True 409 car?

[GSthunder]

Hello everyone, I'm new here so I'll try not to ask anything stupid, but here goes. A friend of mine just bought a supposed 1963 409 4-speed Impala SS. I have checked the numbers I got from this great website and it would appear the engine is a QA (400 HP) single 4 bbl 409, but the correct number 1963 2X4 bbl intake and correct 1963 carbs were installed by someone along the way.The heads are the 690 heads too.
My question is there a way to tell if this SS originally came with this (or any) 409? My buddy plans on a full resto, but would like to make sure the car is what it's supposed to be.
By the way, it's a Ermine white car with Saddle interior.Needs alot of TLC.

[bobs409]

GSthunder,

If it is a QA 409, then that is the 400hp high performance engine. It would have the hi-po 690 heads. This should have the single Carter AFB 4 barrel and not a 2X4 set up.

To see if this engine is original to the car, check the stamping pad where the suffix code is for a portion of the cars VIN number.

[jim_ss409]

The car should have a factory tach, or at least a hole in the dash. Having a 4 speed is a good sign. 400 & 425hp engines weren't available with automatics. There are other things to look for such as a 3/8" fuel line and a return line as well. The 409 fan shroud is also different it's shorter. Look at photos of 409 engine compartments and you'll see the difference. The rad's different too. A book like "Chevrolet By The Numbers" is very helpfull for identifing casting numbers and date codes. It will tell you most everything you need to know. But keep asking questions here there are lots of knoledgable 409 guys who can answer most anything. Your friend got the good high performance engine with that car so it's worth the effort to check it out and see if it is the original engine. Good luck.:cheers

[GSthunder]

Thanks guys, I would love to be able to tell him it originally came with the engine thats in it now, not that someone took a normal 283 Impala SS and put that engine in it. I took all those numbers down , but left them with him so I'll have to recheck them.
There is no tach in the car now, but it may have been removed. Was the tach a bolt on the column piece or did it mount into the dash itself? I also remember someone mentioning a ballast resistor should be mounted on the firewall?
The car has what appears to be a Muncie trans( aluminum case anyway), but someone has butchered the floor for the shifter hole and fabricated some type of bracket/plate to mount the shifter to the trans.(???)
Thanks for all your help, I hope to be able keep you informed of the progress.

[jim_ss409]

The tach on the 63's was mounted into the dash directly above the steering column. If it's gone there will be a hole where it used to be. The aluminum case trans is a good sign. I think the 327's came with a iron case T 10 but part way through the year the T-10's were replaced by Muncies. I'm not sure about the placement of the ballast resistor on the 63's but I think it should be mounted to the firewall near the back of the drivers side cylinder head. I'm not sure about 63 but in 62 409 cars there was a H shaped fitting that joined the two heater hoses together it is about 10" or so from the heater. The factory put a pretty big hole in the floor and then covered it with a metal hump that screwed down. If somone installed a different shifter they may have made the hole bigger. If you look under the car again look at the centre section of the rear end if it has a "P" on it that means it is a posi. They were of course available with any engine but it's still nice to know. I'm not 100% sure on all this stuff but if I've made any errors someone will probably post a correction.

[dq409]

Even if it`s not a true 409 car ,,,,If your friend does a good resto job it will be worth alot more then a stock SBC car. Just do the correct work needed to make it as close as posible to the real thing. Besides no one needs to know its a clone until he goes to sell it,,,,,then be honest,,,,until then enjoy driving the `63 with a 409,,,,,,,dq

[SteveD409]

If it's a later 63 4 speed car it will have a reenforcing bracket where the rear upper control arm attaches to the frame.

SteveD

[GSthunder]

Well, I got to check the numbers I recorded the other day finally and I'm not sure it's good news. Here's what I came up with.

Stamped on the pad at the left front of the block -

B177321 (stamped just a little crooked) and then T0205QA

On the plate in the door jam - 31847T189191

If my guess is correct, shouldn't the 177321 on the block match the 189191 in the door jam? It looks as if someone has put a correct number 1963 400 hp 409 into a 1963 Impala SS ( perhaps a 283 car?). Then went thru the trouble of installing a correct number 1963 dual quad set-up.
If this is what turns out to have happened, I know my buddy will be disappointed,but will probably still redo the car as it will be soooooo cool when done.
Any ideas?

[SS425HP]

I'm of the opinion this #s correct stuff has gone too far. There is nothing on any part of the car that declares what motor was in it, other than a 6 or 8. The 1847 says it was an 8. Does he like the 409? If he does, he owns it, tell him to redo it and HAVE FUN. My car is not a #s correct car, and I don't care. Might take 25K for it. Has the 2 4bbls, 4 speed, and 4.56 posi. Looks good, and it's mine. I like it. That is what counts. Tell your friend to redo the car like HE WANTS. Then, he will like it.

That's my opinion. For what it's worth.:)

Fred

[dq409]

DITTO !!!!!

[SS425HP]

Hey, DQ, did you call California yet? Just wondering what you might have figured out.

Fred

[GSthunder]

Guys, I agree completely. To me, a 409 Impala SS rowing thru the gears at WOT as the carbs howl is close to a religeous experiance..
:p
I only asked about the numbers because my buddy isn't really a car guy and bought the car resently as an original 409 dual quad car.I'm sure I'll be helping him fix the car up and even asked him what he would do if it turned out not to be an original car. He said he would still rebuild it, just not to original specs.
I agree the numbers thing has gotten out of hand. I have an original 1970 Buick GSX 4-speed, but no longer take it to shows as I can't deal with the "Numbers Nazis" having fits that my fan shroud is the incorrect year or my Hurst shifter is an aftermarket one......:cuss

[SS425HP]

What part of New Jersey, Al? My father was from Ringoes, just south of Flemington. Have a lot of relatives over there. Have an uncle that had a Chevy dealership in Florence.

Fred

[GSthunder]

Fred, I go thru Ringoes often. There is a great Buick restoration supplier in Neshanic Station just on the other side of Flemington.
I live in Hamilton Twp. just outside of Trenton.

[dq409]

Fred,,, No ,,,but I`m trying !!! Can`t seem to find the time to sit down and do it. BUT,,,I will do it ASAP though,,,,,,dq

[bobs409]

Yep, not the original engine by those numbers. Only important to the purists but it does make the $$$'s go higher at resale if they match.

Have fun...


P.S. Find the guy with the Balitmore built car #177321 and tell him you have his engine. :D

[Hippie]

Originally posted by dq409
DITTO !!!!!

Double Ditto!!!!!!

There won't be a darn thing matching on my '62 when I'm done and I don't care. I'm even changing the color FROM the factory white over red to something else ! It's going to be a fire breathin' street beastie just like they was when I was a youngun'. When your brother rolls into cruise night in a 409 '63 SS it will turn all the same heads it would if all the numbers matched. :D

[GSthunder]

I'm sure my friend will still enjoy his car. I can't wait to see his eyes the first time he hammers it.....:eek:
By the way Bob, were you just kiddin about Baltimore? I thought all 409s were built in Tonowanda.

[bobs409]

The "B" should mean Baltimore. All engines were built at Tonowanda but the "B" is part of the cars VIN that is stamped onto it.

Come to think of it...I have a Baltimore car...Naw, it was a 6 originally. :cry