Camshaft

[Ronnie Russell]

Guys, I want to re-address an issue because we have several members with new engines going together. 6 months ago, during a phone conversation with a friend from out west, my friend wanted to alert me about a problem they had been having with cam break-ins. This man has many years experience with exotic strokers and dyno time. He had been losing cams on the dyno and researched, finding that the oil companies had been shrinking zinc content, causing the cam problem. He suggested Pennezoil race oil, because it retained sufficient zinc. This oil is not an "over the counter" oil. Must be special ordered. Me, being the cheap-skate that I am, did not consider that. Fast forward to a few weeks ago. models made a post alerting us to a mag. article that addressed this problem. This post is for those who might have missed models post or did not take it seriously. The article states that most cam companies now offer an additive specifically for cam break-in. I will be ordering 6 containers to have in stock for the future. Another reason for this post is that I recieved an e-mail from a friend yesterday who had just fired an expensive 409 build, only to lose 13 lobes in the first 5 min. I have never lost a cam, but I can only say I must have been extremely lucky. I wont be firing any more motors without the additive. It is my understanding that roller cams are exempt from this problem. If I am incorrect about this, please correct me. as this is important to all.

[models916]

A friend at Chevy recommends adding 4oz of GM EOS to the oil at every oil change. Full can for new cam break in. Just pour it over the lifter valley. If you have breathers in the valve covers another option during breaking is to pour a quart of oil in each breather right befor startup. Should blanket the lifter galley with oil for the first minute or so.

[Impalaguru]

Ronnie, where was this message two weeks ago!!! I lost 2 lobes in the first 5 minutes and most of the others wern't looking very good either.:bang
I've also got some feedback about the new oils. I used valvoline straight weight 30 for the break in.

What is this oil additive called? Are there any other oils that have a good zinc content besides the pennzoil race oil?

Thanks for posting this. My 409 is back out and torn down again. I don't want to go through this again!!

Models: Where can I find your post about the article you read?

Ross

[Ronnie Russell]

Ross, sorry to hear about that. I scanned some of models posts, but didnt find the one I referred to. Surely he will be on line soon and pin-point it. Looking through the PAW catalogue, shows a cam break in lube with a prefix CRA. Assume it is made by Crane. Im gonna call Summit to turn in an order Monday, at which time I will ask what brands they have available. Should be about $8 to $10 per container. Like I said, I will be using this stuff from now on for flat tappitcams. Noone should have to go through what you and others have suffered.

[fatride]

I have always used the GM EOS additive and have not lost a lobe during break in yet. Lost lobes later after a few thousand miles but could not figure out why.

[Skip FIx]

The EOS is supposed to be good for this, a few other additives out there. Rotella oil is supposed to have some Zn in it also. Since most manufacturers now use roller cams they Zn has been dropped from alot of oils in the levels protective for flat tappets, some EPA reasons for heavy metals in the environment also. Using only the outer valve springs is also recommended by alot of cam companies. Smaller ratio rocker just for break in is common. There are 1.33 SBF that fit my Pontiac I used recently with success.

That is one advantage to hydraulic and solid rollers-no break in.

[4onthefloor]

I am using a roller...can anyone confirm for sure that I will have no issues ?...I am using Valvoline racing oil ...I plan on firing up within the next week or so !!

[Dond409]

The article is in last months issue of Car Craft magazine. It is in the back of the issue where people write in and ask questions. It also states that lowering the zinc in oil allows the car manufacturers to raise the emissions warranty to 100,000 miles from 50,000. The zinc was effecting the catalytic converters. The article reccommends that engines with flat tappet cams and High spring pressures use racing oil. Engines with roller cams are not effected by this. I would say if you have a race motor with 300 lb on the seat springs you would want racing oil. Even with a roller cam

[dq409]

I am using a roller...can anyone confirm for sure that I will have no issues ?...I am using Valvoline racing oil ...I plan on firing up within the next week or so !!

The roller cam lifter is a wheel that rides the cam so there is no problem like with a flat tappet lifter that needs to turn (rotate) on the cam.
If the flat lifter does not rotate then it will fail rather fast, within minutes.
You can start the engine and watch the push rods to see if they are rotating but to me this is too messy.
I love the fact that with a roller cam you don`t have to worry about this crap.
Been there several time too many,,dq

[Ronnie Russell]

Skip and Don, your facts and reasoning are all correct. The EPA thing about heavy metals is the reason these problems have been more prevelant in the last year or two. My post was made with people like Ross in mind, not race motors. I think mabeauchamp, 348coupe and others are finishing up their projects soon and It would be wise for them to take steps before break-in . I would prefer to use a lube reccommended by a cam manf. if possible. They have a stake in it. The oil Skip recommended that is "supposed to have zinc in it" is not good enough for me. I want to know for sure. I have never had to tear down because of this problem, and I dont want to start now. As I said before, this problem is relatively new. I dont like to use additives of any kind. Call it --old fashion_ just me. But this is something new and will require an additive for protection.

[SS425HP]

When was the Zinc removed? I lost 2 cams last winter. Never heard of the Zinc deal before. Had to remove the motor to get all the cam junk out of it. First cam was 1 or 2 lobes. Second was 12 lobes. It ran maybe 10 minutes. Was thinking the spring pressure was too much, but 130 seat had held up before. Might not have been the springs. They were the same springs I have used in the past. Isky 3105-D Ran for 7 years before it wiped a lobe. Right after an oil change and new springs. Second cam was replacement, and wiped in 10 minutes, like I said. Now I'm wondering. And I have used Penzoil for ever. ??????????
And, like Ronnie, I have never used any supplements. Especially STP!

[4onthefloor]

I knew the roller lifter doesn't rotate...I am wondering whether the absence of zinc would adversley affect an other break in areas ?? Wonder why zinc would help a lifter rotate...thought that would be a function of lobe/lifter shape and spring pressure.

[Dond409]

The zinc is needed to fight the extreme pressure that the cam endures from the lifter bearing against it.

[Skip FIx]

A roller cam is usually 8620 steel and a hardened roller wheel(unless you use the trick Shubecks lifters with ni wheel). So neither are as soft as a cast iron flat tappet cam and break in is no issue at all. Flat tappets also have the edge digging into the lobe especially with the newer more aggressive lobe designs.

With our GM .842 diameter we are limited on how aggressive a lobe we can go compared to Mopars, why the NASCAR guys years ago used mushroom lifters with their aggressive flat tappet lobes.

Their was a discussion on the Pontiac board with Zn levels for various oils, I'll see if I can dig it up and post a link. Rotella T seems to be an easily obtained one , but during break in additional Zn in cam break in additives is also recommended! This is being seen in all makes and has been for several years. There has also been some shake up in the lifter manufacturers in the past few years, leaving many wondering if that was a factor. With all the mergers(no longer separate TRW,Sealed Power etc) they have pushed out some of the smaller manufacturers.

Most cam cards also recommend break in with outer springs only, even my old ones before there was an oil issue have this on them. Most guys I know don;t do this, as it is a pain. Part of why I bought some 1.33 rockers.

Shubeck also has some trick flat tappet lifters used by many of the "stockers"(Aubrey?) that have the base impregnated with a special material that allows little break in and the high spring rates required by the "stockers" cams without going flat. They can also be reused, but pretty pricey.

[Skip FIx]

Here's the list of oils and ash and Zn.

Listed alphabetically

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-50
AMSOIL 136 482 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .9 ---
Quaker State Dlx. 155 430 -25 .9 ---
Red Line 150 503 -49 --- ---
Shell Truck Guard 130 450 -15 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 --- .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 --- .13
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12
20W-40
Castrol Multi-Grade 110 440 -15 .85 .12
Quaker State 121 415 -15 .9 ---
15W-50
Chevron 204 415 -18 .96 .11
Mobil 1 170 470 -55 --- ---
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 152 503 -49 --- ---
5W-50
Castrol Syntec 180 437 -45 1.2 .10 .095 % Phosphor
Quaker State Synquest 173 457 -76 --- ---
Pennzoil Performax 176 --- -69 --- ---
5W-40
Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4 ---
15W-40
AMSOIL 135 460 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400 136 421 -27 1.0 ---
Exxon XD3 --- 417 -11 .9 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 149 495 -40 --- ---
Shell Rotella w/XLA 146 410 -25 1.0 .13
Valvoline All Fleet 140 --- -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13
10W-30
AMSOIL 142 480 -70 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 140 415 -33 .85 .12
Chevron Supreme 150 401 -26 .96 .11
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 160 450 -65 --- ---
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0 ---
Quaker State 156 410 -30 .9 ---
Red Line 139 475 -40 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 155 410 -35 .9 .12
Shell Super 2000 155 410 -35 1.0 .13
Shell Truck Guard 155 405 -35 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40 --- ---
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12
5W-30
AMSOIL 168 480 -76 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 156 400 -35 .80 .12
Chevron Supreme 202? 354 -46 .96 .11
Chevron Supreme Synt. 165 446 -72 1.1 .12
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0 ---
Mobil 1 165 445 -65 --- ---
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .1
Quaker State 165 405 -35 .9 ---
Red Line 151 455 -49 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12

[4onthefloor]

Thanks...Valvoline Racing looks like it has a decent amount in comparison to others.

[Ronnie Russell]

Skip, First , thanks for all the effort you went to . That is truly a lot of information. But just so that I know that I am reading the chart correctly. Red LIne -0 Mobil 1 -- 0 Quaker State .9 Havoline Formula 1 Pennzoil Gt1 10.9 I dont see the Rotella T you talk about. I see Shell Rotella SLA at .13 Do others have the .20 that Valvoline Racing has? You are correct, the average guy is not gonna break in with outer springs only , nor will they buy low ratio rockers, so I still think an investment in zinc additive would be the best way to go for most people. If I read the chart wrong, please correct me. Thanks again for all your time.

[Skip FIx]

Ronnie, I copied the data from one of the other Pontiac guys. I think the Rotella is all the same not sure though.

I agree 100% Ronnie about adding the Zn additives. I broke my new Pontiac in before I had this info but used Valvoline racing 30 wt , EOS poured liberally on the lobes and lifters(also used it to lube valve stems when assembling heads), mnoly on the cam lobes and lifters(although you can see it get wiped off just setting valves) and used some 1.33 rockers. We had an issue on the dyno requiring the valley pan and intake to be pulled and all the lobes looked fine.

One thing that is important for all motors is prelubing the oil system. You can buy a tool from many sources and use your drill to do this. Fill the pan and spin the oil pump through the distributor hole. I prefer with the intake off to see where the oil is squirting and not. Your bearings wil appreciate it.

The Shubecks "roller" replacements don't have a wheel and bearings to wear out, They just have a curved bottom surface similar in shape to the curve of a wheel. Aubrey I had heard some stocker had problems with some a few years ago, but more that love them.

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks Skip, The concern I have had about this, is there are knowledgeable guys who use moly-lube during assembly and go through bread-in period correctly and still lose a cam. I have found a couple of products doing a quick zinc search . Compcams part #159 and Crane Super lube part no. 99003-1 Crane clearly states this is a zinc product additive for initial break-in. They both say to never break in a new engine with synthetic oil. That was news to me, but I dont use synthetic, so Im not surprised I had not heard that. I think there has been enough info posted on this thread, that others with concerns can make their own decision as to steps they might want to take.

[Skip FIx]

I've used the Crane stuff before and it's good. The Comp Red stuff I've seen drip off the lobes if the motor sits awhile so I like something stickier like the moly, then use the Comp , Crane or GM-EOS on top of the whole deal.

Shoot Ultradyne used to just ship a tube of white grease for the lobes with their cams, but their card says break in with outers only.

[mpris]

I believe the new Schubeck rollers do have a roller in them. The are called Roller X. They do not have needle bearings or shafts to support the rollers. The rollers are fitted into the end of the lifter and float on a thin film of oil as they roll over the cam lobes.

Poocho

[jim_ss409]

I notice that Comp Cams recomends Rotella T oil for cam break in. http://www.compcams.com/information/whatsnew/NewsDetails.asp?ListHistoryID=1985582846

[cabriolet409]

Gentlemen,
I was reading some on the Valvoline website about "Racing oil", which I believe is their VR-1 product. I have attached a text copy of their Product Information Sheet (sorry about the weird formatting, it did this when I converted it from pdf to txt).
You will see in the column for Zinc/phosphorus, it lists .12/.12, which is about the same as the other brands SkipFix listed in his post. The interesting part is Valvoline doesn't list units for this measurement (e.g., %) so perhaps this is some other measurement which corresponds to the 0.20% in Skip's post, but I thought it was worth mentioning before everyone runs out and buys Valvoline racing oil if it's no better than the others.

Am I right in asssuming that if you put a bottle of Comp Cams #159 in at every oil change, it really wouldn't matter what the Zinc content of the oil was?
Cabriolet409

[models916]

GM EOS (engine oil suppliment) is as good and cheaper than others. Full bottle on new breakin and 4oz. at every oil change. I think they include a bottle of this with all crate engines and Hot Cam packages.

[Ronnie Russell]

I hope I am not making a mountain out of a mole-hill, maybe this problem is not as bad as I make it sound. I ordered the Crane additive and will use it from now on in flat-tappet breakins. Surely the Crane is no better than Comp Cams or any other major man. I intend on using it for break-in only. Then- business as usual. It has always been my opinion that all major oil brands are good. We each have our favorite for one reason or another. :)

[models916]

Whatever oil you use, add 4oz of EOS to be sure.

[raymar58454]

Just thought I'd bring this back to the forefront again. I'm trying to get some info on an oil brand we used go-kart racing back in the 80's. It was Golden Spectro 2 cycle oil . ( www.goldenspectro.com )We tested a LOT of oils at that time and their stuff was the best. Will let you know what I find but they assure me their Golden Spectro 4 20-50 has gobbs of zinc as motorcycles don't fall into the less is ok. Think about the demands of an air cooled hi rev overhead cammer.

Ray