Bummer of a noise

[dq409]

Got my 62 to the house today and as I was backing it off the trailer I heard this noise that sounded like a loose lifter.

I pulled the valve cover which I was going to do anyway to adjust the valves.

They all seems close and even but went ahead and did the adjusting.



Buttoned it back up and went to take it for a spin around the block.



As I goosed it a bit the noise came back and stayed as I let off and back to idle it was still there for a bit.



Took a slow cruse around the block anyway and gave it a goose again only to hear it again.

Took it easy back to the house, popped the hood and revved it with my head under the hood and heard it again.

Sounds like a loose rocker but none were.

I also checked for broken springs when I had the valve cover off. I know they can sound like that also.



Will do a little more looking into it tomorrow but doubt I`ll be able to race it this weekend.:cuss

Life of a hotrod I guess,,,:beerbang


O,,, One more thing,,

Since Nutz and a few others have talked about noisy roller rockers, some mentioning the Scorpions like I use , I took a good listen to mine today.

I have said before that mine don`t make any noise.
So listening with a open ear and mind I would say they do have a sound to them.
I would not use the term noisy though.
Actually I like the sound, like a well oiled machine type sound.

I think those that think they are noise should approach the sound with a different view.
I don`t know if those that think this have had experience with Hp engines but the sound I hear is just the sound of a solid type lifter even though they are rollers but more refined.

Ok,, One more thing,,

another thing that happened on that short drive the temp went up to 220* in just a couple block drive.
When I pulled into the driveway and shut her off I heard the sound of coolant puking.:bang

You guys have jinxed me,,,,,:takethat

[rwagon57]

"like a loose lifter" as in a ticking sound? Could it be an exhaust leak?

[Tom Kochtanek]

DQ, glad to hear you are "reunited" with your race car :). Hope you sort things out and that nothing is too serious. With your luck, after parking the vehicle in storage for a bit, you'll open the trunk and find yet another set of "lost" 690s :) :) :).

Cheers!
TomK

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq,thats to bad about your luck,I would at least take the 62 to the track with you and try to fix it there and get some different opinions :dunno

[Ronnie Russell]

No humor from me today. When an engine is injured, I feel as sad as if a person was injured. I know that sounds extreme, jmo. I hope rwagon is right, I think we have all chased that noise at some time, and then found a leaky header gasket. Good luck, Jim, keep us posted.

[johnnyrod]

Check rocker arm travel on all to see if they all are doing the same. I found my bad cam that way when I had a weird noise comeing from the engine. We took off the coil wire and pulled plugs cranked her over and there she was. I guess I am being a bit paranoid. John

[Nuts]

DQ,

Sorry, VERY sorry to hear you are having problems with the 409.... Know that all of us are feeling your pain, especially me, you have been an big help to me and I wish you the best. I didn't mean to drag anyone else down my long path of struggles... Keep after it and you will triumph !!! :)

[dq409]

Thanks guys,,
I didn`t feel too bad last night figuring it was just one of those things.
This morning I`m bummed to the max !!:cry

Even to the point of saying nasty words out loud as I drove to get my morning cup O joe,,

I can say with experience it IS NOT a bad cam !!

I will bring in some fresh ears today and have a friend listen to it but i feel that what ever is wrong is not going to be an easy fix sorry to say.

I know what that sound is now that I have had it in my head for the night but I`m not going to say at this time hoping it is something else.

Funning thing is the noise was not there when i last drove the 62 and parked her for the winter:dunno

I will be going to the Oldies But Goodies to meet up with everyone and drowned my sorrows:beerbang

,,DisQualified

[dq409]

Ok ,, so the fresh ears just left.

Sounds like something in the valve train.

Covers coming off and another visual inspection.

Brian seems to think its a broken spring or something of that order.

I`ll keep you posted,, dq`ed

[desapience]

I sure hope for your sake that I'm wrong here..

PISTON SLAPPING:

Does the sound have a set predictable metal to metal sound or is it intermittent? Does is make more noise when cold, and taper off somewhat when warmed up?

Some hipo motors (specifically built for racing) will do this, but only when bone-cold, and virtually disappear when the engine warms up.

But, an engine that was slightly overbored (beyond what the pistons called for (.030, .040 -- worn or slightly overhoned or over-bored to .034, .045, etc), or a cylinder or two is worn or out-of-round -- the piston skirts can "slap" the cylinder walls. The reason the noise tapers off after warm-up, is because the pistons will expand enough to make the slapping less noisey, disappear entirely, or become relatively intermittent.

Drain the oil and look for metal... if it is piston slapping and severe enough, the piston skirts can break-off and the chunks of metal will show up in the pan. If there is no metal, replenish the oil and throw in a can of STP or other similar product, and see if it tames the noise down a bit.

As another poster pointed out, exhaust leaks can fool you... just check out all joints... the exhaust manifolds (at the head), header pipes, etc. Even a cracked header itself can fool you (such a crack will contract and expand relative to temperates too).

And, as yet another poster eluded to, check for a flattened cam-lobe as he described. If so, there'll be metal in the oil as well, but not "chunks".

Is there any chance something was dropped into the oil-filler tube, a tool, a bolt?

Check all your peripherals (alternator, P/S pump, fan)... is there anything clashing with the dampner?

IF an automatic tranny... check the inspection cover -- they can rub-up against the crank flange... take it off, check for signs of rubbing on the inside of the cover and trim or replace an necessary. Run the engine with it off, and see if the sounds disappear.

All this is assuming you are certain there is no valve-gear problem (broken springs, rockers loose, valve lash is correct, etc). Check if the big Scorpion rockers are hitting the drippers or valve cover (if you have stock valve covers).... Is there any noise coming from the distributor, is the cap on properly?

Last but not least... is the starter loose? Are the exhaust pipes and mufflers all clear of the frame-rails and crossmembers?

Just a few ideas.. hope they help, and I damn sure hope it's not PISTON SLAP or flattened cam-lobe(s)!

Denis

[oldskydog]

Another off-the -wall long shot but I had a 71 Corvette that I bought new. At about 60,000 miles it started making a metallic ticking noise and it wasn't the valve train. After much troubleshooting, I was talking to an old mechanic friend who suggested it could be a carbon deposit built up on the piston that was making contact. He suggested pouring Marvel Mystery Oil down the carb while revving the engine until it starts to bog . So amid a great cloud of blue smoke I tried it and it worked. The noise stopped and never returned. I was a little concerned where the carbon chunks went but never had a problem after that.:dunno

[mac1]

Sorry your having problems DQ.:cry Try this. Remove each spark plug wire one at a time and see if the sound goes away. I did this on a 327 that had piston slap and it turned out to be the # 6 cylinder. Piston slap happens on the power stroke so that would isolate it. I ended up changing over to Mobil full syn oil and the sound eventually went away. Could also be a worn fuel pump rod or as posted, an exhaust leak. Keep us posted...

[dq409]

All good info from those of you that replied so I`ll go into it a little deeper.

It is not:

piston slap I know that sound and that is not it.

Exhaust leaks That is what I thought it was loading the car on to the trailer and posted about that I though the gasket finialy gave out.

Flat cam No way jose !!

Stuff in engine (tools etc) Nope,,,

Rollers hitting Valve cover nope, no signs of that, Moon Covers

ETC nope,,,

Now, what it does sound like is a broken spring.
You can rev it and hold it but when you let off it sounds like a floating valve/ loose rocker.

Then when if comes back to idle it will return to normal sound within a few seconds.

I have checked the springs as best as you can without removing them to inspect them and don`t see anything that suggests a broken spring.
I do know that they can be a bear (if broken) to see while they are still installed.

I did the de-carbon tricks but it didn`t help.

This is defiantly a valve train noise.

So,,, the car will stay parked until I have the time and money to investigate it farther. also a place to do it would help.
It`s in the unsecure driveway now.

O,,, one good thing,,,

The overheating,,,, I forgot that I had removed the flex fan and was running only the elec fan which was in the off mode !!:doh :D ,,dq

[skipxt4]

Dq: You said you checked your valve springs, ans everything looked O K, right. How about a broken inner valve spring. It happened to me one time. I only found it by taking the valve cover off, and running the engine. What a mess to clean up, but I was relieved to find the problem. Take Care. Skip:)

[fatride]

Jim, how many passes on the roller lifters? I have heard some guys have them rebuilt after every season!

[dq409]

Jim, how many passes on the roller lifters? I have heard some guys have them rebuilt after every season!

not that many,,,, I don`t think I would even be close to needing to do that.

But,,, a bad roller might be something to look for,, Thanks ray

[dq409]

Jim, how many passes on the roller lifters? I have heard some guys have them rebuilt after every season!


Fatride ,, I think you might be right,,,again,,:doh

I had another talk with my engine builder today and that is one of the of the things he said i should look into.
Roy said that it is a comon problem that after sitting all winter the bearings in the roller lifter are dry of oil and can go bad on the first spring fire-up.

Roy recommends using synthetic oil as it stays where needed for long periods.
He also recommends on the spring start up to start the engine up and hold it at 3000 RPM to get everything oiled as fast and heavy as posible.
No rolling the engine over to prelube.

I might take this a bit farther and pull the dist and preoil the engine with the preoil tool first.

One more thing as an idea is to pull the rollers out of the engine during the winter and store them in a jar of oil,,, lots of work but so is changing them and real expensive if one goes completely out during a high RPM run,,,.

I`m going to check out what a new set cost and what the charge to have them rebuilt.
New ones go in,,, old ones go for rebuild,,,

Roy builds alcohol and nitro engines and has been the head crew chief for many high dollar drag car teams.

I never thought I`d believe in syn oil but this ol dog just might have to change his mind,,,,dq

[mac1]

I can't wait to get synthetic in my 409. IMO, it runs cooler and is quieter.
I'll have to wait awhile for the engine to breakin first.:grumble: I hope that's what your noise was. Mac

[JimKwiatkowski]

I've run roller lifters for 20 years and I have not had any problems after 20 start ups after winter.:dunno If this happened to an Alcohol engine I can understand because of the water you get in your oil.

[MRHP]

Another overlooked spot for noise is the fuel pump. I had one fail. Bent the fuel pump arm, smash the pump housing and break the spring and still pump fuel. Made some noise though. Just a thought. I also wonder if you are experiencing the rocker arm harmonics that happens at certain rpm's. Quite an unnerving noise to say the least. Hope all goes well.

[dq409]

I've run roller lifters for 20 years and I have not had any problems after 20 start ups after winter.:dunno If this happened to an Alcohol engine I can understand because of the water you get in your oil.

Roy was talking about street engines,mild buildups like ours.

If indeed it is the rollers a phone call to Crane is first on the list. ,, dq

[JimKwiatkowski]

dq,a friend at work has an 8 sec T-bird,he has crane rebuild his lifters every 200 passes.He also pre oils the engine before he fires it up.

[Ronnie Russell]

Okay dq, Youve had a fun weekend. BTW you guys , in that picture, are all ugly. Hope the camera is ok. :rofl But anyway, its time to get back to work. We want to know what that damn noise is !!!!! :dunno

[SS425HP]

You are right, Ronnie. The pictures from Clay City showed a lot more handsome men!!!!!! Must be the Continental divide:rofl :rofl :rofl

[dq409]

Were not ugly,,, it was just so hot our makeup was melting,,,,:rofl

It might be a while before I can even take the intake off . I don`t have a secure garage to do it in and sure ain`t gonna do it in the driveway and let the wind blow dirt into the engine or worse,,,

If you guys want to have better looking guys in our pictures you sure could show up at one of our races !!!:takethat

Besides our mothers didn`t think we were ugly,,,,just sick in the head:stooges

[tmracing62]

DQ -

High spring pressures and SOLID roller lifters need to be rebuilt often. 200 passes is about right if you run tall spring pressures. If the noise is sort of general and not easily found on one side or the other, then I'd sure take the time to inspect those lifters. You can have a cam with Rockwell 58Rc and if a lifter loses a needle bearing or bearings and the roller seizes it can roach the cam real dang quick. Don't run it anymore. Check it out. Prove me wrong. Then at least I can feel some good came out of my new lifters and cam. I didn't swap them out this winter and took it on just one first drive this spring and lost a lifter - #3 intake.

Lamar recommends not using synthetic oils at least on his engines. Don't know if that means any others, but if clearances are similar it probably does. He said they see piston skirt scoring.

[Ronnie Russell]

Michael, Would like to get your opinion on this. I tear down for rings and bearings every 2nd year. ( 400 to 450 runs) On the off year, after the last race of the season, I back rockers off completely. My reasoning is that I see no reason to leave valve springs stressed for 3 months. The only experience I have with heavy springs is the race car, but it seems it would be a good practice for everyone. Most guys with solid rollers are capable of setting valves so it does not seem that it would be that big a deal. Any time you turn an engine off, 2 or 3 valves would be at "full open". That is just a guess, not sure how many, but 1 would be enough. Could this full open spring pressure also cause any stress on the lifter over a long period of time? I dont know. Something to think about.

[dq409]

DQ -

High spring pressures and SOLID roller lifters need to be rebuilt often. 200 passes is about right if you run tall spring pressures. If the noise is sort of general and not easily found on one side or the other, then I'd sure take the time to inspect those lifters. You can have a cam with Rockwell 58Rc and if a lifter loses a needle bearing or bearings and the roller seizes it can roach the cam real dang quick. Don't run it anymore. Check it out. Prove me wrong. Then at least I can feel some good came out of my new lifters and cam. I didn't swap them out this winter and took it on just one first drive this spring and lost a lifter - #3 intake.

Lamar recommends not using synthetic oils at least on his engines. Don't know if that means any others, but if clearances are similar it probably does. He said they see piston skirt scoring.

Michael, The noise is coming from the # 6 or #8 cyl. with the best guess #8.
I will not even start the engine again until I know what the problem is and fix it.

I don`t have anywhere near that many passes and not many street passes on this engine.
Do you think a rev kit would help the lifters live longer?

Also the syn oil causing skirt scuff is one reason I have not tried syn oil yet.
Knowing the geometry of the "W" block and how the pistons have a tendency to be pushed to the out side of the bore is a concern to using any oil that that will not protect the bore/pistons from scuffing.
Has anyone out there used syn oil long enough to put some serious miles on their engine to test this theory?


GO BEAVERS !!! National Champs !!!! :cheers ,,dq

[tmracing62]

Ronnie

You're smart. A surprising number of racers leave the car in the trailer or garage after the last race of the season and leave it all winter. It's so easy to change the oil and run it up to temp so that any crud is not settling (sticking) into the parts or corroding the metals. Then relax the rocker arms to get the pressure off the cam and lifters. Even if you don't, at least turn the engine once a week. Drain the fuel bowls and the fuel lines if you can and you're done. Two hours or two Oprahs and half a box of chocolates. A small price to pay compared to possible longer term consequences. I used to put it on the stands and set mouse traps too. Really.

Springs are rated in pounds per square inch as you know. 400 psi open is not unusual - some more, some less. Consider that the lifter footprint on the lobe is far less than one square inch. The pressures are relatively huge and that's why cams can get flat spots if left for a long time. Likewise the contact area on the end of the pushrod is tiny so pressure is high. And the springs themselves can deform (it doesn't take much especially if they are binding). That's why we check spring pressures so ones that go weak can be replaced. A lot of times all these parts can take it, but as you said it is wisdom to loosen the rockers.

I learned a lot by asking questions of the guys that raced the NHRA schedule. Those guys and their crews freshen everything all of the time. I can't afford that and it really isn't THAT necessary, but the point was made with me. I'd start maintenance during Christmas week after the bank account had a few months to recharge. I'm pretty compulsive and check everything I can touch during race season. I sort of resent the idea of getting hurt, or hurting the person in the other lane, because of something that could have been caught with a little attention. Even though it involved a teardown, the engine was freshened every year, need it or not. Yep, it costs. But the one time I did not cost me over $3000 and a rebuild in early season. And as I mentioned I didn't swap my lifters this year and it cost a cam and a lot more work and the car is still parked.

My thoughts anyway.

Michael

[fatride]

DQ -



Lamar recommends not using synthetic oils at least on his engines. Don't know if that means any others, but if clearances are similar it probably does. He said they see piston skirt scoring.

I would say this is Lamars problem and not the synthetic oil. Curt Harvey uses Mobil 1 20W50 in all of his engines. I have used the same since I have been building Ws. When I tear my engines down after some serious miles, what I see is very little wear on all the moving parts.

[dq409]

Great advice from Michael and Ronnie! Thats what I`ll do from now on.
It bit me this year due to how far away the car has been stored.
In the past when shes stored close it is possible to drive her more often and do the maintenance needed.
Out of sight,,, out of mind,,:mad:

Thanks Ray on the follow up,, You may be right about Lamar. He may be a little old school like me and a few others when it comes to oil although I am swaying toward trying the syns.

[models916]

I back off my rockers when I put the car down for the winter. I have used Mobil 1 for 5 or 6 years without problems. Nextel and Bush cars use syn in everything for a reason. I notices Shell Rotella T is available in Syn now. Might switch to it when engine is broken in. Synthetic lubricant is made from petroleum, it's just hi tech molicules.

[models916]

I had #8 exhaust leak at the header flange that I kept trying to adjust out of the valvetrain. Couldn't feel it or pinpoint it but when I removed the header I saw the black soot from the leak. Hope your problem is that simple. If you have a valvetrain problem you can feel it with your hand by running with the valve cover off.

[dq409]

I had #8 exhaust leak at the header flange that I kept trying to adjust out of the valvetrain. Couldn't feel it or pinpoint it but when I removed the header I saw the black soot from the leak. Hope your problem is that simple. If you have a valvetrain problem you can feel it with your hand by running with the valve cover off.

I can almost guarantee that it is valve train related.
I have checked everything else,,, dq

[bluescreamer]

Jim
Before you start taken things apart. Jack car up and check the torque convert bolts.
Could be loose, converter will rock back forth and make aloud noise.
Allen

[dq409]

Thanks Allen,,, Thats on the list of to do things.

[chevymusclecars]

DQ

I had a Pontiac company car one time that developed a noise that sounded like a valve tick and it turned out to be the automatic flywheel was cracked. They replaced the flywheel and my son still drives it to college but no more noise.

Bill

[dq409]

I talked to Crane today about this problem.
Once i get the lifters out they will be sent to them and the engineering dept will take a look at them to decide what went wrong.

They DO NOT rebuild them, but will give a deep discount on a new set if they are not caused by manufacture error. Or by chance will replace them as good will.
It all depends on what they find out,, dq

By the way, this does not sound like a converter or flex plate problem.
It defiantly is coming from the valve train