What's happening to our hobby?

[RPO587]

As some of you know. I have been looking for a 409 project. I was just over at Hemmings.com looking around and saw a '62 Bel Air Sport Coupe listed for $74,998 and a '64 Chevelle for 60K! I know I've been away from the classic/muscle car hobby for a while, but this (and $12,500 409 engines on ebay) is too much. Kinda puts the squeeze on the little guy doesn't it? Perhaps I'm just entering the game a little too late. :bang
Rant over.
RPO587

[wrench]

Perhaps I'm just entering the game a little too late. :bang
Rant over.

Well, yuppies got money. Maybe they're behind what drives prices up.
Another thing that makes parts scarce is the crusher brigades that are coming into vogue now. More them than us......and we and classic cars lose in the end. :dunno

Tom

[Tom Kochtanek]

I agree things are getting a bit pricey, but the "collector car" market has been doing very well these past few years, and prices seem to be going up. And as Wrench mentions the demand is there from those who have deeper pockets.

Around where I live there seems to be a bit of money (lots of physicians, insurance persons, developers, etc.) and it is not uncommon for a person in their 40s or 50s or 60s to plunk down $30 - $40 K for a toy. They want them complete and done, no muss, no fuss. And then they drive them around a little bit, take 'em to a local show, then sell them in a couple of years. That's not a hobby, that an investment and a toy.

Those of us who are more obsessed with maintaining or restoring older vehicles may not consider that as a hobby either :). Some do it for the business. Couple of guys around where I live do this. They buy an old muscle car, get a bunch of parts to update them, then pay someone to put them together, drive 'em around and bit an d put them up for sale. Anyone with the proper finaincial backing can do this, and it does drive the prices up.

Local real estate developer guy where I live just bought a wavy 1970 Roadrunner with a 383, took it to Maaco for a do-over, bought a crate 426 hemi from Chrysler, popped in a floor console, and now wants to sell it for twice what he has invested in it.... I guess you can ask whatever you want, but that doesn't mean it will sell!

Think about the evolution of what we now call "hot rods". Now try to build one for under $1000 with spare parts and lots of enginuity and some fabrication. In the old days, guys made these for way less and then black primered 'em and ran the bejeeeezus out of 'em :). Now guys plunk down $175,000 and have the likes of (eek!) Boyd Coddington build their cars. Who can complete with that?

That said, I still am able to find good "W" parts at reasonable prices (OK, sometimes I gamble and pay too much!), and that's what is most fun for me. The "Art of the Find", as Doug Marion called it. And when you are done collecting parts, and you fit them all together, you actually get the pleasure of driving the vehicle -- at least that's what they tell me :).

Best,
TomK

[Rockfish39]

Tom K.
You make some excellent points !!!

IMHO, its all relative though.... :dunno

Consider that a new Vette is about $59K (nicely equipped) , new Rustang GT is about $30K (also nicely equipped) Viper GTS hovering around $80K and the wicked Ford GT at about $150K MSPR BTW...don't expect to get one for that though...

Real estate: depends on where in the country you live, but here in Northern VA. $400K is about average for a house that is in within reasonable commuting distance to DC.

Gasoline about $2.30 per gallon

Lets wind the clock back twenty-five years to 1980. The muscle cars that we're talking about here were all less than 20 years old then. SO, they were fairly plentiful and well used at the time. That translated into affordable hot rods. But 40 years is an entirely different ball game in the old car business. The pre-war heavy iron cars were well out of financial reach of guys like me, even in 1980.

That is the difference between a collectible car that is 15 years old, versus one that is over 40. ;)

ALSO lets do some inverse analysis and cost adjust everything for inflation. In 1980 a new Vette was about $15K. So in 25 years there has been a 400% increase. Salaries werent in 1980 what they are today either...

It's all relative.

Rock :cool:

[jim_ss409]

Sometimes I think high prices are both good and bad. The bad part is it's so expensive to get a decent car. But I guess the good part is that the value of the cars is at least in the ballpark of what we've got into them.

[models916]

Chicago area is turning into dog and lawn chair shows. Can't get to the cars for all the chairs. Most people know nothing about their just purchased cars. I am drifting to the rat rod/tatoo'd 50's kind of shows only because they build their own stuff. Most of the guy are into the pre 70's cars. Talk about guys with a budget rod! Is it like that everywhere?

[bignbad60]

If I might chime in guys....it's the smog patrol that drove the prices up.... ....a high school kid today could go buy a 25 year old car to hotrod ie... an 80 Z28 and still find one running for a grand unfortunately... you can't build it unless you stick within the strict smog guidelines...This originally drove everyone to the pre 65 world where we like to live an created a greater demand for this era of cars, when the law changed to pre 75 cars you saw a big price jump in the cars dated from 65 to 75 especially the better known muscle cars............as far as these yuppies with their checkbook cars...I'll never understand it...I don't see the satisfaction of driving basically somebody elses car...it's like having a trophy wife but sleeping alone ....anyway that's my rant for the day..........Keepin the fingernails greasy and the knuckles bloody :beerbang

[JimKwiatkowski]

Mark,since 409's are climbing in prices,why not do a 348 :dunno .Install a 409 crank,rods and pistons,do some 348 heads and you have a nice w-motor you can afford.Carlk60 has a cheap 58 4 door in the for sale adds At least you have something :dunno

[Tom Kochtanek]

I can sympathize with many of you regarding these "driven up" prices. We all wish we had kept our cool stuff from the 70s, but for whatever reasons we gave it away/sold'em/etc. for next to nothing (in today's dollars, as Rockfish points out).

I also know the "Yuppy mentality", and what they go through in their all-consuming lifestyles. They often face huge responsibilities (stuff that makes you sleep poorly) and decisions that affect many, mnay persons. For this they are often rewarded what seems to be unreal salaries and bonuses. But so often their lives are a mess of tangled politics and administrative nightmares. I've done this stuff a bit, and it's not as much fun as what I do now :). Unfortunately (by today's standards) I did not receive major recompense for my sins....

So let's say you work hard all week long, sleep poorly, attend toooo many meetings, and at the end of the day it's martini's that calm you down and enable you to get a few hours sleep before you do it again. At the end of the year you get a bonus (never got one myself, let alone a significant raise...) and you're wondering what to do. the wife and kids want a swimming pool, you want to return to those good old days. So you buy a Chevelle, GTO, Mopar, whatever, to drive ocassionally, to get those old times back. Then you put 'er back in your three car garage. Since you probably tricked yourself into thinking this will be a good investment (maybe you followed the Barrett-Jackson auctions in January) and you have lots of cash, you aren't to worried about the price, just the fact that the car is turnkey.

I know this is not what some of you guys want to know or hear, but these people do exist, and have expendible money for what they consider a "hobby'. I don't think this is our hobby, but it is there's... And therefore anyone with these rare parts that is in the "business" of buying and selling parts thinks we all have tons of money, and the market will sustain these inflated prices. Maybe they will, who knows?

But I do know from firsthand experience that not everyone is into Ebay, not everyone has a global market for their parts, and some just have old ferrous stuff laying around gathering oxygen. So there are deals out there to be had, but it's not as easy as it once was. To combat this we join forces and find/trade/deal amongst ourselves for good values. At least that's what I intend to do!

I do not plan on selling anything, but I do continue to search, dicker, and acquire, just like in the past. Only I need to take a bit more with me when I negotiate :). And like anything else, be prepared to walk away if the price is unfair or the merchandise unfit. I guess like Rock says, it's all relative.

And as Jim mentions, these restos that some of us do require major commitments of time and money, and somehow these higher prices can give me some respite that I am not throwing my time and monies away.

I am glad the guys I play with (more mechanical minded than I) want me to be a part of each of the subassemblies associated with my project. So at least I'm in there stripping paint, sanding, assembling engines, and making mistakes that they can catch :). I learn a lot that way, and make a sort of "bond" with my collective components. Hell, late at night before I go to bed, I go down to the basement and garage and say goodnight to my parts and proejcts :) Oops, now you know I have a problem that cannot be corrected! And know you know why I would rather give something away (to a colleague) than sell something to a random buyer found throught Ebay/etal. No, I am not giving things away for the present (except for that "W" block to TomO!), but I do look for parts for others. Don't want to keep the real diehards from enjoying our hobby!

And to me, it's a hobby in the true sense, not just some temporary investment. I plan to pass everything down to my two boys ages 19 and 22. Maybe they'll catch the fever as well, who knows?

Pass it on!

TomK

[TomO]

Tom - VERY well said. I agree with your comments. 3 kids/one on the way and a wife that stays at home does take a toll on the "extra" cash that I have to spend on making my W block dream come true. I do truly appreciate the "W" that you are sending my way and hopefully I can return the gesture some time soon.

TomO

[Ronnie Russell]

Many people between the ages of 55 and 65 have done quite well financially in their lives. Unfortunately that does not describe me. I do not admonish them for their success, I envy the man who can pick up the phone and order any part he wishes. Those of that age group buy the cars today that they lusted over when they were young but could not have for one reason or another. They will spend huge bucks for the 409, GTO, Chevelle etc. they wanted when they were young. There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. We live in a free marketplace society and I wouldnt want it any other way. Prices are dictated by supply and demand, so these cars are soaring in value because of the wealthy buyers in todays market. How long will this market last? Noone can tell. We are lucky to be involved with an interest in a particular type of car (engine) that very few people know much about when you consider the scope of "all special interest cars". Thats why I thank my lucky stars that I found this web-site a few months ago. I genuinely care about the new " builds" that my new 348-409 buddies are into. I want to see them succeed. Do you think that other Forums are this close knitted? I think not. As far as prices go, we can only keep "beating the bushes" and try to collect the parts we may need in the future. For those who can afford to purchase a restored 409 car, I applaud your taste in cars. For those who can afford to restore a w-head car , I applaud your hard work and patience. We cant change the car market so we each will go on doing the best we can. Is it worth it? Be honest- When you drive your 409 to a car show and park between two beautiful Corvettes and people make a wild dash to look at your car and ignore the Vettes----Isnt that what its really all about? Yes , its expensive--- these 409s --- but worth all the time and money.

[bignbad60]

I for one am not begrudging anyone owning any car they choose , just don't always understand their choices...As for me I enjoy the bond you create by building,creating ,restoring, whatever....even if you are not capable of turning the wrench yourself it's gratifying to be part of the process....it's great to hear the intensions of some of the members who hope to pass their passion to their kids, hope they all come aboard , that's the only way our " sport " will stay alive.....everyone wants a 409 , but I for one went with a 348.. I don't think the "mother of the 409" gets the praise she deserves...plenty of under the hood cool factor and with today's stroker choices you can run next to most 09's....the 348 is a great affordable alternative to the 409.......as far as finances go , I'm one of those guys who could probabally come up with the cash to buy any turn key 409 outhere.....but I prefer to build my little 348 stroker to put in my 60 that needs bodywork and interior work yet and probabally will cost me more in the long run than buying someone else's car , but what an adventure ...I wouldn't miss this ride for anything...I'm proud to drive my car and enter it in the local shows as being under construction and have no hesitation to park it between any :beerbang two vets or any 409 car for that matter..........Appreciate all the help everyone has given to me on this site and hope to one day have some knowledge to pass on to the next newbie.....as far as hunting for parts, as they say it's the thrill of the chase

[Tom Kochtanek]

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that the Mother of the 409, that 348 fatblock, is going to be seen more often in the "Rat Rod" scene than it has in the past. This will someday put the 348 up on the same pedestal as the 409. To us, it already resides there, but there are some (generally the performance guys) that might think the 348 less desirable. You basically pay for rarity and for performance.

I bet 2 years ago you'd not have thought that those 340 horse 817 heads would go over 500 bucks, and who would have thought that 690s and 583s would approach $2000? Next we'll see modified 379 heads and 333 truck heads start going for more than $100. Who's buying them? Besides me (us) I bet all those guys contemplating old school hot rods who are looking for something other than small block and big block Chevies, that's who. OK, there'll be a few nailheads out there, and some other vintage iron, but those "W" valve covers are starting to gain retro excitement, and we're starting to see them on cars other than the "X" frame and the other Chevies.

Horses are not the issue for these guys, looks are. And we are lucky (and cursed at the same time) to have one great looking nostalgia engine that is part of our hobby/passion/quest. But this also attracts those who build their rides to show of the engine compartment, the hot rod sect. Good guys, just like us. But their added demand could put the "W" in some jeopardy in terms of demand (and subsequent pricing).

Me, I see or hear ocassionally of 348 enignes laying around, and my standard reply is $100 if stuck, more if not. I pass on a lot of them who are asking $500 for a totally frozen "W" block (unless it a 409), but I am certain there are those out there who would not blink and then shell out the cash. Pretty soon the good ones will be taken (hopefully by hobbyists, not speculators) and prices will correspondingly go up. So I am not hording them, but actually have plans to build multiple drive trains for various 1961 and 1962 vehicles I have acquired. I prefer to acquire now, aas I see prices only going higher (at least for now).

Now we need to get an old whipped out but complete 348 engine and a car to put it in for WW in Oneida, New York. That will keep him busy for a few years, and he can practise his hands on crafting of these fine vehicles and their engines :). There's gotta be a way that we can get one from that area, or perhaps ship him one using some clever cost cutting scheme! WW, I'm looking out for you, buddy :).

Cheers!
TomK

[ww19581965]

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that the Mother of the 409, that 348 fatblock, is going to be seen more often in the "Rat Rod" scene than it has in the past. This will someday put the 348 up on the same pedestal as the 409. To us, it already resides there, but there are some (generally the performance guys) that might think the 348 less desirable. You basically pay for rarity and for performance.

I bet 2 years ago you'd not have thought that those 340 horse 817 heads would go over 500 bucks, and who would have thought that 690s and 583s would approach $2000? Next we'll see modified 379 heads and 333 truck heads start going for more than $100. Who's buying them? Besides me (us) I bet all those guys contemplating old school hot rods who are looking for something other than small block and big block Chevies, that's who. OK, there'll be a few nailheads out there, and some other vintage iron, but those "W" valve covers are starting to gain retro excitement, and we're starting to see them on cars other than the "X" frame and the other Chevies.

Horses are not the issue for these guys, looks are. And we are lucky (and cursed at the same time) to have one great looking nostalgia engine that is part of our hobby/passion/quest. But this also attracts those who build their rides to show of the engine compartment, the hot rod sect. Good guys, just like us. But their added demand could put the "W" in some jeopardy in terms of demand (and subsequent pricing).

Me, I see or hear ocassionally of 348 enignes laying around, and my standard reply is $100 if stuck, more if not. I pass on a lot of them who are asking $500 for a totally frozen "W" block (unless it a 409), but I am certain there are those out there who would not blink and then shell out the cash. Pretty soon the good ones will be taken (hopefully by hobbyists, not speculators) and prices will correspondingly go up. So I am not hording them, but actually have plans to build multiple drive trains for various 1961 and 1962 vehicles I have acquired. I prefer to acquire now, aas I see prices only going higher (at least for now).

Now we need to get an old whipped out but complete 348 engine and a car to put it in for WW in Oneida, New York. That will keep him busy for a few years, and he can practise his hands on crafting of these fine vehicles and their engines :). There's gotta be a way that we can get one from that area, or perhaps ship him one using some clever cost cutting scheme! WW, I'm looking out for you, buddy :).

Cheers!
TomK

Tommy K.: Thank You Very Much For Looking Out For Me-I Really Appreciate That
Alot!! We Had A Nice Discussion, At Norkwalk, About Different Car-Engine Combinations That I
Was Interested In Buying, Someday.But, Because Of My Serious Financial Problems, Limited Resources, Lack Of Experience In Auto Restoration, And, Lack Of Enough
Time To Continously Be Able To Work On Such A Major Time-Consuming Project,
The Car Would Have To Be A Solid, Driveable, Near-Complete, Roadworthy,Clean,
State-Inspection Passing Vehicle. It Need Not Be Fully Restored Or Show Quality.
However, It Must Be Mechanically Sound. In Other Words, A "Work-In-Progress"
That Will Not Look Too Ratty Or Unpresentable. That Means, I Will Have To Be Very
Careful And Selective When Looking For, And, Choosing The Car I Want To Buy.

I Agree With The Fact That The 348 Stuff Is Alot Less Expensive Than The 409 Stuff, Complete Engines And Cars Included. Therefore, I Will Be Looking For,Mainly,
A 348-Powered Full-Size Chevy In The Lighter Weight 2-Dr. Or 4-Dr. Sedan (Mainly
Biscayne, Bel-Air, Del-Ray, El Camino; But Will Consider Other Sedan-Type Cars).
In Order To Be Period-Correct, I Would Want It To Be A '58,'59,'60,or'61 Chevy.
1/2 Ton Pick-Up Trucks Between '58-'61, And, The 1961 Impala 2-Dr. SEDAN May
Be Considered. Thanks Again, Tommy K., And, The Rest Of The Website, For All Of
Your Support And Encouragement!! Regards:"ww".