Z11. Mystery Motor? Factory Experimental Crank

[oldskydog]

I know somebody here has the answer. I just aquired another interesting piece and I' m hoping you guys can help identify it. It has the chevy factory experimental casting number 0-191561 and is the same basic dimensions as a 409 crank but has smaller radius counterweights, a very different shaped crank flange, plates welded onto some of the counterweights and an obviously longer stroke. It is standard 2.50 mains and standard 2.20 rods. The mains have an oil groove machined around the circumference. Could this be a prototype Z-11 or Mystery Motor crank? With the collective expertise of this group you are bound to have the answer. :help BTW the guy I got this from also had an original mickey thompson 409 stroker crank but he wanted $500 for it .

Sorry , the pics were too big to upload. Maybe someday I will figure out how to scale them down to fit.
Never mind-------I figured it out. :doh

[SS425HP]

You can email the pictures to me, and I will post them. One thing I have done is to mail the pictures to myself, and then save to desk top. Outlook Express with XP reduces the size of the pictures to email them. I have a program to also reduce the size, but emailing to my self has generally reduced them enough to be able to post on the site.

[oldskydog]

Thanks SS425hp. You have a PM.
Cecil

[SS425HP]

OK, now tell us about the plane in your avitar. There is one on the field here in Midletown, done in the Navy version. T-28, right?

[oldskydog]

Yep! That's my other hotrod. Not the one in the picture but just like it. The big difference is the one in the pic is a T-28C (with tailhook) and mine is a "B" model and it's not painted yet. There's nothing like the sound of 1425hp in a radial engine. It sounds like a Z-11 only louder.
Cecil : :D

[Mr Goodwrench]

10-4 on the radial engines I belong to the CAF. alot of my summers are spent turning wrenches on r-2600 radials,1700 hp each on a 1944 B-25J no sound like them :bow :bow you fly any shows cecil? mayby I've seen you?

[oldskydog]

No airshows, can't afford the gas and the beast is pretty ugly without paint. Just bare aluminum and oil finish. Actually I haven't been able to fly it for the last 2 years since I lost my medical (temporary, I hope) so I have gone back to my cars. B-25's are neat. I worked on one back in 64 but never got to fly it.
Cecil

[Mr Goodwrench]

hear ya on the fuel, the burn rate on our B-25 is 70 gal per hr average per engine!

[SS425HP]

Now that will get you to the poor house, and fast.
Damned medical will break you, too. With the FAA criteria today, and since I had a mild heart attack in 2001, I figure about $5000.00 per year to get and keep my medical, and that is good for about 9 months after they take their good old time deciding whether to issue it, or not. Finally said the hell with it. Sold my plane, and got back to the cars. The plane itself was $4000.00 per year, before flying it. Airlines are way cheaper, today. Just about everyone I flew with has lost their medical for one reason or another. Damned old age is EXPENSIVE.

Fred

[oldskydog]

After flying and working on airplanes for over 40 years its hard to quit but cars are a lot easier since you don't have to deal with the Feds. I could talk airplanes all day but should get back to the original thread.
Any ideas on this crank? I think it must be at least 3.65 stroke and looks to be useable, but if it is something special I would not want to just stick it in any engine.
BTW the guys that I got it from had a 60 348 block that miked out to be 4.250 bore and had a blank pad that still had the broach marks. I would have picked it up but they were a little too proud of it. These parts all came from the collection of a southern california old time racer. Some really interesting stuff. I did pick up a set of forged venolia pistons which are in good condition and look like they are .040 over. Oddly enough they have a peaked dome like the 348 piston. Anybody familiar with these?

[Fran Preve]

I hear you on the B-25, and B-26, the sound is mesmerizing.

As far as the crank is concerned, if it's from California it could be just about anything. Back in the day they did some strange things to build "race" engines, the factory wouldn't build a barny crank like the one shown, GM could build ANYTHING in their shops. Hank the Crank and others would cobble up cranks because back thenthat's all they could do.

According to tech articles from back in the day no one recommended boring a 348 out to the 409's 4.310 bore. Even an 1/8th (.125) was risky, but could be done with the right block. If it was easily done, or it could be done safely people would have been doing it back then.

409's would take .060 with no sweat, .090 pistons were readily available but the block was considered "used up". Even then it was a gas only no blower block by then.

PS: I've got a stack of Trade-a-Planes from the late '70's, back when the used to give -28's away. What do they go for today?.

[oldskydog]

Fran,
The T-28 market is soft. I can't figure it out but people will pay 250k for a T-34 which is nothing but a Bonanza with a canopy but I have seen flying T-28's have a hard time selling for 150k. Some of the high dollar ground up restos bring 300+ but not very often. Performancewise the T-28 is the nest thing to the P-51 and you can't touch one of them for less than a mil. Maybe someday the market will discover what a great airplane it is. I was counting on this thing financing my retirement. It was a pile of parts on pallets when I got it in 96 and it took me 4 years to build it. BTW it is 1955 model. Fits right in with my old cars.
About the crank are you saying that it probably is not a chevy experimental or did I misunderstand? It is definitely a long stroke and a different casting since the counterweights are smaller diameter and show no signs of having been ground off but were cast that way. Also I noticed that it has counterweights on both sides of the #3 main unlike the 409 which has none. Anyway I thought it was interesting.
I thought about picking up that 4.25 348 block and putting a 3.65 crank in it to make a 427 if it sonic checked ok. I have a 68 camaro project that needs an engine. How would it look to lift the hood on a 68 camaro with 427 badges and see a W engine?

[gearhead409]

you will need a 3.75" stroke crank to make a 427.

[walkerheaders]

How would it look to lift the hood on a 68 camaro with 427 badges and see a W engine?

:?

[oldskydog]

Thanks gearhead,
I knew I had too many numbers rolling around in my head. I thought about my post last night and realized I got my stroke numbers mixed up. I still think it would be neat and one of the cranks I just picked up might in fact be 3.75 or longer. I need to check that out. :doh

[Fran Preve]

Oldsky: yes I'm saying that in my opinion your describing a "california' crank from way back when.

I'm shocked -28's can be had for as little as 150k, I would have expected a nice flying example to go for at LEAST 250k, if not more. I hear what you ay about the -28 being WAY beyond a -34!. People who can afford this kind of "toy' doesn't worry about fuel consumption!. Look at all the big buck off shore style boats being run around!. Let's face it, you bring in a -28 and someone else brings in a -34, which is more impressive. Like a Corvette vs a Portche, ya the Vette is a great car, but the Portche has "panache". You've got a sweet plane.

[oil4kids]

The Navy flew all there good T-28s down to Beeville TX in 1982-

try going to flight school in the Navy- and get your butt kicked 24 hours a day

however It was one of there best trainers in the Navy as long as you didnt cut in the supercharger to early and torque over the plane on touch and go's



Mark

look me up , Aviation Officer Candidate Pilot
US Navy class 40-82 Pensacola Florida

[oldskydog]

Mark,
Good to hear from another Naval Aviator type. I transferred to VT-27 at NAS Corpus Christi, Tx in 73 just as the squadron transitioned from advanced in the S2 to basic training in the T-28. I instructed in the 28 from 73 to 76 everything from transition, acro, basic instruments, radio instruments, night flying and formation. My parents have a ranch just west of Beeville. I never heard of the 28's going to Beeville. My aircraft was one of the last to be retired in 83 from VT-27 at Corpc. Just to clear up any misconception the engine had a single stage, two speed supercharger which was always operated in low blower below 10-12 thousand feet then shifted to high blower above that. If it was in high blower on a touch and go severe overboost and damage would be the likely result not torque roll. 52.5 inches MAP and 2600 rpm on takeoff was enough- took a lot of right rudder though. Love that airplane! :cheers

[Mr Goodwrench]

52.5 inches of MAP? wow more than I've seen in the old wrights(or wrongs as we call them) on our B-25. They also have two speed superchargers, but are disconected and safety wired on the low side beings we are not allowed two fly over 10,000

[oil4kids]

Yes, I was having a senior moment, Corpus had the 28s and VT 26 Chase NAS at Beeville had jets, i think the buckeyes and 4's maybe some 9s long ago and far away

Lost a close friend driving a A3 whale back in 86 on a night landing on the Nimitz

the t 28 engine and supercharger was a thing of beauty, almost as cool as a R-2800

for those interested, Pensacola Air Museum has a T-28 simulator you can sit in


Nice to have you aboard the 409 site, oldsky