1963 chevrolet frontend overhaul [Archive]

chevy_belair63

02-01-2005, 09:19 PM

Ok i started months ago on the overhaul and finaly got both sides assembled. Ok question is i took orignal frontend and before i broke everything down took measurements since its still the factory alignment since the car was never aligned after being bought or changed up. ok i put the tie rods on each side to the exact measurement as the old was. i hooked them up. passenger side the front of the drum is toe in about 4 to 5 degs. driver side which i just hooked up recently is toe out bout the same or more. now is it possible the gear box isnt centered or what should i check. before i hooked up the driverside drum. i had 2 full turns and just short of half a turn from center to either full left or full right. now with the drum installed its 2.4 turns to the right from center. but only 1.2 turns to the left from center. i could use some information on what to check before i go bout messing with the tierods when the weather clear up.

chevy_belair63

02-01-2005, 11:09 PM

ok i just checked and i now know im going to have to re align the frontend. ok im going with 670x15 biasply corvette tires.(1963 corvette tires) on the front want to know what would be a good toe in/out would be a good starting point between the 1/32-3/32 toe in toe out per wheel.

I also want to know with the alignment tool how would i go bout aligning the frontend. just want to be sure the way im thinking is fully right or not.

bobs409

02-02-2005, 08:25 AM

I don't know how many here would be able to answer those questions. As for alignments, it's best just to take it somewhere that has the equipment to do it right.

If you really want to attempt this and have the tools to do it, I believe the shop manuals have some specs listed.

JimKwiatkowski

02-02-2005, 09:25 AM

I've been doing Front End work for over 30 years so I can help you out.First off you need to correct your turning radius.If you have 2.4 turns one way and 1.2 the other way you have something bent or installed wrong.Try this turn your steering so the pitman arm is pointing straight ahead.and adjust each tie rod till the tire is pointing straight ahead you should have 1/16 to 1/8 inch total toe.camber should be +1/2 to 0 deg,caster should 1/2 more pos on the right side

chevy_belair63

02-02-2005, 06:11 PM

its centered right now. just wasnt sure if something else could cause it. cause both wheels when i put the driverside wheel straight the passenger side was also. but i guess what im going to do is get the alignment tool they got at harbor freight and im going to set both wheels to 2/32 each. that way im between the factory curb specs of 1/32-3/32

JimKwiatkowski

02-02-2005, 06:23 PM

These tools are fine to get your toe in the ballpark,but to get a toe setting it should be taken to a alignment shop.

chevy_belair63

02-02-2005, 06:27 PM

well i replaced everything and repainted everything knowing them will get scratches and mess everything up. so i just want to get it as close as i can to where it wears decent enough. not going to be driving the car that much anyways.

chevy_belair63

02-03-2005, 01:32 AM

Im thinking 2/32 toe in per wheel would be a good starting point. that way only got so much to go since im halfways between the toe in specs

chevy_belair63

02-06-2005, 05:22 AM

ok earlier today i took and put the driverside tierod to the same lenght as the passengerside ( 20") hooked it up and now i got 4.5 turns from center to full left and 4.5 turns from center to full right. so its centered. and both are toed in about 2/32

Gus68

02-06-2005, 02:13 PM

Hey guys!!! I work at a dealership and have done alignments, now don't get me wrong, Im not an expert and I'm not saying your not competent (I cant even spell). I think after you get the front end as close as you can you should still take it to an alignment shop and have it done. If you dont trust them find a shop somewere that is "cool" and likes old cars and hot rods or get in good with someone at a shop and see if they would let you help or atleast watch. Even if you don't drive it every day it would make a world of difference. I have a chevelle that I drag race frome time to time, I drove it and raced it for many years with the old stock front suspension stuff, then I went through the front end and had it aligned (thats all i did to it) then went back to the track and picked up 2 tenths!!!! The only difference was the front stuff and an alignment!!! It makes a HUGE difference.
Just my 2 cents.

dq409

02-06-2005, 02:27 PM

Put those "1963 corvette tires" on the "409 rims" and take it to the alignment shop as Gus and others said !!!

You may get it close but never correct on your own,,,dq

chevy_belair63

02-06-2005, 11:46 PM

very funny dq. im not even running factory style rims.

dq409

02-07-2005, 12:39 AM

The way I have always done it is to use a measureing tape and set the toe in about a 1/4 inch, rpom center to center of the tires. Then drive it to the line-up shop and have them set the caster and camber,,,,,

chevy_belair63

02-07-2005, 01:34 AM

well its already seat. 2/32 toe in per wheel. both tie rods are 20 inches from end to end, idler arm and pitman arm are straight back. so everythings in line like it should be. and if it just happens to wear too much then i will take it and have it aligned by a shop but im not going to take it there just to let my 11 months of frontend overhaul work in restration be shot to **** cause they scratch things up. or dent things.

MK IISS

02-07-2005, 11:10 AM

you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd
you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd
you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd
wack-a-do, wack-a-do, wack-a-do

SS425HP

02-07-2005, 12:03 PM

If you have a nice car, and if it is a reliable shop, they will take care of it as if it was their own. What's the set of tires going to cost you? Sounds like being pound wise and penny foolish to me. Ask some others in your area that have nice cars, or restored cars, where they take theirs. And do it.

Fred

chevy_belair63

02-07-2005, 08:32 PM

well thats kinda hard cause all the people i know down here swaped rack and pinion steering into their car. plus i called around and the shops that was recommended by some speed shops down here and they told me " up date that old **** cause no one deals with that crap anymore" so i guess ill just keep it like it is.

Tire are going to be 670-15 corvette tires on front on 15x5 cragar ss rims, and 1000x15 radir M/T slicks on 15x10 chrome revesal rims out back. but first i have to find some spring lifts like it has on the back cause the front when i set it down yesterday sits 3 inches lower than the back and thats with stock dia tires on it. wouldnt look good with 2 inch taller tires out back than stock raising it up to 5 inches lower up front than back.

total would be around 1,140 including tires and rims. 500 for the repo slicks 224 for the front tires last time i checked, and 115 a piece for mag rims, and 98 for the revesals.

dq409

02-08-2005, 01:49 AM

Sorry belair ,,, but i think you are foolish.

You don`t want a qualified alignment person to set your front end correctly because of paint?
But your willing to ruin a set of tires instead?
Once your tires set a wear pattern thats the way they will wear til they are gone.

AND you are running a mixed set of bias ply with radial slicks?

You`re asking for big trouble !!

Your car your problems.

Why ask if you can`t listen,,,dq :dunno

Impalaguru

02-08-2005, 02:37 AM

63BA, I've got some old "twist in" spring spacers I could make you a heckuva deal on!! :brow Does Air-Lift still make an air bag for the 58-64 Chevy rear springs?
Ross

bobs409

02-08-2005, 07:58 AM

I can't believe there are no alignment shops in your area that won't work on a 63 Chevy. I wouldn't let anyone that tells me to "update that crap" touch my car. You must be looking in all the wrong places.

Find a shop that's been in business for a long time, not the chain type like Monroe and other crap. :p Have you looked in the yellow pages? Avoid places that have nothing but "kids" working for them, they most likely know nothing except ricers and could care less about your car. lol

As for damaging paint, tell them upfront to be careful and insist that you be able to stay with the car and wait for it. I've seen what some mechanics will do to a car on a test drive, it won't happen to any of my cars! If they test drive it, go with them. Any good alignment shop shouldn't mind if you wait for it. It's a good idea to be seated in the car when they set the specs anyway. This adds the appropriate weight for a more precise alignment. (your in it when it's driving, you should be in it when it's being set) Only a well seasoned alignment shop would even know that I'm guessing. :p

jester

02-08-2005, 08:58 AM

I'm thinking this is penny wise and pound foolish..
So you touch up the paint when there done . It's not like you need to have it aligned everytime you put gas in it. Get it aligned and over with. :clap

JimKwiatkowski

02-08-2005, 09:36 AM

Like I said at the start of this tread I've been doing front end alignments for over 30 years.Your tie rods and adjustment sleeves are new,you should be able turn your adjustment sleeves by hand.If they don't take some duct tape and wrap tie rod adjustment sleeves to protect them.Us front end tec's are smart enought to do a good job and respect our customers vehicles.

Gus68

02-08-2005, 03:23 PM

Hey man!! Did you know that if you align the front end (either by your self or a shop) and you change the ride hight, you will have to have it aligned again?

64ss409

02-08-2005, 04:19 PM

Also raising or lowering the rear end changes the castor angle on the front.

Back to the alignment shop.
Ron

chevy_belair63

02-08-2005, 05:23 PM

Ok the 1000x15 radir M/T slicks are just that 4 ply nylon slicks, and the 670 bfgs im going with are 4 ply rayon bias ply. not mixing radial and biasply.

Also yes i checked the yellow pages. one place dose but when i went over their not the orignal owner, and nothing but kids work their, plus the tie rods are new but the adjusting sleeves are orignal and you need a wrench to set it. thats why i know the paint will get scratched. when i was adjusting it the wrench sliped and red paint was showing through i had to wire brush the whole thing to primer and re paint it. not going to take the chance.

plus not going to drive the car much. probly wouldnt put 200 miles on the car in a months time. hell maybe a 3 month period.

Impalaguru

02-08-2005, 06:13 PM

CDNpontiac409guy

02-08-2005, 09:03 PM

You might try and contact Jeff Lilly restorations. They are in Texas, not sure how far from you, but they might be able to work on your front end and give you the results that you want. They are a HIGH END, full service restoration shop. This is the type of shop that color sands and buffs inner fender wells!!! Not joking, there are pics of this on the website! I don't think they would stand for scratched tie rods either! www.jefflilly.com
Ross

VERY VERY nice stuff, Guru !

Then again.... give me a customer that doesn't grind me to the nickel... to the minute... and then STILL chisel me down.... HECK YEAH ! NO QUOTE FOR TIME ?????
HAAA HEEE HAAA !!!!
Forget the $40+ an hour they're getting.... I'd do it THAT for $20 !!!!!!!!!

Oh well
In the next life maybe

Impalaguru

02-08-2005, 10:31 PM

I can imagine EXACTLY what you're talking about!! When I was studying auto restoration we had a project where we were to give an imaginary customer a quote to restore his model A. Not very easy.

We also had to keep track of what we worked on in lab in a log book. Had to turn it in at the end of every week for grading. We also had to take pictures of what we did. Sometimes hard to get everything.

My instructors had all either owned their own shops or had worked in them and they said the paperwork end of things was always their least favorite.

Ross

chevy_belair63

02-08-2005, 10:34 PM

do they do interior and exterior restration??? cause looks like they do a good job with paint and body work and the interior dosent look too bad but just wanted to compare their price to the interior shop down here that is going to charage me 2500 to restore the whole interior including repainting of the dash and pillars in fawn laquor.

Impalaguru

02-08-2005, 11:15 PM

They sure do. There is a tab to click on, at the webpage, for interiors. I'm sure they could install your upholstery kit and paint your dash, etc.
Ross

chevy_belair63

02-09-2005, 01:49 AM

Ok well i got some pictures and i guess ill post some here before i put them in the photo album

Impalaguru

02-09-2005, 02:27 AM

Pretty nice lookin ride, 63BA :clap Post some vintage photos if you got 'em!!! Love those old photos. My avatar is actually the graduation picture of the 3rd owner of my car, taken in 1977. I'm a young guy so I missed out on things, back when.
Ross

chevy_belair63

02-09-2005, 02:38 AM

i plan on it. i got one of the interior back in 1968/69 before the steering wheel was replaced and the underdash gauges was put in or tach. basicly factory stock still.

chevy_belair63

02-09-2005, 02:42 AM

front is 3 inches lower than the back im going to see if i can find the spring lifts like i got on the back i had the twist in on the front but want the ones in the back that are like straps and i think im going to raise the front up just 1 inch over stock then let the air out of the air shocks in the back then with the 29.25 inch dia tires out back will give it a fairly good rake compared to now where its about a 4 inch difference between front and back.

jester

02-09-2005, 05:14 AM

you better check the instalation of the that link. From the pic, it looks like it is way to loose.

CDNpontiac409guy

02-09-2005, 12:46 PM

belair63.... You want to use 29.5" tall rear tires ?
There is VERY VERY little chance that they will clear th front edge of the wheel opening... ESPECIALLY if you really DO have the rear suspension raised.
Somehow I doubt that you want to cut the body on that car :dunno

If you really DO have the rear of that car up in the air... Do you realize the colossal collection of problems that causes :? ?

(1) yes, the rear axle is pulled forward into the wheel well

(2) the panhard bar pulls the entire rear housing over to the left side of the car

(3) because the lower control/trailing arms are mounted at an angle, pointing to eachother, the rear axle housing will actually twist in relation to the direction of the car, and cause the car to "dog track"... with the rear of the car driving into the curb

(4) The "unnatural" upward angle of the lower control arms is counterproductive to traction. This was covered in the "bolt hole" thread. This condition will also cause a distinctive "wobble" in the rear of the car when going over bumps in the road.

(5) The pinion in the differential will point down at a MUCH greater angle than where it should be. Will cause a constant "shudder" in the driveline, especially at low speeds. U joint life will also be reduced.

(6) Maybe the most obvious problem.... it makes the car look......well.... :doh

Oh, and about the 29.5" tall tires. While the engine is just a 283 ( 301/327 ? ), and the car is just an automatic... the excessivily tall tires are absolutely destructive to the rear axles. If you had torque, those little 17 splines would last about 8 minutes :eek: ( not to mention the bearing caps onthe differential ).

Just some thoughts

dq409

02-09-2005, 01:27 PM

you better check the instalation of the that link. From the pic, it looks like it is way to loose.

In Belairs defense,,, :? I don`t think he has the upper bushing on yet,,,

This is the sway bar you are pointing out ,,yes?,,,dq

Also belair ,,you want to use raising blocks in your springs ???:eek:

You must be nutz,,,,, :D those will give you a very unstable ride and ruin what ever is left of your springs,,, and what Aubrey said,,,,

Your car ,,,, your way,,,,

threeimpalas

02-09-2005, 06:32 PM

Take it to a professional alignment shop. I don't care if you're afraid of scratching the paint, DO IT. Tape the wrench surfaces if you're really concerned about them not being careful. Why you seem to be so worked up about it when it appears you've got other bolt heads, nuts, and frame chunks only half painted, I don't know. :? Hell, if the paint does get slightly chipped, do some touch up after you get the car back home!

Regardless, take it to a shop so they can properly align ALL aspects of the suspension. (ie: Caster, Camber, Toe-in). You might be able to get it "close", but you won't be able to get it "right".

chevy_belair63

02-09-2005, 09:54 PM

dq409

02-09-2005, 10:52 PM

ok pictures were taken before i finshed putting the sway bar in the powersteeing slave cylinder wasnt installed yet, and the reasion why the bolts are painted looking forwards is its kinda hard to paint something when you got jack stands in the way. i already resprayed that, and touched up all scratches.

Also i dont know where you got your information from but the car had 200 miles put on it with the 3 inch lifts in the back and no vibration from drivetrain at low speeds or high speeds, dosent dog track, dosent woble, dose bounce up and down more than before, but not left to right.

WELL THERE YOU GO GUYS !!!
WERE JUST WAISTING INK !!!!

I guess Aubrey don`t know squat !!:rofl

Why even ask us?? You all ready had your mind made up on what you were going to do!! :dunno

BTW,,, Nice welds on the headers,,,, and how many rattle cans of paint did it take to do your work???? :rolleyes:

chevy_belair63

02-09-2005, 11:04 PM

im not saying Aubrey dont know anything, im just saying must not be true for every car, cause surely if what he said applies to all cars mine would have a driveshaft vibration, or dogtracks,ect

also aubrey 29.5" slicks will fit on the back. that will only be 1.15" added towards the front part of the wheel well and 1.15" to the back part. Already measured and it will fit.

If the fender prevents me from getting the wheel on i already deisded to take and deflate the tires and then smash the top down some and then put it on then reinflate it.

Also the welds were done using a pinpoint, propane heating torch and coathanger wire.

chevy_belair63

02-09-2005, 11:06 PM

also used a total of 8 primer cans, 12cans semi gloss 1200 deg engine black, 5 cans of high gloss 1200 deg engine black, 2 cans of rusttough canary yellow, 1 can of aluminum.

CDNpontiac409guy

02-09-2005, 11:57 PM

I'm sorry belair63... my previous post was incomplete...I apologize for the omission...

With the rear lower control/trailing arms at that extreme angle, wheel hop will be un-stoppable ( but then again, with a 283/301/327, that likely will not ever be a concern )

Here's the result when the car is at the correct ride height, and there's a big-horse 409 4 speed :
http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/movies/64pont2.MPG

MK IISS

02-10-2005, 12:00 AM

This is an all too familiar pattern used by this individual for over two years on another forum. By this I mean, the man has an established history of asking for help when he has absolutely no intention of following any sensible, knowledgeable, and sound advice from members who have much more intellegence and experience than he posses. In other words he has a predetermined conclusion he is going to follow no matter what... even before he asks the question. Don't take my word, ask others, or just sit back and watch.

jester

02-10-2005, 12:16 AM

It's only a matter of time before you guys realize that if you don't offer advise you can't get burned. :takethat

chevy_belair63

02-10-2005, 01:09 AM

mk II ss i just asked a simple question, i got the answers and i used my best judgement. now if you want to go on and on bitching about the choices i make when you should be working about yourself then go right ahead. im done with the frontend. im not changing a thing. took the car out today and drove straight, stoped straight, turned fine, and was just like it was with the old frontend just new.

Now yes i might take and pull the 3, 1" spring lifts out of the rear coils but i still have to think about that one. i might just take and put 3, 1" spring lifts in the front and level the car out again.

walkerheaders

02-10-2005, 07:43 AM

[QUOTE=MK IISS] Don't take my word, ask others, or just sit back and watch.

I'm sitting back and I'm watching...........can't believe my eyes. :dunno

some of the most intelligent guys i've ever known are genuinely trying to help this member. only to have there wisdom fall on deaf ears. :?

Mr belair63, these guys are steering you straight, you may want to give what they're telling you some second thought. as for me, i learned quite a bit from they're replies. but then, I'm just a dumb old man who's never had or raced a 63

MK IISS

02-10-2005, 08:23 AM

belair63: Ain't bitchin'. Just sittin' back, watchin', readin' havin' fun.

"...the smaller hose with the worm gear clamp on it has the smaller screw in fitting that goes into the powersteering control valve, and the screw on fitting has the bigger screw in fitting that goes into the powersteering control valve."

"...and 1000x15 radir M/T slicks on 15x10 chrome revesal rims out back."

This is great stuff ! !

jester

02-10-2005, 11:30 AM

I have 245/60 15 on 10" rims ( I think there 10's) the tail of my 64. They fit so tight that I need to remove the shock to get the tire off the drivers side. :dunno
Buy the way, they do rub on the exhaust

CDNpontiac409guy

02-10-2005, 11:54 AM

:rofl :rofl !

If this "soylent orange" ( maybe it's ... it's PEEEPULLL ? ) didn't cause a 30 second delay on every page view... I agree, this WOULD be great stuff :doh

In reply to Richard's post, belair63 wrote: "if you want to go on and on bitching about the choices i make when you should be working about yourself then go right ahead. im done with the frontend. im not changing a thing."

I feel compelled to ask...
WHO does this guy think he is ? I mean first of all, one has to try and de-code his rhetoric... such as above, the use of the word "working"... after reading it over, I THINK he meant to say "worrying". But, maybe not :dunno .
Secondly, WHO does he think he's talking to ? The guys who have taken their time to reply to his questions, have been repeatedly dis-respected by belair63's comments.
Enough already :takethat

I personally have not taken offence to belair63. However, I believe his constant "second guessing" and outright dis-counting" everything that he should learn, has become a little old.

Bob ( boss man ), you KNOW I have tried not to get into this kind of thing ( I have my own set of problems that I'm trying to correct )....
but, it would appear to me that belair63's constant arguing may not be in the best spirit of our group. As such, it may be time to consider alternative measures.

That's about as diplomatic as I can be :(

droptop62

02-10-2005, 05:25 PM

Some people like to talk just to hear themselves,
It does not matter how you respond whether it be polite or rude,
These people will continue to talk right over your answer or advice,
they are really not seeking advice, but actually just crave attention.
You guys are feeding him with all the attention in the world, most of you already know how this person will respond, yet you get all wrapped up in his crazy banter.
YOU GUYS KNOW HOW IT TURNS OUT EVERYTIME, YOU CAN'T WIN.
JUST STOP REPLYING AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE AN ARGUMENT, DISAGREEMENTS, OR ANYTHING ELSE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.

IT IS REALLY THAT SIMPLE, ....................."DON'T RESPOND"

dq409

02-10-2005, 05:34 PM

But,,,, but ,,,,,but,,,,,,,,, ahhhh never mind,,,,,

jester

02-10-2005, 05:47 PM

hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder where I heard that before?

fatride

02-10-2005, 06:40 PM

************************************************** **************

droptop62

02-10-2005, 07:13 PM

hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder where I heard that before?

Yes Jester, I was re-emphasizing what you had already said.
And I agreed with you.

chevymusclecars

02-10-2005, 10:24 PM

I always wondered why people would watch a soap opera on TV but if you look back on the post that involve this guy everyone tunes in to see what is going to happen next. I can see on this subject that he had six of the first nine post some of which are replys to his own questions. It is great that everyone wants to help but your suggestions are falling on deaf ears, you can only do so much and then it becomes frustating that you are unable to convey your message. I think this is a great site with some very knowlegable people but because of one person you are losing focus on your real interest, the 409 and era cars. Hopefully everyone will pull it all back together and make this site what I know Bob wants it to be.