z11 single intake

[oil4kids]

This part you only hear about

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/REAL-DEAL-Z11-ORIGINAL-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-ONLY-30-EVER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34198QQitemZ463247 0483QQrdZ1

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks Mark, I enjoyed that. I have never seen one. Guess I could go see it in person, if Im ever in K.C. :)

[LongIsland63SS409]

Edlebrock take notice.

A nice aluminum intake would sell.

Mike

[MK IISS]

The is no such thing as a "RPO Z11 Single Four Aluminum Intake Manifold". Key words: "RPO" (Regular Production Option)

Seller's conflicting statements: : "NASCAR issue parts."......."Z11 cars were factory racers with aluminum front body panels."

NASCAR did not allow aluminum body panels.

[models916]

Mr. Reed buys a good piece. Seems Z11 is the generic term for the High port version of the W family of engines. Kind of like Asprin or Kleenix.

[Impalaguru]

I visited Phil and Brad on friday and Phil was VERY excited about that part! It hadn't arrived yet when I was there. I think Phil said it had a May 1962 casting date. Can't remember for sure but it was fairly early.
Ross

[oil4kids]

Smokey Yunick and a few Nascar guys would have know about it- the problem is when they pass so does a part of documentable history

if that part has a may 1962 design then the z11 was in the engineering stages in 1960/61 and maybe was the original design for the 409

i would think the gm engineers liked the pontiac 421 style nascar design which has simular features to the high port z11

the 409 heads might have been throttled back to the 348 head design for production cars

[MK IISS]

I always thought Chevrolet orginally planned to use the "Z11" style head/intakes on the regular production 409s starting with the '63 model year but for some reason it didn't happen. If the "Z11" heads/intakes were intended to be race only parts I believe they wouldn't have had the heat riser passage to the carb.

It would be interesting to know if the Chevy "factory" NASCAR teams (Rex White and Ned Jarrett) used the "Z11" type head/intake late in the 1962 NASCAR season. I was told they did by a factory engineer who used to stop and talk to my Uncle who was a dealer. This engineer also said the 427 crank was used in the last '62 NASCAR race at Atlanta which was held Oct. 28th. The engineers who designed and developed the Mk II Mystery engine claim they didn't get the word about changing the Mk II from 409 cubic inches to 427 until October so it doesn't seem possible there was enough time for the 427 crank to be developed and used in the Atlanta race. Rex White, in his recent book GOLD THUNDER, which is about his NASCAR career, makes no mention of the use of the "Z11" heads or 427 crank so it may not be true.

I don't believe Smokey Yunick would have been helpful with any 409 engine info. He absolutely hated the 409 engine.

[oil4kids]

I don't believe Smokey Yunick would have been helpful with any 409 engine info. He absolutely hated the 409 engine.


If the "Z11" heads/intakes were intended to be race only parts I believe they wouldn't have had the heat riser passage to the carb.
this is a very very good point


tisk tisk, Richard,
just because you dont like something, does not mean you don't know everything about it-

I think Smokey knew every dam thing about early chevies and probably fixed more 348s and 409s at his shop then most

Since we all know Smoke had a few mystery motors, then we know he had worked on the 90 degree 409 block

He was also well versed in Pontiac heads

I do hope to speak with Ned one day-

[oil4kids]

this is from the nascar web site

Evolution of a stock car: Part III
February 6, 2002
11:11 PM EST (0411 GMT)
While a "superspeedway boom" occurred from 1959 to the early 1960s, with no less than four major speedways being built in Daytona Beach, Fla.; Hanford, Calif.; Concord, N.C.; and Hampton, Ga.; the automobile manufacturers -- who had signed an agreement that "got them out" of racing in 1957, gradually realized that to sell new cars, it certainly helped to win races.

Despite accruing the knowledge of what it took to win Grand National races, the period was interesting in that both engine and body configurations went through several "generations" and radical changes as race cars, by and large, matched what was pushed in the showrooms by the manufacturers.

One of the most interesting occurrences in 1959 came when the Ford Motor Company abandoned its "top of the line" Galaxy model to use its Thunderbird as the race car of choice. The Galaxy was a fairly bulky car that year, so Holman & Moody, Ford's acknowledged racing arm, built a "fleet" of T-Birds to compete in Grand National racing, the forerunner of the Winston Cup Series.











The T-Bird was lower and sleeker than the Galaxy but it still fell within the dimensional parameters set in the NASCAR rules...even though the car had been created as a "sports car" that was designed to compete with Chevrolet's Corvette.

Although the T-Bird continued to compete, Ford returned to its "premier" Galaxy Starliner model in 1960.

Conventional, full frame cars were still the norm as purpose-built tube frame race cars were still out on the Grand National horizon. Stories of race teams -- as Ray Fox's did in 1960 to win the Daytona 500 -- picking up cars from showrooms only days before races and converting them to race cars were commonplace.

In the General Motors' camp, teams had figured out the coil spring rear suspension setup that was introduced in 1958 and virtually everyone was running the 1959 Chevrolet on the big tracks, where it was particularly effective. This "light bulb" effect certainly led some to believe that the racers must have gotten some suspension geometry help from Detroit, but the manufacturers were still laying pretty low due to the Automobile Manufacturers Association (AMA) agreement that had disassociated them from the sport.

Through this period, of course, innovation often was the answer to necessity, and with many NASCAR races still conducted on dirt tracks and with pavement tracks sometimes coming apart, screens, grillwork and other protective devices were often de rigeur.

The early days found race teams not necessarily locked-into a particular manufacturer's model or even make. They were able to do some amazing things with cars that looked particularly unwieldy to the naked eye: Witness the monstrous Oldsmobile with which Lee Petty won the inaugural Daytona 500, which was a somewhat tank-like ride. Petty jumped back and forth between Chrysler and Oldsmobile in that time, depending on which car was more suited to the task at hand.

As the "superspeedway boom" era continued, manufacturers began to pay more attention to aerodynamics. The 1963 Ford Fastback Galaxy was used in the manufacturer's literature and was advertised as a race car. The 1960-61 Starliner had what was actually an effectively aerodynamic roofline. In fact, with the 1962 car a pretty boxy proposition, Fred Lorenzen ran a 1962 Galaxy with a 1961 Ford roof in a one-shot deal for the Atlanta 500 -- and won the race in the car's only appearance.

General Motors had a grip on the Grand National championship in the early 1960s, with Rex White and Ned Jarrett winning titles in 1960-1961 in Chevrolets and Joe Weatherly copping the titles in 1962-1963 -- primarily in Pontiacs. In the 1961-1962 season Pontiac won more races than any manufacturer in the history of the Grand National Division in consecutive years: 52.

Mercury added a twist to the manufacturers' battle when it entered racing in a bigger way in 1963 with its Marauder model. Bill Stroppe, the West Coast's answer to Holman & Moody, handled the Mercury competition program with a similar assembly line approach. Unknown newcomer Billy Wade swept four straight races in 1964 driving a Mercury.

Mercury prompted the switch of legendary NASCAR car owner Bud Moore to the Ford Motor Co. camp when Moore -- in the absence of significant support from General Motors -- switched from Pontiac to Mercury. Weatherly took the 1963 championship but had to pick-up rides for most of the year. Ford scored another coup when it grabbed Fireball Roberts, who won his first race for Ford in 1963 at Bristol (Tenn.) Motor Speedway. The swapping of personnel is one part of stock car evolution that has been around since the beginning.

Shock development, which today is acknowledged as critical to race car performance, also experienced more emphasis in the early 1960s. The popular "Air Lift" shocks were being phased out and Monroe and Gabriel became heavily involved in shock development for racing applications.

Tire development also continued. Firestone was the dominant tire company, but Goodyear was involved to a limited degree. Increasing speeds made these developments important.

The end of this period also brought an end to one unique item. Through the early 1960s, Lorenzen still used a trap door in the driver's compartment to check tire wear. By 1965, however, nobody used the device that was once a favorite of dirt track competitors.

Another significant advance during this period occurred as roll cage structures began to become a more integral part of the car and as such, were used to stiffen the chassis and improve a car's handling as well as serving as vital protection.

A variety of triangulated bars, from front to back, across the mid-section of the car and also in the doors were as much to stiffen and strengthen the cars as they were to serve as protection. There was a tremendous amount of flex inherent in the "x-frame" cars used in the 1958-60 period. Smokey Yunick was one of the first car builders to use the roll cage as an integral part of the car's chassis.

Ford had unleashed the flow of relatively open factory support when it repudiated the AMA agreement in 1962. While General Motors remained mostly silent, within a few weeks Chrysler announced it would develop "high performance" parts for stock car racing.

Another big issue of this period was in the engine compartment.

Noted mechanic Fox was the mastermind behind Chevrolet's so-called "mystery engine," a 427-cubic inch "high lift" high performance piece that would replace the 409-cubic inch engine that was often referred to as a "boat anchor" because of its weight. Yunick, the other half of the legendary mechanical pair that lived in Daytona Beach, was also involved in the development of that engine.

While much of the mystique of this engine was as much hype as it was fact, at the time Ford claimed it spent $1 million chasing the development curve on Chevy's powerplant. Junior Johnson, driving Fox's 1963 Chevrolet, sat on a lot of front rows with the combination, but as had often been the case with other potent mixes, in most cases the car was either a top-5 finisher or it broke.

Among the team's accomplishments in 1963 was sweeping the front row for the Firecracker 400 at Daytona International Speedway, with Johnson and G.C. Spencer doing the honors.

The "engine wars" reached a peak when in 1964 Richard Petty brought a Plymouth hemispherical combustion chamber engine, or "hemi," and cleaned house at Daytona, including winning the first of seven Daytona 500s. The Plymouth and Dodge body styles had been streamlined somewhat first. The hemis: Plymouth's "Super-Commando" and Dodge's "Hemi-Charger" now had an appropriate platform in which to sit.

The engine had first been produced in the early 1950s, but had been shelved with the AMA ban in 1956. Chrysler engineers also came up with a double rocker arm system used in conjunction with the hemi heads. This combination, which created a free-breathing combustion chamber, produced a good bit of top end horsepower, particularly on high-speed facilities.

Ford came back with its "tunnel port" 427-cubic inch engine. And Ford had a very well handling race car. Following the Daytona 500, the fourth point race of the season, Ford won 11 out of the next 15 races -- 13 of which were on short tracks. Plymouth and Dodge won two races apiece in that stretch.

As was the case in many other aspects of racing, NASCAR kept a close eye on these developments and took action, as it became necessary. The repercussions from that highlighted the next period in the evolution of a stock car.

[MK IISS]

Mark: I believe Rex White, who is still alive of course, would be the best one to talk to. He was not only a race car driver...he worked on and actually built some of his cars along with Louis Clements. I could be mistaken but I think Ned Jarrett was more of a driver (one of the best...ever) than a mechanic. He may not know if the '62 409s he drove had the "Z11" parts.

I didn't say Smokey didn't know anything about the 409 engine....didn't even imply it. What I said was: "I don't believe Smokey Yunick would have been helpful...." I was talkin' about Rex White's and Ned Jarrett's '62 409 NASCAR engines and the latest parts they were using. I also said Smokey hated the 409....which he did. He was quite vocal about it. As far as I know all he did was "bad-mouth" the 409 engine. I still believe he would not have been the best person to talk to about what crankshaft Rex White used in his 409 for the last race of the '62 season or any other of the latest parts they were using. How would Smokey know? He didn't build the 1962 Chevrolet NASCAR engines for the "factory" cars. He had a contract with Pontiac. Race teams back then were very secretive...just as they are today.

[Dan Hunt]

SPEED had a show about Junior Johnson where he said a race he one in 1960 with his 1959 chevy was powered by a 409 truck engine(HIS WORDS).Is that possible or is his memory bad.

[MK IISS]

Junior Johnson will be 75 years old in June.

[Ronnie Russell]

Dan, I saw that show. It made me cringe when Junior said that. But what are you gonna do? Its Junior Johnson. Sure would be interesting to talk to him about the W-head engines. No doubt, he was not happy with the w-head, but it did have some success.

[MK IISS]

A '59 Impala 348/305 sat on the pole for the first Daytona 500 at the new speedway.

Junior Johnson won the 1960 Daytona 500 with his Ray Fox '59 Biscayne 348/320.

Rex White won the 1960 NASCAR Championship with his BelAir Sport Coupes with the 348/320.

Ned Jarrett won the 1961 NASCAR Championship with his 1961 BelAir Sport Coupes with the 409/360.

[real61ss]

"SPEED had a show about Junior Johnson where he said a race he one in 1960 with his 1959 chevy was powered by a 409 truck engine(HIS WORDS).Is that possible or is his memory bad."
__________________


I don't think the younger guys understand that years ago, truck parts were thought of as being heavy duty parts. Back then, to say to the 348 or the 409 was a truck engine meant it was a heavy duty engine. Which actually meant it was better which is totaly different from what people think this mean's today. As for Jr.'s statement about winning the 1960 race in a 409, his memory ain't bad, it was probably more cubic inches than that!!!!! It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to fool a P&G gauge and that's what they used had back then. That '66 banana boat Ford wasn't his first attempt at bending the rules.:brow

[SS425HP]

Didn't Junior once have a car with about 30 feet of huge fuel line wound through the frame? Seems like it held another 5 gallons or something like that. That was the good old days of NASCAR ingenuity. Today they call it cheating. Back then, it was just getting a leg up on the competition!!!!!!!!!!!

[MK IISS]

"It ain't cheatin' unless ya get caught."

[oil4kids]

Now where did i hear a story during the early days of racing about a Ford team qualifying with there 75 pound radio which was convently switched after tech inspection.\


Richard, thanks for the 348/409 History Nascar wins-

It would be nice to have a web page dedicated to national wins with the W Motor, I know Dick Harrell had a long list of wins with this motor

attached Smokeys #13 1966 Chevelle, supossed to have a "special Big Block"

[oil4kids]

and of Course Junior Johnsons 1963 chev

[No409]

seeing all this nascar stuff, make me want to throw this question out.

i got my 409 from n.c. and the guy was a winston cup engine builder. My engine has a plate under the carb, like a heat spacer, that he told my was a old nascar piece. it has a p/n 3969835 stamped in it, a big W stamped in it, and the gm firing order. anyone know if its a legit piece for a W race motor? ill try to get pics of it next time im at my dads.

Thanks

[UK Racer]

If the "Z11" heads/intakes were intended to be race only parts I believe they wouldn't have had the heat riser passage to the carb.
this is a very very good point

-


To pick up on this point, I have the documents that show that Chevy got international (FIA) homologation racing paperwork for a 1964 Impala fitted with a Z-11 style 427 motor...
I've sent scans to one or two people on this site to see if anybody knows more about it.
Anyway, because that paperwork is on file I've started to build a '64 Impala 427 historic race car to run at the Goodwood Revival meeting (and others) for historic cars over here in Europe.
I'll post moer info once things get beyond the cutting out rust stage of preparing the shell!

Adam :)

[MK IISS]

Adam: I'm confused. I thought your documents of FIA homologation approval were for a 1964 Impala with a Mk II 427 engine not the Mk I Z11 427 engine. ??

[UK Racer]

I'm certainly no expert, and I'm working from a set of scanned documents, but when I looked at the scans and the pictures of Z-11 and Mystery 427 motors it looked more like the Z-11 to me, but with a single piece intake.
I think it's possible that they put the documents together with pictures of whatever parts they had around with the intention of a final specification that never got built?
:dunno

Long story short, the plan is to build a '64 with Aubrey building me a 409 stroked to 427 with a conventional 2x4 intake (once I get around to putting down the cash!).

Regards
Adam

[MK IISS]

Adam: Best of luck with your project. I'm sure everyone would like to see photos.

[oil4kids]

Richard

the only guys who SHOULD know the whole story on the 409 Z11 WERE the guys at the I-206 Chevrolet engineering department

W.J.POLKINGHORNE*
D.H.MCPHERSON
W.D.ROUTE
R.P.BENZINGER
E.H.MERTZ
B.H.HOWELL*
C.M.PETERSON
N.E. STACEL

AND PROBABLY V.PIGGINS

* wrote the SAE paper comparing the BBC and 409

[MK IISS]

Mark:

Good point. Zora Arkus-Duntov was also involved.

[oil4kids]

There is a article in this months Super Chevy July 06 called the Mark of chevy power by Paul Zazarine

Paul claims there is no blood line with the 409 and Mystery Motor but Paul, Tisk Tisk, the first Mysterys were just 90 degree 409 motors with the bigger 3.65 crank and the new porcupine heads

For example if you cut your brothers hair at 90 degrees instead of 74 degrees, he would still be your brother!

dont forget the 409 and the newer mystery bbc 396/ 427 have the same bore centers with almost identical cranks centers except for main bearing size and counter weights( and thrust area)

He claims the MArk III was like the MArk II but i believe the III was a radically different Packard Engine design that went nowhere

Paul should have included some early Smokey photos of His Mystery Motors which clearly show the old 409 under the new porcupine heads

http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2300



Richard,,, any thoughts?

[MK IISS]

"Richard,,,any thoughts?"

Yeah....I'd be happy if I could cut my hair at any degree. I don't agree with the statement: "The first Mysterys were 90 degree 409 motors with the bigger 3.65 crank...."

Actually the first Mystery Engines a/k/a the Mk II had a 3.50 stroke crank. The Mk II didn't get the 3.65 crank until late Oct. 1962....long after the first engines were already running on the dyno.

I keep hearing that the "Mystery Motor" block was just a 409 block with 90 degree decks but the engineers who designed, built and tested the Mk II said the block was an all new casting. They claim the only thing the same was the pan rails and main bearing support bulkheads. So....Mark,... I have a question...If the Mk II block was the same casting as the 409 block (except for the deck angle) why don't the water pumps interchange?

The fact that two engines, the 409 and Mk II, have the same bore centers does not indicate the block castings are the same. The Mk IV (396/427/454/etc.) has the same bore centers and crankshaft-center to camshaft-center distance as the W engine but it's an entirely different block casting.

[MK IISS]

http://www.yearone.com/leader_ads/Zazarine.html

[oil4kids]

I know about Paul, he was the editor of a pretty good mag called Muscle car review and is a Pontiac fan.


The original design 348 had a short span waterpump which pulled water from the upper cylinder area and then was re-engineered so the pump legs were widened to let the water circulate from the lower or outboard cylinder area.( i think i have an engineering photo of that)
If you look at Mystery engine the 409 waterpump would have to bolt right up against the freeze out plug to accomadate the higher 90 degree cylinder block. I think this was rehashed in a 1963 Hot Rod magazine called the 427 Mystery engine.

Yo may not like this, but i think the Mystery engine was remodified from the original truck only sandcastings from early 1957 prototype 348 with the inboard waterpump location. This was IMPORTANT to allow the waterpump to sit higher to allow a bigger crankshaft damper to be used

The original Mystery engine porcupine heads could not bolt on to the later 396/427big block chevy because the heads were not long enough. The bbc heads were rounded or machined off at the ends to fit the smaller 409 block.

[MK IISS]

Mark:

A few years ago I subscribed to a new musclecar magazine which was published in Lakeland Fl. I got screwed because it folded in a few months. I bet this Paul guy was involved with it.

About 6 or 7 years ago I stopped at Floyd Garrett's Muscle Car Museum. I always stopped there every year on my way back to Fl from visiting my parents up North. Anyway Floyd had a whole row of historical significant Chevy engines on display from the original '55 265 to a Mk IV. There was a Mk I/Z11 427 and a Mk II Mystery Engine sitting side by side. As I remember it there were a few noticable casting differences in the two engines but since it is from memory I can't prove it. I think just about any of us would have to see both engines side by side to be able to spot any exterior block casting differences, if any....that is other than the deck angle. However, I believe the Mk II's water inlet ports which line up with it's water pump are not in the same location on the front of the block as on the Mk I 427 engine. So it's not just a difference in the pumps....it's also a difference in the blocks. I believe this alone indicates a different block casting.

Last time I was at Garrett's museum the Mk II engine was gone. I think he sold off a lot of his stuff. Now many of the cars on display belong to other owners and are for sale. If you go to Floyd's web site: http://www.musclecarmuseum.com/ and take the virtual tour...look carefully... you can see the engine display lined up against one of the walls.

[oil4kids]

Nice museum, I had talked with Floyd at the 409 convention- He was not happy he sold off Bill Jenkins 63 Z11

Fran Prev was of help here but you know the story anyway. Tonawanda did the castings and thats where Fran worked. If he couldnt dig up history on the HD 427.

If you call Chevrolet headquarters asking for engineering history you pretty much get the i dont know answer- heck they hardly know who Louis Chevrolet is.

[MK IISS]

Mark:

I would gladly leave this forum if Fran would consider coming back. I believe he has more useful knowledge to offer than I do. However we can't co-exist. Mark, why don't you ask him. Let me know.

[SS425HP]

Richard, forget it. You better stay, or I'm coming down there. Your knowledge is every bit as welcome as Fran's was. You hear me??????????

[real61ss]

"Richard, forget it. You better stay, or I'm coming down there"


Fred,
I'll help you if necessary!!!!!:hug

[MK IISS]

Fred:

Thanks for the kind words but I believe what I said is true. I know some historical stuff but very few members care about it. Fran knows a lot about the assembly plants and the foundry, etc. etc., ...actual Chevrolet production... because he worked for Chevrolet. All important stuff that no other member of this forum knows, or at least as much. I know nothing about any of that stuff. Think about it.

I wish you would answer boug58's questions about the back seat of his 1958 Impala. You had a '58 Impala and I've heard you spent more time in the back seat than in the front.

[Bam59]

DON'T worry i'm only 65 miles away from Richard he ain't going nowere:takethat

[oil4kids]

Are you kidding me Richard-?

You and Fran had some great exhanges and that is what makes a great democracy- something our country used to have.

[oil4kids]

Rich

original 1957 early cast w block

notice where the waterpump would sit

the same position as the Mystery 409

they were able to reuse the original W design because the middle exhause valves were not next to each other raising the water temp- where most 409 block crack


Im sorry the original engineering 348 guys

Don H Mcpherson
John Rausch
Howard Kehrl

McPherson is always mentioned with the 348-409 and 396-427 so he must be one of the main engineers
I dont know if hes still around he would probably be around 90 or 100 years old in 2006

McPherson was also a lucky guy,he tested at least 3 -Z16 Chevelles before delivery- Floyg G has or had one of them, its red build Number 1 or 2

[SS425HP]

Richard, the historical stuff is VERY interesting. I'm sure we all look to your posts on NASCAR stuff. I saw very little about NASCAR up here in those early years. It's neat hearing about that stuff with you and Tommy posting. A lot of that I never knew or heard of.

As for the back seat in a 58 convertible, which is what I had, they were small. The top mechanism took a lot of room. Not very conducive for what you are implying!!!
The front seat was a lot wider!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember, they were bench seats, not buckets.

[MK IISS]

Mark:

Don McPherson had been involved with the design of the Chevy small-block and was assistant staff engineer at the time of the Mk IV engine project. He convinced the GM executive committee of the need to replace the 409 engine with a new design.

"I had the job of selling the corporation on the fact that Mr. Cole's engine, the W-engine from engineering staff, was no good and had to be replaced by the Mark engine. I had to go before the engineering staff and executive committee down-town, including the president and chairman of GM, at the GM building and sell this thing. We pretty much stated the facts as to the breathing problems on the W and with surface-to-volume in the combustion chamber. The thing made engineering sense and everyone bought it. It took about half an hour."

Don McPherson

Pretty harsh words about the W-engine but I believe when he said "no good" he was referring to it's inability to dominate in NASCAR racing and win the the Daytona 500 which was the primary goal.

As for me, I'm going to continue to believe the Mk II was a new casting even though it has carry-overs from the W-engine. Dick Keinath and others said it was a new casting....who am I to say it wasn't. Plus I had the opportunity to see the two engines side by side for a comparison. I have no problem with people believing otherwise.

[oil4kids]

It could be that Don was no fan of the W motor since he was also working on newer bigger displacement Y and X versions of the small block.

Ed Cole was the wind behind most of the sails in the engineering department.

If you remember back a few messages that I had suggested that Pauls article was wrong about the blood line.

as dream team lawyer Johnnie Cochran would say,

"If the crank fits, you must acquit"

[MK IISS]

Mark:

"If the crank fits, you must aquit."
I like that one....however unlike the OJ jury I ain't gonna... and I said why.

You know... many of the Chevy engineers were down on the W engine...not just Don McPherson. I believe this is why they labeled it a "Truck Engine" even though, as we all know, the 348 was designed to be a dual purpose car/truck engine from the get go. In transcripts of interviews with the engineers who designed the Mk II, I noticed that these guys stressed the point that Mr. Duntov was not allowed to have anything to do with the new engine...that is the Mk II. I could be wrong but I got the feeling there was some "bad blood" between Duntov's engineering group and the others. He may have been privately getting the blame for the W engine's shortcomings. I believe there was also some jealousy and maybe even some bigotry involved.

[MK IISS]

"The Mk III never got off the drawing board. The reason it was assigned a number was Chevrolet was going to buy the Packard V-8 tooling when Packard went belly up. Chevrolet was going to buy the transfer equipment for tooling the machine line to build that engine and was going to redesign it, and assigned the designation Mk III, but it didn't last long."

Bill Howell, Chevrolet Engineer

[oil4kids]

To be honest Richard if the MArk III was a Packard V8, V12, and 16 engines were ahead of there time

in fact 3 Packard V12 engines powered the famous Elco PT109 that John F Kennedy made famous
You know Packard was asked by the British goverment to redefine the engine and make it practical for American mass-production. The process required a complete set of new drawings which Packard prepared under the direction of Jesse Vincent. The Rolls Royce drawings from which Packard worked lacked details and specifications and were not in the third angle projection as is the American practice. The Rolls Royce drawings also omitted tolerances which Packard had to develop from an actual engine. It became a matter of taking an actual engine apart and going backwards to develop the needed drawings and specifications. Packard, under the direction of William H. Graves, chief metallurgist for the company, also had to develop the foundry specifications for the Packard-made engine. The war effort was one of Packard's finest hours and included the development of a marine engine used to power PT Boats and the Merlin aircraft engine used in the P-40. Prior to the development of the Packard Merlin engine the P- 40 used the inferior GM developed Allison engine.

In 1944 - Packard's war record was unequalled. More than 50,000 Merlin aircraft engines and more than 4,000 marine engines had been made. The engines are known for their reliability and quality. The feat is unmatched by any other manufacturer.

Actually the Mark III/Packard would have been more like a caddy engine in low cost production car which I guess does not make any sense

You could see why they stuck with the 409 or mystery design

But the bigger question is why did Packard go under?

[Tom Kochtanek]

Mark asks: "But the bigger question is why did Packard go under?"

Although they were (Packard was) able to survive the Depression Era, they must have gotten hit hard after WWII, in compeition with the growing influences of GM, Ford and Chrysler. Maybe fit and finish wasn't prized during that period, at least enough to attract enough buyers to keep them afloat. I think the early 1950s might have been tough environment to compete in. Then there was that move to "merge" with Studebaker....

Best,
TomK

P.S. Richard, I kinda like that historical information, but I understand what you mean when you speak of Fran's contributions. I even miss parts of those contentious discussions, until they got a bit personal...

[MK IISS]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/packard

http://www.enginehistory.org/packard1.htm

http://www.beatylayptboat.com/engines.html

[oil4kids]

Somthing is really wrong here


how could a company make so many great engine combinations and far advanced mind you, not still be around today??????????

http://www.enginehistory.org/packard1.htm

[dq409]

Somthing is really wrong here


how could a company make so many great engine combinations and far advanced mind you, not still be around today??????????

http://www.enginehistory.org/packard1.htm

I think Tom hit it on the head !!

In the 50`s a lot of car companies bit the dust !!
Look at all the car companies that merged tring to stay alive in the 50`s.
Not that these companies made bad cars ,I think if you look at the styling they were stuck with the old bulky look and some of them down right were stinky !!
Although a few were ahead of their time like the Stude Commander most were at best marginal in the styling department.

I don`t think they could compete with the styling of GM and F**D.,,JMO,,dq

[MK IISS]

Ramblers had GREAT seats.

[oil4kids]

the last time i was at the Studebaker museum in South Bend Indiana they had some advanced styling cars that never went into production for reasons unknown- I will say the Avanti was one of boldest designs of the time and i guess thats why so many tried to keep it alive even when Studebaker went bust, even Thomas Edison purchased the 2nd electric car they built

They also have Pres Lincolns Carriage there


http://www.studebakermuseum.org/photogallery/virtualtour.asp




Richard---that engine website is awesome

http://www.enginehistory.org/packard1.htm

it makes this chevy stuff look like a homework project

[real61ss]

"Ramblers had GREAT seats."

That statement brings back memories!!!!!! In 1962, My only car was a '59 Corvette, but my Dad bought a new 1962 Rambler, I used to borrow it to go on dates. It was 6 clyinder, got really good gas milage, there was some other reason that I liked it.....hmmmm .........can't remember what it was now:brow

Oh, yeah, the seats, that's what it was

[MK IISS]

Ya know, Mark, part of Packard's problem may have been their car's engine. As you know the American public fell in love with the V-8. Packard was the last major car company to have a modern overhead valve V-8.....1955 I believe. All the other luxury/more expensive cars had a V-8. Buick in '53, Old-Cadillac in '49, Chrysler/Desoto in '51 and '52, Lincoln..forever. Even Studebaker had a V-8 in 1951. By the time Packard came out with their V-8 it was too late. Sales had fallen off so much... they were loosing $...bigtime.

Based on Packard's history of developing great engines.... some of the best engines in the world, they certainly had the technology and ability to design a V-8 for their cars long before they did. They just didn't do it.

[MK IISS]

When I said "Ramblers had GREAT seats" I wondered who would be the first to comment. Of course it was Tommy.

[oil4kids]

The "70 year Old Packard 229" has all the makings of a modern day Tunnel Ram Intake with overhead cams and hemispherical heads as well-





I wonder where all of there engineers went?


http://www.enginehistory.org/Packard/jpgs/299%20-%20f.jpg

[rwagon57]

When I said "Ramblers had GREAT seats" I wondered who would be the first to comment. Of course it was Tommy.

My 1st high school car was a '63 Rambler Ambassador, and one father sent me away when I showed up in it to take his daughter out. I never did get to go out with her:rofl

[dq409]

Ramblers had GREAT seats.

Richard,,, These other Rambler wannabees beat me to the computer !!!!:takethat

Just remember,,,,, I liked the seats so well in high school that I owned many ramblers over the years and STILL own one today !!:D

I even concieved my first child in one !!!:D :eek: :D


Those poor shocks,,,,,,dq

[MK IISS]

dq...you are worse than Tommy.

The first American Musclecar...well, maybe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambler_Rebel

[dq409]

dq...you are worse than Tommy.

[/url]

Thanks Richard for the kind words !!!:love
There are a few of us nutty guys out there,,

I have a very fond infection (spelled correctly) of the Rambler Americans of all years produced.
Thanks for the link,,,

http://www.amxfiles.com/amc/part2.html#rambler

[oil4kids]

Richard

what has this thread degenerated to

Its seems this group is more interested in the horizontal mombo in a Rambler then the Z11 mombo



Tommy

you need to change yor name to "Too-many409s Tommy"

[real61ss]

Tommy

you need to change yor name to "Too-many409s Tommy"
__________________
Mark


Too many 409's ain't possible!!!!! But it is kinda easy to get a bunch of "good old boys" of the subject!!!! I do even remember what this thread started out to be!!!:rofl :rofl

[dq409]

Richard

what has this thread degenerated to

Its seems this group is more interested in the horizontal mombo in a Rambler then the Z11 mombo



Tommy

you need to change yor name to "Too-many409s Tommy"

Just the common mutation of any thread !!:scratch
From Z11 stuff to Packard to Ramblers,,,,,, call it modern evolution if you will,,,dq:D