Dropped A-Frames

[Russ348]

Anyone familiar with dropped a-frames for lowering a vehicale. Any
problems with going this route. Does it change the geometery of
the front end in anyway? Would like to retain the four wheel drum
brakes but would also like to lower the front end a few inches. :cool:
Are lowered Coils or lowereng shackles a better way to go? :?
Thanks.

[impalaragpat]

Anybody deal with Mcgaughys?

check out the spindles and A arms here


http://www.mcgaughys.com/spindles.html

[jim_ss409]

If you just want to drop it an inch or two cutting a bit off of the coil springs works fine. Drop spindles work fine too but they're made to take disc brakes. Check out this thread to see how Dale modified his lower control arm. It looks like a good way to do it, if you've got a welder. http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3757&highlight=dale

[dq409]

Dropped A-arms are the best way to go ! Less problems and more clearence !
Doesn`t change any geometry.
You also can cut one coil without any ride quality issues. ,,,dq

[Russ348]

Thanks Dq409. Heading over to Charleys Drop Shop to talk with
them right now.....Russ

[dq409]

Dang you Russ ,,, I just live less then ten blocks from Charley`s,,,
We could of hooked up !!

Tell him I sent you,,, jim with the red Blazer,,,, dq

[Russ348]

Dang you Russ ,,, I just live less then ten blocks from Charley`s,,,
We could of hooked up !!

Tell him I sent you,,, jim with the red Blazer,,,, dq

dq409. We live relativity close togather. I live by the University of Portland.
I'd sure like to see your car sometime. I'm leaving for Hawaiia monday
morning so maybe later. Rough life is'nt it? :)
Prices must of went up. He quoted a price of $500. Forgot to
ask if it were still possible to install disc brake after having this done.

P.S. Don't you ever work? :rofl I'm retired.

[dq409]

dq409.

P.S. Don't you ever work? :rofl I'm retired.


WORK ?? ME ?? Whats that ?????? :rofl I`m retarted !!! :stooges

[threeimpalas]

Doesn`t change any geometry.

Stepping the lower control arm changes the geometry of the front suspension to the same effect that using a coil spring does. This is because the locations of the ball joints move upward in relation to the pivot points on the crossmember with both methods. The only real reason to step the arm is if you need the extra travel of the suspension that would be lost by using the lowering springs, which is really a non-issue with these cars.

My "vote" would be for using some new lowering springs because it's a MUCH easier swap to do and you can replace the factory springs with a set that have a better spring rate at the same time.

[Russ348]

Stepping the lower control arm changes the geometry of the front suspension to the same effect that using a coil spring does. This is because the locations of the ball joints move upward in relation to the pivot points on the crossmember with both methods. The only real reason to step the arm is if you need the extra travel of the suspension that would be lost by using the lowering springs, which is really a non-issue with these cars.

My "vote" would be for using some new lowering springs because it's a MUCH easier swap to do and you can replace the factory springs with a set that have a better spring rate at the same time.

Now I am confused. :? Some say it does NOT change the geometry. Others
say It DOES. Guess the new Lowering Springs would be somewhat less
expansive. My real adjective, if possible, is not to impact the ride quality. :)

[dq409]

Sorry guys,,, but I stand my ground !! I`ve had many in depth talks about this with the man that knows !!
Charley, from Charley's Drop Shop.
He has lowered every possible car every possible way and prefers the dropped a-frames !!
Been doing longer then anyone in the states!!

He was one of the pioneers in dropped a-frames !! :deal


Russ, If you want I can meet you at Charley`s and we can get it from the horses mouth.

Email me and I`ll give you my cell number,,,, dq :D

[Gus68]

Hey Guys!!! Well of course it changes the geometry :takethat ! How could it not?Lets just think about it for a second shall we? If you raise the lower ball jointyou also raise the spindle right? When you raise the spindle you raise the upper controll arm, this puts the upper control arm at a higher angle which will pull the top of the spindle inwards, this will have to be corected by removing shims from the upper control arm mount to bring the alignment back to specs. problem is that most cars I have seen dont have that many shims in there ro begin with, what if you remove them all and you still need to go more?? Cut and reweld the upper cont. arm mount? (of coarse you would have the same problem if you cut too much off of the springs). But the raising of the upper contrl arm (putting it at a higher angle) DOES effect the way the car handles, it places the roll center at a different place. I have freinds who race circle track and they install a longer ball joint in the upper control arm to put the upper control arm at a higher angle which changes the roll center and helps the car stay "flatter" in the turns. Another thing to consider is when you raise the lower ball joint and the spindle is higher the arm on the spindle that the tie rod attaches to raises as well. This will put the tie rods at a different angle as the lower control arm because remember, you didn't change the angle of the lower arm just the hight of the lower ball joint. This difference in angles of the lower cont. arm and tie rods will effect bump steer (where the wheels will toe in when the suspension is compressed). Lowering the car by cutting coils or using different springs would avoid this problem. In my opinion, using aftermarket dropped spindles would be the best way to lower a car and not change any of the front end geometry. In a perfect world, if you switched the spindles with drpped spindles you would not even have to have it aligned afterwards. Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong. :)

[Russ348]

Thanks for the offer dq. I'm leaving for hawaii :cool: in the morning, gone
two weeks, back one week then to San Francisco. Retirement
is HELL. Just no time to rest. When I return and decide to
go thru with this I will give you a buzz. :D :D

[Russ348]

Hey Guys!!! Well of course it changes the geometry :takethat ! How could it not?Lets just think about it for a second shall we? If you raise the lower ball jointyou also raise the spindle right? When you raise the spindle you raise the upper controll arm, this puts the upper control arm at a higher angle which will pull the top of the spindle inwards, this will have to be corected by removing shims from the upper control arm mount to bring the alignment back to specs. problem is that most cars I have seen dont have that many shims in there ro begin with, what if you remove them all and you still need to go more?? Cut and reweld the upper cont. arm mount? (of coarse you would have the same problem if you cut too much off of the springs). But the raising of the upper contrl arm (putting it at a higher angle) DOES effect the way the car handles, it places the roll center at a different place. I have freinds who race circle track and they install a longer ball joint in the upper control arm to put the upper control arm at a higher angle which changes the roll center and helps the car stay "flatter" in the turns. Another thing to consider is when you raise the lower ball joint and the spindle is higher the arm on the spindle that the tie rod attaches to raises as well. This will put the tie rods at a different angle as the lower control arm because remember, you didn't change the angle of the lower arm just the hight of the lower ball joint. This difference in angles of the lower cont. arm and tie rods will effect bump steer (where the wheels will toe in when the suspension is compressed). Lowering the car by cutting coils or using different springs would avoid this problem. In my opinion, using aftermarket dropped spindles would be the best way to lower a car and not change any of the front end geometry. In a perfect world, if you switched the spindles with drpped spindles you would not even have to have it aligned afterwards. Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong. :)

The way it was explaned to me that all the adjustment is on the LOWER control arm. :? :?

[dq409]

Sorry Gus,,, your wrong,,,,,,,,,, You don`t get more bump steer or any geo problems with the dropped arms,,,
Basically all your doing is lowering the spring by raising the ball joint and keeping the nice ride of full springs.
I`m not the expert here but Charley sure is and this is the method he prefers.

Like I said ,,, he has done it every way that can be done.

The dropped spindles have there problems also..

I have Charley`s dropped a-arms on my Blazer and it drives like a new truck !!http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL847/1590826/4883259/69522340.jpg

[Gus68]

:dunno Hey guys!!! I don't claim to know it all, but just think about it! Do I need to draw you a picture? :takethat you are not lowering the spring, the spring doesnt even know anything has happened, you just raised the lower ball joint which in turn raises the spindle which raises the upper control arm and tie rod, yes it lowers the car but it also changes EVERYTHING :doh .

[dq409]

Gus, You can draw all the diagrams you want ,but ,,,,,

I just drove down and talked about this with Charley again.

He drew several diagrams explaining how every thing works and how very little change occurs to the geometry if any.

The only changes with the dropped a-arms helps in the front end geo by giving more negitive camber which helps keep the tires square on the ground during cornering !

I talked to Charley about joining the forum and explaining all the principles about the dropped a-arms verses the dropped spindles.
Hopefully he will join soon enough to explain it from the veiw of someone who does it for a living.

As far as bump steer,,, niether way affects this. :D ,,,dq

[Gus68]

Hey guys!!! Im not here to pick a fight or say whose right or wrong, Im just saying that it DOES change the suspension geometry. I admit, the amount it changes is probably not much or enough to make a big difference, but it DOES change and you would need to have it aligned after the mod. But it does change, how could it not?

[dq409]

So Gus, I know you`re not looking for a fight just stating your position on this subject.

Charley says this is just like an opinion like the difference between Chevy and F**d.
It will go around and around for ever!

BUT,,, If all you are saying is that it just needs an alignment there IS no argument !!!

When ever you change anything in the suspension you need to have it re-aligned !!

That does not mean that the dropped a-arms changed the geometry, it just means that it needs to be reset !! :doh

Same being with the dropped spindles !!

So what`s the point here? ,,dq

[Gus68]

Who's Charley????? Is that the mastermind behind all of lingenfelder vette's.... sounds like maybe...... I beleive you have to draw yourself a picture dq409, and think about it ,, I want to correctly help this person out the best I possibly can with the question he is asking,, and all you are doing is telling him false info... or heresy , if I will. :D
And by the way Chevy is and always will be better than Ford.....

[dq409]

Who's Charley????? Is that the mastermind behind all of lingenfelder vette's.... sounds like maybe...... I beleive you have to draw yourself a picture dq409, and think about it ,, I want to correctly help this person out the best I possibly can with the question he is asking,, and all you are doing is telling him false info... or heresy , if I will. :D
And by the way Chevy is and always will be better than Ford.....

Now it sounds like YOU are trying to start a fight !!! :takethat

I`m trying to help him also and I do know what I`m talking about and it is not hearsay !! I quote Charley because he is the expert on lowering cars and trucks and has many more years experence doing it then you or me or anyone else on this site combined.

I brought him into the mix because I was being told I didn`t know what I was talking about.

I believe you are misleading Russ IMO !!!

Go ahead and use your dropped spindles,,,,,,, NOT ME !!!

When Russ gets back we will meet at Charley`s shop and he can see all the diagrams and listen to a "master in this field" explain the difference between the two methods.

And we do agree on some thing,,,,,,, CHEVYS !!!! :brow ,,,dq


PEACE

Charley`s Drop Shop (http://www.dropitnow.net/)



.

.

[threeimpalas]

Here are roughly the effects of each method of lowering on the geometry of the suspension, post alignment for proper caster and camber.

IC = Instantaneous Center
RC = Roll Center

http://www.regionofdoomforum.com/Upload/userfiles/itslow/geometry-stock.gif
http://www.regionofdoomforum.com/Upload/userfiles/itslow/geometry-spring.gif
http://www.regionofdoomforum.com/Upload/userfiles/itslow/geometry-steparm.gif
http://www.regionofdoomforum.com/Upload/userfiles/itslow/geometry-spindle.gif

You can clearly tell that each method changes the geometry of the suspension. Some more than others.

[threeimpalas]

Some reading that may be worthwhile.

http://members.aol.com/sccacuda/cars/5SmthTa.html


How long a person has been "dropping" cars means squat. Whether they understand the engineering and dynamics of what happens as a result is what matters.

[Gus68]

thank you 3impalas... (as i'm about blue in the face!!!!!) :rofl ;) :clap

[dq409]

Well I`ll be dipped !!!

You outa be blue in the face !!! :?

He does know his dynamics,,, he has drawn the diagrams,,,
I am running his stuff and know how they handle,,,steer and feel.

Use what you want,,,,

[dq409]

This outa really make your face blue !! :rofl
This is taken off that site threeimps posted.
And using his drawing and this tex I would say that the stepped a-arm is better.
which is what I was refering to several post ago.

Read this and let me know what you think,,,, But be nice,,,, were friends here :cool:
----------------------
Before describing exactly how to determine the roll center of a car let's examine the main advantages and disadvantages of both a high and a low roll center and see why at best, any design is a compromise.


The amount of body roll attained from a certain roll center height is dependent on the leverage effect between the roll center and the center of gravity height. The higher the center of gravity and the lower the roll center, the greater amount of body roll there is (because of a high amount of leverage between the two points). The higher the roll center and the lower the center of gravity, the less body roll there is (because not much leverage is. placed on the roll center by the center of gravity).

If there is a high roll center and thus very little body roll and weight transfer, softer springs can be used to control what body roll there is. This is one reason why the rear end of a stock car always has softer springs than the front end. The major disadvantage to a high roll center is that the lateral force of the car during cornering, rather than exerting itself as body roll,. exerts itself, in terms of lateral. force at the tire contact patch creating instability during cornering. In other words, with a high roll center, weight is pushed sideways on the tire creating tire scrub.

With a low roll center, weight is transferred more in a circular motion, or in other words, it is picked up from the top of the inside wheel and forced down on top of the outside wheel. The advantages of a low roll center are less tire scrub, but the major disadvantage is that there is more weight transfer and body roll to control and this is the reason for the front anti roll or stabilizer bar (which will be discussed in two more chapters).

[threeimpalas]

You just kept insisting that the stepped arms don't change things, when in fact they do. Granted my illustrations aren't to proportion and more than likely exaggerate the effects of the changes, but you can see that the stepped arms actually change the geometery quite a bit more than using the dropped spindles and roughtly the same as the springs.

You're major pro of using the stepped arms, aside from thinking the geometry doesn't change, has been the supposed ability to use the soft stock springs. However, with the stepped arms, you'd need to use stiffer springs to counteract the roll effect caused by the lower RC location. What you've also forgotten to consider is the location of the CG in these cars. If they've got a higher CG, then coupled with the low RC and stock springs, you'll get undesireable results.

Without more information about the actual dimensions of the suspension and vehicle properties (such as CG, wheel offset, tire type/size, etc), intended use, etc., all you're doing is making a guess as to which method is the "best" - short of re-designing the suspension for a lower ride height.

My reason for suggesting the use of lowering springs instead of stepping the a-arms is primarily due to the fact it's MUCH less work and will still end up with a result that Russ will find more than adequate.

[dq409]

OK, threeimps,,, I do get your point !!!

I should also state that what I meant about changing the geometry should be interpreted as "changing it in such a way that it can`t be corrected to drive right".

I would agee that it might be easier and cheaper to use the lowering springs and get great results but what I stood firm on was the stepped a-arms are a very good way to lower cars and trucks and is the prefered way by me, others and Charley.

With a shorter spring you lose some travel in the suspension where as in either the stepped a-arms and spindles you don`t.

Now where this loss of travel is noticable ,, I can`t say.

So ,,,, I think it is a preferred preference. Like I said before ,,, It`s an arguement like which is better F**d or Chevy,,,,,,,, dq

[dq409]

Lets look at this from another angle.

Just say you want to drop your car two inches.

You can order the:
- dropped spindles
-dropped A-arms
-two inch lowering springs

If you order the springs ,,,, it will lower your car two inches from what/where?
Do they measure the drop with the weight of a six cylinder? 283/327?
Or a 409?

And there are other issues that you have to take into account, bushing wear? Tire size? Roll cages? etc

When you use either the the dropped spindles or a-arms you will get a two in drop from where the car sits now !! :brow

Yes the springs are half the price of the other two options but do you get 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 lowered hieght?Somewhere in the middle? More ? Less? :dunno

Threeimps, have you used any of the above ?

If so how did they work.
If the springs, where did you end up? did you measure before and after?

Again,,really not trying to start anything , just trying to share and get more info.

lets look at this as a forum of different opinion and views,,, dq

[threeimpalas]

With a shorter spring you lose some travel in the suspension where as in either the stepped a-arms and spindles you don`t.

Now where this loss of travel is noticable ,, I can`t say.

The loss of travel isn't a problem on these cars, as you'd be scraping exhaust on the pavement when the bumpstops hit the frame. You'd have to be low to begin with for that to happen unless you're going over a pretty darn big dip in the road.

The '61 wagon has the McGaughy disc brake drop spindles and new springs to compensate for the increased weight of a BBC (I don't remember if they were stock length or shorter). It originally had cut stock 6 cylinder coils. Too many things have changed on that car at once to give a good estimate of what did what; not to mention it was a while ago.

The '59 SDL uses an air suspension, which is another option, but not cheap or fitting of the "theme" that Russ and many others here have for their cars.

A place like Eaton (http://www.eatonsprings.com/) can build you a set of springs to suit what you want and what you've got.

[Va348]

Ok here is my take on this,As I stepped my a-arms.

Been a Old oval racer, and if you are going to do well you better know front ends.
And I'am one those guys that loves to make things.

One every important thing that you'all are forgeting about is camber gain that you
really need with radial tires.Stepping the a-arm is like lenghting the spindle.

Before I stepped arms it had Pos camber gain like 1/2 deg per in.
what it has now is 1//4 deg per in neg. gain.

all so I narrow mine 3/8 in it has disk brake on it. I all so level the top ball joint up
Top a arm was easy you need to study it a little. If you saw it beside joint toward motor its easy. Now you need to be a good welder to do all this. You can not tell I cut mine now. I made a little gig. to hold my spindle were I want it. and then welded it. By the way bump steer is .030 per in up to 2 in.

You need to make your own judement on this!


Dale

[threeimpalas]

Stepping the a-arm is like lenghting the spindle.

How is stepping the a-arm like lengthing the spindle? The distance between the ball joints is still the same as stock.

Narrowing or lengthing either control arm (the lower one 3/8" in your case) will change the camber curve, however.

[dq409]

Ok here is my take on this,As I stepped my a-arms.


Before I stepped arms it had Pos camber gain like 1/2 deg per in.
what it has now is 1//4 deg per in neg. gain.


Dale


Thanks VA348 !! Thats what I was told and what I printed back a few posts.,,, dq

[Va348]

You are right threeimpala, The distance is the same between ball joints.

Get some true measurements off a car at ride height, and get the centers on all hook up points .

But remember the angle of the ball joint end of top a-arm is moving up 2 in also.
That's what change the camber gain, Not narrowing up 3/8, Narrowing Help the bump Steer.

Like I said it works for me. And I kike to build,Plus it did not cost anything.

We were stepping a-arm in 1970 on oval cars to fix Camber gain. Plus lowing them
Remember this is before you could ( Buy Everthing )or have spindles made like they do today.

I know not everone a can do this or want too. In my opinion only, it the Best way.
I just fix's everthing.

Dale

[threeimpalas]

Narrowing the lower control arm will also cause the camber curve to go less negative, which is the wrong way to go on these cars. You'd also need to narrow the upper arm to compensate for the change.

In regards to the change in ball joint locations, using the lowering springs will have the same effect.

[Va348]

The upper A-arm was shorthen too.I was thinking I had that in there.

I used lowing springs in my 55 It work OK. Just a little choppe for me.

My cars I like to ride like todays and hear nothing but G Jones on radio.


Have a good Day

Dale