62 409 Power Steering

[Rusty Everitt]

Hey guys,
Here's a question for all you gurus. I have a 62 409 car and I'm in the process of putting factory power steering on it. I spoke with Ronnie this morning and the both of us are unsure as to the availability of factory power steering on a 62 409. Ronnie seems to think it was not availabe on a 62 409 and I wanna agree with him but am not sure.Have any of you seen or know of this option to be available.
I'm half way through this ordeal and kinda past the point of no return. I know you guys have the answer and would appreciate some you guys sharing your knowledge with me.
Just call me ignorant in Dallas.............Thanks a bunch

[Rusty Everitt]

Forgot to mention, some pics would be awsome!!!

[jim_ss409]

This question came up a few years ago and I if I remember correctly, most of the guys seemed to think that power steering was not available on a 409 car in 62.:scratch

[Rusty Everitt]

Gearhead409,
Thanks for your input. I do have a shop manual and it shows an illustration for a V8 & a 6 cylinder in the P/S section. You can't tell from the illustration if the V8 is a small block or a big block but the brackets in the illustration seem to be small block. This to me still leaves the question unanswered. I've also seen a couple on ebay but little things in some of the pics were incorrect so I assumed someone added the P/S, still no definitive answer? This can't be that big of a mystery can it?

[Rusty Everitt]

JIM SS409,
Thanks for the reply, why do you think this is such an elussive question, no answer then, no answer now???
Rusty

[Rusty Everitt]

I must have had a senior moment, I guess the assembly manual and the shop manual are two different animals...right ???
Rusty

[oldskydog]

Yes the assembly manual is different It shows the parts breakdown for regular production and most options including part numbers. As Gearhead said it is well worth it
I don't have a 62 assembly manual but I do have a 61. I know that PS was mandatory on a 61 SS 348 or 409. I would think it would be available in 62 as well.
Since both 61 and 62 were solid lifter engines only, I believe it would have an idler pulley if it didn't have PS. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[mac1]

Rusty, power steering was available on the 61 and 62 409's. If you didn't get it, you got the idler pulley instead. I've got my 409 out of the car right now and can take some pictures, but I'm using a 605 box. Unless your dead set on keeping it original, you might consider the 605 box. Really cleans up the slop.
3 1/2 turns lock to lock instead of 6 1/2 and no more leaking hoses.

[Ronnie Russell]

gearhead, Cecil, and Mac ,,,,,,, Thanks guys. Another incorrect fact that I had heard has proven to be wrong. . Im sure Rusty will be glad to hear that. Thanks again,,,,,,,,,:)

[jim_ss409]

I tried to do a search but I couldn't find the posts done on this topic a few years back. My memory may be wrong but I seem to remember that nobody had actually seen a documented 62 409 car with power steering.:scratch I can't see any reason why not though. With all the members we have, maybe somebody has a build sheet showing both a 409 engine and power steering.
I just had another thought. It might have been power brakes that were discussed.:scratch Did any 62 409 cars have power brakes?

[real61ss]

So far as the '62 409 being available with power steering..... the answer has to be yes. I have no knowledge of '62's but I feel certain they would be the same as a '61 409 or a '61 high horse 348. The '61 without power steering used the idle pulley, if you had power steering, that took the place of the idler. The power steering pump should have the cast iron pulley. I attached a photo of my '61 409 with the power steering.

[Ronnie Russell]

Tommy, I think at one point you stated that the 61SS package contained p.s. Correct me if Im wrong. Im going by memory and that is bad. But, IF that is true, then we all know that changed for 62SS. The assembly manual for 62 would have had to be written in the summer of 61. GM was trying decide how best to market this new 409-409. What decisions were made for p.s. and power brakes? I dont have a clue. Just pure speculation on my part. I have never seen a 409-409 4sp with p.s. but then there are many things I have not seen. Jim is right . As many members that we have, surely one must have a 409-409 with ps. Another of those questions that may not have a black and white answer. Im sure 348s were available with power brakes, so why not 409? Low vacuum? Shoot , I dont know. Interesting questions though.

[real61ss]

Ronnie,
I can't answer your question with certainty but i know some one who can.:brow I'll get back to you. Oh, yes, power steering was required on a factory built '61SS

[mac1]

Here's two pictures of a documented original 61 409 that was owned by Ron Lynch before he passed away recently. Has both PB and PS. Like mentioned above, the 61 Impala SS had mandatory PS and sintered metallic PB along with some other options. Always blows my mind when I see a 61 SS without either of these two options. :nono1:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/394748/RIEXL-DSCF0008gg.JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/394748/XUYPC-DSCF0010ff.JPG

[real61ss]

"Here's two pictures of a documented original 61 409 that was owned by Ron Lynch before he passed away recently. Has both PB and PS"

Thanks for sharing those pictures. Are you familiar with this car? Wonder was the top side of the motor changed? it wouldn't have come from the factory like that.

[real61ss]

Ronnie,
I checked with my freind and here's the answer; Both options were definitely available on '62 409s. There’s a picture of a new ’62 SS with the 380hp motor, P/S and P/B in Terry Boyce’s SuperSport book. The options are also in the assembly manual as someone else pointed out.

[Rusty Everitt]

I would like to thank all you guys for your input, I am so glad to finally put this question to rest:clap .
Mac, I saw your pics a while back and made a few copies, I hope mine turns out half as nice as yours. As for the 605 box, I have reservations after modifing and putting one on my 34 Ford(what a nightmare). My biggest complaint is not a very good feel for the road, a little too much free play, too much positive castor and that d*mn o-ring top cap, other than that, I could'nt have done it without the 605 and retain my drop axle and side steering. The small size was the plus factor in this case.
OK, I know a bunch of you are saying," why is that idiot putting power steering on a 62 409/409 BT". My theory is, if yur gonna cruise you might as well enjoy it, and for now that means at least a radio and P/S. I guess with winter coming on I need to think about a heater???
Thanks again to all you guys for your input..this is an awsome web site.
Rusty

[tripower]

Rusty, I read your post yesterday and did a little research. I found in the Chevy SS Super Sports 1961-1976 Book by Terry V. Boyce there is a picture on page 22 that shows a 380-HP 409 with both the power steering and power brakes as Tommy said. I would have posted it yesterday but, I had to have my wife show me how to scan it and size it to fit here...:bang :dunno Hope this helps. Dan

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks Tommy, The question is definetly put to rest. Still kinda curious that all of the 409-409 4sp I have seen were all idler pulley cars. But, a deal is a deal. Full speed ahead , Rusty. :cheers

[wrench]

Good info.

Now I need to list my 409 P/S pump and brackets on e*ay! Yay!

[Rusty Everitt]

Thanks to you guys also for your input. Jim, I think Dan's picture he posted answers your question. I guess in 62 the sky was the limit as far as options go if you had the bucks no matter what your engine of choice was.
Thanks to all of you:clap
Rusty

[jim_ss409]

That pretty much proves power steering was available.:deal
I guess we can declare... This myth is busted!

[Bobaloo]

Seems like I have seen a picture of an 09 with the power steering pump behind the generator.

[tripower]

Seems like I have seen a picture of an 09 with the power steering pump behind the generator.

I've seen that on Olds Starfire 394 but don't recall ever seeing it on chevrolet.:dunno Dan

[MK IISS]

"...two pictures of a documented original 61 409..."

An "original" 1961 409 would not have 2X4bbl carbs and/or a decal on the valve cover.

[Ronnie Russell]

I think I have the explaination as to why there are no 62 409-409 4 sp cars with power steering in circulation. I believe that sometime in the mid 1970s , a wealthy investor ,scoured the country buying all of the p.s. cars and storing them in a secret location . Must be a huge warehouse. I will begin my search. :brow :brow

[51T409]

Ronnie I can tell you where the BIG WAREHOUSE is!!!!!! It's at gearhead409's place. I've been there and believe me it's like you've died and went to 62-409 heaven. so like you said don't argue with him because you can't trip him up on 62-409's!!!he has more 348-409 parts and cars than the yvette vand auction.

[Ronnie Russell]

51T409, I believe that!!!!!!! I hope that one day Loren will invite me to see all his stuff. Im gonna wear some big deep pockets, and when he turns his head, I will have a few parts myself. Course, it would be worth the trip to see him drive that blown car down the street. :)

[skipxt4]

Ronnie: It'll be tough to walk with a pair of 690 heads in your pockets! :rofl :rofl Probably the same as having a ball & chain around your ankles. Skip:)

[Ronnie Russell]

You're right Skip. AT my age, bout the only thing I could sneak off with is an old oil filler cap. :rofl

[mac1]

"...two pictures of a documented original 61 409..."

An "original" 1961 409 would not have 2X4bbl carbs and/or a decal on the valve cover.


His car was built in July 61. The dual carb WAS a late production option. He showed me the paperwork at a show to prove it a couple of years ago, as I to was skeptical.
Tommy, the car is located in Huntington Beach, Cal.

[MK IISS]

"The dual carb WAS a late production option."

Mac, this simply is not true. Chevrolet built only 142 1961 Chevrolets with factory installed RPO # 580 409 engines before the 409 option was put on production hold. They were all single carb 360 horsepower versions. The big valve/large port heads and 2X4bbl intakes were a late 1961 over the counter deal (not factory installed) available to a limited few. As Tommy said: "it wouldn't have come from the factory like that."

[chevymusclecars]

I looked up the power steering parts in a 1963 parts book and it shows that it was available on the 409 and high performance 348.

The pulley for a high performance 348-409 61 and 62 is part number 3789867 with an OD of 6 3/32.

The pulley for the 63 (409) does not specify HP is stamped 3834720 and has an OD of 6 1/8.

Hope that helps.

Bill

[Ronnie Russell]

Thanks Bill, I, too, found a catalogue that shows same description and part numbers you posted. I know we all agree that p.s. was definitely available for 409 hp. I guess what I find curious is that GM built thousands and thousands of 409 hp cars, but seems that a huge majority were delivered to dealers without p.s. Seems like a 4,000 lb car with a heavy engine would be more desirable with p.s. yet most were not. Im sure there is a simple reason, I just dont know what it is. Not important, one way or the other. Just more w-head mystery. :)

[real61ss]

Mac,
I didn't mean to sound as if I were doubting your word. Anytime some one says they have or know of a documented '61 SS or a '61 409, it gets my attention simply because these are extremely rare cars and I try to keep up with them and their location if they are real ones. What kind of paper work did he show you? Was it paper work from the day of sale, an original window sticker etc.? As we all know, that intake will not interchange with the heads of an original '61 409 motor. As Richard stated, there was supposely a service package that included everything from the heads up but I don't know of cars being delivered from the factory with the package.

BTY, I visired your web site, you have a beautiful car.

[mac1]

"The dual carb WAS a late production option."

Mac, this simply is not true. Chevrolet built only 142 1961 Chevrolets with factory installed RPO # 580 409 engines before the 409 option was put on production hold. They were all single carb 360 horsepower versions. The big valve/large port heads and 2X4bbl intakes were a late 1961 over the counter deal (not factory installed) available to a limited few. As Tommy said: "it wouldn't have come from the factory like that."

Richard, OK, let me check into this some more. I'll see him at a show on Dec 3rd. He always carries that paperwork with him. I'll re read it. He swore it was that way from the factory, and he has had to convince allot of judges. He scored in the 990's at a recent show. Mac

[MK IISS]

Chevrolet's own engine records (Tonawanda) indicate that only the 409/360 (Suffix Code "Q" and code "QA") was factory installed in 1961 model year cars. There is no record of 1961 Suffix Code "QB" 409s (2X4bbl) installed in 1961 model year cars. There are some historians who dispute the fact any 1961 409s were actually stamped with the Suffix Code "QA" (single 4-bbl). One of the reasons the 1961 409s with the new big valve/large port heads and 2X4bbl carbs were not allowed to run in 1961 NHRA S/S class is because they were not "stock"....that is factory built.

[jim_ss409]

Here's a page from a Dec 61 edition of Motor Trend test driving the new 62 SS 409. It's got the same photo that Tripower posted from Terry Boyces Super Sport book. So it looks like this particular 62 did have power steering and brakes.
I also noticed that the "409" decal is in the middle of the valve cover. But in a Car Life article from Sept. 62 and a Motor Trend article from Jul. 62 I notice that the sticker is at the front of the valve cover. I guess sticker placement varied depending on where the car was built.

[Rusty Everitt]

Bill, thanks for that extra bit of info and for the time to look it up. I guess finding one of those 867 pullies will be the needle in the hay stack thing.
Thanks again,
Rusty

[mac1]

I had it on my computer and forgot about it. It's some sort of build sheet that he had propped up inside the trunk. I think he has some other document
I'm going to try and see him next month. Sorry I had to make the picture this big, but I don't think you could read it if it were any smaller. It says it's an RPO 587 409 Super Turbo-Fire Special VX-2X4 bbl carbs, 409HP
I took this other picture of a certificate from the Chevy Winterfest Nationals “Showcase” date November 94. I took the liberty to transcript the wording and I will post it here, as you can barely read it in the document.
To get into their registry, the car has to be an unrestored original or restored back to original. Anyway here's the pictures I have. Maybe some of you guy's have seen the car? He lives in Huntington Beach, Cal. I have this thread running over at Chevytalk.com to. Not trying to stir the pot here, just wan't get to the bottom of this once and for all.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Chevy Winterfest Nationals “Showcase” was established to honor and display the “finest and fastest” cars ever
designed or produced by Chevrolet. The Showcase recognizes limited production design studies, prototypes, high
performance test vehicles, record holders and race-prepared Chevrolet's and corvettes.

The “Showcase” encompasses selected vehicles produced by Chevrolet which have achieved enduring recognition due
to their significant engineering, classic design or superior performance. The production models selected to be part of
the Showcase, represent superb examples of unrestored originals and state of the art restorations.


1961 Impala Owned by Ron Lynch

Having met the above criteria, this vehicle has become a permanent member of the Chevy/Vetterfest Nationals
“Showcase” Registry.

Chevy/Vetterfest Nationals, November6, 1994

Number SC9411333

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/394748/DSCF0017,,.JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/394748/XUYPC-DSCF0010ff.JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/394748/DQ409.JPG

[MK IISS]

"It's some sort of build sheet..."

That is one great looking 1961 Impala but the "bubbletop build sheet" was not printed by Chevrolet.....it was created by the owner so it really is not a document or proof of anything. This means the car is undocumented unless the owner has some other REAL documentation.

[mac1]

Richard, I see your posting over at Chevytalk to. Yea, two interesting things that were mention over there. There an L in the vin number and the car was built in St. Louis????:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I'm having serious doubts about the legitimacy of this car. We better just put this matter on hold until I see him again.....