Redline?

[4d9r]

This is the cart before the horse but before my motor is done I'm looking for a vintage tach for the Vicky and wonder if I buy a 6K will that be enough. Been told these W motors don't like high revs
so I just need you're confirmation. 348 bored/stroked to 408 using 427 crank. Thanks

[rwagon57]

409 factory tachs had a 7000 rpm redline. Depending the cam, valve springs, and the rotating assembly I would expect at least 5500, which is probably higher than you want to go on a 6000 rpm tach, because it leaves little margin for error.

Check this out for an example of how these engines can wind out

http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/movies/64pont1.MPG

[mpris]

If you are building a high performance 409, you should install a 7000 rpm tach. The high performance 409s came with a 7000 tach with a redline at 6200. You will probably be making the most horsepower somewhere around 6000 rpm, so I don't believe a 6000 rpm tach would be the way to go.

Poocho

[4d9r]

Thanks guys.......

[MRHP]

I shift my stroker regularly 7000-7400. I have also buried my 8000 tach on one occasion by accident. I am not scared to turn my motor but I have all good parts in it. I have changed from 3.36 to 4.11 gears and found I can shift at a lower rpm and keep my acceleration going strong. 6000-6400 now seems like the sweet spot. Time will tell.

[dq409]

I shift my stroker regularly 7000-7400. I have also buried my 8000 tach on one occasion by accident. .

MRHP, Are you running an MSD box?

When I got my box i had the choice of the 6A or 6AL.

The guys at the parts store said the 6A would be fine and that spending extra dollars for the AL was not necessary stating the only difference is the AL had a rev limiter.

Clowns,,,,, for the few dollars more you get the insurance of the rev limiter !!

If something goes haywire and you get unwanted RPMs this is peace of mind in my book,,dq

[MRHP]

I have a msd digital 6 plus. I have start retard, rev limit and I think one more rev limit. Possibly low for staging. Been a while since I had the paperwork out. I know I will be setting the rev limit at 6800 though. The 4.11 gears really woke this big brick up! I now can shift at a lower rpm and keep pulling like a freight train. Hope to get it on the track this year for a run or two.

[BADCAR]

I*LL admit I*M No Expert--but--after tinkering on 348s 409s & 427s yrs Ago!--None of the GM Big Blocks like High RPMs--as I read You Motor Heads Turning 348s & 409s 7000 & 8000 RPMs?--I can Hear the BIG!!--BANG! from HERE! Spun Barrings?--Broken Rods--& a Host?? of other MAJOR Problems!!--My Referances are--Service Manager for the Largest Chevy Dealer in my Area!--16 yrs of Service-- HEY! the Ole 348s & 409s were Great Engines in their DAY! but that was a long time Ago!--& they did a great JOB in Trucks & Busses!--as their Design--there are LOW Touque Engines!--so for what its Worth?-If? You want HIGH RPMs? the small Block Chevy is the Way to GO!--as all the Ole GM Big Blocks power curve Falls like a ROCK around 4800 RPMs--as the Dealership sponcered a stock 327 New Crate Motor--in a 60 Chevy Coupe--w/ only Hillborn--fuel injection--yrs AGO! that Blew Off the Big Blocks every TIME!--I hate to PEE On any Ones PARADE!-but--FACTS are FACTS!--OH don*t get ME Wrong!-- I Love those Ole Big Blocks & allways will!--I received a Vidio tape in my Mail--Dono Who sent It to Me??--a couple of Ole Guys out in CAL--Dragging a 409--Beautiful!!--lots of wheel well Smoke!--Two Ole Guys having FUN!--& I wish I was there! --Ole JIM--

[models916]

16 years at chevy? You must not have been around for the 348-409 engines. Won a lot of races. Springs and cams were not as good back in the old days. Still, the 409-425 has a higher redline than any of the early SBC. RPM is a function of the valvetrain quality. 348-409s can rev like a small block with the same quality of parts and cam. Why would you say low torque, just plain wrong there? bus engine, HUH?

[SS425HP]

The early 348-409s had HEAVY pistons, two piece valves, old technology rods, etc.
Today, you can get i piece stainless steel valves, or titanium ( AKA unbelievablepriceium ) valves, retainers, and pistons that weigh at least 300 grams less than stock. You can use BBC H beam rods, or even SBC rods if you want. I NEVER had a 409 blow up in the old days. Turned them up to 7500 RPM, too. Don't do it today, because I don't think the heads or intake will flow well enough to make it worth while. Now, if the heads and intake are redone, like some I have seen, take them on up. I have a 7000 chip in my MSD, and have hit it several times in first gear. Shift light is at 6500.

The engines today, with today's technology, are a different animal than the old 409. I saw a 409 turn a 9.06 last Saturday. In the 1/4 mile!!!!!!!!!!!!! It can be done. Takes more money than a BBC.

The 409 will turn up very well. The reason they were called a torque motor in the early days was they didn't RPM like a SBC. Not many will. And, ( here we go again )they were not truck motors used in cars. They were car motors that could be used in trucks. Look at the old GMC trucks. They used Pontiac motors into the late 50s at least.

[fatride]

I*LL admit I*M No Expert--but--after tinkering on 348s 409s & 427s yrs Ago!--None of the GM Big Blocks like High RPMs--as I read You Motor Heads Turning 348s & 409s 7000 & 8000 RPMs?--I can Hear the BIG!!--BANG! from HERE! Spun Barrings?--Broken Rods--& a Host?? of other MAJOR Problems!!--My Referances are--Service Manager for the Largest Chevy Dealer in my Area!--16 yrs of Service-- HEY! the Ole 348s & 409s were Great Engines in their DAY! but that was a long time Ago!--& they did a great JOB in Trucks & Busses!--as their Design--there are LOW Touque Engines!--so for what its Worth?-If? You want HIGH RPMs? the small Block Chevy is the Way to GO!--as all the Ole GM Big Blocks power curve Falls like a ROCK around 4800 RPMs--as the Dealership sponcered a stock 327 New Crate Motor--in a 60 Chevy Coupe--w/ only Hillborn--fuel injection--yrs AGO! that Blew Off the Big Blocks every TIME!--I hate to PEE On any Ones PARADE!-but--FACTS are FACTS!--OH don*t get ME Wrong!-- I Love those Ole Big Blocks & allways will!--I received a Vidio tape in my Mail--Dono Who sent It to Me??--a couple of Ole Guys out in CAL--Dragging a 409--Beautiful!!--lots of wheel well Smoke!--Two Ole Guys having FUN!--& I wish I was there! --Ole JIM--

Huh, my 60 4250 lb Chevy 409 will turn 6500 rpm and is a mild build. As far as the 348/409 being great "in therir day" Tell that to the 2006 Z 06 Vette I ran last week. All he saw were six taillights to the end of the quarter! That's a 450 hp high tech engine in that Vette , at what weight? "Don't get me wrong"------ buddy, ,,,,,,,,,,,I hear you loud and clear. :nono1:

[BADCAR]

16 years at chevy? You must not have been around for the 348-409 engines. Won a lot of races. Springs and cams were not as good back in the old days. Still, the 409-425 has a higher redline than any of the early SBC. RPM is a function of the valvetrain quality. 348-409s can rev like a small block with the same quality of parts and cam. Why would you say low torque, just plain wrong there? bus engine, HUH?
HEY! Model916--I was Racing 348s & 409s while You were Still Being Burperd!--You know Wise ***!--on the NET You never Kow?? WHO your Talking too??--as I Stated both the 348s & 409s are Low Torgue ENIGINES!--PERIOD!--Check GMs Info on both those Engines!--{{LOW TORGUE}} & Your a DRAG Car NUT Right??--How many Famous Drag racers call YOU by Name?--such As? Don the SNAKE--& Big Daddy--just to mention a couple--I think? YOU need a DIAPER Change??-- & just So You KNOW--I*LL Bet your an Also Ran Drag Racer! so Listen UP & perhaps?? You may Learn Some-thing?? as even though You are very RUDE!--where You don*t Know Me?--as I*M going Back over 40 yrs! & I*LL Admit I don*t Know it All! & Please Excuse! as I assume I have Forgotten more about those Engines than You will ever Know!--& I Am in a postion to Help YOU! but You are Not able to Help Me in any WAY!--so I*D Listen UP if I were You!--as way back when! I Dragged a lot of NOW very Famous Draggers & Beat most of Them!--& while I*M at IT!--I assume? You are a NASCAR FAN?--as Most Racers Are! Racing is a Hi Tec Sceince today!--& NASCAR usuaally has 40 odd Cars in a RACE!-& the TRUTH IS! theres Only 10-- & their Cut down to the Top {5} & heres a Special NOTE! just for YOU!!--the Remining 30 odd? are ALSO ran CARS! I Hope? You get My MESSAGE??--as I*M really NOT against YOU--but I assume?? You allready Know Every thing about DRAG RACING!--so GOOD LUCK--Ole JIM--

[SS425HP]

OLE JIM, don't want to get into a contest with you, but I was racing 409s in the early 60s, too. I do know a little about them. Had a 63 that ran on the B/MP record. In the 11s. I see them, today, running in the 10s with ease. There is no dispute that the design is old, and the BBC is a better engine. Progress and technology saw to that. But, today, the BBC is old technology, too. Aftermarket parts have made the BBC a much stronger engine, much used today. In it's day, the 409 ruled the tracks. It didn't last long, as the factories jumped into the fray, and GM dropped out. The Pontiacs were there, too.
It really isn't a question of who knows what, and when. Some of us are die hard fans. We run the old 409s, because that was what we started with. Others run them just to see what they can get out of the old engines, and the challenge. It is fun to knock off the newer technology engines. The cars we run are heavy. It is still amazing to me to see a 3700 pound car lift both front wheels off the ground, and run mid 10s with a 40 year old engine. And this is with 40 year old castings. We don't have the newer design heads and blocks like the F**ds and Mo**rs do. Or the Pontiacs, with their aluminum heads and blocks available now. This is actually a 50 year old design engine. I think they do pretty good for that. I don't see many or any 50s engines running the times the 409 does. The Pontiac is the only one that comes close.

JMO. And, I know it only counts for me.

[mpris]

BADCAR, when you say low torque engine, are you meaning low rpm engines? I always thought the reason Chevrolet went to the 348/409 design was because of the the added torque the engines gave. When Chevy went to the bigger cars in 1958 they needed the extra torque to handle the increased weight of the bigger cars. It's hard to believe that a low torque engine would be used in trucks and buses where the torque is what is needed to move the extra weight. Not arguing, just trying to understand what you are trying to say.

Poocho

[Ronnie Russell]

Ole Jim, Sorry ole buddy, I have re-read models post over and over and I cannot find one mis-statement. Not sure why you got so ticked off. You probably do have a lot of experience racing in the old days, but as stated, I think you are not aware of the modern parts available for the 409. I have the oppurtunity to watch drag races every week, and I can tell you hardly one week goes by without a small-block or big-block engine break at out local strip. But for over 10 years our 409 continues to race without broken parts. It would be hard for you to convince me that 409s are weak. We all have our opinions, and you are definitely welcome to express yours. But not in all my years , have I ever heard of an engine being advertised as " low torque".

[BADCAR]

OLE JIM, don't want to get into a contest with you, but I was racing 409s in the early 60s, too. I do know a little about them. Had a 63 that ran on the B/MP record. In the 11s. I see them, today, running in the 10s with ease. There is no dispute that the design is old, and the BBC is a better engine. Progress and technology saw to that. But, today, the BBC is old technology, too. Aftermarket parts have made the BBC a much stronger engine, much used today. In it's day, the 409 ruled the tracks. It didn't last long, as the factories jumped into the fray, and GM dropped out. The Pontiacs were there, too.
It really isn't a question of who knows what, and when. Some of us are die hard fans. We run the old 409s, because that was what we started with. Others run them just to see what they can get out of the old engines, and the challenge. It is fun to knock off the newer technology engines. The cars we run are heavy. It is still amazing to me to see a 3700 pound car lift both front wheels off the ground, and run mid 10s with a 40 year old engine. And this is with 40 year old castings. We don't have the newer design heads and blocks like the F**ds and Mo**rs do. Or the Pontiacs, with their aluminum heads and blocks available now. This is actually a 50 year old design engine. I think they do pretty good for that. I don't see many or any 50s engines running the times the 409 does. The Pontiac is the only one that comes close.

JMO. And, I know it only counts for me.
HI ss425Hp JOE--as I stated in my POST I*M NOT aggainst any of You Guys!--I Dragged back in the late 50s & early 60s-& did Pretty Good for I had to Work with!--& Beat a Few Now Famous--$$$ made ME give it UP!--but --I build a lot of Stuff for other Guys that Did the Complete Tour-- IDono? I liked the Gas Classes BEST!--as like all Sports the average Guy starts!--the BIG Money GUYS get into & Spoil it?--I helped a local chevy Dealer--Bean & Conquest out of Bangor,Maine Run a 57 stock Chevy fuelie w/ a 4 grear--Break the Out West Record--here at the Sanford Drag Strip--WE Dam Near Blew it UP!--brand NEW right out of the BOX--I*M Old now--in my 70s--& can*t Remember the Figure?--but-we did 3.6 Miles Faster! I Remeber THAT! Two RUNS! w/ in 0.02 & of one other!--Ole Man BEAN Cried while He Shook My HAND!--JIM You-- DID IT!--but that was way back when I was Young & Foolish!--that NIGHT We really Celibrated!--& Ole Man BEAN had the Sound of HIS Now Famous CHEVY--Piped to the Entire Drag Strip--Streight Pipes!--& His SON told ME He used to Play it a Lot--& Hed SMILE--I saw that Chevy in a Car Show in TEXAS on TV--yrs Latter--& it Still had My Name on its ROOF!--Stiched right in the Fabric!--my Day in the Spot Light?--I Dragged my Own 59 El-Camino--409 w/ a 4 gear! I Loved that ElKY!--as it looked like it was going 100 MPH just Sitting!--& YOU Chuckel at this TRUTH!--the Fuel Milage SUCKED!--NOW You can LAUGH!--I like YOU! Miss the Old Big Blocks-as they Were IT in their TIME!-I fooled w/ te Bog MOPARS!--but--I Dono?--they just were NOT the SAME?--YOU know WE chat about the Ole Days!-but--WE never Mention all the Mid Night Oil Burned Tinkering on E*M? & Figureing out all those Problems??--GEE! that was the Best Part!--Trying to Get just a Tiny wenie More?--& it was FUN running UP against the Big Buck Guys! Especially when You Did BEAT E*M--WOW! That Great Feeling!--all thay Sweat & Skun Knuckels Finally PAID OFF!--as thers NO DRAGS here any More!--& when I see the New Hi Pro Models each Year!--I often Think? those Engines would have Made Great Starter Motors for US in the Ole Days!--I have a*Photo of My Camino showing 6 inches of AIR under the Front Tires On Blast OFF!--I drive an 88 Buick Century w/ a 2.8 V-6-- Now theres some Real HP for YA!--so as You can SEE! times have Changed!--& like I said I think? We would get along pretty GOOD as Ole Guys!--as once its in your BLOOD! I DONO? of any CURE? Do YOU??-Ole JIM

[SS425HP]

Yeah, and he has a lot of years.:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[RCE1962]

Fatride

Since we are still discussing the "Redline"...you mentioned that your redline was ±6,500. What cam have you got in the 409, as well as, trans (1st gear) and rear gears?

BTW... good vette story. :beerbang Does the owner of the vette know it was a 4200 Lb 409 car that dusted him? Hope to have a few of these moments myself once the 409 gets installed, but not sure I've got the entire engine/drivetrain/suspension thing... done right yet. Still learning!:deal


Ron

[SS425HP]

The cam is a Bullet cam, Jerico with 3.08 first gear, and 4.88 rear gear. Don't have the cam specs at the moment, but it isn't huge. It's a flat tappet with less than .600 lift. About 250 something @ .050. Good torque cam. Leaving at about 4500 RPM. No bog. Still learning how to launch it. Best 60' was 1.558 this past weekend. Still getting lessons on the tree!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl :rofl

[SS425HP]

Jim, where did you do your racing? Didn't get to the northeast when racing the 63. Pretty much stayed around here. Heck, we still have 5 strips within 120 miles, 3 within 35 miles.
Did get to the west coast in 65. That was fun. Ran at Lions and Carlsbad. They ran Super Stock 4 wide at Lions. Have movies from there. Stayed at Hayden Proffitt's shop. There are a lot of stories that can be told about that!!!!!!!!!! He was something else, as several on here can attest to. He could sure tune an engine, and was a good teacher, too.

Sounds like you had fun. That is what it is all about. And the best thing is that no one can take away those memories. And, there is no cure.

I still say, the older I get, the faster I was:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[Brent]

I can only go by what my dad has told me many times over the years but according to him he used to launch his 409 anywhere between 6000 - 6500, shift right at 8000 and run it out the back at close to 8500rpm. He's not one to BS about such things. I've heard the same numbers from my aunt who made many passes in the car within .10 of a second of his times. This was a '62 Impala SS 409hp/409 with a Potvin cam, Jes Tyree (sp?) headers, wide ratio T-10 out of a '63 and 5.38 gears. Stock crank, stock rods, stock pistons, stock heads, etc.

It was running consistent low 12.10's/high 12.0's way back then on little M&H slicks. Best pass was a 12.03 @123mph. I can't remember the class he used to run it in, either 1-C or C-1, at Cordova, Illinois. If you've got any old Drag News from the mid to late 60's take a look for the name Darwin Busch, it was in there numerous times.

[SS425HP]

Now that's turning one up. Can't say I ever heard of one going that high. We did launch the old car at 6000 in 65. And that was on the 7" slicks. But, I think 7000 was pretty much as high as we went. As I remember, we took it to about 6200 up to third, 6800 in third, and don't remember the trap RPM. Speeds were higher then. The speed trap was before and after the finish line. I think it was 66 feet before and after. Today, the speed trap ends at the finish line. Makes a little difference.

[RCE1962]

Fred

If this is the overall engine/drivetrain combination assisting you with the elapsed time and mph on your "signiture" below your post, the numbers are awesome BTW.

Noted (7/21/06)!!!

We've got a mixed crowd where I live. Most have not seen a full size Chevrolet car with a 409, as these engines are very scarce in Canada. However, the typical late 60's and very early 70's muscle cars have had a dominant presence here in various capacities.

It would be nice to introduce "one" of the "early" full size Chevrolets, with a 409, to the rest of the local car enthusiasts, which would ultimately acheive the "Holy Cr*p"!! effect, around here. This is very do-able based on the numbers, you and others have posted.

Ron

[Brent]

Now that's turning one up. Can't say I ever heard of one going that high. We did launch the old car at 6000 in 65. And that was on the 7" slicks. But, I think 7000 was pretty much as high as we went. As I remember, we took it to about 6200 up to third, 6800 in third, and don't remember the trap RPM. Speeds were higher then. The speed trap was before and after the finish line. I think it was 66 feet before and after. Today, the speed trap ends at the finish line. Makes a little difference.
What's even more amazing is that the poor engine took that kind of abuse for several years with the only damage being one cracked piston the last year he raced it. He pulled it apart every winter to check things out and re-ring it but they were still the same stock pieces Chevy put in it at the factory. :cool:

I can't believe that poor BW T-10 didn't puke it's guts out either. I've heard they had a hard enough time keeping them together in relatively light weight cars. :D He did twist off an axle one time though. :doh

He told me a funny story once about running right after Arnie beswick at the World Series one time. Beswick had just made a pass and they'd rosin'd up the starting line really good. My dad was waiting in the burnout box right behind Beswick to make a pass. He had heard that rosin worked wonders so he decided to launch it a little higher than normal. He took it up to 7000 and dumped the clutch and the car...well, he said it was like the tires were glued to the track. It hooked so hard it bogged the engine nearly instantly and damn near sent him into the steering wheel. :rofl

[BADCAR]

HI GUYS its Time to THANK all of YOU! for many Memories! In Reading Your Stories--I could all most? Smell the Burning RUBBER! & Hear then Ole Big Blocks SING!--as Here theres only One Drag Strp--some 100 odd miles Away!--EPPING NH--& I don*t get to GO! as some thing allways comes Up?--& thats why I looked UP the SITE--as over the yrs!--I saved a Couple of Ole Big Blocks--& I assume?? Ones a 348? & the other a 409? as the Dip sticks are on Opposite sides!--& I can*t Remember CRAP!--I*LL have to Go Up to the FARM & check E*M Out?? as I Saved a Big Block MOPAR--426 w/ all the Goodies!--all are Stuck from Sitting--but their all There?--& I have an Older Chrysler HEMI-out of a 54 New Yorker I think?? YEH! I remember!--from FAN to Tail shaft--54 is Correct--as I*LL never Do any thing w/ any of them Getting too OLD!--I saw One 348 on E-BAY Go for $2,000--Froze UP Solid--but it was Complete!--w/ a 4 barrel--the only other ONE I know Off? is in a Brookwood Sta Wagon--that on a local Farm here!-Cut Down right behind the front Doors & made into a Pick Up Truck?--a light Green--Runs as I saw it this Spring!--off the Road--w/ Kids running through a Freshley Plowed Feild--w/ MUD Flying every Where!--& yrs Ago there used to Be a Big School Buss salvage yard Here! & it was FULL of 348s--I*D guess? at about 100?--I Dono? about 409s??--But Its GONE & theres a Housing Project there Now--as Their probably HONDAS Now??--PROGRESS? Well Thanks GUYS for the TRIP through Memory Lane! as I really have Enjoyed Reading all Your POST! --Ole JIM--*

[fatride]

Fatride

Since we are still discussing the "Redline"...you mentioned that your redline was ±6,500. What cam have you got in the 409, as well as, trans (1st gear) and rear gears?

BTW... good vette story. :beerbang Does the owner of the vette know it was a 4200 Lb 409 car that dusted him? Hope to have a few of these moments myself once the 409 gets installed, but not sure I've got the entire engine/drivetrain/suspension thing... done right yet. Still learning!:deal


Ron


Redline is not 6500, get there only by mistake! But it will rev to 6500 with no issues. Normal shift point is 6000 rpm and I'm still looking for the perfect shift point. Next time out I will try 5500/5700 and see what it does to the ET. Cam is Comp solid roller 230/240 @ .050 lift is in the .520 range both sides. Gears are 4.56, 1st gear 3.06. The guy that drove the Vette parked behind me at the strip afer the run but never said a word to me, others there says that he is really full of himself and his store bought racer!

[dq409]

Hey Brent!! I see you are from Portland,,, I`m out in south east.
Where are you?,,,dq

[Brent]

Hey Brent!! I see you are from Portland,,, I`m out in south east.
Where are you?,,,dq
I must not be too far from you. I'm in Milwaukie just a couple blocks off of 82nd.

[dq409]

I must not be too far from you. I'm in Milwaukie just a couple blocks off of 82nd.
Brent, I`m off Woodstock and 63rd !

Email me with your contact info,,,dq

dq409 "at" comcast.net