped me big time in this.

[Mr Goodwrench]

correct me if I'm wrong but I think ALL jahns pistons are cast! very poor castings at that from what I've seen.

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello
That was my worry, I always thought the Jahns pistons were cast. The guy I am dealing with tells me they are forged from what he remembers. Have heard horror stories of them exploding and making a mess of engines. We'll see.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Bill, sent you a personal Email. Call me if you have any questions.

TomK

[Fran Preve]

I think your wrong goodwrench, Jahns was a big name piston maker in the 50's and '60's., and made Forged pistons.

[nilsenpeter63]

Looking at your picture of the car and it says "STROKER" to me.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Bill:

I went back and read your quote "However, what does matter is that I KNOW what I am getting for my money." from your second post in this discussion thread. If that's truly what you want, then my advise would be to begin with a "409 starter kit": good block, set of heads, crank, intake, maybe carbs, and then all the "flatwear" (oil pans, valve covers, timing cover, pulleys and so forth). Then you get to choose the pistons and con rods, the cam, the valves and springs and pushrods, and so forth. That way you KNOW what you are getting. You can either do this yourself (or with the aid of someone) or you can sub it out to someone with a lot of experience that you can trust (Tony Shaffer is just down the freeway from us). In the end, you have control over every decision, and you know exactly what you have.

And I bet Nils is right, you head down the stroker path. It's not that much more expensive than what I suggest above, with the exception of the machine work on the crank. Let us know what you think of that!

BTW, buying the parts piece by piece can be expensive, so that's why I recommend finding a "starter kit" like the one from Tom Collins (Wrench). I believe Tom has a commitment to that paricular set up, however. I shoud have bought it a long time ago, but I enjoy the hunt too much, and that would have been too easy :)

Cheers,
TomK

[BiscayneWilly]

Thanks for the super reply Tom, giving me a bit to think about. Say I go down the path of building a motor, would this Tony Schaffer fellow be able to assist in this task? Say maybe I contact him and explain what I want. Would it be possible he could build me a engine? OR, do I have to hunt down all the pieces and what you're saying is he is an option as an experienced 09 builder? The stroker idea sounds temping but my plan for this car is to make it pretty original with a reliable 409/409 type set up, 4-speed, restored interior, etc. Then, if ever I come across another nice Biscayne or even a Bel Air, pick it up and it would get the stroker. Just for a bit of info, my Biscayne.............that is the original paint in that picture! Looks a little different now as it is all in urethane primer :) Was a little old ladies grocery getter and it got driven to Church on Sunday's. If I remember right it had 89,000 original miles on it. Was a bare bones model for sure with rubber mat instead of carpet, no radio, non EZ-Eye windows, no power steering, had a 6 cylinder, powerglide and deluxe heater...........that was it. Anywho, what I think I am going to do is go ahead and give this Nebraska guy an offer for what I think is fair. Considering what I know about the engine and what I do not, we've come up with a price. It is a 1962 block, has 690 heads, the right intake, distributor of which I'd stuff with a Petronix kit, water pump will work, and there sounds like there is a bit of money in the machine work. From what he says an old drag racing engine builder did the work that knew 09's. We'll see what he says to my offer and then go from there. Currently hunting a bellhousing, clutch pedal assemby, and the rest of the goodies to go 4-speed. Have a Super T-10 that will go in the car as well. Rearend is of the 12 bolt posi nature and we designed and built our own 4-link set up for it complete with adjustable uppers, and panhard bar. Rearend is narrowed also with 285/70 BFG's stuffed under it :D Enough about the car, thanks for the help and I'll let everyone know how it goes.

[Fran Preve]

I've only heard of forged Jahns pistons, they were a popular brand in the late 50's/'60's and they made forged pistons for the 409.

[Mr Goodwrench]

cant argue fran I've only seen about three sets of jahns pistons one was for a 350 pontiac other two 409 the 09's were big ugly things that seemed to have a real tall deck height with a humungus slot across the top, they weighed half as much as the titanic it seemed and were cast. friend of mine bought the pontiac ones back in highschool 3 out of 8 had indentations on the top side right in the middle, jahns made them good and later we drilled a hole in that indentation, looked like the aluminum didnt come together??? casting flaw????? anyway it was real thin there. I remember the 09 pistons having alot of sand pits in various places as well. jahns might have made forged pistons but I garantee the sets I've seen were not.

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello all
Welp, the plot thickens on this mysterious engine. Sunday I sent him an offer for the engine and all the parts he and I discussed. No sooner than I had done that he comes back and says "Oh, I just figured out this is a stroker motor". ARGH, I suppose maybe it was part of his plan. Reel me in with the odd ball 409 motor, see what I'd offer and then divulge it is a stroker. Claims it is a 454 crank but he has no clue what rods, pistons, what was done to the crank or even if it IS a 454. Engine was built in 1985 and stored in a shed until 11/2002. He cannot prove or document what machine work was done to the engine nor what pieces were used in it. Sooooo, I am steering clear of this particular 409. Not my cup of tea, buying someone elses built engine that doesn't know much at all about it. My search continues. He did however tell me "what it would take" to bring this motor home.............big bucks for a unknown engine :? Thanks for all the help and I am sure I'll be lurking around the board sucking up information, that and asking questions :)

[Mr Goodwrench]

I wouls tell him to bite me!!! unless he wanted to scatter this engine to document all the parts, like crank forging number rods and pistons. 09's arent that hard to find.

[nilsenpeter63]

Biscainewilly
It depends on the money you like to spend of course, but the word stroker comes to mind again. And sinse your car not will be strictly original and, as I understand you will race it some times, a stroker engine will do it. Will look stock to, you know.

After my friends and I attended the convention I have been thinking of getting one to. One of the friends to is siriosly thinking about it. We even did made a call to Jack Gibb i california about this. We heard at the convention that he had some blocks for sale. We talked to him and come to the conclution that it most likely would bee cheaper to buy a long block from him, rather that build it ourself. We are thinking of supercharging it so that would be parts that would be obtained elsewhere. A stroker with 454 crank would be prized $8000.
Thecanadianpontiacguy also builds and sell stroker engines, check out his website on links. Not so much more expensive than the engine that you was thinking of buying. For what my opinon is worht

Regards
Nils
Norway

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello all
Thanks for the info and suggestions about going the stroker route. After reading so much and hearing about them, I think one would go nicely in my Biscayne. Everyone who sees or has seen it says it deserves a wild engine :) Shall continue my research and probably start contact other 09 builders next week when I get time. Also contemplating the idea of putting a T-56 tranny in the car too but haven't quite determined how much fun that would be.

[dq409]

Willy, A stroker engine can be driven on the road just as a stock engine can.

The wild part comes in when you put the peddle to the floor !!

When in Colorado visiting Michael, TMracing, he took me for a ride in his Belair powered by a mega HP Z11 stroker engine !!!

It actually drove and ran more streetable then my simi-built stock engine !!!

NO CRAP !!! IT was unbelievably street worthy !!! ,,, dq

[MRHP]

My 474 runs on pump gas, and has quite good street manners. When you stand on her, hold on! That baby really snarls. :brow I would recommend a stroker for lots of torque from 3000-5500. Thanks again Aubrey for the cam selection!

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq,We don't care how streetable TM'S 62 was, how did it go when he nailed it :D

[jim_ss409]

The only problem, with a stroker is that your car will smoke... Tire smoke :brow On those Jahns power slot pistons... I've never seen one but I've got an old magazine article on building a 409 stroker. I can't seem to find it right now but I remember that they used the power slot pistons and they said they were cast aluminum.

[BiscayneWilly]

Alright guys, you're helping me lean towards a stroker. That would be so cool, looks like a stock 09 from the outside, tricks are on the inside :brow I know they are very street-able engines from what I've read/heard. They just sound like TOO much fun to drive. I like Camaros and Chevelles and all the mainstream cars, don't get me wrong. Around here there are a bunch of 'em and they do get rather annoying. Need a ground thumpin', fire breathing stroked 09 to aggrivate them with on the street. Anyway.......that just might be the plan now. I do have a fresh 1968 396/350hp that has been waiting to be put together for quite a long time now. Perhaps it will get it's crank stolen over the winter if I find a 409 to work with.

[dq409]

dq,We don't care how streetable TM'S 62 was, how did it go when he nailed it :D



:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D


...

[2obnxs]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D


...

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[Fran Preve]

Give up on this "*******" engine. After what you've just written I don't believe a WORD this guy says about this motor. I wouldn't trust it, thus wouldn't even consider it for ANY price.

[BiscayneWilly]

Hello all
No worries, I have no interest in this mysterious engine anymore. Actually today, he (engine seller) sends me an e-mails saying he'll take $5850 for it :clap Yippee.........let it be someone elses problem. Thanks to all the help, info and suggestions from you guys on the board I will soon begin my hunt for a 409. Really leaning towards the stroker idea using a truck block as I have been told they are a little easier to find. Heads are gonna be the killer, 690's or 583's. Guess all I really need is a good block, set of hi-po heads (583 preferably), 2x4 intake and sheet metal pieces like oil pan, valve covers, etc. As stated previous, I have a 1968 396/350hp that we could "borrow" the crank from. Oh well........have to see what we can find. Any leads would be nice, I've got a few but haven't gotten around to checking them.

[b-d409]

On those Jahns power slot pistons... I've never seen one but I've got an old magazine article on building a 409 stroker. I can't seem to find it right now but I remember that they used the power slot pistons and they said they were cast aluminum.

The article Building Chevy's "Obsolete" 409 was in Hot Rod (not sure what month) 1975. I was just reading it at my dads tonight. You are correct in they stated that all Jahns pistons were cast.

Dan

[Fran Preve]

Learn something new every day, which is why I love this place.