Mini Starter

[409z28]

Members; Has anyone used the Tilton brand mini starter? I understand they have one that bolts to the original bellhousing mount using the three existing holes. Or does any one know of another supplyer that uses such a mounting. Dont want to try drilling the 3rd hole to use late GM starter with staggered holes. Block has the two holes drilled but dont know of a mini like that config... Any help with name and P/N would be appreciated. Not my car but this customer wants headers and a Mini starter. He pays.....I put. Thanks Mike:) :)

[Tony Salins]

Mike, We use an East Coast Electronics Mini starter that is for a SBC staggered bolt pattern. Bolts to the block. We've run it for 3 seasons now and rebuilt once.

Tony

[JimKwiatkowski]

Fatride told me about this starter and we both us it,a Promaster part # PWM-9200 from Summit for $189.95.Its for an auto,bolts to the block and its for 168 tooth flywheel.

[409z28]

My question is, how many would be interested in a bolt on mini replacement? Hi torque in orig location to bellhousing. Probably at a lesser cost than what is on market now. Will post price when I get some figures, but need to get a feel for market.:)

[SS425HP]

I'm not sure whether a bell housing type replacement would be your best bet. I'm not sure I could use that with the Lakewood housing. I'm using the block mounted starter like GM uses today, I think. It's the 9200 starter that Ray ( Fatride )mentioned. It has the offset bolts. If I could get the offset bolt pattern on the smaller Hi- Tork, or the pattern for the straight across bolts, I could use it. My block has 3 holes. Tried the Hi-Tork first. The straight across holes are either too far apart, or too close. Forget which.
This probably didn't help a lot with your decision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jim_ss409]

The threads weren't the best on my aluminum bell housing so I went with a starter that bolted to the block.

[4onthefloor]

Just came in from the garage and found the Hitachi gear reduction mini won't work on the straight across bolts in the block...dammit...I need that Summit unit now for the staggered mount..what a pain

[Dond409]

I took my straight accross bolt hole mini starter to a machine shop to be modified. I lined it up on the block with a flywheel on the crank. I think the outside bolt hole lines up. Then had the machine shop put metal rod in the remaining holes that wouldn't be used. Then had them bore a new hole at the proper distance from the existing hole. Didn't cost much. Works great. It's still on the car. I do have the starter that I bought from Models916 that is the stagger hole one. You don't want to know what I paid for it. It's for backup.

[W Head]

I have the mini off-set bolt mini starter on both my 348 and 409 for 168 tooth starter. They are a remanufactured GM product. Purchased from C&P Auto Electric-Moore Ok. Cost $100.00 each. Had the one on the 348 over 2 years and about 10 months on the 409. No problems and they really spin the engine over.

W Head
59 El Camino 348-3,2s
59 Impala 409-2,4s

[409z28]

W head,did you or any other members have to drill the block for a hole? This replacement I am talking about is just a take off and put on. No x-tra work and is stronger in power. What you think guys.:) :dunno

[W Head]

No extra work, my 348 & 409 already have the off set holes in the block. Just need to get the correct bolts.

W Head
59 El Camino 348-3,2s
59 Impala 409-2,4s

[Tic's60]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-Chevy-305-350-454-Mini-Racing-PMGR-Starter-HT-PM300_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33576QQitemZ80404 31044

Staggered bolt pattern 57.00 14.00 shipping 168 tooth flywheel.

Spins my 11:1 BBC Chevy over easily!

[thepurelife]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-Chevy-305-350-454-Mini-Racing-PMGR-Starter-HT-PM300_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33576QQitemZ80404 31044

Staggered bolt pattern 57.00 14.00 shipping 168 tooth flywheel.

Spins my 11:1 BBC Chevy over easily!

Works well on built 454s

[jim_ss409]

Tic's60, That E-bay starter looks like a good deal. It sounds like it'll fit a 409, right?

[Tic's60]

Not sure. I know some parts between the 396/427 interchange with 409's. Anyone else know if a BBC starter will work on a 409???
I found a
Palladium STARTER Part Number: P3689S fits both though.

[4onthefloor]

I'm going thru this right now...I bought an "in line" bolt pattern sb/bb chevy gear reduction starter...it doesn't work on an 09. You need that staggered pattern...but I need one with the 3wire solenoid too so I don't have to solder diodes on the wiring. I just sent this seller a note asking about the 3 wire solenoid. The only other question is whether the solenoid clears the block on this one since it is not adjustable. This is darn cheap for a GR starter.

[JimKwiatkowski]

The Promaster has a 3 wire connection and it fits a 409.

[4onthefloor]

Waiting to hear from the guy on EBay...can't beat 57 bucks...not that I want to cheap out at this point...

[dq409]

The one I bought here local bolted right up. I think it was a$169.
I always say you get what you pay for.
I just talked to Bill about what brand he sells and he said he builds them himself using either a Nippondenso or Hitachi motor on a starter head that fits our engines.
Mine bolted right up with no problems and Bill also gave me the correct shim that needs to be used with most of the mini starters.

If others have had good luck with these that have been mentioned those would be the ones I would also consider.I hate cheap crap especially when it comes to electrical parts !!!
Or you can order one from Bill @
Pmx Alternators & Starters
(503) 777-7172
2029 SE 9th Ave
Portland, OR 97214

Bill is a second generation auto electical man. The best I`ve seen or used.
His stock 409 starters I`ve used with out any of the heat soak problems you guys talk about,, dq

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq,are you using rice burner starters :dunno .Just kidding,I agree go with somebody you trust.

[Tic's60]

I agree you get what you pay for but sometimes you pay for just a name nothing more. The ebay starter I refered him to is a Hitachi motor gear reduction starter. Works very nice on my BBC thats not exactly a stock motor:) Came with bolts and shims as well. I was looking at power master and CRV brands but after talking with the guy and I bought this one. He get's the price down becuase that's all he does starters/alternators. Has a solid reputation on and off ebay as well. I replaced the AC Delco reman crap 3 times before buying this one so I understand the crap theory. The only thing that bugs me is the gear reduction sound of the starter and how damm small it is, 6lbs vs 20lbs...
And I took the savings and bought a few other goodies :-)

[Ronnie Russell]

You dont have to convince me , Tic. Every dollar counts around here. When the time comes, I will risk $71 on one. Thanks..

[4onthefloor]

Tic the ebay guy hasn't responded to my question about it being a 3 terminal...do you know if this is the same one you got and is it a 3 terminal solenoid ???

[dq409]

Tic, from what you have said it sounds like a good starter. That is what to look for besides price. Like I said before use the parts that have been tested by trusted friends and built with quality parts. In this case the guy is using them.

I also like the size and weight !!!:D
I was skeptical about using the mini-starter but after installing it the first time it was a cinch !! All I remember is how heavy that dang stock starter is when you are holding it with one hand and trying to start the bolts with the other !!
Then the ugly thought of dropping that sucker on your finger while under the car!! :eek:

[Tic's60]

Tic the ebay guy hasn't responded to my question about it being a 3 terminal...do you know if this is the same one you got and is it a 3 terminal solenoid ???

I e-mailed him tonight and I'll post the response. You have three terminals
Battery Positive, S and R Correct? You need the one to power your coil/point setup when the key is on right?

thanks

[4onthefloor]

Yep...the R terminal bypasses the ballast resistor on startup if I'm not mistaken...

[jim_ss409]

I'm almost positive that starter on E-bay will bolt up to a 409. I notice that he also has a groovy looking mini alternator too.:deal http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8039755177&fromMakeTrack=true

[Tic's60]

Tic the ebay guy hasn't responded to my question about it being a 3 terminal...do you know if this is the same one you got and is it a 3 terminal solenoid ???

do you have one with the two soleniod post R and S?

thanks
Mike

yes we can do that
Thanks, Steve

DB Electrical
5359 Kingsport Hwy
Gray, TN 37615
Call toll free at 800-753-2242
www.dbelectrical.com dbelectrical@comcast.net

Call him first to make sure he gets your order correct.

[4onthefloor]

I don't have one yet but I need one...I don't want to use a diode...rather bolt it right up using existing wiring. I'll give them a call.

[4onthefloor]

Just got off the phone...he said his starter won't bolt up..the pattern is a little different ?????Makes no sense...I better just get the Powermaster deal

[Tic's60]

I thought the staggerd bolt pattern is the same on all chevys with the 168 tooth flywheel:dunno Now the other mini's with the non staggerd pattern wont fit I know that for sure.

[models916]

STAGGER is all the same, must have been thinking of something else.

[JimKwiatkowski]

STAGGER is all the same, must have been thinking of something else.

I agree with models,bolt stager is all the same

[4onthefloor]

I called him on the phon and he said his starter will not work on 409...stagger has to be the same...maybe location of solenoid is wrong..

[JimKwiatkowski]

Here's 2 photos of starters,the promaster and his starter.It looks like his starter will work,if his starter will work on big block it will work on a 409.The stagger on a big block is the same as a 409,it sounds like the guy does not want to sell you a starter :dunno

[Ronnie Russell]

Bob, Buy the damn starter and try it. Somebody has to be first. I nominate you. :brow :) :beerbang

[JimKwiatkowski]

Here's what the guy says in his add.
Fits almost all Chevy V8 engines and will replace the stock starter in 283, 327, 350, 396, 427, & 454 engines.

If I were you,I would take a chance for that much money :dunno


__________________________________________________ _

[dq409]

Bob, If it don`t work you can always resell it on Ebay,,:brow

[jim_ss409]

Okay, I bit the bullet and bought the E-bay starter. (don't worry there's more like it listed) I'll let everybody know if it fits as soon as it shows up.:deal

[4onthefloor]

He specifically looked for 409 application and he said there were no hi-po starters listed at all for 409...probably due to the 3rd terminal but he also said the stagger was a little different !! He was a super nice guy...my money should be good there.:dunno

[jim_ss409]

I think the original 409 starters bolted into the bell housing with two or three bolts that ran parallel to the crank. But the one I've got on my 409 bolts up to the block from the bottom. It was a starter that I had from a prior engine, not a 409, maybe a 396, I'm not sure.:scratch Anyway I'll see if this starter will bolt up, or maybe I can alter it like Don did. If not it should fit my motor home. I need a starter for the drag car so wiring's no problem. I'll let you know how it goes.:deal

[409z28]

Members, after talking to Ronnie Russel he suggested that I clarify the starter issue more clearly. This starter would be for those that have the provision in their bellhousing.. P/G trans or standard shift car. This would give you a choice as there are none on the market now. Later model P/G and some other after market bell may not have this provision.

[jim_ss409]

IT FITS!!! I got the E-bay mini starter and bolted it on and it fits. The tooth engagement with the ring gear looks about right and it looks great. Of course it's made to fit the big 168 tooth ring gear that would have come with a high perf. 409 and probably the regular 409 but I don't know about the 348.:dunno Another problem... The solenoid only has ONE small terminal where the older starters had TWO small terminals. Maybe someone that knows things can say if that's a simple problem to get around. It won't be a problem for me because my 55 has no wiring yet. By the way, this starter is TINY. http://cgi.ebay.ca/NEW-Chevy-305-350-454-Mini-Racing-PMGR-Starter-HT-PM300_W0QQitemZ8041563332QQcategoryZ33576QQcmdZVie wItem

[w ogden]

Thats good news Jim. A starter that works finally. Now about that one terminal...........the S terminal is of course where the solenoid wire goes from the key switch and engages the starter as we all know. The missing "I" terminal was used to bypass the ballast resistor while starting providing a true 12 volts to the old points distributor. Not needed if you are using newer ignition. For those that are using the older stock ignitions a simple aux. relay will do the same thing. Tied to the "S" lead it will operate on start conditions and can be wired to pass a full twelve volts to the distributor. As soon as the car starts and the key is returned to the run position power will be off on the "s" lead and the relay. Simple work around. :)

[Tic's60]

Glad to hear it fit! Yah it's tiny alright but it cranks the BBC here over excellent compared to the Delco 2 ton finger smashing @#$%% that you need a jack to put into place thing:) The missing terminal is easy to work around and even easyer if you use HEI.

So how does it spin the 409 over??

[4onthefloor]

Hey I just put mine in last night...BEFORE you install it..e-mail him and tell him you need the 3 wire solenoid...thats what I did !! It seems like a decent piece for the money...whether it lasts or not is a different sdtory...but e-mail the guy. It's a simple solenoid switch over to give you the R terminal that you need or you have to use some kind of diode.

[dq409]

So how does it spin the 409 over??

My mini starter spins jhust like you said, better then the stock smasher!!:brow

[Tic's60]

Glad to hear that DQ. There's a
"Backed by our famous "HASSLE FREE ONE YEAR WARRANTY". on the starter as well.

[desapience]

Not sure. I know some parts between the 396/427 interchange with 409's. Anyone else know if a BBC starter will work on a 409???
I found a
Palladium STARTER Part Number: P3689S fits both though.

Any BBC permanent magnet starter will work on a 409, and vice versa, obviously.

I have the GM mini starter on my built 409 (w/offset bolt pattern), but, the nose-bearing sections are weak on these starters. If you advance your BTDC timing just a wee bit too much, and the engine hiccups a bit back, BLAM, you'll break the nose-bearing's casting section. It's a very uinforgiving design.

What I'd like to find is a high-torque mini, the STURDY ones without any nose-section bearing sections, that have the offset bolt pattenr. Does anyone know of any?

I guess I could always machine the mounting to correct the straight-across bolt patten to fit the '09' but... it';s de nice to simply have one that came properly drilled to begin with, or already have the offset bolt patten..