Pontiac Thread,,, post away !!

[dq409]

I once had a Pontiac,, I believe it was about a `64 Catalina. It was one of the best cars I`ve ever owned !! That thing was indestructible !!
It would constantly run two to three quarts low on oil and puke the coolant faster then you could put it in.
But I can tell ya it never died !! That miserable beast just kept getting me to work and back all winter long.
That was a good thing too, cause back then I spent most of my money on beer and pot !!
Not a bad buy for $75 !!!

Sorry, no screen door talk allowed ! ,,dq

[johnnyrod]

Beer and pot chuckle I know what ya mean. I suer wish I had stayed bright eyed back then cause I mised a lot of good deals. I like ponchos allso. John:cool:

[4onthefloor]

"back then I spent most of my money on beer and pot !!"


You must be about 50 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :brow

[MK IISS]

I was part owner of a '61 Pontiac Catalina circle track (dirt) car. It ran in a class called "Hooligan" which was a class for outdated late models. This was back when race cars started out as real cars. Most of the field was made up of '57 Chevrolets. The rules stated you had to run an engine made by the same mfg. as the car and couldn't exceed the maximum cubic inches that were available for the year car you were running. Most of the '57 Chevys were cheaters with 327s but we still had no trouble out running them.

[fatride]

I had a 66 GTO in 72 that would near rip your head off out of the hole, wound it up once and side stepped the clutch, ended up in the ditch along side of the raod. Spun a rod bearing running a small block Camaro top end. I really liked that car. Pontiacs were pretty high class back then. Had a 62 Catalina in 67 while in high school, red with a white top. I was BMOC. I wouldn't pass up a 65 GTO for the right price.

[Skip FIx]

Well my first car I bought was lucky enough to be a 340 hp 409 Impala SS 1964, paid $450 in 1970. Still have most of the motor parts from the last motor that was in it 690 heads, Crane F-Nitro 310.320 .580/.590 lift, Hooker headers, aluminum Hayes flywheel. 12.20s @ 108 in 1972. It dropped a valve(spring bind I think) racing a 55 Chevy and drove it home. Finally found a Impalla SS body a couple of years ago for them. It's an auto though, but stil has the cool console with the tilt up front door in it. My dad's 283 2bbl SS had it with the 'glide.

I was still a hard core Chevy guy, eventhough I got a deal on a Roadrunner I drove in college, until I bought my first NEW car 1978 Trans Am. It was better than the Z28 that year. As I got more into learning the older Pontiac found with the right parts these babies can fly using their low end torque, long rods, long stroke small heads, cast rods don't make for a high rpm motor. In fact one of my racing buddies in the 70s put a 455 in a 65 Chevelle for a street racer. So I got the bug to go faster than my smogger 78 motor would do after a 5.0 Mustang beat me at the track, gone from low 12s with a 400 factory intake and Q jet to high 10s. Shooting for 10.0s with a 500 ci Pontiac in a 79 Camaro I have(rollbar, cowl hood) hated to put a rollbar int he 78's factory interior.

65 GTO project is right behind the Impala SS project.

[bobs409]

Gonna move this thread to the General section. :)

[Ronnie Russell]

Beer and pot............ 2006........... I still have a beer every now and then,, and my favorite time of the day is when I get to visit the pot. My, how times change.:doh

[tripowerguy]

Hayden Profitt ran a 61 Pontiac in SS and went 108 in the 1/4 don't remember what his ET was. He won at Pomona all the time. He switched to 409 Chevy in 62.:clap Roy

[dq409]

Hayden Profitt ran a 61 Pontiac in SS and went 108 in the 1/4 don't remember what his ET was. He won at Pomona all the time. He switched to 409 Chevy in 62.:clap Roy

See, when something better comes around we switch !! Seems 61 was the last year for the Pontiacs !! heee heeee:rofl

I did have a `73 Gran Prix that was pretty fine though ,,,:D

[MK IISS]

The 1962 Pontiac 421 Super Duty was the most powerful production engine you could get in 1962....ruled the NASCAR super speedways. However in drag racing the 421 Catalina had a weight handicap. If I remember correctly the 421 RPO was over $1000.00 not including the 4-spd. The '62 409/409 option was about $375.00.

[Skip FIx]

Some of the early SD heads ported can flow 280 cfm! They were a race head head from the factory.

One neat thing available for Pontiacs is through Pontiac Historic Services from your VIN he can go in the archives and pull what your car was built with and where it was delivered. Since the early GTOs were just options before they had a special VIN code it is about the only way to insure its not a clone.

[raymar58454]

All this is great stuff,but ya know the only reason DQ started it was to get everyone off the superbowl thread.:rofl
RAY

[dq409]

All this is great stuff,but ya know the only reason DQ started it was to get everyone off the superbowl thread.:rofl
RAY

Next year,,,, next year baby !!!:cuss

[IgnitionMan]

Ya know, a Pontiac engine isn't a bad thing in its own right, but it ain't a race engine. If it were, we'd all see it as the default engine for NHRA, NAS-SLOW-BORE-CRUD, and crate Pontiac engines in EVERYTHING, and still in production for use new vehicles, now wouldn't we.

I am surprized that so many Pontiac enthusiasts have no real clue about the engine design, with the most clueless people positioned at the helm of the Titanic of Pontiac powerplant redesign.

Pontiac engines suffer from a weak main bearing area, too low a crankcase/valley area for even the lowest reasonable air management, and criminally dismal porting.

And, the Titanic captains only see one word, ALUMINUM.

Other than that, they are just peachy-keeno-neato-jet, Fast Eddie Bellflower, super double throwdown, full step through, double whoopie, Dude!

[MK IISS]

".....it ain't a race engine."

I guess it was a good thing no one told Fireball Roberts that in February 1962.

[Skip FIx]

Dave we had this debate in the other thread, you just can;t drop it can you. I can come up with just as much evidence you are wrong as you are correct. To see how "bad" they are just look at Kasse's Engine Masters tear down in High Performance Pontiac. 200 dyno pulls 850 hp no bearing , block or heads issues, beat lots of other motors with alot more new design parts available.

The design has in its benefit a long rod, long stroke(350s even have a 3.75 stroke)a small head for most that limit it to a lower rpm torque motor.If the combination is correct you can go fast with them. Jim Hand has gone low 11s in a 4000 lb station wagon with iron heads, stock block, small flat tappet hydraulic cam,cast iron intake and a Q jet through mufflers. His wagon has over 2000 passes and has slowly dropped from 12s to 11s. Has never had a bearing or block issue.

[Skip FIx]

We can nit pick the design of EVERY engine out there for something from the "perfect design".

[SS425HP]

But, Dave, that's what makes the world go around. We are beating a dead horse with the W engine, too. It has been outclassed for years, yet we still try to make it go better. The Ford FE is another. I started racing with a 348, went to the 409 in 63. Sure, I can run better and cheaper with a new style BBC. But that isn't the fun of it. I'm sure the Pontiac guys are the same. They live and breathe their Pontiacs. I had a 62 Catalina a few years back. Liked the car. Cost too much to restore. Parts aren't available. But, some of the newer engines they are making are doing pretty well on the strip, at least around here. I've seen a lot of 10.0s. And that is in a heavy car. Sure, they could be better. But they aren't bad, either. The biggest problem Pontiac had in the 60s was the price. A SD Pontiac was over $1000.00 more than a HP 409. Seems they were higher than the Z-11 cars, too. And, you were never going to beat the factory teams at Pontiac. They had parts available for their racers that no one else could get. And there were factory teams. Under the table teams. Chev had some, too.
I know your point is that if you are going to do something new, like heads or blocks, do it right. I agree. But, I'm not able to look at the stuff and say why didn't you do this or that. They still have some old parameters they have to work with, or work around. That is unless you design a whole new engine. And, I'm sure that isn't cheap. Not at the numbers we are talking about.

Fred

[IgnitionMan]

It is you that just can't stand someone telling it like it is with your precious Pontiac engines. I have a few of them, both stock and modified, and Edelbrock heads, cut and welded, with nice, better ports, but heck, you and your pals are heros with them, just ask you.

Now, for a clean sheet of paper redesign of the heads and blocks, the people doing that sure didn't do the Pontiac community right at all. They just stood there and dropped the ball, duh!

Just how come a Buick 455 beat a Pontiac 455 in a Best 455 test done by Hot Rod, Car Craft, whatever magazine recently? In fact, I think I remember the Pontiac 455 ending up dead last in the shootout, even and Olds beat it. Come on, Skippy, you remember what test that was, post it and then defend just why the Pontiac 455 was last. There has to be a reason for all that, post it.

I remember from eons ago, we at GM used to think that some errant Pontiac engineer had been beaned in the head, made his way into the Chevy section, and tried to make W exhaust ports like he used to at Pontiac, the droop snoots, but thank heaven, got stopped before he really messed the W's exhaust ports up.

[MK IISS]

It's too bad the screen door isn't allowed. This would be an appropiate time.

[fatride]

Come on Dave, quit sugar coating it, tell us how you really feel about us! :evil

[Firepower354]

My first Pontiac moment was in the fall of '65 when I went to the drive-in with dad and home with mom. His 65 GTO had beat her 66 SS396 Chevelle in a stoplight drag and well, love takes mysterious forms...

287 cubes at the '55 onset growing to 455 and beyond can't help but be a little short of breath. (I'm really not the only one repeating himself) All the other GM V8's DID get a "clean sheet of paper major redesign" in the 60's! 425 Nailheads(talk about a bad exhaust port!), 394 Olds, 425 Cad, the W (sorry!) all gave way to newer versions with more performance potential. The Pontiac does fare well compared to its peers. The aftermarket may not have done it right according to some, but those 4.62 bore centers don't help. How "clean sheet" can you do an engine and still call it "real"??? Are T/F guys really using anything resembling a 426H? Nascar SBC changed the port layout, Mopar followed. Deck heights dropped, mains shrunk, Honda rod journals for criminy! Still "real" ? Is Greg Andersons car a Pontiac? The valve covers say so. Donovan 417s really 392's?


After reviewing all my early 60's collection, it seems that some dude named Mickey Thompson did get down the track pretty well with some of those dung heaps. The Royal Pontiac guys did ok too. Sorry but since I wasn't there, I have to use reference material that despite faded pages and a few missing covers, still have a reasonably unbiased opinion.

The only carryover to Chevy appears to be the absurd rocker stud and arm system. Smokey hated it, Zora was appalled.

No, a screen door won't do. Maybe something thicker, with a deadbolt?

[Bam59]

dam, i don't know if i should comment on the "dirtbags on sucking harley's"
thats low man :evil just kidding

[dq409]

Firepower,,, You really didn`t say that did you??:takethat

I`ll show you my dirt bag !!! All 130 cubic inchs of it !!!:cuss








Sucksuki,,,,,, just kidding,,,,

[skipxt4]

WOW! You know things are really bad when GM guys can't get along. I remember arguments like these, going on for days, between Chevy and ford rodders. What's the world coming to?:dunno :clap :rofl

[4onthefloor]

Walkerheaders..PLEASE post a pic of that trim tag if you don't mind...I remember seeing a Skylark/Camino many moons ago...couldn't figure that one out either.

[Skip FIx]

Dave, I never said Pontiacs were the perfect design and no body ever said Buicks weren't good strong torque motor either. I believe in that article they used a TA performance aluminum head, that flows way better than the E head(the only one out at the time).They used a TA intake that is closer to a Victor in height and design, didn't use a better intake on the Pontiac for what ever reason, and it was available at that time. So apples and oranges. They also seemed to use Fulper for engine advice who in the real world doesn't have the best rep. Where was the W motor in it? That test was about 10 years ago also. If you believe Hot Rod, Car craft or who ever would pass a scientific peer review for accuracy that is standard in any other field especially engineering- I have some swamp land I can sell you! I guess you missed the article that out of the box E heads and a new cam made 100hp over factory heads on a tired 455 short block, showing how poorly they perform.

That terrible designed new Pontiac block even in it WEAKER aluminum version has held up to over 2300hp for the Butlers twin turbo'd EFI Pro Mod motor. I guess that weak block with terrible windage issues is a loser! Who needs cross drill mains if it can hold that HP??? But then Marty Palybikins with factory D ports and twin turbos and a STOCK block put out over 1000hp running in the 8s. Pretty weak stuff Dave.

Let's see talking about exhaust ports-what's the first thing a Chevy header does turns the exhaust flow in a different angle, Pontiac port has that built in it. My RAIV heads flow 85% of the intake flow, and they flow with a 690 head on the intake, pretty poor design alright.


You didn't answer the question SS425 asked -what about the W motors here we all love-piston as heavy as a brick 2 bolt mains with small bolts. Chamber in the block sure doesn't have a better design than the Pontiacs you are hammering on, probably alot less effecient for swirl and tumble. They are unique you can't just buy a factory crate motor like them with 572 HP. W s have a cool valve cover and sound. They are few and far between and why they are cool.They are far from a perfect design. I'll keep my Ws too!


Bring your best 455 sized motor that runs on pump gas(at the Chevron!) with a 239 @ 0.050 flat tappet hydraulic cam, a crummy Torker II intake(no VIctor types, no Dominators), through mufflers and tailpipes in a 3700 lb car(no light rods, I'll spot you 50-100lbs! ) and we'll run heads up after driving to the track! Oh you can change to 9" slicks if you want. It can be a W , BBC , BBF. I'll expect a totally redesigned block that will take custom oil pans, intake, exhaust and have cross bolted mains since that is what you expect form a good motor. Oh gosh the DART and BowTie racing blocks don't have cross bolted mains what a design flop I guess all the Comp racers need to be notified, or even the NASCAR SB2, so I guess the only smart engineers are the Ford side oiler guys.

What motor is your perfect motor Dave let us know, can't be a Pontiac, must not be a W, fill us in! let's see the rectangle port BBC head is too big poor velocity-I guess why they do so poorly in B/SA on a small 396, and the chamber is so well design they need how much timing? as I said we can pcik apart the design of every motor out there.

[IgnitionMan]

Oh...wait...I remember now....there WAS a "Pontiac Race Engine".

Oh..what WAS it called?....uh...errrr, was it the Pontiac Big Chief?? Close to the Olds DRCE...why, YES, it was called the Big Chief.

Special CHEVROLET BIG BLOCK RACING heads with different rocker covers with "Oldsmobile" and "Pontiac" on them, patterned after the Big Block Chevrolet engines used in competition, bolted to a CHEVROLET BOTTOM END, with "Pontiac" rocker covers...that was it.

YUP, A "REAL" PONTIAC RACE ENGINE.

[Skip FIx]

But that one didn;t have cross drilled mains either so you blew your own definition. There ere also "Pontiac" SBC heads as well as "Buick" SBC heads for racing, you forgot those.

Do the math 122mph auto car 3750 lbs with a stock block, small flat tappet hydraulic,crummy E heads, Torker II 850 and mufflers. Almost the same combo as that Hot Rod article .

[No409]

i got a 389 pontiac with 68 RA1 heads and intake in my 17' 1962 spico v-drive boat. things pretty cool. im gonna paint it judge yellow, with Judge stripes.

[Skip FIx]

There is a guy on the Performance Years board from Austrailia that has a class racing boat Pontiac powered. They race them on rivers, looks pretty wild as they are small boats. Another that is building new Tri Y headers and has a Pontiac powered Jet boat, I think he may even have some of the RAV heads for a motor.

[dq409]

Ya know,,, even through all this BS we are learning alot about the different engines and designs !!!:brow

Keep it up,,maybe tone it down , but I`ve been learning something every day !!

,,dq

[Skip FIx]

Here ya go Dave, one of the biggest BBC aftermarket blocks-where's the cross drill mains??
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/05_cat_pg8.pdf

There are all kinds of parameters when building a motor too look at,shoot even some of the builders argue over which is better big bore, short stroke, small bore long stroke there was eve a recent dyno magazine article on that. Alot depends on the rpm range you are shooting for and making a complete package(heads, intake, cam, convertor,gears to go with it. Set up for low rpm torque, or high rpm hp.

Pontiac engineers started with a 50s design and modified it be low rpm torque motors to push big tuna boats like Catalinas around town, long rods(0.5" longer than BBC),big stroke, small volume runner heads all build low rpm torque at the expense of high rpm hp needed for a race motor. But using that plan and optimizing all the parts for that you can still go fast.

A stroker W motor is also head limited, eventhough it has a big bore, so planning all the components around the rpm range is the ticket.

www.N2performance.com can help with some formulas for exhaust size, intake size for specific rpm ranges to shoot for in an ideal motor.

[Skip FIx]

Here's an article on the Butler twin turbo Pontiac motor using the poor Edelbrock heads and weak aluminum block, I was a little low on the HP. it shows some of the high end Pontiac race motor stuff.

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0410pon_butler/

[dq409]

OK,,,, This is getting old even for me !!!:cuss

[Skip FIx]

DQ I'll drop it on my end. We'll get back to design thoughts and what we like about the cars.

I think the design parameters of each engine and working within them like the article in N2performance discussions works for all makes. We can learn for all makes and take some that to our own favorite engine and make it as good as we can within its own parameters. Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, Honda. That's where reading break downs of all the Engine Masters can give you good ideas.

W motors plus points big bore helps unshroud valves, big valves in head(comaored to other 400ci range motors) decent flowing heads for 400 ci range, short stroke -less stress at rpm on parts. Down side the chamber in the block requires a big dome making the pistons heavier. Using as light a piston as we can, a longer light H beam rod can help do that somewhat, lighter pins can reduce some of the stresses. To get real radical have the heads use 11/32 guides instead of 3/8 for some lighter valves, longer valves to use a taller spring so bigger lift without coil bind. The new bee hive springs form Comp can help reduce valvewtrain mass also.Cam choice-new hydraulic rollers can give us more aggressive cam profiles to have more "area under the curve". Also higher ratio rockers can do that, Ws already have 1.75s but there are 1.8 BBC available. To get a little more radical using a solid roller cam for even more aggessive lobes. Many manufacturers have pretty good street solid roller selections. You often have to use a composite or bronze distrbutor gear with these.Want to run a big solid , use some of the direct lube lifters with a hole to keep cam lubed to prevent excess wear.

Then coating the bearings with DFL, as well as piston skirts. Pistons tops can get a thermal barrier coating to heat contain heat in the combustion chamber and we've use about as much new tech stuff as we can. My W will have all that stuff. until we make the jump to EFI and tuning with a laptop vs carb jets and rods(AFBs).

When Rich comes out with his heads we can feed those stroker Ws too.

[SSpev]

I just read all this crap:brow How come no one is bashing the 409?:dunno I get beet up all the time for having them. They are just as crappy design as any of the engines mention so far.:eek: If they were so great the would still be making them. Look at the junk heads and intake.... oh wait ... thats why some is FIXING them!:cuss Guess what, EVERY one has an idea how to do it! If you don't like the way it is done GO DO IT YOURSELF:cuss

Buick - if you have ever seen one run, you know they can run like stinck:D My brothers run LOW 12 with STOCK block, crank, rods, pistons (cast), water pump, pan, distributor, quadrajet, damper, oil pump,...Home ported heads WITHOUT a flow bench. After market intake, cam, headers. 78 Regal with ALL the goodies, Through a 7.5 rear:eek: . Race car.. no... fun - yes. One other thing 8.0 CR.

Pontiac - done know much. I got 3 buddies that do (maybe) 2 Machanical Enginers and a machinest. One fella HIS CAR RUNS!!! HOLLY CRAP:D Never been on the track though. Machinest runs his on the round track, pulls awawy from everyone one the straights and can get around the turn:scratch

There is NOTHING in this world of engines that is perfect the way it is. If so why would there be need for improvment, testing, and new products.

409 will always be truck engines, Buick - fansy, Pontiac - weak, Ford - poor heads, Chrysler - hemi, small Chevy - easy, cheap, Big Chevy - fast


It al boils down to how much money you got, how fast you want to go, what do you want to do with it. That is what I ask my costomers.:deal

[Firepower354]

Firepower,,, You really didn`t say that did you??:takethat

I`ll show you my dirt bag !!! All 130 cubic inchs of it !!!:cuss








Sucksuki,,,,,, just kidding,,,,


Sorry DQ, just spreading a little of the fun around. Strangely, you're not the first guy to hit me with a stick for that comment. I've done several Harley Fergusons(JUST CAN"T QUIT:) ) over the years and had a lot of fun doing it. I was even at Batten when we did a 120 inch DOHC injected "Harley" fueler. Man, would that thing go. I'm working up the parts for a 50's bobber flathead or knuck' to go with my 392 A-bone. I wanna do an XR750 style street tracker with a BIG sporty bottom and two front heads too. Scott Parker had a real one out on the ice a couple winters ago at the local pond. Smoked my 750 Shell/Trackmaster Yam bad! Even without the several time national champ aboard......My first corner on my step-dads Superglide rammed both pipes in to the ground, levered enough weight off the rear tire to slide it out about a foot, made me realize it's a different game all together. I now enjoy the torquey push of a big twin for a zip to the pub, but for late night street warfare, the big guns come out. The 'zuke will make 140hp or so and idle erratic, once I pull a plug wire off... This is my new "tame" one.

[Bam59]

dq. think we should let firepower slide?:scratch
late night warfare in flint, mi. hell does anyone still live there.:rofl

[Ronnie Russell]

Please add my name to SSpev post. Agreed with all of it and could not have said it better.:cheers

[dq409]

dq. think we should let firepower slide?:scratch
late night warfare in flint, mi. hell does anyone still live there.:rofl

:rofl :rofl :rofl

I know you were funnin~~ !! Just had to POKE back !!!

After all,, who holds ALL the records in bike drag racing ?? Not the metric bikes,,,, :cheers HD does!!!:cheers

Yes these HD`s do ride differently and there is a different mentality to owning one. The crotch rockets are a different machine all together and have their own feel and reason to own and ride them.

The HD`s I feel take you back to a mechanical time in both the feel , ride and also the design in the way that they operate., sound and feel.

I am in the middle of build a rigid framed 120 ci 130hp 135 lb of torq V-Twin.
I have a buddy that is building,,, get this,,, a 145ci 175hp torq monster !!

Motorcycles are just like cars and engine. Each has it`s own characteristics that draw the owners and riders in that direction.
I try to never put one down on which bike is their choice.

Live to ride !! Cars and BIKES !!,,dq

[Bam59]

dq, your right JUST FUNNIN i have rode next to a few
of them orther guys "just kidding". they are fast. i rode a kz1000 one time never again, had to check my pants after that:rofl . i'm a cross country rider.:brow

[MRHP]

My most memorable Pontiac was a 67 Firebird I bought from the original owner. I believe he was 85 or 90 years old when I bought it from him. We drove it home. I think I paid 250 dollars for it. 326 and a powerglide. Ran good. The other Pontiac was a 40 Pontiac Business Coupe built for my dad. Dual quad 350 Chev ,auto trans, Nova subframe and such. Nice car. My next car after my 62 Impala will be a 64 GTO. I love those almost as much as my 62. GRRRRR

[Firepower354]

dq. think we should let firepower slide?:scratch
late night warfare in flint, mi. hell does anyone still live there.:rofl

Just the very well armed...

To each his own? Rock on! Different tweaks for different freaks!

Gotta love the big grunting push of a giant twin, feels more like being shoved from behind than the asian hit by a subway train. And there's no way to beat the sound/feeling of the 45 degree twin on the gas. Not an evo with straight pipes, that sounds like crap, but a WELL tuned ride. The T/F HDs are something to behold. Even in the pressbox at Norwalk, you can FEEL every firing impulse. Everyone who changes anything without buying a complete engineered package should dyno tune their bike/car/pulling tractor/diesel tow rig/Velocette is missing out.

I'm sure my "new" bobber will make at least 35 rear wheel horsepower ;) Simple and mechanical, visceral, open chain primary, rigid rear, springer front, jockey shift, can't figure how to leave the valvetrain exposed without hot oil treatmenting my tender bits though...

I am truly glad to see HD "competitive" even if P/S Motorcycles have sooooo little to do with what the regular guy can buy. Sure sells the suds, and black and orange halter tops really are an added attraction at NHRA events...

Maybe if Pontiac put a few million or so development dollars in to a clean sheet redesign of their V8, and were allowed to run 890 cubic inches, they could dominate P/S after a few years of dismal failure???? Maybe even lose their 8% weight break and have to be heavier?(had to get back on the Pontiac topic)

[MK IISS]

The March edition of Hemmings Motor News has an article on Pontiac engines...pg 68

"An engineering marvel of powerful proportions."

[CDNpontiac409guy]

The March edition of Hemmings Motor News has an article on Pontiac engines...pg 68

"An engineering marvel of powerful proportions."

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
aaaaaaaaaaah...hu....huuuu.....
I can't breathe:eek:
HEEE HAAA HEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
:rofl :rofl

[MK IISS]

trouble maker :rofl

[thepurelife]

Ponchos really were not bad motors.The thing that has busted me the most is everyone in the ponitiac areas screems poncho but half of them have a olds motors and seek the 455s most of all.I hit the T/A sites sometimes to hear the gurgle.You see the guys with a 403 olds and they have no idea of the webbed main and not a pocho but a olds. but they build the motors top end anyway.I have a 400 poncho and a 455 sealed in storage with 0 miles on them since rebuild.I have just been watching the prices go up till I let them go.You guys know the 75 455 is going for super big money now.Those guys go by "well the were only 618 of them made with the brown insert in the door knob".Then they fight over the price on ebay over a car that came with a stupid small part.I think the trans ams have went way over priced and think also most the pocho motors are through the roof for no reason other then the build up of trans ams fallout.Ponchos are good motors but in no way in my mind out do they chevys.

[thepurelife]

Chevy rules end of story