409 vs Big Block Debate

[droptop62]

I am interested in knowing how you guys really feel about the 409 Engine.
It is pretty obvious that everybody here is very passionate about their W block.
The 409 engine is obviously very unique, has a wild racing history, and so on......
But what I am asking is this, Do you think the W block 409 is a superior engine to the Big Block that replaced it?
I wanted a 409 just because they are different, but I personally think the big block Chev is a far better engine.
So, how do you guys really feel about your 409??

[Mr Goodwrench]

ooooooo you relly know how to hurt a guy, but I have to agree with you, BUT they was damn fine in there day!!!!!!! and not to shabby to-day, just expensive.
hold on this could get nasty.

[No409]

i think the BBC is a better motor, and a lot less expensive to build, but everyone wants to look at a 409. ya just dont see them anymore. everything has a big block in it nowadays

[JimKwiatkowski]

I have both engines and I have to say the Big Block wins out,but when it came to selecting an engine for the 57 I went with the 409,because everybody had a Big Block :D

[348NUT]

I'll have to say I was a bit concerned about putting the 348 in instead of a small block, I thought it would get terrible gas mileage and be a dog.
BOY was I wrong! It's only a stock 250hp but gets better mileage and has more power than any 350 small block I've ever driven. :brow
I hate 350 small blocks! But I love 348s :D

p.s. Yes I realize there are plenty of 350s that would blow my doors off, I'm talking mild engines here, but I truly believe the design is more efficient :deal

[oldskydog]

I'm a newcomer here and certainly no expert but here's my 2 cents. I don't think the BBC is necessarily better than the 348\409 but there is no doubt that the BB is easier and cheaper to build since it has a much longer production and performance history than the W and is widely supported by the aftermarket. To define better I think you have to define its intended use. If you want to power a tank or other extreme vehicle then the BBC has more development potential than the W but if you want to power the average passenger vehicle I would say they are pretty much equal except for availability and expense . Other than that there is a lot to be said for esthetics. The BBC just can't hold a candle to the W for looks. I don't know about you, but don't want to have a McEngine. I want something different.

[droptop62]

I think we all know the 409 is unique.
and rare, it was only made for 5 years.
OK Consider removing any aftermarket parts from the topic.
Lets not get into price of rebuilding, it is obvious that there is more stuff available for the big block. yes the 409 and 348 engines are rare and people step around a car to see one, and that is only because there are not as many of these out there compared to the big block and small block chev. that doesn't make it a better engine, it just makes it rare. and I wouldn't say a big block should be called a "McEngine"
Would you say that a 1970 LS6 450HP 454 is a McEnigine?? or an aluminum cylinder head 427 is your average big block?

I want to compare these engines as they were from the factory.
One of my issues that makes the Big Block a better engine is the fact there is a design flaw in the 348 and 409 blocks. The blocks crack and not just a few, the majority of them.

The 1955 small block chevrolet engine was designed and put into use before the advent of the 348 and then 409, the big block came next in 1965.
both the small and big block are still being used today virtually identical to the first versions. the "W" only lasted 8 years. (includes both 348/409)

Like I said earlier I have my 409 because it is different, and rare. But I still don't think it is a better engine.

[JIMS409]

Hey Oldskydog, is that your T-28 on your avatar?

************************************************** ***************

[Bungy]

OK I'll through in my 2 cents. I think the BBC is the better engine. It has much better breathing characteristics then the W's but with that said, I'll take a W over a BBC any day of the week. :bow

[jim_ss409]

I think the big block is a great engine. It borrowed alot from the "W" but most of the differences were improvements. But I don't think that means the "W" is a bad engine. I don't think you have to look any farther than the 574hp "W" motor that Tony Shaffer built to see that these engines can still hold there own even today. The magazines are full of Big Blocks that make that kind of power on pump gas like Tony's engine but most of them are using aftermarket heads. I like the Big Block and I think it's better in most ways but I think it's way cooler to have a "W" :D

[Quickshift409]

What is a Big Block? To me a Big Block is a 454,502,540 all the way to the IHRA 600 plus cubic inch monsters. The 409 was tagged a big block because it was in it's day. Even a bored and stroked 409 only can get into the 470 to 480 area and by todays standard thats small. The Big Block of today has the technology and aftermarket parts from years of research and development. I don't think a 1965 chevy 396 or early 427 was that much faster than a 409. I owned a 67 chevelle 396 and it was not as fast as the 63 Biscayne 409 I had. With the new technology developed today for the 409 they will run very strong, but they just don't have the cubic inch and breathing potential of the new Big Block. Time marches on, the T 28 is not a F-18.
QS409

[oldskydog]

Yep, that's my T-28. I'm impressed. I didn't know there were so many airplane guys here.
Back to the thread, I think it is obvious that the BBC is better than the W otherwise Chevy wouldn't have replaced it. At least that is what their engineers and marketing people believed so what are we debating? That said, I believe that if you took a bone stock 396 325hp and a 340hp 409 and put them in like grocery getters they would both do the job equally well. It's only when you start to factor in the other considerations of high performance mods, repair, etc that the differences start to show. As far as the cracking problem on the 409's is it really a design flaw, thin castings, or could it be caused more by the way they were abused? If you think about it , I would imagine that most people who bought the 409s were performance oriented and drove the snot out of them. I don't remember any similar stories of cracking in the trucks that used them but then I don't have any statistics, just my probably incorrect gut feeling. I remember my first 348 58 Delray in 1960 liked to eat pushrods. Do you suppose it had anything to do with my trying to shift at 5500rpm?
My comment about McEngine was not to imply that anything other than a W was inferior but rather expressing the opinion that I believe we all share regarding the uniqueness of the W engine.

[threeimpalas]

...I wouldn't say a big block should be called a "McEngine"
Would you say that a 1970 LS6 450HP 454 is a McEnigine?? or an aluminum cylinder head 427 is your average big block?

Yep. Today, a 450 HP 454 isn't special (regardless of whether it's and LS6), nor is it uncommon. Same goes for an aluminum headed BBC (whether it be a 427, 454, 502). In this current day and age, they're both McEngines.

In regards to which is superior - the BBC or W - I'd give the nod to the BBC in all catagories except appearance and uniqueness.

[walkerheaders]

as one of the many members who own both, i like them both and they each have a different purpose for my way of doing things. I have a BB powered truck that pulls my BB powered racecar, and a W powered car for a graceful, beautiful, high powered street cruiser, car show winner, and just plain cool car. (like yours).

we once did a pro/con sheet on the forum.......wanna do it again?

"W" pro's :
pleasing to most eyes
cause the old folks to have happy memories
6 head bolts around each cylinder
ability to survive less than top quality fuel
easy to reach spark plugs
easy to re-torque cylinder head bolts
comes with 2 4 barrels
they used to be cheap power before ebay

"W: con's
there overly popular now that everybody has one
short, weak and heavy con rods and pistons
normal parts are overly expensive
blox, heads, and manifolds cost too much.

BB pro's
almost everything

BB con's
i cant think of one

[CDNpontiac409guy]

What Oldskydog said :beerbang

FACT: A W block is easier and simpler to work on. During assembly, installing pistons, assembling heads. In the car, changing spark plugs, exhaust manifolds... heck, swapping heads while the engine's in the car... not even CLOSE ! The only thing easier is a flathead.

FACT: Valve train reliability. A BBC has the valves staggered/pushrods at varying angles ( granted, this is what permits the superior port flow ). This promotes wear, and CERTAINLY to a degree, can induce failures. I have shifted my street driven W blocks at 7000 RPM for years. I don't know what a valve train failure is.

Cracking ? ? ? ? :? :dunno
Maybe if the owners would have put antifreeze in the thing, it wouldn't have froze, and cracked below the deck :takethat
( just thinking out loud here.... that's the only crack I've ever seen )

oh... and FACT:
Noise. I'm sorry BBC guys... in this area, you're NOT EVEN CLOSE ! ! !
A BBC has a "hollow" exhaust note... sounds like it's going to tear the inside of itself apart.
A high winding W block ? This lunatic screaming/growling... sounding like it's going to rip the drive line to pieces. :beerbang :deal

[Rockfish39]

:scratch: I think that comparing a 409 to a Gen-IV, is kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Like everything else, each has their pros and cons...

The passage of time, technology changes, manufacturing methods, elasticity of demand ect, ect... are just a handfull of factors that were considered when GM made each series.

But the 409, IMHO, ;) is in the same league with FE Fords and Hemi Chryslers and no so much BBCs, even though they were both Chevrolet engines.

All big three engines I mentioned were , more or less, application and, in GM and FORD cases, model specific engines. IE you could not get a 409 in ANY other GM car (save for Canadian Pontiacs) nor could you get it in ANY model other than a FULL SIZED CHEVROLET car...

The rumor about a handfull of 409 vettes coming out of Chevrolet St. Louis in '64 is an old wives tale. IT never happened.

'09s certainly have their place in history, and the low low production of 45,000, or so , units made in just 5 years of production makes it a real scarecity today. ITs the same with HEMIs and FEs. So ask yourself, How cool is owning one regardless of how well it performs???


Lastly, Aubrey is right. a 409 makes about as a distinctive a sound as an H-D motorcycle does. I could tell the difference between a W idleing and a BBC from a block away. Just listen to the song 409 by the Beach Boys, The engine you hear at the very beginning of the song IS a 409, no doubt about it!

Rock :cool:

[dq409]

:scratch:


Lastly, Aubrey is right. a 409 makes about as a distinctive a sound as an H-D motorcycle does. I could tell the difference between a W idleing and a BBC from a block away. Just listen to the song 409 by the Beach Boys, The engine you hear at the very beginning of the song IS a 409, no doubt about it!

Rock :cool:

Hey Rock !!! Good points and I whole heartily agree but,,,,,, I think the truth about the engine on the BB song is a 348 !!! Same diff,,,,,, :D ,,,dq

[droptop62]

You guys put up a good fight for defending your passion for the 348/409 engines.
So what I am getting out of this is that the 409 looks better and sounds nice.
Of course the 409 and the big block should be compared, the big block is what replaced the 409. and as far as the cracked blocks is concerned, I don't think the 348 and 409 blocks cracked because somebody was hammering the snot out of them. or because the guys that had them didn't put antifreeze in them. you can go to any other chevrolet website and will still only find people questioning what to do with their cracked 348 or 409 block, never really an issue or topic when the small and big blocks are concerned. You guys need not get uptight over this, this is a debate, not an attack.
Why would I keep my 409 if i did not have some interest in the engine and cars these came in??
I am just looking for some hard eveidence from anyone that believes the 409 could be better than a big block, and somebody if there is somebody out there that thinks GM made a mistake by killing off the "W"

[fatride]

Well for me, it's the challenge of squeezing the last ounce of performance out of the W engine. Most of the guys I know that have BBs think that they are inherently fast so they just throw some Summit parts at them and belive that they can beat anything on the planet! Those of us who have a boner for the W engine, for the better part, pay attention to the details when we have racing on our minds. This will beat bolt ons every time. I was running a 9.0 comp 348 with three two's before I placed a 09 under the 348 top end. I had a friend with a 65 Impala 396 that would add perfomance parts every year trying to out run the 348, never happened! Another friend of mine had a 48 Plymouth that had a 360 crate engine rated at 300 HP, he also ate dust to the 348. Belive me, these guys are believers now! The guy with the 360 now has a 69 Polara with a 440 build and he is still shaken in his boots that I will kick his ***! On the track with guys that know how to build an engine it is a different story, but not all of them know how to build! Since we are a small group that race the W it's up to us to share performance knowledge and parts and let the weekend warriors know that the 348/409 is still a force to be reckoned with. Is the BB a better engine? NO! just different. I think the most fun is competing against another W engine owner, Giddyup. :beerbang

[chev1960]

I only say this ,the 409 is a legend and always will be and that is that Thank-You.

[Bubbletop Bel-Air]

I have one 409/409 in a Bubbletop and three BBC's. A 454 in my dually, a 502 in my boat, and a 540 in my race car. Each does the job for which it was intended very well. I have to dispute CPG's statement about W's being easier to work on, especially his statement about installing pistons, nothing is easier than sliding one of my 540 pistons through a tapered ring compressor, try that with that 74 degree deck, and if he thinks a BBC lacks good sound, he has never heard an NHRA Pro Stock 500 inch motor cross the finish line at 9800 rpm. No way a W motor could even be considered in the same league as a well prepared BBC. I love my 409 Bel-Air, but realize it is a classic muscle car, not a wanna be racer. :brow :p :D

[CDNpontiac409guy]

I have to dispute CPG's statement about W's being easier to work on, especially his statement about installing pistons, nothing is easier than sliding one of my 540 pistons through a tapered ring compressor, try that with that 74 degree deck, and if he thinks a BBC lacks good sound, he has never heard an NHRA Pro Stock 500 inch motor cross the finish line at 9800 rpm.

HHMMM....
The exhaust note is not a debate. It is FACT :brow . Yes, I've heard a big RPM BBC... Pro Mod to be exact. Wonderful RPM. Still doesn't change the fact that it sounds like it's going to scatter itself !
There is a video of a 62 Belair post with a big RPM 409 and a Jerico. It would effectively void any opposing "discussion" about the sound quality :beerbang

Installing pistons ? Guess I'm just used to it.... No ring compressor or other apparatus required. Simply position your rings ( rod hanging verticle toward the crank... crank throw at BDC ), and gently bump the top of the piston with the palm of your hand.

[Mr.Jimmy]

Aubrey,

Is your site down??

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Server hiccup, Mr Jimmy. Should be going again this evening.
Email is working fine though:

aubrey@bruneauperformance.ca
or
mr64pontiac@1964pontiac.ca
or
cpg@canadianpontiac.ca
or
canadian_pontiac_guy@yahoo.ca

[Bubbletop Bel-Air]

To answer drotops original question..........NO :takethat

[droptop62]

I really thought you guys would start pulling out information and compare torque and horsepower and power to weight ratios, etc............
So my conclusion is most are in favor of the Big Block being a better engine, but most would rather have a 409 because they like the uniqueness of having the W engine.
Looks, and sound don't count as part of this debate, due to it being based on opinion.
(This was not a beauty pagent, nor a singing contest.)
Fatride did a good job at explaining his choice though.
All in all, I like all things chevrolet, and have an appreciation for all the different types of GM products and technology from the mid 50's to the very early 70's
Maybe somebody will pull a rabbit from their hat and lay down information on either the big block or 348/409 that makes a compelling case of why one might be better than the other

:stooges

[fatride]

We could look back as far as the "dyno fuel" engine existed :bang . Was the Ford 390 or the Mopar 413 and pontiac 389 considered as BBs?? What do you think the drivers would have said at the time (Let's say 1962 or 63) when they were talking to the likes of Hayden Proffitt at the end of the 1320' if they were asked this question? :mad: The name of the game is development! The HP 350 ci engine of today without any bolt ons or tuning would out run all but the BEST of the 409 cars of 61 through 65. So is the small block a better engine than the W ?? Naw! Apples to apples, Let's try and make the W engines that we have the best we can. Let's run the cars of that era. Bring on the 390s 389s and 413s! :evil

[tripowerguy]

I have no idea how the weak block idea got started. It is like when Ford did in Tucker, you keep hammering an idea long enough and people begin to believe it. When nothing but W engines dominated SS drag racing (58 -62) You would see 25 in the SS class and one time at Lions over a hundred. In all that time I never saw a W blow up. These cars all ran factory rods pistons and POWER shifted at 6500 rpm. I'm not saying some didn't blow but I'm saying I never witnessed any. I saw rearends, axles and trans blow up. I saw plenty of small blocks spread their guts all over the track. :D

[droptop62]

I have no idea how the weak block idea got started. It is like when Ford did in Tucker, you keep hammering an idea long enough and people begin to believe it. When nothing but W engines dominated SS drag racing (58 -62) You would see 25 in the SS class and one time at Lions over a hundred. In all that time I never saw a W blow up. These cars all ran factory rods pistons and POWER shifted at 6500 rpm. I'm not saying some didn't blow but I'm saying I never witnessed any. I saw rearends, axles and trans blow up. I saw plenty of small blocks spread their guts all over the track. :D

Nobody here said the 409s are weak and come apart.
But it is a fact that the W blocks crack. it is a flaw as far as I am concerned.
There are far too many 348 and 409 blocks that have the exact same crack in the exact same spot. Most of the time the block is repairable and usable, but in my mind still an issue that is not observed on the other chevrolet engines.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Droptop....
Where is the "exact same crack in the exact same spot" which you make reference to ?

[droptop62]

Droptop....
Where is the "exact same crack in the exact same spot" which you make reference to ?
The water jacket on both sides of the block under the cylinder head deck.
Do a search right here on this site and you will quite a few threads on this topic.
I know this isn't the first time of you have heard of this.
My block has a crack in one side that has been repaired. I think Jim Kwiatkowski had a crack issue, but I will let him say whether or not this is true. The 58 348 tripower engine I had, had both sides crack.
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3141&highlight=cracked+block
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3746&highlight=cracked+block
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3156&highlight=cracked+block
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2395&highlight=cracked+block
This one here is interesting because you were the first to respond and note that the crack is very common.
http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2067&highlight=cracked+block

[CDNpontiac409guy]

EXACTLY !!!!!

That is the crack that a referred to earlier, but my statement was discounted :dunno

That is the crack that occurs from BAFOONS not putting antifreeze in the cooling system.
It's a freeze crack, and is NOT a defect ( other than defective owner )

[droptop62]

EXACTLY !!!!!

That is the crack that a referred to earlier, but my statement was discounted :dunno

That is the crack that occurs from BAFOONS not putting antifreeze in the cooling system.
It's a freeze crack, and is NOT a defect ( other than defective owner )

I guess only Bafoons own 409s then because it is not an issue with the big block or small block chev. (Yeah maybe on occaison but not like the 348/409)
Hey Jim Kwiatkowski, Aubrey just called you a Baffoon.
Jim has has had his 409 for twenty some years if my memory serves me correctly.
I would bet that Jim has taken loving care of his 57 with the 409, he is a huge car guy and knows what it takes to take propper care of a car, and his 409 still cracked.

Jim,
Sorry to use you for my argument, but your block is my defense to what aubrey is trying to say is caused by idiots instead of a weakness in the design of the 348/409.

And to all 409 members, just remember if for any reason your block cracks you are an idiot according to aubrey.

Now you can post some more large yelling type faces in your defense.

[chevymusclecars]

The block on Ebay has a small crack but it has been repaired nicely. Surely you wouldn't blame a small crack like this on the lack of Anti Freeze.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4536501700&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

[wrench]

The block on Ebay has a small crack but it has been repaired nicely. Surely you wouldn't blame a small crack like this on the lack of Anti Freeze.
Wow, I didn't do that bad on my FIRST welding lesson! :rofl

Oh, well, if it works, it works. Keeping 09's running is what matters.

:cool:

[JimKwiatkowski]

Ok guy's first off my crack was a minor crack that was that 1 1/2" long,I repaired it with stop leak and and its fine now.I've had this block since 1982 and its been in a heated garage,maybe this slight crack was there and I never noticed it :dunno I know what Aubrey is talking about and I know he dosn't consider me BAFOON.I think these W-motors were stored in junkyards and backyards with water and froze.I wonder if any southern W-motors had any problems cracking blocks.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

I know what Aubrey is talking about and I know he dosn't consider me BAFOON.I think these W-motors were stored in junkyards and backyards with water and froze.I wonder if any southern W-motors had any problems cracking blocks.

Nuff said :deal !

OK Droptop, you ARE right... "Bafoon" was a little over the top. But MAN, I'm serious... in the north where it at night time it drops below freezing for more than 6 months of the year, this IS an issue.

I have a good customer northern Alberta. He brought his car down to me to do some body work. Sat outside over the weekend, and it had dropped to 10 F over night.
The 350 cracked so bad that it even busted the heads.

OH, BTW... it was a Chevelle convertible ;)

[1958 impala]

348&409s rule, where will the 454s, 502s,427s rank in 40 plus years who knows but we all can be positive the W moters will still be highly ranked.My own 2 cents on cracks is Ive owned a dozen 409 348s beat the hell out of them and never had a crack.As I stated before Ws RULE.

[Firepower354]

Winters in the north can tear up some iron, regardless of brand. It's gotta be real cold and have NO antifreeze, truly baffoonish behavior. Check the bottom pics. I am not responsible for that crack or repair, it came with a barn cleanout with a half dozen decent ones. You rarely see cracked SBCs because it's not worth the trouble to fix one. I've got them stacked like cordwood. Be sure to be environmentally responsible and thouroughly wash them before dropping them in the pond :brow

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4530056188&sspagename=STRK%3AMEUS%3AIT

The W and MKIV share the same short rods, difficulty getting good quench, and heavy valvetrain. How history treats them will have to wait, but price an original LS6, L88, L71, Z16 etc and see the numbers are climbing. Sadly the W didn't have time to evolve farther before being morphed into the MKIV. A new Dart 409 with raised decks and siamese bores, along with a reduction in price for aluminum heads might make it a fairer fight....I'm still planning a stroked W for my 59 "Ill-
Camino"


The Ws are cool, no doubt, but my low buck 496/505cid 9:1 truck block jobs with big valves in ported oval port heads make 525hp and near 600lb/ft torque. I know there are bigger number stroked Ws, but at what cost? Nostalgia is great, and I'm not speaking ill of the W or any other "obsolete" (Hot Rod mag cover '77) engine. My hemi's cost (and weigh) tons to build moderate power. The Ws scalloped valve covers are the big draw. GMC V6 305-478 guys love them too, along with Spitfire, Saratoga, and Windsor from team M. Mine've got holes in the middle, kids love it.

Technology triumphs over fond memories. Look at the newest LS7 Vette: 500 in car horses, 2 valve, pushrod, naturally aspirated, with a warranty and smooth idle. 400hp in the rear drive Sunbird they pass off as a GTO. Ugly little engine though.

Fatride said it best. It should all be kept in context and compared to the other engines of the era. Ford, Mopar, and Chevy all started the BB programs humbly about the same time with 352, 350, 348s and grew them into formidible weapons. GMs started strong but conservative engineering and research let the others get away from them in the mid-60s though. Hemis and cammers, oh my! Flipping through my collection of Hot Rod from 58-65 shows no clear-cut winners. Pontiac was in it big, Olds was fading fast. Drag or oval? "Stock" class, AFX, pick a year and venue to nail it down. Chevy did very well in stock bodied competition, but the lack of the Ws in diggers shows the limited ultimate potential.

[Fran Preve]

CDN: I'll disagree, that was a weak spot on W blocks. If they were ALL caused by freezing water you'd see it in other places. Besides, that's what freeze plugs are for.

The big block debate is a good time killer. The W was designed in the 1955 area when machined combustion chambers were considered the way to go to up the compression with the junk octanes they had back then, the first 352 Fords had machined chambers too. Anyway, performance wasn't the reason for the W design, and whatever they got out of it was a "gift". Unique, distinctive, different, out of the ordinary, all good reasons to own one now. But performance?. Put the same effort and money into any other engine and you'll go as fast or faster. But this is a W block web site so I guess it's to be expected.

[tripowerguy]

I know that the original question was if a big block is better than a 409 but I will relate a story. I had a 340hp 4 speed 64 SS and the owner of the motels son had a brand new 396 325hp 4speed 65, he wanted to race. This was a street race and probably wasn't a 1/4 mile but I beat him with no problem. Was he fast? yes, I was a better racer than him( much more experience) The cars pulled about the same and we were both geared about the same. Chevrolet was in the developement of the big block and W was on the way out before the 409 came into being. If as much engineering had gone into the W as into the Big Block it would be a lot different. Chevrolet has refined the small block over the years to where it is making unbelievable HP and getting mileage to boot. You can only compare engines from an era not the total developement of that engine over many years. If we compare Ford 390, Pontiac and Olds in 1958 through 1962 then you can see how they stackup. As far as Rails go If you didn't run a Chrysler Hemi you weren't competetive. You might win a few but in the long haul that was the engine. Yet the Chrysler Hemi was not competive in stock form in those years. :cool: Roy

[Firepower354]

Not competitive heck, didn't even exist! 58 was the last of the early ones and came in luxo-tanks with terrible auto trans' and lame gears. Cost too much to build, said Mopar. The 426H didn't pick up until 64 in racers and 66 in street trim. The W's only had the 361/383/413/426 wedge to contend with in that frame.

The era was one of rapid evolution with Chev growing from 348/250 to the famed and feared 409/425. Everyone else was too. Fords grew to 401 and 427 medium risers gave way to high risers, Pontiac 421's arrived in style with the likes of Mickey Thompson making them scream.

[SteveD409]

So called freeze plug holes are for the removal of core sand after casting, and will rarely keep your block from cracking when frozen. That's what I've always been told.

[JIMS409]

For what it's worth...I have been around and owned W engines all my life and have only seen ONE cracked block and it was a result of MORONFREEZE!

Just like the "expert" guys you hear at the shows and cruise-in's saying "those motors always blew-up and that's why GM dropped em.'" :doh

Without the W's we would not have the big block that we have all learned to know and admire. Darnit, let's give credit to what the design accomplished and stop perpetuating these self-professed and propagated slanders of these unique and legendary engines...Peace, Brothers! :hug

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[droptop62]

To all who have taken this debate a little too personally,
This was not intended to bash or make the 409 look bad but was rather a chance to compare and post facts about either the 409 or big block engines.
I like them both, I own both.
I am Pro towards the big block, but the 409 is way cool.
To get the most knowledge out of a subject you need to know more than just the strengths, you also need to be aware of the weakness as well to be fully informed.
During a Debate it is imperative to hear all informed points of view.

Aubrey,
I still find you to be one of the most informed and hands on kind of guys when it comes to the 409. I do not undermine your knowledge but had to disagree a little on the block issue. and I know you are very passionate about these engines and cars.
But don't let this get to you. it is just conversation.

With that said, I give all of you guys my respect.
and remember this is a debate, or just conversation. this post is not for bashing.

[jim_ss409]

The Mustard 2 car we saw in the convention video runs in the 8's with a stock block so I think the block's strong enough to resist cracking with normal use. I think that in almost every case the cracking we see on 409's is caused by freezing. I say 409's because you don't seem to see it as often on 348's. Maybe the cracked 348 blocks were more likely to get tossed out, and like Firepower said you rarely see cracked SBC's because nobody bothers to fix one. :dunno Up in the colder parts of Canada where I used to live I'd say that freeze plugs would save the block about half the time. When you're in the -40deg. temperature range and you leave water in an engine, or water in anything, it doesn't just crack it almost explodes.
I think the Big Block has plenty of design improvements over the W that make it more durable. But many of those improvements like 4 bolt mains, stronger rods, stronger cranks with more stroke, better intakes and cams etc. could have been done to the W so I think the engines would have been fairly equal in most ways if not for the heads. I guess you would have to say that the Big Blocks heads were better. But the Z-11 design was also very good. I like the way the W looks, sounds and runs. Besides, "She's real fine my 409" has a nice ring to it. :D

[Quickshift409]

After doing a little research I am posting these Facts. From 1961 to 1963 the Winternationals and U S Nationals in S/S, S/SA, A/FX and Top Stock Eliminator were won by Chevy 10 times, Pontiac 6 times, Dodge 4 times, and Plymouth 3 times. The W engine more than held it's own back then.
QS409

[jim_ss409]

After doing a little research I am posting these Facts. From 1961 to 1963 the Winternationals and U S Nationals in S/S, S/SA, A/FX and Top Stock Eliminator were won by Chevy 10 times, Pontiac 6 times, Dodge 4 times, and Plymouth 3 times. The W engine more than held it's own back then.
QS409

I'll have to try and remember these numbers the next time someone tells me the 409 was a truck engine that wasn't very quick. :deal :D

[fatride]

So called freeze plug holes are for the removal of core sand after casting, and will rarely keep your block from cracking when frozen. That's what I've always been told.
Right on Steve, Core plugs is the correct term I think. Not for freeze protection in any way shape or form.

[droptop62]

After doing a little research I am posting these Facts. From 1961 to 1963 the Winternationals and U S Nationals in S/S, S/SA, A/FX and Top Stock Eliminator were won by Chevy 10 times, Pontiac 6 times, Dodge 4 times, and Plymouth 3 times. The W engine more than held it's own back then.
QS409

Those are good facts!
Thanks Shan. I am going to print a copy of this for sure.
I like to keep a folder of facts and history on the 409.

[bobs409]

Right on Steve, Core plugs is the correct term I think. Not for freeze protection in any way shape or form.

So "Freeze plugs" and "Motor Oil" belong on the same page somewhere. :D

[SteveD409]

Man, Bob, you made me think to hard on that one! :scratch "Motor oil" should be "engine oil"---it took me awhile!

SteveD

[64ss409]

Around here they are called "soft plugs". I have no idea where that term got started. :dunno
Ron

[Ed51]

Core plugs are where the foundry had the sand cores hung in the mold to form the internal cavities, mostly water jackets,and after the molten iron chills,you get the sand out thru these holes. Got nothing to do with saving anything from freezing!

[Fran Preve]

But they did, save a LOT of blocks. Yes they were for sand removal, but they were called "freeze plugs" or "soft plugs" for a reason. My boat's popped a couple, so's my 454, but the block never cracked. They didn't save every engine every time but enough to gain the name "freeze plug".

Absolutely!, from 1961 to 1963 the 409/Z-11 OWNED Super Stock and AFX!. Then in 1964 Chevy disappeared, in the top classes.

I've always said, I'll say it again, if they would have put the Z-11 motor in a aluminum front end 1964 Malibu Ford's T-Bolt would come in last, Hemi's would have been hard (but could have been beat, in SS or AF/X, not the automatic classes). Then again the Turbo 400 came out in Buick in 1964. And aluminum front end 421 Super Duty Ponitacs could have been done too. Oh well........................


DeLorean is gone, and he'll always get undue credit for the GTO, but just think what would have happened if NASCAR would have followed thru on their plan for a 6.6 liter stock car class with a 115-117 inch wheelbase. They talked about it seriously, then Billy France dropped it. Imagine a 1964 Malibe with a de-stroked 409, and a 401 Buick Skylark, and a 389 LeMans, and a 400 Olds Cutlass against a, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Ford Fairlane?. Or a Plymouth Fury (with a Hemi?). Nah, too much BS I guess.

PS: I would have taken a Z-11 over a 2x4 Mystery motor for drag racing.

[Ed51]

Yes I had "freeze plugs" pop out on a 396 I had years ago that I foolishly was running water only...sometimes that happens,but that is not their reason for being. Just a happy coicidence when and if they pop out. Some racers stake the plugs in place so they CAN'T pop out!

[jim_ss409]

"PS: I would have taken a Z-11 over a 2x4 Mystery motor for drag racing."

When you look at how well the W engine did on the dragstrip it seems like it should have had a better record in NASCAR style racing. :dunno I wonder why not.
I like Frans Z-11 Malibu idea. It's too bad GM wimped out on there racing program. :cuss And if they would have put even a regular 425hp 409 in a Chevelle I think it would have been faster and cooler than a Z-16 Chevelle. While I'm dreaming here just think how cool a Z-11 powered 63 Stingray coupe would have been. :clap

[SteveD409]

"think how cool a Z-11 powered 63 Stingray coupe would have been"

Not a Z11, but there was a fellow around here 'bout 64/5 running a W block in a 59 or 60 'Vette. It was a 409 with a 348 crank?! I had just put a new crate 327 Fuelly short block in my 61 'Vette to replace my 283 Fuel engine----- he cleaned my clock.

[64ss409]

There was a fellow around here that started with an anniversery gold SS 409/409. Then he raced a 409 powered 63 spliit window vette. His next was a 409 powered, lengthened CJ5. This guy was a real 09 nut.
Ron

[Fran Preve]

I can't get my arms around a 409 in Stingray, the though makes me SHIVER!. And it did Zora too, else they would have. Anyway, fact is Mickey Thompson put a Mystery motor in a 1963 Corvette to race in the Modified race they use to race during the Speedweeks back then. And I know for a FACT Zora was SALIVATING at the thought of putting them in production Corvettes. You have to remember, the Mystery motor was smaller and much lighter than the Mark IV that replaced it. Here was a "big block" 427 cubic inch engine with the RIGHT heads that weighed not much over a 100 lbs more than a small block.

That said, I'd still take a Z-11 engine for DRAG RACING, but not for oval track or road racing.

I honestly don't know if anyone raced the Z-11 type head on the ovals. I've only seen ONE single 4 barrel factory intake for these heads, you'd think there'd a been more turning up. I believe, and alsways will, that Chevy engineers compared the Mystery motor to a 400hp 409 at the proving grounds to "sell" the engine. Yes, at well over 6000 rpm it was MUCH better than the standard 400 hp 409. But I don't believe it was a great deal better than a 427 Z-11 engine with a single 4. That's my opinion. Until I see a Z-11 single 4 engine on a dyno against a TRUE 427 Mystery motor, and the Mystery beat it by a LOT I'll stick with my belief.

Of course after 1964 the Mark IV engine would beat the Z-11 silly, but then the developement had stopped on the Z-11.

[SS425HP]

Fran, I had a 65 409/400HP car, new. Impala SS car. Traded it on a 396/425HP Impala SS when they came out. I don't have any track numbers, but only seat of the pants to talk from. I believe the 409 would walk the dog on the 396. Sure seemed like it to me.
Several years ago, Zora was at Indy at a good guys or Super Chevy show. This is at least second hand, so I have no direct knowledge of the conversation. Someone was talking to Zora about the 409, and what it would take to get it to run better. He told them that he had worked on a new piston design, among other things. He described what he was going to do to the piston to get better flame travel. I wasn't thinking about racing or anything except restoring a car to original, so didn't pay enough attention to the details. He did tell them there were more development ideas on the 409/427 type motor, but GM pulled the plug on them, and that stopped all new ideas from coming to production. We know that happened. I don't even remember who told me this story! Phil Reed might have some ideas, as I think he met Zora more than once. I would think Phil might have talked to him about this. Not positive, though. The gist of the story was that there was more power to be had from the 409 style engine, but GM said no.
The biggest problem was that not enough of us had the smarts to jump in like Dick Harrell, and some others, and build our own high performance Chevells and Novas. Jess Tyree still carries the words on his car " Us GM owners would rather fight than switch". Dick took his Z-11 engine out of his 63, and put it in a 64 Chevelle, and went Hemi hunting. He shot a lot of them down, too. And Thunderbolts. Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda, but DIDN'T do it.
Too soon old, too late smart.

Fred

[raymar58454]

a W engine is like racing. it gets in your blood and you never get it out. :love
Ray

[63BelAir]

I didn't notice if anyone mentioned that the bigblock that replaced the W engines
was the 66 396 Thick walled engine and the 427 that shortly followed..

I'm a very lucky man and have both engines //409//396

I love them both Tha 396 is bored 60 over with a solid cam and many other mods
Sounds licredlble ..the 409 I waited ten years or so to find the 66 396 not quite as long

As far as expense If I remember the last time I looked for a factory 409 car and a
Factory 66 SS 396 car ..the 396 big block cost a whole lot more ...

and a 427 car even more ....

But to come to a conclusion for what a 409 is, it out rules a general Big Block
in many ways ....

Just depends on which way your looking at things ...

For a track car your going to beat the crap out of ( General Big Block)

A classic you want to cruise and occasionally Romp on ...for the WHOA ! factor
The 409 ..

[Loafer409]

I can't get my arms around a 409 in Stingray, the though makes me SHIVER!. And it did Zora too, else they would have. Anyway, fact is Mickey Thompson put a Mystery motor in a 1963 Corvette to race in the Modified race they use to race during the Speedweeks back then. And I know for a FACT Zora was SALIVATING at the thought of putting them in production Corvettes. You have to remember, the Mystery motor was smaller and much lighter than the Mark IV that replaced it. Here was a "big block" 427 cubic inch engine with the RIGHT heads that weighed not much over a 100 lbs more than a small block.

That said, I'd still take a Z-11 engine for DRAG RACING, but not for oval track or road racing.

I honestly don't know if anyone raced the Z-11 type head on the ovals. I've only seen ONE single 4 barrel factory intake for these heads, you'd think there'd a been more turning up. I believe, and alsways will, that Chevy engineers compared the Mystery motor to a 400hp 409 at the proving grounds to "sell" the engine. Yes, at well over 6000 rpm it was MUCH better than the standard 400 hp 409. But I don't believe it was a great deal better than a 427 Z-11 engine with a single 4. That's my opinion. Until I see a Z-11 single 4 engine on a dyno against a TRUE 427 Mystery motor, and the Mystery beat it by a LOT I'll stick with my belief.

Of course after 1964 the Mark IV engine would beat the Z-11 silly, but then the developement had stopped on the Z-11.
=====

Not a Stinger but a Vette

http://www.hotrodscustomstuff.com/vette.html :love :love :love

[oil4kids]

and could you imagine a little ol Z11 nova vs a Richard Petty Hemi- look whos out front

thats Harrell in his Retribution II VS Richard Petty in the 43jr Hemi at Piedmont-

the last picture is the Retribution Nova still in Black before Harrell painted it red
one of the few pictures of the engine in car

[MK IISS]

I can't get my arms around a 409 in Stingray, the though makes me SHIVER!. And it did Zora too, else they would have. Anyway, fact is Mickey Thompson put a Mystery motor in a 1963 Corvette to race in the Modified race they use to race during the Speedweeks back then. And I know for a FACT Zora was SALIVATING at the thought of putting them in production Corvettes. You have to remember, the Mystery motor was smaller and much lighter than the Mark IV that replaced it. Here was a "big block" 427 cubic inch engine with the RIGHT heads that weighed not much over a 100 lbs more than a small block.

That said, I'd still take a Z-11 engine for DRAG RACING, but not for oval track or road racing.

I honestly don't know if anyone raced the Z-11 type head on the ovals. I've only seen ONE single 4 barrel factory intake for these heads, you'd think there'd a been more turning up. I believe, and alsways will, that Chevy engineers compared the Mystery motor to a 400hp 409 at the proving grounds to "sell" the engine. Yes, at well over 6000 rpm it was MUCH better than the standard 400 hp 409. But I don't believe it was a great deal better than a 427 Z-11 engine with a single 4. That's my opinion. Until I see a Z-11 single 4 engine on a dyno against a TRUE 427 Mystery motor, and the Mystery beat it by a LOT I'll stick with my belief.

Of course after 1964 the Mark IV engine would beat the Z-11 silly, but then the developement had stopped on the Z-11.

Z11 equipped 409s in NASCAR


It was reported in some of the stock car racing magazines of the time that in late 1962 the "factory cars" ran the Z11 heads for the last few races of the '62 season. There was an increase in performance but not enough because the 406s and 421s still had an advantage in top speed on the super-speedways.

[mercsrus51]

so how many 51 mercs have ya seen with a 348 three deuces in them??? an with the 2:75 rear I get 18 mpg..and still run with the street rods...and when I open the hood,,,,everyone sez.HEY,, what is that???

[Ronnie Russell]

I dont care if you get 8mpg or 80 mpg. I dont care if your car is dog slow or rocket fast. It just dont matter. That is one fine ride. Congratulations on doing something different.

[Mr.Upholster]

I was one of the dudes around in the early 60's when my friends were dragging these motors.....In my click of friends we called them "Stone Grinders" Wnen the 409's ran good, man they ran good....But they had a tendency to snap valves and eat them and break valve springs like crazy. Talking drag racing here....really pushing it....spinning main bearings was a problem also....We had to put a post in them just to stop them from spinning.....I think there was a big oiling problem with these engines...Since they are just a truck engine, they weren't designed for sustained high RPM use...

[Ronnie Russell]

Boy , did you just kick the hornets nest. Im leaving town for a few days till this blows over. Please be kind guys , remember you are gentlemen, not just the owners of "just truck motors".

[wrench]

...Since they are just a truck engine...uh oh!
:rofl

[fatride]

Well I know for sure that I have a truck block! :cuss

[jim_ss409]

I was one of the dudes around in the early 60's when my friends were dragging these motors.....In my click of friends we called them "Stone Grinders" Wnen the 409's ran good, man they ran good....But they had a tendency to snap valves and eat them and break valve springs like crazy. Talking drag racing here....really pushing it....spinning main bearings was a problem also....We had to put a post in them just to stop them from spinning.....I think there was a big oiling problem with these engines...Since they are just a truck engine, they weren't designed for sustained high RPM use...

Welcome aboard Mr Upholster, :cheers It's always nice to hear from new members, or at least it usually is. :rolleyes: Just kidding. :D Although I can't help but wonder if you're not one of those evil Mopar owners just trying to stir up trouble. :cuss :D
I supose you may be right about those valve train problems. I guess that the solid lifter engines could easily rev high enough to drop valves, bend pushrods and break springs. But I'd guess that those engines were reving pretty high.
The damage was likely done by guys like me that have been known to blow a shift from time to time. :eek: Thank god for rev limiters and shift lights!
I don't think there's any problems with the oiling system though. Some builders drill out the main bearing feeds if they bore the block out to fit a newer big block crank. But aside from that there seems to be no reason to change anything.

[MK IISS]

Ned Jarrett won the 1961 NASCAR championship driving his 409 powered '61 BelAir Spt Cps. Mr. Jarrett entered 46 races with 34 top 10s with only 2 dropouts (DNF's) due to an engine problem. Ned Jarrett finished 4th in the World 600 at Charlotte. That's 600 miles....wide open...foot to the floor. In interviews Ned Jarrett attributed his championship to the durability of the 409 engine.

Rex White finished 2nd in points driving 409 powered Chevrolets.

[oil4kids]

Maybe Phil could get Ned to be one of the guests at the next Convention

[Quickshift409]

I bought a 63 409 new and raced it on the strip and street for 2 years. I must have led a charmed life because that 09 only broke 1 valve spring and 1 rear end in all that time. Shifted at 6400 Launched at around 2500. Spent a lot of time at Drag strips and think I saw Mopars and Fords blow up just as much as Chevys.
QS409

[tripowerguy]

I know, I know! It's just a TRUCK ENGINE ARRRRGH! :mad: :takethat Roy

[oil4kids]

those darn truck engines-

won most of the classes back then- and this one is still running

Bill Jenkins claims he launched at 6500 and shifted at 7200

If i did that, I wouldnt be able to get out of the car- my pants would be a sad site

Great Job Bill!

[brisbane47]

There were no "oiling problems" with the 409, just the supply and pick-up had to work for the application: oval or drag racing. I have yet to pin a main bearing on the 409, and valve spring problems were common to all racing of the "day" for all manufacturers. The oval or endurance racing took the biggest share of the grief due to the cycle factor. The materials were nowhere like the wire we have access to now. As far as the "truck engine"........I think the feelings have been pretty well expressed about that. Brisbane47 PS, Ned Jarrett has not been feeling that well lately, best wishes to him.