Engine won't start

[nomadci]

Engine turns but won't fire. Checked timing TDC, distributor mark, spark plug wiring sequence and gas flow. :mad: Getting spark at plugs. I get backfires through the carb and gas dripping from exhaust manifold (no pipes yet), had to put out fire with extinguisher from dripping gas igniting via misfire (starting engine for fisrt time section have an extinguisher on hand saved my engine) :? . You would think timing but after checking it 3 times? Using MSD ready to run w/blaster coil and resistor on firewall. I got that I'm missing something syndrome :help

[fatride]

Loose the resistor, MSD ready to run needs 12 volts. ;)

[64ss409]

Is there a chance you have it timed for no 6 instead of no 1? Distributor off 180?
Ron

[1911]

i would guess the dist is 180 off. when you check TDC are you pulling #1 plug to make sure your on compression stroke? with rotor pointing to #1 on cap, if points style dist. and timing mark at 0 or I prefer to static time and have the timing mark at 4-6 BTDC, rotate the dist housing until the points begin to open. if it's an electronic trigger then rotate the housing until the pick-up coil and pole piece "points" point at each other. However now that the engine has been flooded, pull the plugs and dry or replace them. blow compressed air in the cylinders to dry them, open the carb butterflies and same thing to dry the intake. Check the oil, do you smell gas? then change the oil and filter. The rings need oil for lube and to seal so a couple shots of oil in each cyl. to try to save the cyl wall finish and rings. make sure your on compression, static time, try again. just my opinion.

[Seon]

Take #1 plug out, wad a piece of paper to a small ball and place it in the spark plug hole.
Crank the engine until the wad of paper "pops" out. There's your number one, so set your distributor accordingly. Good luck.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Here's an easy way to check if your dist is in correctly.Remove the drivers side valve cover,and put your timining marks at TDC,your intake and exhaust valvles should both be closed.If there not rotate your crank 360 deg,then install your dist at #1.

[jester]

All of the above and I would get a set of manifords or headers to control the flame and the cold air from hitting those new valves. Just a thought. Good luck...

[JimKwiatkowski]

Loose the resistor, MSD ready to run needs 12 volts. ;)

I,m running a resistor left over from my Mallory Ign Sys.When I switched over to MSD I still kept it,should I remove it :dunno .I ran a voltage and here's what I have.At my battery (in the trunk) I have 12.35 Volts,the Ign switch side of the resistor has 11.35 Volts,the other side of the resistor I have my MSD 6L and my MSD Dist and has 11.25 Volts.Should I remove my resistor :dunno

[nomadci]

Yes TDC is with compression stroke on #1 cylinder, I can actually see the cylinder. I changed the oil and filter, dried the plugs, intake manifold and cylinders. I just put some oil (about 1/2 teaspoon) in each of the cylinders to lube them. I checked timing, plug wiring sequence and removed the resistor. I am waiting for a neighbor to come by and assist in trying to start engine given the circumstances. It does have exhaust manifolds on. I'll have to wait till Monday to have the pipes put on. It is pointing at #1 with cylinder at TDC and distributor rotor points to #1 with point coil on base housing pointing at 'point' 1.

[jester]

Do you have the plug wires in the distributer in a clock wise or counter clock wise direction?

I told you it was a dump question. :doh

[nomadci]

clockwise...but thanks for asking...there was a time..... :?

[fatride]

The resistor is for points type distributors, it has no use for the HEI type distributors.

[fatride]

nomadci, also check to see if the distributor is connected to the minus side of the coil! :dunno

[tmracing62]

nomadci - don't feel bad. We've all been there. This is all good advice. One thing - even though you're getting spark if you haven't tried this it might answer the question if ALL the plugs are firing - take a spare plug of the type and gap you are using and attach each plug wire to it one at a time (of course). If they all spark then you're good. The reason is MSD rotors can be bad right out of the box and a crack can cause erratic firing. Dist cap too can be a problem.

The spit ball method of finding TDC is interesting enough just to do it for entertainment. :rolleyes: :rofl

[jester]

OK, Lets get serious. If it is not timing than the cylinders are firing with the valves open , Do we have the valves adjusted correctly? Hydraulic or solid cam?

[nomadci]

Hydraulic, zero lash then a half turn with valve closed.

[JimKwiatkowski]

I always adjust hydraulic valves with zero lash,and no 1/2 turn :dunno Here's a tec tip on adjusting hydraulic valves from MR 409.

Setting hydraulic lifters:

Start with #1 cylinder. As exhaust valve starts to open (approximately .050), set #1 intake with a .005 feeler gauge; then tighten 1/4 turn.
As #1 intake valve opens fully and starts to close (approximately .050), set #1 exhaust with a .005 feeler gauge; then tighten 1/4 turn.
Repeat on other seven cylinders

[Bungy]

This may seem elementary but you never know. Firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Plugs are numbered from front to back 1-3-5-7 on drivers side and passenger side is 2-4-6-8. Tell us exactly how you determined TDC #1 was on compression stroke?

[nomadci]

Bungy, funny you should ask that. Originally I had the engine 'open' (intake off, timing chain cover off) and could visually see that #1 was at TDC. How ever when I installed the torque converter I had to turn the flywheel to install the bolts. This was done without the distributor in so TDC from 'open' changed. I set the timing mark to 0 which is what it was at TDC and checked the position of piston #1 as being all the way up (visable through the spark plug opening with light). However i did this more than once and on 2 occassions the distributor was 180 degress off...this even though the cylinder was up and the timing mark was at 0. :dunno Itried it both was to no avail. :? The firing order was correct.

[mpris]

The piston will ALWAYS be up with the timing mark on zero. Having the piston at TDC AND both valves closed is where you want to be when you drop in the distributor. You must have the number one cylinder on the compression stroke(both valves closed) when the rotor button is pointing to number one on the distributor cap. If at this time you rotate the engine one complete turn to the zero timing mark, you are on the exhaust stroke. If the distributor is pointing to number one at this time, the gas in the cylinder will be ignited and fire back through the open valves when you try to crank it.
So pull the valve cover off the drivers side and rotate the crank to zero timing mark and look at the valves for number one cylinder. If both valves are closed, the rotor button should be pointing at the plug wire in the cap which is going to the number one cylinder. If the rotor button is pointing toward the firewall with both valves closed and at zero timing mark, you have the distributor 180 degrees out. If this is the case, just pull the distributor up and rotate the rotor so it points to the number one cylinder and drop the distributor back in.
If I am telling you something you have already tried just ignore all of the above.

Poocho

[tmracing62]

Well actually I am serious Jester. I freshened this engine and used a brand new MSD rotor. It started right up, ran strong and then began randomly dropping cylinders. Raw gas and backfires when cranking, then running very badly. Confident that the distributor had not moved and this was not like any rotor problem I'd ever seen, I didn't check there. Wrong thinking as I found out. After checking all the other things you'd imagine and checking grounds, swapping the coil, then the ignition box, doing diagnostics on the ECU and more it just wouldn't work or even consistently fail. I was preparing to rewire out of desperation in hopes of finding something when it was suggested that I put a plug in each plug wire one at a time and watch the spark. Sometimes it would spark just fine and then stop, restart, stop. Or not fire at all or be just fine. Completely unpredictable. After the erratic spark, I changed only the rotor first, not the cap, and it worked fine.

The rotor in the picture is not the one that was bad, but the arrow points to the problem. That nub that holds the blade in place had been cracked around the bottom and had snapped off shortly after initial start up apparently. By not simply paying attention to the basic diagnostic steps, I wasted days. And this isn't the only problem I've had with MSD rotors. I'm not saying that this is the problem we're talking about, but taking a careful look for the "impossible" or unlikely, is so easy in this case that might be a good idea. That's all I'm sayin'.

[rcurrier44]

I am also betting you have it 180 off (remember 2 crank revolutions to one cam/dist revolution). Your simptoms are exactly what I just had last night (and on a couple of other motors in the past) when I started up a 348. I had thought it was on the compression stroke because the timing marks were at zero and when I pressured up the cylinder with compressed air I didn't get any airflow from the exhaust or intake. I am guessing that both valves are close enough to being closed on the exhaust/intake upstroke that they are basicly closed. All it did was shoot out the intake.

What I did to verify it was off was to pop the dist cap off and put a compression guage on #1. I turned the engine over with the starter and saw that the compression guage spiked when the rotor was 180 off from #1. So I pulled the wires and put them back on 180 from the way they are stock. Retimed and it fired right up no problem. Witch is amazing because the engine hasen't ran in 10-12 years, no choke, with a homemade carb adaptor, and is being fed by a Holley that was set up for a RX7 rotery engine!

[64ss409]

One thing to remember when installing timing chain/gears on any Chevy V8, when the marks are correctly lined up, (the mark on crank gear up and the mark on the cam gear down) it is on TDC compression stroke on number 6, not no. 1. You have to give the crank 1 full revolution, line up the balancer mark and then it is on no. 1. The mark on the cam gear will then be straight up, the mark on the crank straight up, and both valves will then be closed and piston up on compression on no. 1.
Ron

[348NUT]

A couple years ago, I got a rebuilt 350 back from the engine builder supposedly ready to drop in the distrbutor and start. I did so and lots of backfires and frustration later I found it was 180 degrees off :mad: I think he had his kids working in the shop that day. Oh well, Ive said it before, Live and Learn. Now If I could just Remember too, then I'd be in good shape :D NUT

[64ss409]

Aaron
I think that happens a lot. A lot of times people think when the timing gears are lined up for installation, they think is ready to fire on number one and drop in the distributor and set it for no. 1. But it is 180 off.

But anyone that double checks by any one of the previosly mentioned ways will catch that. I like the one about putting a wad of paper in the hole until it blows it out. I have not heard that one before. I have used my thumb over the spark plug hole while someone else cranks the the engine over. Or check no. 1 valves.

Ron

[nomadci]

Jester and Jim, :clap
The timing was correct, although I learned a great deal about setting the timing the culprit was the valves being slightly open. That little half turn after zero lash was just enough to loose compression. I understand you can start the motor with the rods a little loose but not with them a little tight. I went back to zero lash on all the rods and she let out a MIGHTY roar. Thanks for all the input guys. Now I can clean her up and put her 409 badges on...she's ready. :love
Scorpion roller rockers ...........$275
MSD distributor and coil..........$425
Rechromed valve covers.........$250
Hearing the roar of a 409 BIG Block for the first time...PRICELESS :brow

[jester]

Enough said, Good luck with that beast. :clap :clap

[JimKwiatkowski]

Enough said, Good luck with that beast. :clap :clap

Me to and have many cruising miles :) .By the what's our prize :dunno :rofl :rofl

[64ss409]

That little half turn after zero lash was just enough to loose compression. I am glad you got it running. That is a great sound, isn't it.

Now I have another question. I have not had hydraulic lifters hold the valve open with 1/2 a turn from zero lash. I have set most at 3/4 turn on street engines. Why did the hydraulic lifters not self compenstate? Has this happened to others?

Just curious.
Ron

[mpris]

Jim, same here. On most of the cars I have had with hydraulic lifts I have gone down 3/4 turns and have never had a problem. I have a set of Crane rollers in my car now and set them down 1/2 turn with no problem. I don't believe it will hurt anything at zero lash, but I'll bet it will be pretty noisy.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Here's a possible answer,I've worked at a F&&D Dealership for over 20 years and I've got alot parts boxs misslabled.It's possible that nomadci got a box of solid lifters :dunno

[jester]

Here's a possible answer,I've worked at a F&&D Dealership for over 20 years and I've got alot parts boxs misslabled.It's possible that nomadci got a box of solid lifters :dunno
Unless you flatted the lifter by over tightening at somepoint before your adjustment or didn't rotate the engine to close the valves before adjustment.
There are many a reason . They are all moot now. the engine in running that's all that matters. I think I would adjust the valves hot before I capped that puppy. That's just me. Good luck. John

[nomadci]

Yes they are noisey.....and adjustments are forth coming. The cam I got (custom comp from Aubrey) had directions with it :deal to set the lifters at zero lash with a half turn and having installed hydraulics before with 3/4 turns I found it curious that the valves would loose compression at 1/2 turn....which is why it honestly didn't even occur to me to check the compression. :bang The lifters were new out of the box without any prior adjustments before setting. Honestly I'm just glad the motor is running :D , but curious too about the lifters. :dunno Stock with new double springs to match the cam.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Try this method of adjusting your valves,this came out of MR 409'S tec section.I use this method with my roller cam.

Setting hydraulic lifters:

Start with #1 cylinder. As exhaust valve starts to open (approximately .050), set #1 intake with a .005 feeler gauge; then tighten 1/4 turn.
As #1 intake valve opens fully and starts to close (approximately .050), set #1 exhaust with a .005 feeler gauge; then tighten 1/4 turn.
Repeat on other seven cylinders[/QUOTE]