spin on VS. orginal oil filter

[64409]

whats better and why?
Thanks, RJ
ps: this is a great site, I give the person who thought of it a pat on the back.

[Ronnie Russell]

RJ, This is another one of those questions where the opinions will be split. I like the stock cannister because of being able to examine the old filter for problems. Yes, you can by a filter slicer and examine spin-ons, but I continue to use the OE set-up.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

As Ronnie said:beerbang
I'm not real fond of the adaptor assemblies... and the two(2) 1/4" coarse thread bolts that are supposed to withstand some 400 pounds trying to pull them apart.
No, I can't say that I've seen it happen:dunno . However, the pressure is real... and the bolts are REAL small:eek:

[bobs409]

I like the cannister just for the nostalgia of it. It's an old Chevy, it should have old Chevy parts. :D Sure they are messy to work with but a true Chevy guy won't mind getting a little mucked up for the ride they love. :brow

The filters are larger than most spin on's so that's also a plus. (of course, you probably could find some type of truck spin on that would be as long)

[dq409]

and the two(2) 1/4" coarse thread bolts that are supposed to withstand some 400 pounds trying to pull them apart.



I still can`t see 400 # of pressure there. How do you guys come up with this figure.? I know weve been here before but I think it is wrong!
That O ring in eather type won`t stand up to 400# either way.

If you pump only puts out say 85 lbs at the highest I`d say you have 85# at the filter and NOTHING higher,,, OK lets go ,,, dq

[models916]

Rick at K&N Engineering Inc. (P.O. Box 1329, Riverside, CA 92502-1329, 800-858-3333, www.knfilters.com) He told us that the company's Performance Gold oil filter can withstand internal pressure up to 200 psi. This filter can flow between 12 and 16 gallons per minute. Nowhere near the pressure generated by the Chevy oil pump.

[Mr Goodwrench]

I'll take a shot at this and I may be wrong, whatever pressure your oil pump puts out say...... 60 psi? thats pounds per square inch so you would take the surface area inside the oil filter canister x 60 :dunno thats if I'm sifering right and did my gosentas correct.:rofl

[CDNpontiac409guy]

JIMMM! ( DQ ).... I know... you're just trying to draw that big-a$$ long winded explanation out of me... aren't you:p :nono1: :D

Mr Goodwrench just said it in a lot fewer words:deal

:coffee:

[CDNpontiac409guy]

oh... I didn't address the concern about the O ring:doh

That O ring fits up into a groove that surrounds 3 of the 4 sides of the body of the ring ( cast iron block on 2 sides, aluminum pressure relief adaptor on the inside ).
The canister then seats itself against the 4th side of the ring, completely surrounding the ring, giving it no where to go.
It wouldn't fail at 4000 pounds pressure:deal :brow

[Mr Goodwrench]

and dont forget about the relief valve in the adapter (unless you plugged it) the spring is pretty light, dont know what pressure it would take to make it start by-passing.

[models916]

Interesting site for filters

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html

[dq409]

and dont forget about the relief valve in the adapter (unless you plugged it) the spring is pretty light, dont know what pressure it would take to make it start by-passing.

Theres another good point !
I see where you all want to go with the "surface area X 60 " but I still say that you have 60 lbs of pressure and thats it!! No more no less,,


Then you have that relief valve that keeps it from getting to 400#.

I know,,, I`m not a math head or engineer but I just can`t see 400#.,,dq

[models916]

There is no hydraulic multiplier here, 100psi is the same in the can or in the line. Right?

[tripowerguy]

Not getting into pressure but p.s.i. is equal in all directions. I'll get out my old hydraulic books and show you how a sprinkler valve works for a wet and dry system. You have at 60 lbs psi 60 lbs on every square inch of the canister or spin on filter. What Aubrey and Goodwrench are saying if you have a 4 inch round adapter being held by two 1/4 inch bolts then for every square inch there is 60 lbs. If you take pi X radius squared you get the square inches. Carrying pi out only 2 places to 3.14 you get 12.56 square inches or a total of 753.6 lbs. Like I said a sprinkler system uses this idea for water to hold back air. You have more square inches on the water side so 40 lbs of water will hold back 100 lbs of air. Like I said I need to get my books out but Ronnie Russell will back me up. All that being said I don't believe that the adapters seal good enough and bypass oil, so I use a canister. Now someone will correct me if I'm wrong.:p :rofl Roy

[dq409]

There is no hydraulic multiplier here, 100psi is the same in the can or in the line. Right?

This is what I`ve said all along !! 60 lbs is 60 lbs !!

They say that you take the area and multiply that and get 400lbs !! WRONG !!:takethat

I think Tripower is saying the same as me,, I think, 60 lbs is the same pressure everywhere, NO MULTIPIER !!,,

If the releif valve is set at 60 lbs it can never get past that.
If you think it is multiplied to 400 lbs I`m sure the filter would explode at that pressure!!:deal ,,dq

[Ronnie Russell]

Roy, Roy, Roy-------ITs been too many years. I will try this, but probably gonna embarass myself. As I remember it , we used a constant of 7 to 1 for test purposes. But the way I remember it , it was 1 psi of air to hold back 7psi of water. Our city had a uniform code that made all the sprinkler systems uniform. They all had to have the same size valve (air to water) In the dry system, the sprinkler system was full of air, when sprinkler head melted, air escaped, releasing the air pressure on the valve, allowing valve to open and water to enter. So the way I remember it, it was air holding back water. If I have it backward, please correct me. I havent thought of this stuff in years. :dunno :)

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Oh come on, guys:takethat :cuss :p

A hydraulic system on a tractor. You have a piston that moves in a cylinder... say with a surface area of 10 square inches.
It pushes a bucket at the end of it, with 3000 pounds force.
How much pressure is in the hydraulic system ?

Geez....

I'm getting embarassed:doh ;)

[Ronnie Russell]

Aubrey, The smart guys dont want to ask, so we will let the dumb guy ask. Are you saying that if you put a pressure gauge in the bottom of a oil filter cannister, that 60psi of engine oil pressure would register 400psi at the gauge in the cannister ? Afraid I dont know anything about tractors, but I thought the piston in the hydraulic cyl. is pushed by horsepower through a cyl. compressing the fluid and then giving it a small orifice to escape through thus causing pressure multiplication. What has this tractor got to do with a 409?:eek: :eek:

[jim_ss409]

I don't know much about hydraulics but I'm with Aubrey on this. I know one thing... If you put, lets say 1,000psi of line presure to large diameter cylinder it will lift more than a small diameter cylinder will at the same presure.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

What has this tractor got to do with a 409?:eek: :eek:

what ?.... WHAAAAAAAT ???!!!
Tractor... truck:dunno ... what's the difference:dunno
;)


Guage on the filter ?
You will get 60 PSI.

PSI... pounds per square inch. EACH square inch has the same pounds exerting against it. Then add up how many square inches there are.

Here's another way to see it:

Your oil pressue guage line... you know, that one that is 1/8" copper tubing.
With the engine running, do you think you could take it off the guage and block the opening of the tubing with the tip of a pen ?
You bet.
The surface area of the opening at the end of the tubing ( calculated from the inside diameter of the tubing, which is around 1/16" of an inch ) has an area of about .02 of a square inch ( doing this in my head here... so don't get out your calculators and mess me up :p ).
So, multiply that 60-pounds-per-inch, by .02..... you get 1.2 pounds pressure exerting against that pen that you're holding in there.
1.2 pounds.
Not a lot, is it ?

Now...
Lets make a BIG pressure line ! Say tubing with an inside diameter of 2 inches. In round figures, this giving an area of 3.142" square inches.
Well...
let's get that 60-pounds-per-square-inch oil pumping out through that opening.
60-pounds-per-square-inch, multiplied by the 3.142.
How would you like to have to block off the end of that tube, holding a flat plug over the end ?
188.52 pounds of pressure.
Maybe my late brother, Rodger could have done it... but not many people could:eek:
:coffee:

[Ronnie Russell]

Aubrey, I do have experience with 60 psi throught 2 in opening. You are correct, you aint gonna hold that backwith a hand. But where is the 400 psi you refer to? If you figure the width of the cannister, to come up with 400psi, why cant it be measured with a gauge?

[gearhead409]

come on guys, this can't be that hard to undertand? another example-- a pin hole in a dam would be eazy to stop the water with your finger but if you were to try to hold a 6'x6' door closed in the wall of a dam, it would blow you away. the water pressure would be the same in pounds per sq. in.

[Ronnie Russell]

Yeah, it finally sank in gearhead, the gauge would be measuring the square inch it is mounted in. :bang :bang

[gearhead409]

That's OK Ronnie! Aubrey has a good point about the two 1/4" bolts that holds the adapter on, looks like a weak point to me. look at the big bolt that holds the old style can on. now that's super duty!

[4onthefloor]

Ronnie...that was a deluge valve and the air side was usually supervisory. I don't think the air actually physically held the water back...man you are taking me back to the stationary enginneer days . I could be wrong...its been 20 years since I drained and reset one !!

[Ronnie Russell]

Bob, The diluge system and dry pipe system were two different animals. The dry system had the huge air valve ( resembled a diaphram housing) . That is why lesser air pressure held back more water pressure. At least thats how I remember it. Most of the air gauges would read 60psi and sometimes develop leak and bleed off under 55psi and the alarm sounded. Our diluge systems were just that. Open heads. System goes off and the whole building got wet.

[4onthefloor]

We only used dry pipes in computer room and garage.Our computer room dry system needed 2 things to happen...air release and smoke/heat to flood pipes and ruin everything....if a head broke we would not get water until heat/smoke. see you got me thinking now...OK sorry to push the thread off subject..

[Ronnie Russell]

My fault , Bob. Know that was boring for everyone else. We can talk FD stuff at Clay City. (or not)

[mpris]

Just for my education, how many millions of these adapters do you think have been sold? Has anyone ever heard of these small bolts snapping off? Does anyone know anyone who has ever had this problem? How many people have heard of someone getting struck with lighting? Is this a real problem. I have always changed mine to the spin on type and have never had any problems. Now I am sure after making that statement, mine is probably laying under my car with broken bolts.

Poocho

[Mr Goodwrench]

if your engine pressure was 60lbs would you really have 60lbs in the oli filter canister? as I said earlier the by-pass valve in the oil filter adapter has a very light spring, I would be willing to bet it dumps somewhere around 20 psi:dunno friend of mine ran a 409 in a 78 P/U with two remote filters up front, after a couple laps around town one night we went back to the shop happen to feel the oil filters and they were stone cold. another 1/2 hr of cruzin and they warmed up. we took the oil filter adapter off and removed the fiber disk spring and retainer tapped it 1/4 pipe (i think) installed an allen headed pipe plug so it could NEVER by-pass. I thought we might have problems blowing the o-ring out of the filters, but we never did. but we never hammered a cold engine either.

[tripowerguy]

I'm sorry that I got into FD stuff and Ronnie you're right it is air holding back water. But the point I'm making is the square inches that the pressure is working on has a direct relation to the force exerted. Some are saying you get 400 psi which is wrong. PSI or lbs per square inch is just that then you multiply that by the number of square inches to get the lbs. of force. If you have 60 lbs per square in. and you have 4 square inches of area you have 240 lbs of force. And it is right I have never heard of an adapter failing. So I hope that we haven't made anyone throw up their hands and say who gives a rip about the whole thing. :stooges Roy

[Ronnie Russell]

Poocho, I used a spin on for 3 years on a race car to gain header clearance. Actually, to get filter farther away from headers. Never had a problem. I can see why many are concerned about the bolts, but in all reality, I havent heard of this being a problem.

[threeimpalas]

Aubrey, I do have experience with 60 psi throught 2 in opening. You are correct, you aint gonna hold that backwith a hand. But where is the 400 psi you refer to? If you figure the width of the cannister, to come up with 400psi, why cant it be measured with a gauge?

Not 400 psi, but 400 lb_f (pounds of force).

Pressure * Area = Force


The two 1/4" bolts shouldn't be your area of concern. They'll be up to the task of handling the forces exerted by the oil pressure.

[Ronnie Russell]

Roy and Mike, I am crystal clear , now, about the differance between psi and pounds of force. But Roy, I blame you for the sprinkler system comparison. I will accept one cold beer for compensation, then all will be forgiven.:brow :brow

[dq409]

Quack quack quack,,,,,,:evil

[rwagon57]

Total force exerted against the inside of the filter housing is the maxiumum observed pressure (psi) x exposed surface area.

Even non-graded 1/4-20 bolts have a tensile strength >10,000 psi. Remember tensile strength is a measurement of the failure of the bolt being pulled along its central axis. The oil pump can not generate enough pressure to cause the bolts to fail.

[dq409]

Total force exerted against the inside of the filter housing is the maxiumum observed pressure (psi) x exposed surface area.

Even non-graded 1/4-20 bolts have a tensile strength >10,000 psi. Remember tensile strength is a measurement of the failure of the bolt being pulled along its central axis. The oil pump can not generate enough pressure to cause the bolts to fail.

Now i can go for that explanation !!!:D

[desapience]

Not getting into pressure but p.s.i. is equal in all directions. I'll get out my old hydraulic books and show you how a sprinkler valve works for a wet and dry system. You have at 60 lbs psi 60 lbs on every square inch of the canister or spin on filter. What Aubrey and Goodwrench are saying if you have a 4 inch round adapter being held by two 1/4 inch bolts then for every square inch there is 60 lbs. If you take pi X radius squared you get the square inches. Carrying pi out only 2 places to 3.14 you get 12.56 square inches or a total of 753.6 lbs. Like I said a sprinkler system uses this idea for water to hold back air. You have more square inches on the water side so 40 lbs of water will hold back 100 lbs of air. Like I said I need to get my books out but Ronnie Russell will back me up. All that being said I don't believe that the adapters seal good enough and bypass oil, so I use a canister. Now someone will correct me if I'm wrong.:p :rofl Roy

Guys, come on now... sure, we'd have a multiplier of pressure/sq in x sq inches, IF there were no free flow in and then out of the canister or spin-on. But, there is free-flow, in and out. sixty pounds in = 60 pounds out, period. Think of it this way... you have a 1 inch square tube leading into a canister, and another one inch square tube leading out of the same cansiter. Oil under a TOTAL pressure of 60# per square in is pumping into the canister, which has an outlet which is also one inch square. Do you guys actually believe that you've somehow created a canister oil-bomb that would magically multiply the pressure in that cansiter to make it 400#/sq inch or whatever? The oil going in would flow under 60#/sq in, and the oil flowing out the 1 in square tube exactly the same (assuming reasonable unresticted flow). The amount of pressure exerted on each square inch of area is the same -- 60#, which, is the highest flow force the oil-pressure could ever have in this case. You're not going to end up having a canister with a built-up bomb-like super pressure to it, that would back up the oil-pump, or blow the canister apart!

[Ronnie Russell]

desapience. Bravo sir, bravo. Very well said. No way am I getting back into this, but your explaination is a logic I can accept and understand. I know dq will also accept this explaination. Thanks.....:)

[4onthefloor]

Me too...especially since I flunked math !!!