Harrells Z11 409 D-qd [Archive] - 348-409.com Info Exchange

Fran Preve

03-15-2005, 03:34 PM

I assume we're speaking here of 1962 cars and 1962 only. The description of what was legal in FX is for AHRA not NHRA (or completely wrong). I've posted in the other topic or a topic on 1962 aluminum cars the weights of A/FX, B/FX and C/FX, and any comments I make or made pertain to NHRA only.

Aluminum was only legal in FX classes up to the NHRA Summernationals at least. According to Colvins book the "swept back" exhaust manifolds were put in PRODUCTION late in the 1962 model run. This may be true but doesn't have anything to do with racing as headers were legal.

Tonawanda wouldn't have built and shipped any "special" 409's and then shipped them to assembly plants for the reasons Verne gave. Besides which these "A/FX parts were legal when put on as over the counter parts.

Go back to the fact Nicholson (?) or Strickler (?) pulled the aluminum parts off the Bel Air and put them on the B/FX car when they found they weren't legal in 1962 in Super Stock.

Stock class was determined by HORSEPOWER to weight (NADA shipping weight).

FX was determined by CUBIC INCHES to weight (scale weight as there was no NADA shipping weight for aluminum cars as none were built on the line and certified with the AMA).

It just so happens the 409 had 409 cubic inches AND 409 horsepower, this causes some confusion.

The weight break between A/FX and B/FX was 8.99 and 9.00, do the math.

Modified Production (NHRA) didn't come into NHRA until 1966 maybe 1967 and has nothing to do with 1962, as far as the AHRA is concerned I'd need to see a 1962 rule book to make any confident comments.

Richard and I have beat the aluminum front end assembly line built car idea to death with both giving MANY reasons why this was MOST PROBABLY not done.

Verne wants to see it determined one way or the other, so do many others, but the PROOF of this has been lost. Anything that came out today would be suspect simply because so many people want to see this as a fact.

Richard, as usual we agree, just that you use two words, I use twenty.

MK IISS

03-15-2005, 05:09 PM

Fran: We don't agree on everything. How about eight words instead of two.

No green valve covers in nineteen sixty two. :rofl

oil4kids

03-15-2005, 09:39 PM

Richard

a guy in my high school (1972) had a dead bone stock white 62 4 door 409 dual quads with a stick and had those puke green valve covers on them- it was his dads unmolested car so i think the green covers was a Regular production item

wrench

03-15-2005, 10:58 PM

Fran Preve

03-16-2005, 12:24 AM

4 doors were obviously police cars or cars bought for high speed use. The BJ car was special ordered for some guy who wanted a high performance 4 door (there's a long documented story behind that car). In 1962 the 409 was only available with a 3 or 4 speed, in 1963 you could get a 340hp with an automatic.

Oil4: you have to understand, while you and I have seen unmolested 1962's with a silver valve cover with a slight greenish tinge MKII hasn't. But then you have to understand HE'E FREAKIN' COLOR BLIND!. Ummm, er, I didn't mean to shout.

MK IISS

03-16-2005, 07:50 AM

At the 1962 NHRA Nationals there was a factory backed, "purpose built" 4-dr '62 406 Ford competing in , if I remember correctly, B/S. It was defeated, for the class win, by a 1960 BelAir 320 horse 348.

Phil Reed

03-16-2005, 09:37 AM

I think I have posted this before but I have a set of NOS 62 409 valve covers and they have definately have a green tint. Probably more green than silver.

Phil Reed

03-16-2005, 09:47 AM

I tried to upload 2 pictures but they will not upload. It says that they are uploaded but won't come up on the screen.

HELP?????????????

bobs409

03-16-2005, 11:26 AM

Are you by chance clicking "preview" after uploading? If so, that is the problem.

Bob

Phil Reed

03-16-2005, 12:59 PM

I found my upload problem. It said that I had already uploaded the same 2 pictures for a different thread. Can you post here whatever it needs to be so everone can click on it to see?

Especially Richard.... since he thinks he's color blind!!! Or maybe just because Fran keeps telling him he is!!!! :rofl :rofl

The thread is NOS 62 409 Valve covers

Thanks!!! Guess this tells me that once you have uploaded a picture....you can not upload it again later in a different thread.

MK IISS

03-16-2005, 02:11 PM

I saw several (including Dave Strickler's) and worked on a couple '62 409s at my Uncle's dealership when they were new in 1962. All the valve covers I saw in 1962 were silver...not green..not green tinted but silver. I don't really care how many times someone has gone over this before. I also have pictures. I recently received a picture of covers, with decals, taken by a friend who collects 409s and whom I consider an expert. They are not green or have a green tint. They are silver or you could say argent. I admit there are "green" covers all over the place now, some are "claimed" to be original paint, some restored. Again...the 409s I saw, when new or nearly new, did not have green tint covers. Does anyone really think Chevrolet intended these valve covers to have a green tint?

MK IISS

03-16-2005, 05:29 PM

Fran: Since you were involved in production, I have question. Isn't it possible Chevy used more than one paint supplier for the '62 409 Valve covers? The cars I saw were most likely early ones. Maybe not all were the same.

real61ss

03-16-2005, 07:17 PM

Or, did Chevrolet use more than one vendor for the valve covers? if so, there's your answer. If the valve covers were made by more than one vendor, chances are the vendors didn't use the same paint supplier. If that's not it, then I'm bet'n a little gremlin snuck in there while Fran wasn't look'n and poured some green paint the silver!!!! :rofl :stooges :rofl

oil4kids

03-16-2005, 11:27 PM

Hey Richard

here are those puke green covers or green tinged or whatever I saw years ago i think the silver oxidizes and fades and the green pigment stays

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4536197742&category=34202

Fran Preve

03-17-2005, 12:57 AM

We wear green tinted glasses Richard.

Phil: I agree with you, and if you saw the ones I have restored by Super Sport Engineering ( a 409 restorer out of Colorado, you may have heard of him from years ago), you'd agree with me as to OUR description of the color. I too have seen ORIGINAL unrestored cars and like you see them as a "greenish tinge'.

Don't know why, but Chevy used a GLOSS silver that resisted oil and gas, not a flat, not a semi gloss, but a GLOSS silver because of what I just said. rather than think a straight silver is original, could it be THOSE were re-painted?.

And as far as heat discoloring a straight silver, it would turn a clear gloss yellowish, not greenish. If it did at all.

Fran Preve

03-17-2005, 01:05 AM

Real: You could be right, but I don't think so, we may have done the paint right at Tonawanda come to think of it. We put the drippers in the valve covers, and I know for a fact we sent valve covers out to a local palter to be plated in the 70's, maybe the 60's too.

I know you could get the 409 in any body style.

You would have had to have been a VERY serious and dedicated drag racer to buy a car JUST so it fit in a class in 1962/63/64. Besides which, NHRA changed weight breaks often back then and tyou'd never know what you bought for B/S would be IN B/S the next year or best for the class either. Sorry if I sound skeptical of that story.

Hemmings has these oddball 4 doors every month or so, and Fords are more common than Chevy's. But then Ford was considered more a "cop car" back then too.

Fran Preve

03-17-2005, 01:11 AM

Oil4: maybe they repainted the valve covers before they put on the FOIL 409 stickers (in the incorrectplace)?.

That said, I'm watching this one, what do you think it will bring?. Consider the fact it has a correct dated coded tranny too.

My guess, over 10 and under 12.

jim_ss409

03-17-2005, 01:03 PM

Here's a link to Phils NOS 409 Valve Covers thread. http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2985

Mr.Jimmy

03-17-2005, 02:02 PM

Someone even got Brad at Showcars thinking that this is the right color so now he has spaycans of the green paint to sell..... :dunno

mpris

03-17-2005, 03:58 PM

i don't mean to up set the apple cart but your picture of the 409 engine on ebay has tripower 348 valve covers on it.

gearhead409, I noticed that the wire looms for the two wires on the valve covers appears to be in the wrong place. Should be down at the front edge of the chevy emblem for a 409 and not up in the center of the valve cover. You are correct in that the 348 tri-power covers are like the ones in the picture. Sure looks like they have been on there a long time doesn't it?

poocho

walkerheaders

03-17-2005, 04:58 PM

Dont know if anyone will care.........but when you mix paint for any Harley davidson Silver painted engine side covers......you HAVE TO mix in some green or it'll never look right. been there........XXXX that.

jim_ss409

03-17-2005, 09:04 PM

I just came across an add from Show Cars that says they got the paint formula from a Chevrolet engineer. :dunno http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46096&item=7962220327&rd=1

Quickshift409

03-17-2005, 10:34 PM

I am with Richard on this one. Back in the day the valve covers were silver.Never saw a green tint until 7 or 8 years ago.
QS409

Mr.Jimmy

03-18-2005, 12:20 AM

Just remember to take ShowCars with a grain of salt..... :rofl

Fran Preve

03-18-2005, 01:49 AM

Gearhead: It's not MY picture.

It hasn't been in the last 7 or 8 years, my 62's were done by an expert restorer of W block engines, particularly 409's, back in 1986 or 87. And the cars I saw with the stock, unrestored 409 engines (two at the Supercar Showdown in 86 or 87 and one in Floyd Garrets garage) all has the greenish tinge on the valve covers.

Phil Reed, Brad at Showcars, the guy I used in Colorado I would consider EXPERTS, especially Phil and Brad, you'd kinda think they would KNOW rather than THINK what shade of silver is correct.

I've never seen an unrestored 1962 valve cover that was a straight silver, ever.

It's curious walkerheaders is saying HD uses a green tinged silver even today (or recently) maybe there's a reason for that.

MK IISS

03-18-2005, 07:51 AM

Fran: I really don't want to argue about this any longer but I know what I saw in 1962. As far as "experts" know this or that.... and restore 409 valve covers with green paint all I can say is expert restorers have been restoring 55-57 valve covers for years with painted "Chevrolet" script in silver, black, etc. This is not correct. They didn't come that way new from the factory. So your argument about the knowledge and correctness of so called "experts" does not hold water.

In 1963 I bought a set of, new in the box, '62 covers for my '63 because I didn't want to mess up the original chrome covers when I welded in breathers. These valve covers were argent/silver in color, not green. If I had kept them untouched in the box for 42 years maybe they would have a green tint now. Due to the varied degree of green tint in original untouched 409s leads me to believe the color did change over the years.

If y'all want to believe, when new in 1962, 409s had green valve covers then so be it. I have a friend who sells used cars that would love to do business with you.

Mr.Jimmy

03-18-2005, 11:01 AM

Good thread Richard...

Just remember about the different batches of paint used....How many batches they really really used. Think about how many times someone has tried to touch up your cars...with the same can of paint even. Doesn't match 100% all the time. Wisha shoulda coulda.... With being one of the largest paint distributors in a 1000 mile radius, we see this problem daily. People calling, complaining about this and that. There are way too many varibles. Think about the different suppliers that just the paint co used.. How the paint people had to make it up. Color matching is an art...

MK IISS

03-18-2005, 12:22 PM

Mr.Jimmy: I think there is a strong possibility the early '62 409s had the same argent/silver paint as the '61 409s...the later 62s must have the paint with the slight green tint which, in my opinion, turns even greener with age under some conditions. I had the privilage of seeing two new '61 409 crate engines which my Uncle (dealer) ordered for customers. The '61s had very light argent/silver color valve covers, much different than the photos on this tread.

The '62s I saw at the race track, such as Dave Strickler's, were the lighter silver with the decals. I don't believe they were repainted because the paint is blisterd where breathers are welded on.

I know what you mean by paint not matching. I had to have the door on my '63 repainted twice, after a small repair was made, even though it was white.

Fran Preve

03-18-2005, 07:26 PM

:evil :cuss Hmmmmmmm, could the valve covers ordered from GM parts be different from those put on at the factory?. Different source?. Would anyone who repainted 62 valve covers have known about the type of paint, shade, tone used by Chevy at the engine plant during the 1962 model run?. They didn't then and then never have over all these years.

Go back to what I said about there needing to be a gloss to help prevent staining by oil and fuel. This may have been a problem with the 1961's and early 1962's and causing Chevy to change the formula adding a gloss that added the tint. Don't know, can't say, but I'll tell you whut, ffff you wanna know go find a set of the engine assembly manual used by Chevy to build the 1962 409 (it's just like the one used by the assembly plant to assemble the car). In it will be the part numbers for the paint by various suppliers. Don't ask ME, 'cause I don't have one, if I did the question would have been answered. I DO have them for the big block and small block, but not every year.

This isn't a contest, and I'm not an expert on what they looked like, but I think I have the right to say what I believe from what I saw. I won't change my mind. But I'll end with this, if two recognized experts, Phil Reed and Brad from Showcars, say there's a greenish tinge, I have to go along with them not because they agree with me but because THEY"VE BEEN SEEING MANY OF THEM FOR 30 YEARS!. :bang See what you made me do, and I promised to change my attitude and calm down. I'll go now and take a pill...................................

fiftiesbob

03-18-2005, 11:07 PM

Hi to all:

I really enjoy this site, but I am not one who usually responds,
particularly to conterversial subjects. I however, would like to add
the following to this discussion about valve covers.

I worked at two Chevrolet Dealerships from 1961 to 1963 and
serviced many 348 and 409 vehicles, along with owning and
racing them.

I can certainly remember the first two 1962 409/409 SS vehicles delivered
to the dealership which I personally pre-serviced for delivery. The valve
covers were a gloss silver with a light green tint as all the other original
ones that I have seen, serviced and owned over all these years.

I would also take this time to thank all the people on this site for sharing
their personal experiences about these great vehicles they certainly bring
back so many great memories.

Thanks again
fiftiesbob

oil4kids

03-18-2005, 11:33 PM

Welcome to the site Bob

There are some real Chevrolet historians on this site with a lot of W experience
I learn something new every visit, and Im glad Chevy added a little green to the silver covers- otherwise we would have nothing to argue about

oil4kids

03-27-2005, 12:05 AM

Heres a nice article that Drag Racer magazine did on Dick Harrell MAy 2005

http://69.94.82.218/forum/showthread.php?t=262&page=1&pp=10

oldskydog

03-31-2005, 12:25 AM

Im not going to get in on either side of the green vs silver debate but I will offer another observation. One of my other hobbies is to restore old Cushman scooters. The engines on those were painted a silver that had a slight greenish tint and the closest thing available to it could be bought from a John Deere parts dealer. Is it possible that this was a fairly standard industrial paint that was used by many manufacturers for its heat and oil resistant properties? Just a thought.

Fran Preve

03-31-2005, 11:42 PM

Dog: you may have hit it, we bought the valve covers from an outside supplier, maybe it WAS a standard industrial type paint. Would solve the problem.

MK IISS

04-01-2005, 07:24 AM

Fran:

That's it !!!...That's it !!! John Deere painted the valve covers !!

Fran Preve

04-02-2005, 03:15 PM

:evil See Dickie, ask the question and eventually you'll get the RIGHT answer!.

MK IISS

04-02-2005, 05:44 PM

Fran: I know...I know, I just keep learning new stuff from you guys. Green valve covers, 63s with factory installed '61 corvette engines, powerglide cars with 3-spd man. trans/overdrive coded rear ends, etc, etc.

real61ss

04-02-2005, 06:55 PM

"One of my other hobbies is to restore old Cushman scooters. The engines on those were painted a silver that had a slight greenish tint and the closest thing available to it could be bought from a John Deere parts dealer."

Oldskydog,

Cushman scooters.........I got one of those and I'd never thought about it but the silver paint that they not onle used on the motor but also on the wheels might be close to the color that some claim is correct on the 409 valve covers. Check the front wheel on my scooter. That paint is available from Dennis Carpenter.

Fran Preve

04-05-2005, 01:22 AM

Dickie: go back to what I said a few posts ago, we BOUGHT the 1962 valve covers from an outside vendor. If there was an industrial silver back then used by more than a few manufacturers, and the silver these guys are talking about has a greenish tint it would be the same paint?. Another point, the parts others are talking about also have to be heat and oil resistant.

Let's see, gloss finish, oil and heat resistant, used on industrial parts but with a slight greenish tinge. Nah, that makes sense...........................

PS: If you wanted a 4:11 gear for your 1961 283 powerglide wouldn't the rear end out of a 283 overdrive car work?. I mean, that's the OD ratio. I don't know if this car your talking about came from the factory that way, but didn't they offer optional axle ratio's back then?. I mean, respectfully, Richard, the OD axle ratio was 4.11 standard. And 3 speed overdrives were quite common, back in the day.

MK IISS

04-05-2005, 08:31 AM

Fran: I concede to the argument that '62 409s had green tint valve cover paint. Too many people have seen them for it not to be true. I still don't believe the 61s and maybe the very early '62 were that way though.

If you want to believe you could order a factory built 283 Powerglide car (with A/C yet) with a factory installed 4.11 rear end with a man. trans./overdrive rear axle code stamped on it....well be my guest.

Lately I've noticed the belief, by many, that you could order just about any combinition of options you wanted if you were willing to plunk down the money. This, in most cases, is simply not true. Chevrolet had many concerns such as warranty claims and the need to protect customers from themselves. By "protecting customers from themselves" I mean you have the wackos out there who thought they knew more than GM did about building cars and would spec out a new car that would be unreliable and/or unsafe and a big headache for the dealer.

Fran Preve

04-06-2005, 01:23 AM

Richard: the 1961 409 most probably did have straight silver valve covers, but when they went into production they sourced the valve covers out and who ever they bought them from probably used the same industrial silver others were using which had a greenish tinge. Too many people are coming up with a heat resistant greenish tinged silver used on other products needing this type of paint.

You would know best, at least better than me, what rear axle ratio's were available optionally from Chevy in 1961. If in fact the 4.11 ratio was an option then my idea of the assembly plant throwing in a 4.11 axle from a OD car in makes sense, it was handy, and there were many OD cars built in the early years.

True story: In 1985 I ordered a 1985 Corvette with 3.07 gears. I was told they couldn't sell any more and if I wanted my car I had to OK dropping it. I said OK. After the car came in and I was driving it the RPM's at 60 mph seemed to say it was in fact a 3.07 and not the standard 2.73 (the 3.07 axle was NOT on my window sticker!). At a later date when we had the car in the air, PENCILED on the rear axle gear case was "3.07". And in fact it WAS a 3.07. But no records at Chevrolet that they built it with that axle. Why?. Beacsue it affected the overall EPA gas mileage standard!. they could build only so many and my car was built in May of 1985 after they used up their "allotment".

The question I have is, did the customer who ORDERED the car want 4.11's?. If so the fact that it has an axle stamped for an OD application isn't a surprise or out of line.

And I agree with you completely that GM didn't build any "oddball" cars just because the customer wanted it. It simply didn't happen. If the option said "requires xxxx" then they only built it with the xxxx option (s). If it said, "not available with xxxx" then you couldn't get it. On the other hand if the customer was adament about it and got pissy then if the dealer could add the option at the DEALERSHIP. Then some people THOUGHT it came that way "from the factory".

But then I've just been reviewing ALL my old GM records to correct them or sort them out and I stumbled across the AMA specs for the 1969 COPO Camaro's. According to what Chevrolet told the AMA you could get them with a 3 speed, 4 speed or automatic. A COPO 427 1969 Camaro with a THREE SPEED!, of course none were built.

oil4kids

04-06-2005, 10:36 AM

. A COPO 427 1969 Camaro with a THREE SPEED!, of course none were built.

You know Fran, My cousin ordered a 1966 Belair (IN 1966) with a 396 because there was some kind of shortage of 327 325 hp cars in 66. But He bought it on a shoe string budget and ordered a 3speed manual. He got a call back from the dealer saying they didnt know if they could build a 396 with a 3 speed. Anyway, He ended up getting a dark blue belair witha ford(Dearborn) type 3 speed trans and column shifter- factory- when he went to convert the shifter to a flood shift, in 67 no one had a correct shifter. I heard Pontiac FBirds also used this trans in 67

Of course they made tons of Police cars just like this but had powerglides in them.

Fran Preve

04-06-2005, 11:59 PM

Yes they did, and not many people realize if you ordered a SS396 in 66/67 you didn't want a 4 speed or automatic, they came standard with a Ford 3 speed (and floor shift).

The thing to look for is the "requires optional transmission", which would mean you MUST order a 4 speed or automatic.

I had fun taking the Chevrolet car and option production sheets, adding up the optional transmissions, the subracting that from # of cars to get 3 speed production.

wrench

04-07-2005, 01:29 AM

they came standard with a Ford 3 speed (and floor shift)
I must say this sounds like an April Fool's joke gone mad. :rofl

So, how'd they do it? Special bellhousing? Adaptor plate between the tranny and bellhousing? :help

Have I just been 'reeled' in? :dunno

;) :cool:

real61ss

04-07-2005, 07:51 AM

Pontiac used the Ford 3 speed transmission in 1965 also, we used to race Pontiac's in the sixties on the NASCAR roundy round tracks and back then you bought a car and built the race car from scratch. We ordered a new '65 Pontiac Catalina 2 dr ht, 421 with the 3 speed transmission, heater delete with a factory floor shift. When we took delivery of the car, the first thing we noticed was the transmission. First thing I remember noticing was, the transmission is laying over on it's side (the Pontiac transmission leaned to the left) and hey, this is a Ford transmission!!!
Man!!!! that was 40 years ago, how come I can remember stuff like that but can't remember my wifes birthday!!!!! :doh

wrench

04-07-2005, 12:07 PM

Man!!!! that was 40 years ago, how come I can remember stuff like that but can't remember my wifes birthday!!!!! :dohSeeing a Ford transmission in a GM car causes what it called a conditional traumatic memory response. Those situations get permanantly in engraved into memory and they tend to last forever. ;) Scientists can't figure out why the trauma of forgetting a spousal birthday doesn't work identically in the brain. The memory fades and the next time the birthday rolls around - you'll have forgotten it again. Then the trauma starts all over. :rofl Perhaps if she whacked you real hard over the head with a gearshift lever from the car it would trigger the conditional traumatic memory response? :rofl :rofl

:D :D

real61ss

04-07-2005, 12:36 PM

"Perhaps if she whacked you real hard over the head with a gearshift lever from the car it would trigger the conditional traumatic memory response?"

you just might be right!!!!!! :D

oil4kids

04-07-2005, 02:04 PM

Im glad Im not the only earthling to see a dearborn ford 3 speed manual behind a chevy big block from the factory.

Its almost as shocking as seeing a olds diesel v8 in a 80 caprice from the factory. Well on second thought, maybe not.

Fran Preve

04-08-2005, 10:58 AM

Actually it was a Borg-Warner T-85 transmission that was also used in Fords and Mopars.

It was a Borg-Warner T-85 heavy duty 3 speed same as used in some Chrysler applications.

In 1965 Pontiac started using the Borg-Warner T-85 heavt duty 3 speed.

Ford was able to used a 3 speed overdrive transmission behind their big blocks by using the Borg-Warner T-85, a heavy duty 3 speed also available with OD.

Because GM was aligned with Saginaw, and Saginaw was a relatively weak transmission GM couldn't over overdrive behind anything above the 2 barrel 283 V-8.

Saginaw and Muncie were aligned with GM, Borg-Warner was an independant.

Back in the day a 4 speed cost about $188 dollar which would be the same as a $1000 dollars today (about 7% of the price of a GTO). A surprising number of guys could live with an all synco 3 speed and saave some money.

bluescreamer

04-08-2005, 02:17 PM

Fran
My brother and I order a 1961 Pontica Catalina Conv. in 1960 to run "B" Stock
It was a 389/348 hp three speed The trans was a T-85 it had a long tail shaft
housing. I still have the main shaft out of that trans in my garage.
I also beleive that trans was used in the 3/4 ton Chevy pickups, with
no tail shaft housing the emg brake was mounted on the back of trans.
Allen

MK IISS

04-08-2005, 03:15 PM

Fran: Overdrive was also a RPO on the 4-bbl 283 (Super Turbo-Fire).

Fran Preve

04-09-2005, 02:53 PM

I should have stopped at only behind the 283, but I have sales brouchures that say only the 170hp engine (I assumed that was a 2 barrel).

The 3 speed I was referring to was the all-syncro 3 speed (which meant you could downshift into low without grinding a pound.

Ronnie Russell

04-09-2005, 03:21 PM

The ad referred to in earlier threads was my ad. Be glad to answer any questions about this engine-trans. sale. With all due respect from "I was there group" In 61-62, you could add or delete practically anything. Why were those 61 348 valve covers(non-drippers)? This was extremely early 62 Engine, Did they run short on 409 valve covers in Jan.62? This car was ordered without factory tach. Why? This is a 4dr ht. car The owner ordered exactly what he wanted . There were no rules-order or delete. 63 year became more structured. This meant this, that meant that. 61-62 was crazy, you all have seen mis-stamped castings. I have learned one important fact. Never say all 62-409s had this part and never say -you couldnt order a 409 without this part. The arguement will go on without me , thats why I race and dont restore.

MK IISS

04-09-2005, 06:26 PM

Fran: What year sales brochure are you referring to?

Ronnie Russell

04-10-2005, 02:42 PM

Sat. nite, in the chat room, I made the statement that Dickie Harrell had a z11 Chevy II. Barry Taylor confirmed that, but after trying to dust off memory, Barry had doubts to whether car was 409 or z11. Barry has a picture of the car , on trailer, in front of his dads shop in Garland, Texas. Barry ,at some point in future , will dig out all old pictures , and see if car was lettered. I talked to Buddy Taylor many years ago about Harrells cars and I have the memory of Buddy saying it was a z11 drivetrain. The more I think about the subject , the more I doubt myself. I shouldnt have made a statement I couldnt back up with proof. Hopefully Barrys pictures will confirm or deny the question. As soon as I can I will post pics. of Buddy and his z11 Impala and the Dickie Harrell car. If the Harrell car is 409 and not z11, I sincerely apologize for mistake. We will see.

SS425HP

04-10-2005, 02:52 PM

I'm pretty sure Dick put the Z-11 stuff in a 64 Chevelle. Can't swear as to the Chevy ll. There is a good Harrell web site. Kept up by his daughter Valerie.

http://69.94.82.218/forum/index.php?

Not sure this will work, but trhis is the address shown on the web site.

Sure is a lot of info on Dick. He was a CLASS ACT.

Fred

Fran Preve

04-11-2005, 01:29 AM

My one friend: OK, here's what I came up with really quickly. 1960 Chevrolet salesman's sales brouchure. Overdrive available with 6, Turbofire V8 (283) and Super Turbofire (283 4 barrel). No other engines. I assume 1961 is the same because of same engine line up. :doh You were right. I just sold my 1961 shop manual two weeks ago, but I have a 1962 supplement. In 1962, according to the shop manual the overdrive was only available with the six and 170 hp 283, I'm sure if I dug out the sales brouchure it would be the same. there was no 4 barrel 283 in fullsize cars after 1961 (It returned to the 1964 Chevelle). :clap I was right (62 and later).

As far as I know the 265 assembly line 409's in 1961 had silver painted non dripper valve covers. In 1962 we bought them from an outside supplier and were, let's say "industrial silver", and had drippers (as did solid lifter 409's in 1963/4/5).
I don't know if Tonawanda started making their own chrome valve covers in 1963 but we DID make the Mark IV big block valve covers and had a spot welder and jig set up on or near the trim line where we made dripper valve covers. We sent them out locally for chrome plating (Marlett Plating, Buffalo, NY). The chrome plating on 409 and Mark IV valve covers was the cheaper "bumper" style, nickle base and chrome over rather than the more expensive "show' chrome where copper was used. Bumper chrome, nickle/chrome, has a glodish tone, show chrome with copper has a blueish tone.

oil4kids

04-11-2005, 09:18 PM

Yes Harrell did have a Z11 409-427 64 Nova and Im building a replica of it. Was originally black then the traditional Harrell red color The car was originally a Bill thomas car with a small block then Harrell gave it the z11 treatment with a stroker crank, and pontiac rear-
he didnt have the car too long- he kept doing enromous wheelstands and rolled the car after a few months- then he borrowed the Sad Sack II Nova from Mcneely- Ihave a pic of the Nova with a photo of the Z11 in the engine bay- That car was pretty famous- he even raced Richard Petty with the 43Jr Hemi

look at

http://69.94.82.218/forum/showthread.php?t=91&highlight=retribution

SS425HP

04-11-2005, 09:36 PM

Mark, I thought you were doing that car. I was hoping you would jump in here.
I knew McNeeley had a Falcon, but didn't know about the Chev ll.

Those were the good old days. Run what you brung. Just wish we had been smart enough to join in on the fun.

Fred

real61ss

04-12-2005, 07:22 AM

Fran wrote: "As far as I know the 265 assembly line 409's in 1961 had silver painted non dripper valve covers"

I would agree with this, the 61 409 motor that I purchased from 348nut had what certainly appeared to be one original valve cover, it was dinged up pretty good but there were no drippers and it was painted silver. There was no doubt that it was silver but the paint was beyond determining if the now famous "greenish tint" was there.

I don't want to rekindle the arguemenr but I wish the green tint thing could be determined because soon I'll be ready to paint the 61 motor.

Fran Preve

04-13-2005, 12:31 AM

Tom: Email me privately I have an important question on 1961 409's.

Paint it silver, not the 1962 "industrial silver". Use decals NOT FOIL!. After you paint them straight silver, then clear coat them with a heat resistant paint. Put the decals on AFTER the clear coat!. You could leave off the clear but I'd be worried about discoloring or oil/gas stains down the road. That's the whole reason for the "industrial" silver, it was formulated to resist staining and hold up under heat.

MK IISS

04-13-2005, 04:03 AM

The 409 engines I saw , new in 1961, did not have any decals or stickers....anywhere. Not on the valve covers or on the air cleaner. I remember the silver/argent paint on the valve covers as kind of cheap looking without any gloss. The silver color paint reminded me of the silver painted 1958 Impala wheels.

real61ss

04-13-2005, 08:13 AM

Fran, you've got mail :)

Richard,
I was also under the impression that there were no decals on the 61 valve covers. I have been trying to find out what if any decal should be on the air cleaner, what did it say and where was it located. I've talked to several people that I thought might know, one person who is very knowledgable on the cars says there was a decal on the air cleaner, he knows someone who has an original and I'm trying to get a picture of it.

I also wonder if the air cleaner was originaly made by the vendor or did the second snorkel get added by Chevrolet. These dual snorkel air cleaners were first used (I think) on the 320 hp motors (correct me if I'm wrong) and that would mean there were very few used up until the 380 and 400 hp 409's came along. This means only the 320 and 340 hp motors had them and there weren't a lot of those motors sold. Most of them that I've seen are home made (somebody added a second snorkel), the one that I have looks pretty good on the outside but if you look inside, the workmanship on one snorkel is different from the other, you can tell one is original and the other was added.

MK IISS

04-13-2005, 08:45 AM

Tommy: The first '61 409s I saw were crate engines, there wasn't a carb or air cleaner. These are the engines I'm basing the valve cover color on. later on I saw a '61 car with a 409. The owner claimed the engine was factory installed but I have no way of knowing if he was telling the truth. The air cleaner looked identical to the 348/340. One of my best friends had a '61 Biscayne 348/340 so I'm very familiar with what that engine looked like. Just looking at a '61 409....it looked like a 348/340 except for the silver valve covers and the passenger side dipstick. This is, of course, without comparing cast #'s, etc. Just the visual aspects. There wasn't any other visual difference...no decals, etc. With the 409 air cleaner removed the larger series AFB had a different air horn so the base of the air cleaner may have been different. The crate engines, I saw, had unpainted intake manifolds. I can remember some auto magazine test articles that said the 409 intake was painted. They must have come both ways.

Phil Reed

04-13-2005, 09:48 AM

Maybe we should start another thread on this subject!!!

Everything I have ever seen or researched, the 61 409 valve covers were painted the same "color" as the 62 409 drippers. The 61's did not have any decals on the valve covers or cleaner designating the cubic inch displacement. The air cleaner had a filter replacement decal but not a 409 decal. The 61 "409" valve covers were really 348 valve covers. The 2-row spark plug wire holder was spot welded up in the ridge on the 348 valve covers, not down by the bowtie on the later 409's. See the picture of the Hot Rodding the Chevy V8 below. On the cover of this book, the valve cover color looks to be the same as the color of the intake manifold. I have never seen a real 61 409 valve cover in person but I have seen 62's.

Keep in mind, this same picture heats up the debate.....what was the "real" 61 409 carb. This shows a front fuel inlet...that would mean the 3012-S or the 3221-S. But everything I have found or seen listed in the parts book is the correct one is the 3270-S, which was a left rear fuel inlet. I was told that back in the 60's, there was a 90 day period from the time any article was written until publication. So the pictures were taken 90 days ahead also. So alot of these engine pictures were "mocked up" just for the article and were not really that way in production. Just more grey area for us to all suppose what really happened!!!

That's everything I know on this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tommy and Richard....I have Tommy's address....Richard, if you want, email me your address.....I will UPS each of you one of my NOS valve covers and let you see personally "the color" that they are. I would want them back but I would send you each one to let you determine if they have a greenish tint.

Ronnie Russell

04-13-2005, 11:41 AM

The rusty, old 409-409 plus trans. that I recently sold for Barry Taylor, had an air cleaner on it that was different than anything anyone around here has ever seen. If there isnt enough debate on air cleaners or valve covers, this sould really stir things up. The pic. I posted in ad shows the air cleaner from the front,,HOWEVER- There are 2 factory stamped air horn holes in the rear of the air cleaner base. Anyone ever heard of this? I repeat- these are not "added on later holes". I have pic. of rear of air cleaner stored , so if anyone would like me to e-mail pic. just ask.. Maybe its not uncommon , I dont know.

Phil Reed

04-13-2005, 12:54 PM

Ronnie:

Barry's 409 had 348 valve covers too!! Could you tell if they had drippers inside? Wonder if they were factory original??????????

Ronnie Russell

04-13-2005, 03:51 PM

The engine looked just like it did in the ad. It looked untouched for many years. Even after taking the engine and trans. out Sunday, Barry said every little spring, cotter pins,etc. looked like they were vintage 1962. If this car wasnt correct, it fooled everyone who looked at it, It was a crime to disassemble it but the owner didnt want to buy it. The hole in the floor was factory cut 4 sp. hole with externsion, Bellhousing was #553. Everything was right. Our theory on the valve covers is that MAYBE the vendors supplying 62 covers might have been late on a specific day and this engine went out with 61 Valve covers. They were not drippers, but they matched the rest of the engine in discoloration..It is a mystery that will never be solved. The air cleaner is a story by itself. Have you ever seen one with rear holes (in addition to the front air horns?

Fran Preve

04-13-2005, 04:00 PM

:bang :bang :bang :bang :bang How dumb am I?. Of course there would be no decals!. How stupid of me, old guy brain fade!.

Phil, I have that magzine, an original from back then (I save everything!). And your right, there was about a 90 day lead time from when the magazine was "laid out" and the date on the cover. The BEST source of ACCURATE information is from magazines that came out "back then".

I wouldn't go so far as saying the used the SAME silver as in 1962 on the 1961's, could be, maybe not. The Tonawanda plant built two groups of 409's in 1961 totaling 265 engines. These were COMPLETE engines (as shipped). Because so few were built did they use the same silver?. Maybe/maybe not. Were they drippers?, I'd say no, but Phil is one person who's knowledge I would trust.

The more I'm finding out the more I'm believing that one group of these 1961 409's were for putting in cars at the assembly plant and one group was for sale over the counter to retrofit 340/350 348's guys were racing (and for service).
My best guess is they basically used 340h

Fran Preve

04-13-2005, 04:31 PM

:dunno My server logged me off, now I'll finish. My best guess is they used the 340hp parts to build those first 409's. The magazine Phil posted was the FIRST on the new 409, and a Petersen publication. Chevrolet used Petersen (and Hot Rod) to get the message out to "hot rodders" back then. What's pictured from GM came directly from Chevrolet, but remember this was changing week by week and month by month back then.

Phil: Email me at home I have a couple of questions.............fran

Fran Preve

04-13-2005, 04:39 PM

Phil: I have that magazine and will take it and a 62 cover down to Richard when I go down to Florida in 3 weeks. I will do my best to SHOVE IT UP>>>>never mind.
It was done by Super Sport Enginering out of Colorado back about 1986.

PS the engine on the cover sure looks like a straight silver, could this be what some guys are basing their idea of the shaade of silver on?.

fatride

04-13-2005, 05:56 PM

I personally could care less what color the valve covers are or were, I'm a pure hot rodder not a restorer. That said, Phil, why don't you send me a NOS valve cover just to see if you get it back! :dunno

SS425HP

04-13-2005, 06:47 PM

Fran Preve

04-14-2005, 12:18 AM

Fred: I may need you help to hold Richard down. It's the first week in May.

mark johnson

04-14-2005, 12:57 AM

Ronnie, I would love to see some more photos and hear the story about that original, untouched 62 409 car. You said it was a four door hardtop? Wow! I was in awe just looking at the E-bay auction photos. What a find.

Ronnie Russell

04-14-2005, 01:09 AM

The car belonged to my race car partner, I only brokered the sale. No title, no vin tag. That was the reason only engine-trans. was offered for sale. The winning bidder had the option to buy the car for additional $5,000. Everyone who saw the car fell in love with it including me. What is so neat about 4 dr ht car? You would understand if you saw the car in person. Pictures and descriptions just dont do it justice. Paint was bad, everything else was excellent to perfect. Barry will probably file for lost title some day and build 409 "driver" .

real61ss

04-14-2005, 08:29 AM

Ronnie,
I would love to see any pictures of a early 409 air cleaner, if you would, please email them to me. Thanks

Phill,
Thanks for the offer but I'll take your word, I tried to email you last night but had problems with my server. I'll probably get some of that valve cover paint from you.

fatride

04-24-2005, 04:35 PM

What! Gold and green tint????? Factory fomula?? My God! Could it be true! Ahhh bull!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7969225593&category=46096

Fran Preve

04-24-2005, 04:42 PM

THERE!, take THAT RICHARD!.

By the way, the valve covers pictured are incorrect, they have the correct DECAL for the Turbofire 409, but it sure looks like a FOIL 409hp call out.

The one I'm taking down to Richard was done by Mike Dumpert of Super Sport Engineering out of Colorado 20 years ago, correct decal call out but incorrect FOIL 409 Turbofire. And the CORRECT shade of INDUSTRIAL silver!. No snide comments Richard or I won't grease it up first!.