Camshaft recommendations

[bjburnout]

Hello everyone

I know we have been thru this many times but I am looking for recommendations and any updates as to the best cam to use for a 63 409-425..........:scratch

The engine will be stock compression with 690 heads and
used for street crusin'..........;)

Heads are almost complete but need to get a cam for final assembly.

thanx for your help.........:cheers
bj

[jim_ss409]

The engine I just put together is a 63, 425hp with stock pistons and I went with a fairly small Crane hydraulic flat tappet. It's got a fair bit of lift... I don't think you could go much more without going to longer valves. I haven't had a chance to drive it very much yet but it idles quite smoothly with lots of vacuum and starts making pretty good power at a low rpm. The power seems to peak at about 5,800 to 6,000rpm.
I was willing to give up some top end power in order to get better street manners so all things considered I'm pretty happy with this cam.
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1963&Engine_Size=348-427%20C.I.&partNumber=150301&partType=camshaf


Crane makes one that's slightly bigger but I noticed that the lobe centers are 114 deg. apart. It would idle just as smoothly as the cam I got but I thought it might be a little lazy through the lower part of the rpm range.
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1963&Engine_Size=348-427%20C.I.&partNumber=150311&partType=camshaft

You may want to go with a bigger cam but I just thought I'd let you know how this one's working for me on a similar engine.

[bjburnout]

Thanx Jim
This is a good starting point.
I like the second one but I'm going to run solid lifters.
I'll check out the list.
What would you recommend if I was to build a 482 stroker.

:cheers
bj

[CDNpontiac409guy]

BJ... I like this, using a set of Crane 1.7 roller rockers:

M-235578D

Advertised duration: 270 / 280
Duration @ .050": 235 / 242
Net lift at the valve: .542" / .556"
On a 110 lobe centre sep

[bjburnout]

Hey CPG
Is that a Crane Cam?

bj

[CDNpontiac409guy]

My own combination, custom made by Comp.
I used to deal with Crane exclusively, until I started my Stocker project a few years ago. When I approached them about making a cusrom Stocker profile, they had no interest. I went to Comp, and they jumped on it. Crane is still very good stuff though.

[pauls63409]

I have a 63 409 QA motor with dual quads. Bought a cam from show cars over ten years ago. It was a Z-11 grind solid lifter cam, 569 duration and 310 lift. At around 3k rpm it really pulls, puts you back in the seat really nice. It's a little lumpy, but I think it sounds great and runs great.

[RCE1962]

Aubrey

What's the power curve/range of that cam?

Ron

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Ron,
In BJ's combination, with the HP exhaust manifolds... would expect the main power from around 2600/2800 to 5800/6000.
Even with composition head gaskets on the stock 11:1 engine, you'll be at approx 10.6:1. Much less than this cam, and you'll build too much low end cylinder pressure, and have a nasty detonation problem.

[MRHP]

Hey! I had that . Detonation that is. I'm hoping my "new" used hooker super comp headers and full 3 inch exhaust will help my motor breathe better. Gotta be better than the Dougs headers that are on it now. Aubrey helped me with my cam selection whan I was having detonation due to some inaccurate parts. The cam Aubrey recommended was spot on for my combo. He won't steer you wrong!

[jim_ss409]

With the cam that Aubrey posted the intake valve would be closing (to .050) at about 43.5deg. after botom dead center. That tends to reduce the compression at lower rpms and should reduce the likelyhood of detonation. If you run a smaller cam, or one with tighter lobe centers, or advance it more than the normal 4deg. range the intake will close sooner and trap more compression. That's not a bad thing on a low compression engine but with 10.6 to 1 it's probably best to aim for an intake closing point (at .050) that's 38deg ABDC or more. A cam like Aubrey posted should be just fine. The one I'm using (39deg. ABDC) is close to the edge so I'll have to be sure that my timing, fuel-air mixture and water temperature are all good.
Lobe separation angles of 110 or 112deg are most comonly used for aftermarket performance cams. Wider angles like 114 or more will give a smoother idle but give up some low and midrange torque. Tighter angles give you a choppier idle. Also the tighter the angle, the sooner the intake valve will close, so it may require more duration to get the intake closing point where you want it.
Stroker engine of course need a larger cam. The rule of thumb that I've seen is... For every additional 50 cubic inches you'll need about 8 more degrees of cam duration. So a 481 would require about 12deg. more than a 409. I'm running an Isky hydraulic roller with 238-248 @.050 and a 110deg. lobe separation angle. It idles pretty good and the power peaks at about 5,800rpm. That's a relatively small cam but you can get away with a little less duration on a roller cam because they have more lift. My Impala convertible ran mid twelves with a 476ci. stroker with about 9.75 to 1 compression with this cam. Hydrauilc roller cams generally run into valve float if you try to go much past 6,000rpm. Some of the modern solid flat tappet cams also have a lot of lift, so as long as you don't mind setting the valves once in a while you can make big power without spending a small fortune for a roller cam setup. And of course nothing makes more power than a solid roller cam but you have to be sure and get one that's designed for street use and you have to keep a close eye on your valve adjustment.

[tripowerguy]

I have a Crane solid lifter 409 repacement cam in my 348. It is some what lumpy and is a good drivein cam:p . It is lazy below 3000rpm and it is like you hit a button above 3000rpm, just pushes you back in the seat. The lobe centers are 114 degrees which I think accounts for that. I also think it would perform better with a stick trans instead of the Doctor's slush box.:) Roy

[bjburnout]

Hey tripower

Do you have the Crane part no and specs for this cam?

I contacted Jegs for a Crane 409-425 cam and it is discontinued a long with
some other 409 stuff.

Tried to contact Comp about CPG's cam but nothing yet.

A friend of mine mentioned ISKY grind Z45 but did not have other specs.

Does anyone have specs on ISKY Z45?

thanx
:cheers
bj

[CDNpontiac409guy]

BJ, you won't get a reply from Comp about CPG's cam... it's his own "creation".
You'd have to contact CPG about it;)

[jim_ss409]

Isky doesn't list the Z-45 specs for a 409 in their catalog but they do make it. The specs should be the same as a a Z-45 for a BBC.... 244-244 @.050 with a 108deg lobe separation angle and .530 lift. http://www.iskycams.com/onlinecatalog.html It doesn't have a lot of lift but it has plenty of duration, and the 108 LSA would give it a fairly rough idle. It's a popular cam, I think Curt Harvey used it quite a bit.

Most of Cranes solid lifter cams don't have much lift. This one looks okay... http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1963&Engine_Size=348-427%20C.I.&partNumber=150801&partType=camshaft
It's not that big but it would probably make good power. It would be cutting it close to use this with stock high compression pistons though.

[bjburnout]

Hey Jim
That is the cam that is discontinued.........:doh
Doug at Comp Auto in Richmond Hill has cams ground.....I'm working on that right now.
Thanx for the Z45 specs........probably go that or CPG's .........:deal

:cheers
bj

[tripowerguy]

You asked what the cam specs were for the cam in my car. It is part no. 150421 and grind no. 3796077. intake and exhaust both have 434 lift. intake opens 24 degrees BTDC closes 76degrees ABDC exhaust opens 77degrees BBDC and closes 23degrees ATDC 280 degrees duration. This is all measured at .012 tappet lift. power range 3000 rpm to 6200rpm. This cam is called the Replacement for factory markIV 409hp 409. Valve lash is set at .018 intake and .022 exhaust. Recommended seat pressure is 110 lbs closed at 1.688 spring height and 276 lbs open at 1.308 spring height. The good thing about this cam is you can put it in a 250 or 280 HP 348 and not have to flycut the pistons. :deal Roy

[oil4kids]

Just remember what Lamar Walden said about 409 camshafts at the 09 Convention.

Some Repo cams are not to be trusted and are usually off by 2 degrees most cams are machined at a 45 ground angle like a typical motor but the w motor is at 43 degrees

so on the passenger side your compression ratio will be lower because of the unusual machining of the W engine- maybe we can get Phil Reed to let us use Lamars audio talk from his dvd on the subject

[tripowerguy]

Last time I ran a compression check my cylinders pumped 170 to 175 usually 172. Would that even of compression check be that way if one bank of cyl. was out of time? :dunno Roy

[jim_ss409]

I rememberd Lamar commenting on the possible cam problems so when I installed the Crane cam in the last engine I did I indexed the cam on both the #1 (drivers side) and the #2 (passengers side) The opening and closing points were the same on both sides. I've also checked the compression in the other engine that has an Isky cam and found it to be quite consistant from side to side.
If I understand this right the lifter bores are on an 86deg. angle rather than the more usual 90deg. Or if we're talking degrees from center, 43 instead of 45. So if you installed a cam with the intake center line at 106deg. on the left bank, the right bank would lag behind by 4 crankshaft degrees. So one side would be set at 106 and the other at 110.:scratch And if you tried setting the left bank at 108 I think the right bank would just go to 112deg.:dunno I think.:scratch
I don't think it would be a disaster to run a cam like this but it wouldn't be ideal.

[bjburnout]

Well I got thru to Crane and it appears they still make the 409-425 replacement.
I guess Jegs discontinued it but Summit still carries it.

It is very close to CPG's specs and a little different from Tripower's cam.

Here's the link to the cam ..........:deal

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1963&Engine_Size=348-427%20C.I.&partNumber=150801&partType=camshaft

thanx to everyone for their help, any other info is greatly appreciated

:cheers
bj