Z11 big cars

[Huggies]

Hi guys, I discovered your site by looking for information for Z11 cars on google

I live in Québec, Canada 5 mins away from montreal, I've been an impala/bel air lover since ever! I bought a 67 ragtop impala last summer from an original owner last summer and is the stylish car I've ever owned, IMO i'll never sell it but you never know...

The funny thing is, I was looking for a 62 or 63 at that time and I don't think I would have bought the 67 if it was a fastback or 2 door hardtop but the fact that it was a convertible made me fall in love with it...

I am now willing to buy a 62 2 door hardtop to build it as a LowRod car... In the look of Troy Trepanier's "Chicayne"... such a crazy car!

Anyways, I know that the Z11 package was offered in 62-63 with a production number of 57 cars in 63... but anyone know about the 62??? oh yes! and I also saw pictures of 62 bel air bubble top Z11... was the option offered on any big car?

I also know that the Z11 package on 62's was an aluminium front clip and bumper but I saw a 63 Z11 on the Barrett-Jackson auction and they said that the 63 had not just an aluminium front end, but doors and trunk lid also? Is it possible?

Thanks for your help!

[No409]

63`s didnt have alum doors and trunk lid. The guys who commintate the barrett jackson auctions are idiots

62 was all over the counter stuff, none to my knowledge build at the factory

[dadz409]

Hello,
The Barrett-Jackson Z-11 car was a documented actual former racecar with all the correct aluminum parts. Neither the 62 or 63 cars had aluminum trunks or doors. The lightweight parts included front fenders, front and rear bumpers, battery tray, fan shroud, misc support pieces and possibly the radiator support.
The code "Z-11" did not exist in 1962, so there were no 1962 Z-11's, just approx 20 COPO cars with a 420.6 cubic inch 13.5:1 compression engine with a 2 piece single or dual carb manifold.
The 1962 Lightweight Belair that I owned was delivered to the selling dealership complete in July 1962, turn-key ready to race. It was assembled at the factory or somewhere before the car was shipped to Rosenthal Chevrolet, I was told it was built in a finishing shop not on the passenger car assembly line. The car came with a number matching 409 engine, a window sticker just like any other car and 2 pages of Severe Service Duty parts.
The window sticker went with the 62 when I sold it in 1967, but I have the list of service duty parts that mention that the engine was not to exceed 421 cubic inches, possibly an agreement with Pontiac????
Good Luck, Gary

[Huggies]

Nice! thanks a lot guys! I think you know what your'e talking about! ;)

[dynoray]

Guys,there is an interesting car out there.a 62 Supersport with Z-11 equipment.goes by the name of Zintsmaster Chevrolet on the side.it;s white with red interior.from what i've read it was a late factory built car,like i said,this is what i have read about the car over the years.also Nicholson and Strickler both had 62 Impala Super Sports with Z-11 stuff.again not sure if those cars were factory built,but some articles i have read say so.Stricklers was the Old Reliable 3,also white with red gut.Dyno's i believe was also white,but i've never seen a color picture of it.hope this helps a little.Happy Holidays,Ray.

[dq409]

Dyno, Do some checking in the convention threads,,,,,,, dq

[bobs409]

Please see the Z-11 page I created:

http://www.348-409.com/z11.html

[dynoray]

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The Z-11's i mentioned here were probably 62 COPO cars.thanx,Ray.

[MK IISS]

Dave Strickler's 62 409s are confusing. He had more than one car. At the race I attended he was running his familiar white '62 Belair Spt. Cp. 409 in S/S and he also had a white '62 "Z11" equipped Impala there, running in F/X I think. If I remember correctly the Impala wasn't a SS. I can't remember the color of the Impala's interior but the Belair was aqua. Mr. Strickler also ran the Belair with the alum. front end at some races. I'm pretty sure the Belair was not a factory built "Z11" equipped car, don't know about the Impala. We all call '62s with alum. front ends Z11s but as Gary said it isn't really correct. Z11 was a '63 RPO option code.

[dynoray]

True,but i have an article showing Stricklers 62 Impala,white with red gut.looks like an SS from the picture,i see bucket seats and all.i talked to Jenkins years back,he said they got that car from the factory,and they used another aluminum front end on the belair.

[MK IISS]

I dug out a photo of Dave Strickler's '62 Impala F/X car and it definitely is a SS.

[dynoray]

Thanx MK II SS,i knew it was an SS Impala.maybe these 62's were not Z-11's,but they did run in B-FX that year.

[Huggies]

Thanks guys for your comments!


I have a friend that bought a 62 bel air bubble top this summer... He's putting in a 409 this winter.... he knows about Z-11 cars but I can't wait to talk to him to see if I now know more than him on that subject! thanks to the Z-11 page! ;)

[Fran Preve]

What Richard said. Also, the aluminum front ends, and Mark I engine parts (same as used on the Z-11 option), were released in June of 1962 for the NHRA Summer nationals. I can state for a FACT the engine used in the Z-11 option package (which was a 427) was NEVER built at the Tonawanda Engine plant as a 409. Also, the people I know, who have owned and/or restored Z-11's all say the aluminum front ends were over the counter parts, NOT installed on the assembly line, of ANY sort.

To be built on the assembly line (or off line) and shipped to the dealer there would have had to have been a window sticker, right?. And an option code, right?. And a price for that option, right?. And that code was?. And the price was?. There's been so much BS written about these 1962 cars it's almost impossible to CORRECT it. Richard and I were there in 1962, we know "the way it was", he knows about how a dealership worked, I know how the engine plant worked.

Gary, you would know the option code, and the price (it would be on the sticker). Your story ALMOST sounds plausible. Except Chevrolet didn't supply these aluminum front ends, or special intakes and heads to just anyone, there were VERY few, and the factories back then (all of them) parcelled them out to RACERS who had a PROVEN record. These were cars that were expected to be raced at major tracks and the NHRA and AHRA nationals. IF (note the capitol letters) and car was built and shipped to Roesenthal Chevrolet (where is that?) it would have had to have been with the OK of Vince Piggins or some other honcho from the high performance passenger car group. And FOR someone, who would have been an ESTABLISHED drag racer who would have been?, who?.

PS: I'd like to see copies of these 2 pages of "severe duty" parts, I really would. I have been following 409's and Z-11's for the past 20 years, your 'story" is a first.
And before any of you start thinking how many Chevy racers would use the supposedly lighter Belairs and Biscaynes you should see exactly how much lighter they were than the new-for 1962 Impala sport coupe. Hint, NHRA classified by the NADA shipping weight divided by the advertised horsepower. And Gary, the NHRA limited the allowed overbore to .060 in 1962, this means the cubic inches of a 409, overbored to the limit, would have been under 420 cubic inches. Simple huh. NHRA changed the limit to .030.

[dadz409]

Fran,
The 62 Lightweight that I was discussing was built in July62, delivered to Rosenthal Chevrolet, Arlington , Va in late July 62. A famous racer was the ordering customer, Rosenthal suppled many race cars from the mid-50's on. Check with Verne Frantz on his research. I saw the car the day it arrived at Jim's house and it was the real deal. I don't believe it was built on the assembly line ,but it was completed before it arrived at Rosenthal. It had a window sticker with the Service Package because when I bought the car, I had it in my hands. I traded the car back to Rosenthal in 1967, as a trade in on a 1967 Corvette. Car went to a new owner in Maryland or Pennsylvania in May 1967. I tryed to trace the car years later, but drew a blank.
I have provided Verne Frankz with the documentation and also several members of various Chevrolet clubs. I would like to provide you with this rare internal documentation. If you could e-mail be your address, I could make some nice clear copies for you. Dadz409@aol.com
Fran, you are the engine genius, but there are few things I believe happened without most of us ever hearing about in 1962-63. My memory has faded somewhat in 40years and some of what I remember may be questionable, but this car existed. Rosenthal Chevrolet had big internal connections, sponsored racers and was able to get some really strange cars on their lot in the 60's. They are still in business all over the DC area.
Regards, Gary

[Quickshift409]

I think the B/FX Chevys that ran in 1962 were 327 FI and not 409 or 427 equipped.
QS409

[MK IISS]

Shan: I think they did too. I'm not sure though, what FX class Dave Strickler's Impala was running in when I saw it. There was also a match race I saw, in which Mr. Strickler ran a Belair with alum. front end and hi-rise two piece intake. He was running in the 11s. Dave Strickler's girfriend was Ammon R. Smith's daughter. He had a large dealer inventory to build his race cars from.

[Fran Preve]

Gary, thank for your reply. As I said in my post, these aluminum front ends were in limited supply, like about 18 (from my sources). They went to connected racers, or dealer, or most probably both (known racers with connected dealers). I have my doubts that the factory would build the cars, absolutely they would have been built "off line". And any REAL racer who was going to get the aluminum package would have to have the talent/connections to build the car. I'm gathering you had a two door sedan with an aluminum front end with the Z-11 style heads and intake, who am I to say you didn't?. But such a car would be a pure race car, and I myself have problems with someone driving such a beast on the street (if you raced it enlighten us as to the times you turned.

I'd love for some of us to sit down with our papers and documents and recollections and go over and over everything. I'm a skeptic, I have to be because I'm a historian, and that means I have to deal in FACTS as much as possible. I ALWAYS say whether or not something I comment on is based on FACT or on my best knowledge from MORE THAN ONE SOURCE. I also apply a little LOGIC, and much of what I read doesn't. That "assembly line" built 62 Impala SS (Zip something) is a car that I would have to see a whole bunch of confirming paperwork on before I'll buy into it, could it be?. In MY OPINION, no, but that's just MY OPINION, and I have good reasons for it. Could it be?. Surely could, anything is possible, a REAL 1968 Z-28 convertible just passed the auction block at a million bucks, ASSEMBLY LINE BUILT!. But the I heard about this one 15 years ago. But the car was built for a guy in Chevrolet who had the "horsepower" to have it done, and the car (now restored) had a TON of documentation to back it up. Almost all these "special" cars have no documentation to back them up. I could go on and on.

NEVER, EVER, EVER refer to me as an "engine genius", EVER!. I'm am a recognized authority on Chevrolet big block engine production, that's it. And I'm soon to be 60, so I have to use my rapidly deteriorating memory like most others my age. Ask MKIISS, he's corrected ME many times, and I him, funny what you come up wityh when you can talk RATIONALLY on a subject with others of a similar bent.

This site has been a TREMENDOUS help to me, as they say, ya learn something new every day!. Email me at ...franpreve1@aol.com.......and send me anything you think would be of interest, I would REALLY appreciate it!.

Fran Preve
2585 Whitehaven Rd
Grand Island, NY 14072

include your Email address.

[MK IISS]

Fran: I'm sure you are familiar with the famous 1957 Chevy "Black Widow" NASCAR race cars. I think 7 were built in a joint effort between Chevrolet's assembly line and it's SEDCO (Southern Engineering and Development Company) division. Maybe Chevy did a similar thing with these mysterious 409s we keep hearing about.

[dadz409]

Fran,
I haven't had good luck scanning and sending documents over the web, that can be read, so I am going to burn some nice copies and mail them.
The fellows name who purchased the car new was I believe Jim Thornton, spell on last name may be wrong. His family owned a large metal fab. and welding firm. He had good connections within GM and I am all but positive he ended up in 1966 with one of, if not the only one, 1966 Corvette L-88 big tank coupes destined for Sebring. I saw under the hood once and as I recall the aircleaner fitted to the hood for fresh air, like the 67's. He crashed this car and it sat in his garage for years. Unfortunately, Jim was killed in the late 60's in an auto crash, driving too fast on wet roads. As high school students the bus would drop us off in front of his house, I was thrown out of his yard a number of times, but ever so often he would grit his teeth and bear my questions. This is how I got any information about the car, and I asked to buy it if it ever came up for sale. Jim raced this 62 at Old Dominion Dragway in the DC area, I believe in Maryland. He raced at other tracks but I don't know where, he claims turning 12.6's and setting a track record in 62 at Old Dominion. Jim told me once that the car came with 2x4 carburation when delivered, but he recieved a box from his sources with an experimental single Holley 2 piece aluminum manifold that he always refered to as the NASCAR manifold. The one statement he always made and I can hear as if today was, "I was never beatin at the track or on the street, especially by any multi-carb setup". He hated 2x4 or 3x2 setups and let everyone know.
Up until now I have been relaying what I was told, what I know for sure was that Jim sold me the car in Nov 65, it had the original 409 motor with 2 piece manifold and Holley 4150 carb. Factory semi-tube headers, exactly like Z-11's, exhaust came straight back from motor, exited in front of rear tires. The car came with Cowl induction, but Jim had changed the car to pick up the air from the outside headlight buckets. It had no w/s wipers, I added these, no horn, Jim had added this, no radio or heater, you couldn't have heard the radio if it had one. White with Aqua interior, it still had the aluminum bumpers, aluminum fan shroud and battery tray. Jim had hit a snow bank, apparently ruining the aluminum front fenders and hood. They were replaced with steel. A strange thing was that the car was never equipped with hood hinges, it had a crud pivot welded to the corner where the hinge would have been, no hood locking mechanism, pins were affixed to the radiator support. I think the pins were added later, but I have no idea how the hood stayed shut.
Like I said before, I traded the 62 on a new Corvette in 67. I went looking for this car about a year later and drew a blank. Bob Rosenthal didn't like handling used race cars, so apparently this sale was under the table. I knew his son from high school, so I asked for his help, all we found out was the buyer, they thought was from Pennsyvania. I had some pictures of this car, but when my dad passed away in 1983 my sisters threw all the negitives away unless we were in them.
So not much of this is provable, but I believe the paperwork I will send will be of interest. You're a fine historian, I've read some of your stuff, but color outside the lines a bit (assume a few unproveables) and you may find that some of these performance era mysteries are answerable. Great hobby we have. Sincerely, Gary

[Fran Preve]

Richard: SEDCO was for a different reason, and, what do you think about this story?, interesting huh. And Chevy didn't more and different things for circle jerks than they did for us dirt bag drag racers. Put the two in perspective and you'll see what I mean.

Gary: Thank you, we'll learn how to scan and send attachments together (I'm picking up a Epson scanner today). I'm waiting anxiously.

PS: I was involved a year or two ago when some people wanted my help on verifying 1966 L-88 Corvettes. 'nother story.

I'll respond more tomorrow (it's Monday night now). Your story makes NO sense whatsoever, but it's got some interesting points in it that perk up my ears and make me ponder, ponder, ponder. Could this story be true?, or (more probably) parts of it?.

[MK IISS]

Fran: I didn't mean SEDCO in particular, I ment a company like SEDCO. You know, like the companies that built the BOSS 429 Mustangs or the 427 Thunderbolts for Ford. Another example would be the '63 Pontiac 421 Tempests. The Tempests were not built on Pontiac's assemble line but by by outside firm. Pontiac referred to them as "factory authorized."

[Fran Preve]

Richard: I know what you meant, kinda. The SEDCO deal was a one of deal in 1957, then the Kar Kraft Mustangs, the Hurst Hemi Mopars, the T-bolts, were built in larger quantities. I believe the 1963 Z-11 cars were built at a Chevy assembly plant, off line. We built EXACTLY 50 engines to the Z-11 assembly #, and I beieve there were only 50 cars built to the Z-11 RPO (the 57 number in my opinion is bogus and can be attributed to the "Arlington" letter Paul Prior replied to a few years later). NHRA reqired 50 cars, Chevy built 50 cars. As far as there being a way to build 1962 cars "off line", there was no exact number to be built. Most, if not all were "retro fit" to existing cars, and opposed to the Z-11 cars there was NO RPO for these 1962 cars thus no way to price the "option" so in my opinion, unless I'm shown factory PROOF I'll continue to assume these aluminum front end cars were all built from factory parts but not at an assembly plant on or off line.

Again, the 1962 aluminum front end Impala SUPPOSEDLY built on the assembly line hasn't been officially verified. If it were built at an assembly plant, what did the window sticker say?. How much was the aluminum front end?. How much was the engine?. And yes, COPO cars DID have a window sticker reflecting a price, they ALL did, so an assembly plant built car shipped to a dealer. Is it possible?. Anything is POSSIBLE, but the story had better be backed up somehow, and not just based on "I remember.......................".

The Pontiacs were factory experimental, I think that made a difference, and I assume your talking only of the TEMPESTS, not the '63 "swiss cheese" cars which I believe WERE built on the asembly line. But think about this, this was 1963 when Chevy built thier Z-11's on an assembly line at the same time. Chevy "shopped" their Nova's out to Bill Thomas race cars in California. that a help?. Good points as usual...............................

[MK IISS]

Fran: Thanks for your reply. I have lots of ideas. It's just most of them aren't any good.

[Fran Preve]

BS, you've brought of MANY good points, I know, by how many times I had to eat crow. The more we debate/discuss the more we learn, there's no such thing as a stupid question. You made me think many times, and I hope I did you. Take care.

[oil4kids]

Its pretty well known in the Dick Harrell circles that HArrell got his black 62 Impala with the steel front end and was shipped the alum fenders and hood by freight

[Fran Preve]

I should have replied to this sooner. I got the info from Dadz, it was factory sheets for the late 1962 "service package", NOT the aluminum front end/ "Z-11 style" A/FZ stuff. Detailed all the parts needed and parts numbers.

[Mr.Jimmy]

:brow so tell us mor Fran!!!!! :brow

[grumpy]

Fran,
Jim raced this 62 at Old Dominion Dragway in the DC area, I believe in Maryland. He raced at other tracks but I don't know where, he claims turning 12.6's and setting a track record in 62 at Old Dominion.


12.6 is a terrible time for Old Dominion Dragway. Old Domonion is an 1/8 mile track.

See here (http://www.olddominionspeedway.com/OD_Dragstrip_Main.html)

[dadz409]

Jim,
There wasn't any such thing as 1/8 mile drags before the 70's so if Old Dominion started in 1954, the track was the standard for the time 1/4 mile drag strip. On their webpage they mention many big names of drag racing, Sox & Martin etc, who I don't believe ever did 1/8 mile racing. The Fairfax, Va area was a hot bed of drag racing back in the 60's, I raced with a Pontiac racing team, Burr Racing, that held several national records. Lived in Vienna and Baileys Cross Roads, we had to do a bit of traveling to drag strips in the 50's & 60's. Are there any close to Fairfax now?? Gary

[grumpy]

Having been to Old Dominion many times, as I still live in the Fairfax,VA area, there is no room at the end of the current track to have a 1/4 mile track with the necessary shut off area.

Now, as a good detective, I must ask, was there an oval track next to the drag strip as there is now. The drag strip could have been moved and shortened to accomodate the oval track.

[grumpy]

I must take exception to your comment of no 1/8 strips before the seventies. When I lived in NY, we would often go to Islip Speedway on LI in the 63-67 era. This was an 1/8 mile strip and I remember TV Tommy Ivo there with his dragster.

[Quickshift409]

I think most of the tracks in the first part of the 1960's were 1/4 mile but as the cars got faster in the later 1960's there just wasn't enough shut down area so they were changed to 1/8 mile. Here in the Midwest where it's flat most tracks are 1/4 mile.

QS409

[dadz409]

Jim,
I had heard years ago that Old Dominion closed down in the late 60's, but it's possible they just moved it. There was no oval track when I remember going. My memory is fading somewhat, but as I recall the shutdown area was short. Seems as though at the end was a farmers field and that the highway wrapped around close, starting jokes about going on home if you ended up on the road. I don't remember any 1/8 mile tracks in the area, but I left the area in 1968. Gary

[dadz409]

Bob,
I believe I am confusing OD with a track that was just across the MD/VA line. We used to take 95 north into Maryland, just outside the circumferenial highway 495. Went there many times, but to Old Dom very few. I sure don't remember any 1/5 mile tracks, seems as though that would be ringing some bells. Gary

[grumpy]

old dominion (manassass) was a fifth mile track in the beginning. in the early days,

I just can't imagine saying,

"Hey, what does that thing do in the fifth?"

[walkerheaders]

Bob,
I believe I am confusing OD with a track that was just across the MD/VA line. We used to take 95 north into Maryland, just outside the circumferenial highway 495. Went there many times, but to Old Dom very few. I sure don't remember any 1/5 mile tracks, seems as though that would be ringing some bells. Gary

wish i could figure out when and where you were. the 6 maryland tracks were at the time, [Aquasco] (southern Prince Georges county) [Budds creek] (way southern md and now known as MIR) [Capitol] (just off 495 in central md.) [75-80] in northern md. frederick county. [Mason Dixon] in northwestern md. and [Cecil County] out in northeastern md.

a lot of tracks for such a small state only aquasco is not still alive.

[region rat]

Concerning the Zintsmaster car. When I talked to John Zintsmater in the 80's I specically asked him about the intake and at that time he told me it was 1 piece meaning 409,409hp. He told me the alminum was on the car when his dealership received it and they pulled the motor and shipped it to Bill Thomas in Annaheim,Ca. for super stock treatment. After being disqualified, possibly at Indy, they pulled the front off and hung it up in the body shop and replaced it with a steel front. I saw the car a year after he sold it and don't recall seeing the Z parts on it then but they are present now. Not sure if John is still alive but I'll try and contact him. He got the car after talking to a friend heavy into Ford racing and advised him to make calls to Chevrolet about improving they're racing performance. It sounded to me like he run the car to bost sales at his dealership in Kokomo. I remember him saying the wheel covers were still in boxes in the trunk. I might be able to contact the guy that went through the motor when it was sold. He said after sitting in a heated warehouse since 63 the worst damages to the motor was rust packed in the water jackets. Bob