Z 11 Thread on Chevy Talk

[jim_ss409]

There's a thread on Chevy talk that might be interesting to those with an interest in Z-11s. http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1119952&an=0&page=0#1119952

[Fran Preve]

I could comment on some things in that thread but BowTieOllie won't let me on the site. Tell bigcarman that Fran Preve found the engine in the red Bel Air (if it's the same red aluminum front end car built in Niagara Falls (it was bought from a guy from there). And tell Verrne to look in the Symm's book, first page, second name from bottom as a source for Rusty.

[walkerheaders]

Fran, I see your name in my copy. the only other name i recognize is Gary Sutphin, He's the guy i sold my Z11 heads, intake and square cornered rocker covers to. that was in 1984 when they were worth $2500. I put "em in the truck of my 425 car and drove to southern Md. they had a few owners before me including Doug Fleharty. he had a 61 409 Impala called, " Mister Resister" he bought the Z11 topend at Lustine in Hyattsville, Md. (about 2 blocks from Malcolm Durhams place)
I will never know how, but Rusty Symmes heard about me having the aluminum front bumper. he called all the way from indiana and dogged me until i finally gave in and shipped it to him. $600 was good money in 1982. I got the bumper free from the original owner, George Taylor.

[Mr.Jimmy]

Is chevy talk down today??? I was on there this morning at 3...and now I can't open it up from the lead on here...or from typing it into my address...I even tried .com and .org.

Darn

I wanted to see what hupla Ollie was steering up!! :rofl

[64ss409]

I haven't been able to get on Chevy Talk today either. It says "connection refused". :dunno
Ron

[bowtieollie]

Sorry guys,

CT server crashed - but its back up to warp speed now. :)

Nothing out of line Mr Jimmy - just a history review.

Don't worry Fran - you aren't missing anything since you ALREADY know it all. :clap

[MK IISS]

Great ... Just what we all needed......another darn fight.

[Fran Preve]

He ain't worth it Richard.

[bowtieollie]

I think someone (namely BOB) needs to take FRAN behind the barn and REMIND him of the User Agreement. How fast he forgets. :help

Richard - no argument or fight from me. I come here to discuss various topics with the "members who care". I do not make fun or pick on any members - I stay on the topic. :clap

If Fran wants to whine and cry that he can't get on CT that's his problem.
What a whiner!! :cry

[MK IISS]

It has been many, many years since I've heard the term he "started it first." Probably the sixth grade.

Let's get back to the discussion of '63 Z-11 cars and the mysterious '62s with the aluminum front clips. Some say no '62s were factory built. Others say a few were built at the factory. If a few were factory built...How was the car ordered? Was there a RPO #, a LPO # or are they a COPO car ? If any of the cars were factory built there must be some paperwork to prove it. Some experts say the car is "documented" but they never offer the documentation.

[bowtieollie]

Richard,

I have never seen a "factory built" '62 Z11 car.

I have seen those that were assembled using parts which were available "over the counter".

[SteveD409]

Rusty lives probably less than 15 miles from me and I've never looked him up. Got to remedy that.

SteveD

[bowtieollie]

It has been many, many years since I've heard the term he "started it first." Probably the sixth grade.


Richard, unfortunately you have to deal with people at the education level they are accustomed.

[MK IISS]

I don't know Ollie, it just seemed you were trying to start something up again.

Except for Dave Strickler's Impala, I have seen several '62s with alum. front clips but they were all BelAir Spt cps. I would have to assume these were all conversions. A very knowledgable member of chevytalk said the Flint factory built some '62 Impala SSs with the alum. front clips. Other experts say they were ALL dealer/owner conversions. So as far as I'm concerned it's all opinions. That is why I said it would be nice to see "the proof" one way or the other.

[Mr.Jimmy]

What ever became of the guy that supposely had his RPO paperwork yet from the one he used to own???

[real61ss]

Mr. Jimmy,
Did you get my last email yesterday about the shifter?

[Mr.Jimmy]

Ya...I just got it...you have mail...lol

[bowtieollie]

Now that would be nice to see. Original paperwork on an original owner car. :love

Richard, like you, I have only seen the aluminum clips on the Bel Air model.
Just think, there might be one out there in some barn in the mid West that no one has found yet..... :eek:

[SteveD409]

The Zintsmaster car is an SS.

SteveD

[walkerheaders]

the Dave Strickler / Bill Jenkins Impala (old reliable III) was a 62 SS car. It always had the aluminum, but who knows if it came that way?

[gearhead409]

i always heard the strickler-jenkins 62 alum parts something like this=== they originally put them on the belair to run A/FX but it wasn't competitive enough to run with pontiac's tempest, so they decided to put them on a ss impala to run in B/FX which put them at the top of the class. i think nicholson did the same thing. just going on my old drag race memories,no hard core facts.

[Fran Preve]

Gearhead: according to the November issue of Hot Rod magazines article on the 1962 Summer Nationals YOU are right. Also, as pictured in the book Super Stock, 'ol Reliable III WAS a Super Sport Impala, the bucket seats are clearly visable. This was a conversion using the parts from the Bel Air and then putting the Bel Air in SS/S.

As Richard has stated, it is not believed ANY aluminum front end Impalas were built on the assembly line and for the reasons he stated. Also, in the November issue of Hot Rod they speak of the aluminum front end parts being released in the late summer of 1962.

Larry Davis book continually refers to the Mark I engine package as "Z-11". While the engine is refered to as a "Z-11" that designation was for the entire PACKAGE which came out in December of 1963. The two piece intake and special heads were designated the Mark I in internal Chevrolet Engineering documents while the engine used in the Z-11 package was designated the Mark Is with the small S designating "stroke".

I've said it before here, if you don't have Larry Davis's book, "Super Stock - Drag RAcing the Family Sedan" you should. It's impressive and has many rare pictures from the early 60's.

[gearhead409]

thanks fran, i was born the same year as you ( a feb.2nd baby). i'am glad to know i still have some of my memory left!

[brisbane47]

Fran, just when I thought you were dormant, you prove me wrong and are alive and well?? Have you bought any Florida property yet?? See ya, Hitman

[Fran Preve]

Hit: House in North Port which is a couple of miles north of Port Charlotte, 425 has a brother in P Charlotte, hopefully he'll move there. I hope to "duel" and be down there in the winters (wish I was there NOW, brrrrr!). Laid off for a while. I nose around from time to time. Glad to here from you.

Gear: Having "been there" helps at times, having a whole bunch of reference material helps jog the memory!. You can appreciate how it was, it was a great time to be a gearhead growing up!.

[gearhead409]

a great time to grow up? you bet! i was just a snot nose kid back in 61-62 hanging over the fence at indy watching these guys race their brand new cars. in 62 they paraded all these factory hot rods down the track before they started racing. there were over 50 of them, what a site! these guys were my heroes,you watched and read everything they did. even had dinner with grumpy one time, i think it was 66 or 67.

[Fran Preve]

Gear: NO!, I'm not talking about hanging on a fence, I'm talking about going BEHIND the fence at auto dealers in the early 60's. Every year was a new year with new styling on the cars. Remember when the dealers used put paper over their windows so's you couldn't see the new cars before the release date?. Or when new cars had covers on them on the car haulers so's you couldn't see them?. Not like today when you can see 2006's already and some 2007's. Back in the day every August and September was the time to search new car dealers back lots to be the first to see the new cars. When was the last time you hunted back lots to see a new car?. You had to be there. Think about it, from 1958 to 1965 every new Chevy full size was new and completely different from the last.

As far as drag racing was concerned, nobady really got enthused about it until the factories started getting into it. But that's another story.

[Mr.Jimmy]

Whose the guy from Ohio called Phil that had a 62 back in the day with all the Z-11 stuff. He was suppose to be some little local racer. There is quite a thing on Chevytalk about him....He posted some fuzzy pictures and fuzzy receipts from the parts room for the parts.


My dial up was too slow to open his picutes...so watch out!!!

[walkerheaders]

here's the link to his page, guess we should invite him to join 348-409.com

http://community.webshots.com/album/281018880tcSqUn

[region rat]

Hey, guys. Years back I talked to John Zintsmaster. He offered the car to me but at the time he wanted much more than The Grump sold his car for. I just wasn't smart enough to believe what a car like that would go for. He told me that car was delivered from the factory with the aluminum installed. I also heard tales of the factory running some aluminim cars down the assembly line as a trial run for possibly assembling the Z-11 cars. The story I heard was that was supposed to happen at the near the end of the 62 production run, which is when Jonh's car was built. Any one out there know the straight poop on that one?? Bob Da Region Rat

[region rat]

Fran, I remember just what you're talking about with the new models. Late 66 I can remember the thrill of peeking through the windows in our dealers trans repair area to get a glimpse of the new PANTHER Chevy was rumored to have out in 67. Thought it was neat, them found they changed the name to CAMERO! Bob, da REgion Rat

[Mr.Jimmy]

Bob,

No one has been able to prove that yet. Some talkers, but no proof.

[Fran Preve]

The 1963 cars weren't built until December (beginning) 1962. They were built in small groups, not all at once based on known Z-11 cars and their production dates. These cars were most probably built AT the assembly plant but OFF the assembly line in the repair area so they wouldn't disrupt normal production (i.e. stop the line). The 1962 aluminum "kit" had fewer parts than the 1963 RPO Z-11 car. The 1962 cars didn't have any mechanical parts. The 1962 heads and 2 piece intake were ALMOST but not quite the same as the 1963 production parts. In my opinion, based on the great difficulty of getting ANYTHING built on the assembly line then out thru the channels to the dealer there were NONE built on the assembly line in the 1962 model year.

It is more likely Chevrolet told the selling Zintmaster dealer to put the parts on in their bodyshop , this would be quicker, easier, and FAR less headache to Chevrolet. He would have been told to do what everyone else was doing, put the parts on themselves. Also with the NHRA, the factory (Chevrolet), didn't know from one day to the next what class these cars would have been run in, it changed from week to week. They could sell the parts over the counter and let the racers take their chances what class they would run.

Also, there was NO horsepower rating for the 409 engine with the Mark I parts, thus any car running them would have HAD to run in Factory Experimental. Factory Experimental was classed by cubic inches to weight. A/FX was 0-8.99, B/FX was 9.00 to 12.99 and C/FX was 13.00 and up. The 1963 Mark Is engine used in the Z-11 package was rated at 430 hp.

It is HIGHLY unlikely any car left the assembly plant to be shipped to a dealer without the federally mandated window sticker stating the manufacturers suggested retail price. As I've said, there's far more involved in getting a car assembled on an assembly line and shipped to a dealer than a dealer just calling the assembly plant and saying "build me a car like this".

[chevymusclecars]

Fran

While your answer sounds logical it would not have been impossible to run the cars down the production line. The story is that the Z16 was built on the assembly line and those cars had special rear end assemblies, larger brakes and of course the early casting date engine that were pre arranged to build the 201 cars. It is interesting that on those cars however that the accessory codes stamped on the cowl tag look like a five year old may have hammered them out. Do you know anyone that worked at the assembly plant at that time that would know the whole story and were all the cars built at the same plant?

Bill

[Fran Preve]

Bil: No I don't. I was however involved with the location of the "prototype" Z-16 which was restored by Floyd Garrett, the red car. Evidently there were 2 prototype, or pre production Z-16's that started life at an assembly plant other than the one that built all the others. So Chevy could and did build some oddballs. This car however contains many parts that were clearly labled as coming from the "model shop" where Chevrolet built one off parts and some parts that had the "0-" in the casting code signifying experimental. These parts were the same as the production parts. I'd have to check my records to be sure but Tonawanda built approximately 220 of these Z-16 L-37 engines.

But to answer the part about "not being impossible", no but it lives in the same room. Go back to what I wrote, why?. There are more reasons for why they would NOT have ben built than why they would. In the case of the Z-16 that was Chevrolet sanctioned, it was an RPO option. The Z-16 isn't the same as an aluminum front end 1962 Impala. The Z-16 is kind of like the 409 in 1961, it was built in very limited numbers and given massive promotion. The 409 was because Ford was hammering Chevy with the 390 powered Ford, and Chevrolet didn't PLAN to release the 409 until the 1962 model year. The Z-16 was to try and hold off Chevy buyers from buying the hot selling GTO. Chevrolet was caught in an engine conundrum. The 409 would FIT in the 1964 Chevelle, but it was over the self imposed 400 cubic inch limit. The Mark IV wasn't coming out until mid 1965 and while it fit under the 400 cubic inch limit it would be costly to built a separate Chevelle version for only part of the model year, AND the engine was just entering production build capacity was just ramping up. So Chevrolet "splashed" the SS396, building very few highly optioned cars and getting as much publicity out of it as they could. Of course the 1966 SS396 was a forgone conclusion, the Z-16 was simply a stop gap. Just as the 1961 409 was a stop gap for the planned for full production 1962 409.

The point of my last post was simply to join the folks that don't think a 1962 Impala or group of them were built on the assembly line and why I thought that. Maybe what I wrote would give people some other points to ponder. So far no one can prove they were, or they weren't. After 40 plus years.

[jester]

Quote
"Factory Experimental was classed by cubic inches to weight. A/FX was 0-8.99, B/FX was 9.00 to 12.99 and C/FX was 13.00 and up. "

I'm sitting on the side tring to learn as much as an old man can and I have a question . Can you explain this statement in plain languange so a guy with old timers can understand it ? Thanks. :doh

[chevymusclecars]

Jester

The weight to cubic inch ratio is simple, you can take the weight of the car and divide it by the number for the class in which you want to participate and that will give you the maximum cubic inch limit for your car. Or to reverse that 409 X 9 = 3691 is the minimum weight for B/FX anything with that cubic inch under that weight is moved up to A/FX. The weight used to determine this is actual scale weight and not an advertised weight.

Bill

[chevymusclecars]

Fran

I was never involved with the stock class cars and really didn't pay much attention to them at that time. My 55 Chevy had a 409 in it and that is the major cause of my interest in the 409 now. The only Z11 I ever saw on the street was at a Big Boy in Cinci and the idiot made a few passes through the place banging the oil pan on the speed bumps each time he went over one. You can probably figure out that he flatened it enough that he starved the oil pump and blew it up right there. In any case back to the car, it just seems to me that a car with limited production like this one would have its history pretty well documented but a lot of it seems to be memory. As I think you know I am not disputing what you are saying but I think everyone would like to know the real history of the car, where they were built, how and who was able to sign the ticket to get it done.

Bill

[jester]

Jester

The weight to cubic inch ratio is simple, you can take the weight of the car and divide it by the number for the class in which you want to participate and that will give you the maximum cubic inch limit for your car. Or to reverse that 409 X 9 = 3691 is the minimum weight for B/FX anything with that cubic inch under that weight is moved up to A/FX. The weight used to determine this is actual scale weight and not an advertised weight.

Bill
Thanks Bill That clears that up. The reason I asked is I have a friend that is just finishing up a 65 Dodge a/fx car. . I guess back in the sixties builder would take a 4 door car and shorten the body by cutting the car in half and replace the rear section with one from a 2 door car. I understand that the body was shortend and trunk remained the same lenght. I just wanted to know why they called that an A/FX car. Thanks.

[Mr.Jimmy]

Bill,

do you remember who that idiot was...or what color his car was?? Was it black or a dark brown?


Thanks

[phil2]

Do you really think my pictures are all that Fuzzy. Well two are. The rest don't look too bad, the engine is pretty plain, the receipt and packing slip are legible.
They are what they are.

I was asked to post some pictures if I had any. Thats all I had.

By the way the car was a '63 (that would be Dark Brown) and I've never been to

Cincinnati with it. Thats a little far afield for me to simply drive through Manners..

I'd rather confine my idiocy to Northern Ohio.

phil2

[Fran Preve]

Jester: according to the magazines from back then, where they showed how the cars were built, the used 2 door bodies and went from there. I don't remember evr seeing photo's of a 4 door being chopped up. Shortening a 4 door would seem to be more of a project than doing a 2 door.Most were hardtps, some were sedans.

ChevyMC: Who did you have to know?. That's lost to history, as far as the aluminum front ends were concerned, and the two piece intake and heads, you can be SURE they only went to recognized TOURING racers witha proven track record. Who would YOU supply parts that were in a VERY limited supply?. Strickler, Nicholson, Leal of course. Remember the racers didn't come to Chevy, Chevy went to them (how else would they know?). Chevy would provide the parts to racers who had the best chance of winning AND who would take the cars out on tour to get maximum exposure from them. A racer from Podunk may hear about the parts and want them, but Chevy wouldn't just hand these limited parts out to just anyone, until or unless all the "name" racers had been offered them first.

In MY opinion, and it's based on all I know and/or can make an educated guess on, to have a 1962 Impala built on the assembly the dealer would have to go thru the Zone they were located in, I don't know how a dealer submitted an order for ANY car to the assembly plant but they wouldn't just call up Flint, for example and say "make me a Impala with a 409 and 4 speed with a radio in red with a red interior", I'm sure of THAT!. There was an ordering process ALL dealers had to go thru.

OK, so what if the dealership had a connection with Zone?. That would help. What if the dealership was one of the largest in the Zone?. That would help. What if the dealership sponsored a KNOWN drag racer?. That would help. What if that dealership sold a whole LOT of performance parts over the counter and/or sold a whole LOT of "performance" Chevrolets, including Corvettes. that would help. Keep in mind there were fewer than 9000 409's sold in 1962, spread among over 6000 dealers across the whole USA.

There was ONE 1963 Z-11 sold in Buffalo, NY. It was sold to a known racer. The dealer, Glen Campbell Chevrolet was THE Corvette dealer in western New York, they stocked and sold bunches. I don't know and would only be guessing, but many of their cars were sold to big wigs at the Tonawanda engine plant, and the Tonawanda foundry, and the Tonawanda forge, and the Delevan axle plant so IF (capitol letters) someone at the dealer needed help, well a couple of phone calls. And that many have been completely un-necessary.

But getting ONE Z-11 car is one thing, having a "special" car built, one with no RPO, or LPO, or COPO would open up a whole new can of worms. Could the Zintmaster car, just for example, be built because of "connections"?. Maybe, but as far as I'M concerned, i'd have to know WHO put the order thru and what connections they used. Just saying it (along with others) were built at the Flint assembly plant, for me, doesn't get the job done. It all goes back to the fact an assembly line or assembly plant car would have to have a window sticker, and/or a price SOMWHERE telling the PRICE of such a car. Tell me who authorized the car (s) to be built, then DOCUMENT it and I won't be as skeptical.

I'm only pointing out some of the hoops that had to be jumped thru, things I've never read anywhere written by anyone. These are just somethings to THINK ABOUT.

What is KNOWN is these parts were released in early June 1962 and would have had to have been in racers hands by July so the cars could be race ready on Labor Day. We also know there were VERY few engine kits and body kits made available.

Finally, this happened 43 years ago. Most of the people involved are dead or relying on memories. My views, and their on MY views, are based on photgraphic records, magazine articles from when it all happened, and what I know about how things were done back then, or educated guesses. You can say you don't think I'm right, or you can give your viewpoint as to why you think I'm wrong.

PS: I capitolize all the times in my posts, in "computerize' that's supposed to signify a shout. I am NOT shouting, I don't know how to italize to emphisize my point.

PPS: Jester/CMC, take the figure for C/FX, 13.00 to one, and multiply that times some cubic inches and you'll see Tom Sturms car was probably steel, no aluminum, and had a 283 or 302 engine, it had to weight something like 3900lbs.

[chevymusclecars]

Mr Jimmy

If I remember right the car was white and most of the cars that showed up there weren't looking for a sandwich. There were a lot of cars that went there to either just show their cars or find somone who they had heard about and wanted to race. I believe this car was actually owned by the owner of the largest Chevy dealer in the area and probably belonged to the drivers father. I did look at the engine while they were trying figure out what had happened and then found out what the car was for sure.

Bill

[chevymusclecars]

Phil2

I saw your pictures and they are clear on my computer. I am amazed that you can still find receipts from that far back. My microwave just broke and I couldn't find a receipt from last year.

Fran

Again I am not doubting you I just think it is a shame that Chevrolet has never payed a lot of attention to things that are now part of their history. I also understand that they are in bussiness to build cars that is something that the NCRS has never understood. My question as to who got the program through was more directed to the program not the individual cars.

Bill

[Fran Preve]

CMC: That parts easy, Vince Piggins was in charge of passenger car performance and Duntov was (primarily) in charge of Corvette performance. They had the ear of first Ed Cole then Bunky Knudsen both of whom knew the value of performance selling cars and how Chevy HAD to be a player or be left behind. Knudsen came to Chevy from Pontiac where he, along with his underling DeLorean, pushed performance HARD. There were others I am sure, Fred Frinke worked closely with Piggins, and he was one of MY sources back in the late 80's thru my connections where I worked.

Why weren't records kept?. Well there IS a source inside Chevrolet where, evidently, QUALIFIED historians can look thru old records. Allen Cole was allowed in as is shown by his books. I'm sorry if this sounds "puffrey" but I corraled everything I could find at the Tonawanda engine plant back in the mid to late 80's, gathered it in TERRIFIED it would be lost to history. A small part was, but that's another story.

You MUST understand, back when it happened, performance in the early '60's, no one thought to put everything in order and save it. They didn't at Chevy, or Ford, or Chrysler. And Tonawanda didn't have a place where they put every record as to WHEN each casting was put into service. Also lost are the records as to what each "CE" code service engine was, or the parts that went into COPO engines. I tried, I looked everywhere.

The trick now is separating the wheat from the chafe. You can thank your lucky stars there are people out there like Ed Cunneen of the COPO Connection, Rusty Symms of the Z-11 Connection, Allen Cole and his books, Mark Meekins who ran the National Chevelle Owners Association, Mark Jascher who's researching a book on the Z-11 and Mystery motor and a couple of others who have spent a LOT of time doing research and more than that making sure what they do is ACCURATE. These men are true HISTORIANS. What was it Ronnie Reagan said?, "trust, but verify". It's also good to have more than one source. Anyway, I feel your pain, I too wish there were accurate records to go to. But back then no one thought that what they did would become such a BIG DEAL to so many people 20-30-40 years in the future. Anyway, the truth will will out, hopefully.........................

[chevymusclecars]

Fran

That is more the type of information I am interested in finding. I have none of the Allen Cole books you mention so I will start there.

Bill

[gearhead409]

i don't seam to have allen cole books. i have allen colvin's books. who is this cole guy?

[Fran Preve]

Gear: believe it or don't, I have Allen COLVIN'S book out in the garage and have been going thru it for the last few days. Talk about getting OLD, i'm reading the book and can't get the name right.

CMC: I have many inter office memo's with dozen's of "CC to" names, some of which I've seen before some I haven't. Piggin's, Frinke's and Duntov's show up regularly. Polkinghorn a couple of others. Who was who and where did they fall into the scheme of things?. I only know a couple. If someone has a list of names and their positions back then it would help. Like I said, add 40-45 years to their age and you'll see only a few are still around. Piggin's, the most important of the group we'd like to talk to died 20 years ago shortly after retiring, Duntov passed a couple of years ago, Don Yenko died in a plane crash in 1987. Billy Howell was in the performance group, retired and started a business selling wiring to adapt EFI to older cars, I think he's still around. Smokey yunicks gone, but he was VERY opinionated and you couldn't take everything he said as the gospel. Bunkie Knudsen is dead, he was AWESOME!. A honest to god gear head (not like Lutz).

If your interested in learning more about back then go to Amazon and by a book:
"Chevrolet ='s Racing, 14 years of raucious silence" by Paul Van Valkinburg (berg?). He's re-issued it and it's readily available. Van Valkenberg was a Chevrolet engineer heavily involved in Chevy's racing. The quit (or was fired?) and wrote a book, a "tell all" book about backdoor involvement. It was only out for a short time and the forward was written by Bunkie Knudsen. It was scarfted up and quickly became a "best seller" but for some reason it was never re-printed even though copies were selling for up to $300 dollars when they became available. I talk to Paul in the late 80's about re issuing it but at the time he wasn't interested. A couple of years ago he did, as a soft cover, and without the Knudsen foreward. From what I can tell there almost the same. There's very little about drag racing, some about NASCAR, and a lot about sportscar racing. From what you've said it's a book you need. Now used originals are going for $75 and up, I got a copy a year or so ago for $75. The re-print is $25-50. Go to Amazon.

PS: I was lent a copy in 1987 by Semon E. "Bunkie" Knudsen when I went to his house for an interview. I took it back to work, and Chevrolet generously let me Zerox it (all 350 or so pages), then I sent it back.

[gearhead409]

i was just jerking your chain, i knew what you ment.

[chevymusclecars]

Fran

You were close enough that I could find the book. The author iof the book is Paul Van Valkenburgh and the title is "Fourteen Years Of Racucous Silence, 1957-1970". If anyone is interested the ISBN for the book is 0768005299.

Thanks

Bill

[Fran Preve]

Bill: The cover of the book reads "Chevrolet = Racing....?" sub title "14 years of raucous silence". nevertheless, it's a good book on Chevrolet's racing in the 50's and '60's.

[chevymusclecars]

Fran

I ordered the book and will let you know what I think.

Bill

[Fran Preve]

CMC: good I'd like to know your opinion.

[oil4kids]

Hey Fran

I guess you never read Sex Lies and Superspeedways by Smokey Yunick- its a real eye opener-

you can go to his website and order it

http://www.smokeyyunick.com/

or read his other writing here

http://www.smokeyyunick.com/SampleChapters/LaCarrera.pdf

or listen to what Don Garlits says

http://216.79.131.98:554/06_DG_Intro.mp4



Mark