Taking her Apart - Some Questions ??

[Nuts]

All,

As you may remember I had some oil leaks on the 409, (Just installed). During the checking of the oil leaks we discovered there was water in the exhaust headers. A pressure check left over night filled the #4 cyclinder with water. So the dissassembly started today. I have a couple of questions ????

As I was removing the headers on the left side (drivers), I noticed water coming out of one of the bolt holes for the headers. Do some or any of these go into the water jackets ??

There is NO sign of oil under the valve covers on the right side (Pass) and little or none on the left side. The right side valve cover had rust from condensation and all most no oil anywhere except in the front most drain area. The left side had some along the lower drain holes but none around the top area. This does not seem right to me, put this is my first 409 ???

The distributor had crud built up along the top of two of the lobs along the shaft. I put no lub on this shaft when I installed it. Where would this crud come from ???

I will be pulling the motor and removing the right side head to check for cracks and or a bad head gasket ?? Any thoughts on the above are appreciated...

[JimKwiatkowski]

Nuts,exhaust ports on 4&6,the lower bolt holes go into water jackets,the same with 3&5 exhaust ports.This is an easy fix with thread sealer,I use permatex on the header bolts.

No oil in the Valve train could be the Distubtor not lined up proplery with oil passages to the heads,or the rear cam bearing could be lined wrong on your oil passages.

[jester]

Well said Jim. :cheers

[Nuts]

No oil in the Valve train could be the Distubtor not lined up proplery with oil passages to the heads,or the rear cam bearing could be lined wrong on your oil passages.


Okay so how do I insure that the oil passages to the heads are lined up ??? That's a new one for me...

[jim_ss409]

If you look at the first photo of a 348 distributor you will see a groove cast into the lower part of the housing. (look right above where the numbers 348 apear in the caption) The groove runs between the lowest two machined surfaces. This groove lines up with oil holes in the block the groove becomes a passage that alows oil to get to the heads. BUT, the problem is the groove doesn't go all the way around. You can just barely see this in the second photo that I got from Wrench's site. http://wrench.vox.org/index.php So, if the distributor isn't aimed the right way the section with no groove can block the oil passages in the block. A surefire fix for this is to grind the groove out so that it goes all the way around. But if you leave it as is it's important to install the distributor so that it's facing the right way. I'm working from memory here but I think that it should end up facing pretty much the way it's facing in the first photo, if you were veiwing it from the front of the engine. The section where there is no groove should be at the back. You've got a bit of grace here, it doesn't have to be perfect but if it's out by about a quarter turn or so you can expect big problems.

[JimKwiatkowski]

If your distributor is lined up,the next thing to check would be your rear cam bearing.The cam has to be removed and the rear soft plug has to be removed.There is 3 holes in your cam bearing that must be lined up with the 3 oil passages in your block.

[Mr Goodwrench]

jim I hate to disagree with you because I'm sure you have more experiance than me, but wouldent it be better to pull,clean and seal the headbolt rather than the hedder bolt? after all that is the source of the leak. If you seal the hedder bolt without re-sealing the headbolt it will cause coolant to build up around said headbolt, and may be forced out under the bolt. just my thoughts like I say I dont want to doubt you knowlege.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Goodwrench,your right about the head bolts,but I had permatex on my head bolts and it still leaked at the exhaust bolts.

[SteveD409]

What Jim said--mine leaked at the exhaust manifold also.

SteveD

[jim_ss409]

The leak must be a comon problem because if I'm not mistaken Showcars includes a can of bars leak with the rebuild gasket kit.

[Mr Goodwrench]

seems to be a problem with some people. I've just been lucky I guess, heres my proceedure. make sure headbolts and holes are ABSOLUTLY clean and dry, I install the heads, put a few drops of oil arround the head where the headbolt goes, dip the threadded part of the headbolt in a fresh can of "Brushtack" install, snug and go through you tourqing sequence. 25 years I quit counting how many engines I've assembled never had a leak. also as we all know this only applys to engines that have headbolts that go into water, all other ones I just use oil on the threads.

[JimKwiatkowski]

I'm not sure,but the lower bolt holes on exhaust ports 4,6,3 & 5 have the holes drilled into the water jackets on the 690's heads :dunno

[Mr Goodwrench]

I thought they just intersected with the head bolt holes :dunno

[Nuts]

All,

Thanks for your informative replies... I'm not seeing the groove in the pictures but will inspect my Mallory Unilite distributor when I get home today, that should help. I still have a question though...

Where is the proper start point of the groove ? If you are turning the base of the distributor to adjust timing, where do you start it so that it's still lined up after adjusting the timing ?? I belive that the two holes in the shaft were facing generly toward the front when I installed the distibutor but will have to varify. I had no knowledge of the groove, so I installed it just like I would have a SBC distributor. #1 at TDC, rotor offset to the right (counter clockwise) so that it lines up with #1 plug wire after it drops into place ??? :dunno

[JimKwiatkowski]

I had a Mallory Unilite dist in my 09 and the 3 wires from your dist body should be facing to the drivers side,I'll also check my Mallory dist when I get home from work

[Nuts]

Jim,

I checked the distributor and don't see any grooves between the bottom two machined rings. I checked the JEGS webpage and this is the correct distributor for the 348/409..

Here are some pictures... Note the build up on the top of the bottom two rings ???

http://thumb8.webshots.com/t/64/164/4/42/68/444344268NGZScd_th.jpg http://thumb9.webshots.com/t/63/63/4/38/29/444343829dAHQJo_th.jpg http://thumb14.webshots.com/t/61/61/4/48/54/444344854abaMCd_th.jpg http://thumb6.webshots.com/t/57/157/4/47/66/444344766ubWDgB_th.jpg

Here is a link to some larger pictures... The distributor (http://community.webshots.com/album/106281129eAODNN)

[JimKwiatkowski]

Nuts,here's 2 photos of my Mallory.

(1) Distributor should be installed with the mallory sticker towards front of car,rotor should be just right (drivers side) of the red arrow,and thats were I put #1 plug wire

(2) This is the photo of the blocked area in my oil groove,this should be facing the drivers side.

Note I cannot enlarge your photos you posted :dunno

[JimKwiatkowski]

Nuts,you must have a newer distributor,it looks like the blocked area has been machined out of the lower groove,so this means bad news the dist is not your problem :doh .Here's a couple of more questions.
(1) did you prime your engine,if you did get any oil to rocker arms?
(2) did a machine install your cam bearings and if so have they worked on 409's?
(3) if a machine did your work will they stand by there work?
(4) like i said before your cam needs to be removed and the rear camshaft soft plug needs to be removed,the 3 holes in your rear cam bearing need to be lined up with the 3 oil passages in your block.

[Nuts]

Jim,

Looking at the pictures you posted, your shaft does not have the two holes that mine has ?? I have it installed just as you said, with the mallory tag to the front and the #1 plug wire on the right side of center.

Yes I primed the motor using a priming rod, not a distributor. We rotated the motor and primed for a thirty seconds on each turn. The pressure was up to 60 lbs.

The motor was built by a well known shop who works exculsively on 409 motors. He said he would stand behind any parts I need replaced.

Maybe I'm getting oil up in the rocker area, I haven't checked with the motor running, and now it's in no condition to start !!! I just thought it looked like there was little or no oil there when I removed the valve covers. I would think that the oil would pool in the low spots along the valve train ???

How is the oil carried up to the valve assembly ? Does the distributor shaft pump it up ? The post on starting a new motor said that if you use a rod instead of the distributor shaft you would not get oil to the upper part of the motor ???

[JimKwiatkowski]

Yes I do have the same two holes you do there not in the photo.The priming rod is good only for priming the rod and main bearings,you need an old 348 or 409 dist to make a priming tool,or Show-cars sells priming tool,I'm adding a photo of show car priming tool.

Ok how does oil get to the overheads?The 3 holes in the rear cam bearing that are lined up with the oil passages is were it starts,1 oil passage come from pump,the other 2 holes are right and left heads,these 2 passages come to the lower groove of distributor,this groove feeds 2 more oil passages that go through lifter bores,the lifters pick up oil and push up through pushrods to the rockers.I hope you understand :dunno The lower groove on the dist is important to complete the passage circuit.

Since your heads are off,I would get a priming tool and see if you can get oil to the tops of your lifters

[Ronnie Russell]

Nuts, All of JimKwi information is " dead on" accurate. I can only add that I have seen more than one " well known" machine shops install rear cam bearing incorrectly. As a matter of fact, I too am suffering some machine shop horrors right now. Its getting so frustrating ( machine shop problems) that Im thinking about giving it up and dragging out the golf clubs. Im afraid with your multiple problems , you may have to tear motor back down to check everything out. I wish you success.

[Nuts]

Ronnie and Jim,

I'm still processing all this great information - Thanks... I will have to finish getting the motor out of the car to see some of the problems and attempt to fix...

Ronnie - don't give up man, all things will work out in the end. Take a couple of days to play with the clubs and everything will look better, I'm sure. I'm still holding out hope that there will be a fix for my problems that doesn't require a complete new motor... Sure will be fun to drive if I ever get things worked out !!!

[Nuts]

Here is a quote from the Dr 409 Webpage about oiling and the distributor. I didn't put any oil in the oil galley around the shaft, could this be part of my problem ?? How does one do that exactly ???

We strongly urge you to fil the oil gallery groove competely around on all distributors to avoid potential oiling problems to one side of the engine.

[Mr Goodwrench]

My guess is he ment to say FILE, if you make the groove continuious all the way around the dist it will oil any direction it's installed.

[JimKwiatkowski]

Good answer Goodwrench,I thought it said fill groove with oil,I've been thinking how to fill the groove with oil :doh

[Nuts]

Okay, so here is where I stand today....Based on all the information you all have given me, I think, there should be oil coming into the distributor shaft area under pressure. This morning I put the priming tool in and spun up the oil pressure (70 psi), there is no sign of any oil getting into the shaft area ? Looking down the hole and spinning up the pressure I see no sign of oil at the end of the cam where the distributor gear is or any coming out of any of the holes along the length of the shaft ?

My priming tool has no bearing surfaces; it is just a straight shaft approx. 3/4". If my assumption is incorrect, then how do I check to see if there is oil getting to the shaft area ? If there should be oil in the shaft area under pressure then that tells me the cam bearing must have turned or was installed incorrectly ?

I guess that brings me to the question, at what point do I cut and run on this motor ? The builder has offered to take it back and refund my money but I don't know where I'd get another one right now ? So I've got to decide where to go from here. The builder is a nationally known shop and I believe qualified and knowledgeable on these motors. I know that sometimes stuff just happens, but where do I say; I don’t trust this motor ??? :dunno :scratch

[Mr Goodwrench]

well here's my 2 cents worth #1 I dont think the rear cam bearing placement has anything to do with oilind the rods and mains, if you say you have 70#s of oil pressure even if the cam bearing is installed incorrectly (and I'm betting it is) I dont think that would hurt the bottom end. #2 I would pull engine , inspect rear cam bearing, fix if needed. look at cam and lifters (they will have to be removed to fix bearing. If they seem to be ok re-install. #3 you MUST use a dist when you prime the engine, that groove on the bottom of the dist is what directs the oil into the correct passage to the lifters, and eventually the top end of the engine. 70#s of oil pressure, you should have seen oil gushing out of those oil passages right above the cam gear.

[JimKwiatkowski]

I agree with everything goodwrench said,Nuts are you using a priming tool like the photo I posted on page #1?If you are,pull the last 2 lifters (back of engine) look down the lifter bores and see if oil is going through oil passages in the lifter bore.

[Nuts]

Jim,

I don't have the correct primer tool, but I figured is the oil was going to get to the valves, it would be coming into the distributor shaft area. I get no oil anywhere in that area so something must be plugged off. I plan to have the motor out of the car tomorrow so Ill do some more checking and update everyone...

Thanks for all your help
Bill

[JimKwiatkowski]

Bill,you need a priming tool to complete the oil passage circuit,the groove on the lower part of the distributor acts as a oil passage.Look down the bore that the dist fits into the block,you will see 3 holes in the bore,the 2 lowest holes are lined up with the groove on your dist,the back hole comes from the oil pump,the front hole go's to the lifer oil passage on the right side of your engine,this passage feeds oil to your lifters and the go's up your push rods to you rocker arms.The left side of your engine gets oil from the rear cam bearing that has a groove in the bearing.So do you understand how important this groove is to complete oil passage circuit?I'm posting the photo of my priming tool,you will need one to prime your engine after your repair job,I got mine from Show Cars.

In the mean time you can use your priming rod and see if you get oil from the rear hole on your dist bore.

[Nuts]

Jim,

I understand that the distributor carries the oil to the valve train, but if there is no oil coming into the distributor hole then there must be another problem somewhere. I have ordered the priming tool for priming after I figure out whats going on.

My question is; Why is there no oil coming into the distributor shaft hole ?" There has got to be another blockage somewhere... The system comes up to pressure at the gauge (70 psi), but if it's not coming into the distributor it wouldn't be carried up anyway.

I have a spin on filter adapter, but I left the original bypass assembly in per the instructions. Maybe nothing is getting past the filter ??

[JimKwiatkowski]

I'm posting a photo of my distributor,are you talking about these holes?If you are they have nothing to do with getting oil to your overheads,they are put there so they can lubricate your dist shaft inside the dist housing.The lower groove on your dist housing is the oil passage to the overheads.

Here's a link from a year ago that might help you out.

http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2996

[Nuts]

Jim,

I sorry that my explaination is confusing... There are three holes in the block that are open into the cavity that holds the distributor. If there is no oil coming out of any of these holes under pressure from the pump, then there is no oil to be pushed across the distributor shaft and on up to the valve train.

My question is simply this... When I prime the oil system with a drill, should there be oil coming into the cavity where the distributor shaft goes ? If so, then I've got a problem because there is none... :dunno

[jester]

I'm sorry, but I have to ask the stupidest question of the year,
When your priming are you turning the pump in the right direction? Sorry, I just had to ask that question. I'll take my medication and go back to sleep. Have a great day. :?

[JimKwiatkowski]

Bill,if you have no oil coming out of the back hole,then your cam bearing is not lined up and its time to pull your cam and check the bearing.

[Nuts]

Jester,

Well now that's a good question. I'm turning it clockwise it that correct ??? :bang

[64ss409]

Clockwise is correct. If you were turning it backwards, you would not have had 70 lbs pressure.
Ron

[JimKwiatkowski]

Bill,if you have no oil coming out of the back hole,then your cam bearing is not lined up and its time to pull your cam and check the bearing.

Bill,in case you didn't see this post,here it is again.

[Nuts]

Jim,

I did see that and I also ready through the previous post you gave me. Thanks for all the great information and assistance with this. I've got to get the motor out of the car so that I can get started on making all the repairs !!!

There still the issue that started all this, the overheating and water in the #4 cyclinder... Then there is the oil leaks all along the pan... Now the rear cam bearing... Just hope I have not done alot of damage to the motor...

I'll update after I get the motor and and inspected so I can let you all know what's up...

[Nuts]

All,

Just to update you all on were I'm at today... I pulled the heads and the right head was cracked between the #4 Intake and Exhaust valve seats. That explains the overheating problem and the water in the headers.

I'm still waiting for the priming tool to arrive so that I can follow up on the oiling issue. With the heads off I can see that there was oil getting to the cam and lifters, so that part looks good. After the priming tool arrives I'll do some more testing and let you know what I find.