Help Identify "QB" 409?

[GOSFAST]

OK guys, now it's my turn to GET help. Took in a unit to build with a "TOXXXQB" code. Had one of these a while back to do also with the identical "QB" code according to my old paperwork. It turned out to be from a '62 Impala. I believe it was the original unit. This one is going to be 478" stroker however. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. This one has to stay 100% correct for appearance purposes. Factory damper, timing cover, intake and exhaust manifolds, valve covers, etc. The manifolds, intake/exhausts, aren't here yet. They're being shipped in to us!

[Ronnie Russell]

Gary, Need casting no. from block to i.d. ............... Heads numbers also would be interesting......... I assume the XXs and OOs are vin number that you dont want to show. Thats understandable, need casting no. and date code would be good too.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Ronnie, thanks for the quick response. Appreciate it!

The block is a #3788068, 1962 and the heads are 3852583, 1964. I know the heads are the higher HP ones by the valve/port sizes. I've built a number of these over the years but like I stated I am curious to the "QB". Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. One other item that I've noticed on many of these heads is the "pinned" studs. Was that a "factory" deal?

[skipxt4]

Gary: Yes all 409's had pinned studs from the factory. Skip :)

[Ronnie Russell]

Gary, If it is only the QB that is of issue,,,,,,,,,, QB denotes 409 horsepower in 1962 ............ QB also denotes 1963 and 1964 425 hp. It is nice to have you in " our world ". There are many here who can gladly answer any questions you may have during the build. I know of your reputation, so I know you dont need any mechanical help, but feel free to ask for anything you need.

[CHEV601234]

Hi Ronnie, thanks for the quick response. Appreciate it!

The block is a #3788068, 1962 and the heads are 3852583, 1964. I know the heads are the higher HP ones by the valve/port sizes. I've built a number of these over the years but like I stated I am curious to the "QB". Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. One other item that I've noticed on many of these heads is the "pinned" studs. Was that a "factory" deal?

Goesfast,
You're in the business of rebuilding '09 motors for people "correctly" and you say you've built "a number of therse" but don't evne know about pinned studs or what QB means?!?!?!??!? You'er in the worng business buddy!!

every simpleton on the planet thinks hes an expert because he's held on e in his hands!!!!

CASTING DATE???????????

those "X"s are ion the assembly date, NOT the VIN stamp.:bang :bang :bang :bang :bang :stooges

[CHEV601234]

Gary: Yes all 409's had pinned studs from the factory. Skip :)

No they didn;'t

[Ronnie Russell]

CHEV601234, In the first place , it was me who questioned the vin no. Not GOFAST......... I saw no reason to XXXOOO assembly date, so I thought he was blanking out vin no that were stamped on some blocks. As far as I know from old posts, this guy turns out some nice exotic work. Is he an expert on 409s? I think he would admit that he is not. Can he build engines?? I think he can. At least he gets the benefit of the doubt from me. Your business is your business. Make all the enemies you wish. Good day,,,,,,,,,,

[GOSFAST]

Thanks, guys. The "QB" has no effect whatsoever in my end of this business. It just happened to pique my curiousity. I know the Vettes, Chevelles, and Camaros have similar codes and meanings. Ever since the F.A.S.T. class racing up here in the Northeast came into existence there's been a very high number of "restored" factory original looking street/strip cars being built. We are "tied-in" with these guys and have done a number of units already.

This "new" class of racing is a good deal, helps to keep the "older" style racecars on the scene. Incorporating today's technology "backwards" into these early units is like starting all over for us.

The nicest part of what I do is seeing a 1953 Henry-J with one of our "Nailheads" running the nostalgia drags in Epping, N.H. a few weks ago, or a just finished
"Blown" 392 Hemi in an early Willys, or a "Dual-Quad 409" going down the strip. It's scenes that most of my "today" customers can only watch videos on or read about, but I say to them "you just had to be there".

Again, I appreciate all the feedback. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. When we work on all these "new" units today that are "designed" to use 93 octane and you see a SB 383" making 500 HP or a BB "Bow-Tie 540" also 93 octane come off the dyno at 750 HP it makes realize how much more of a challenge you face to make the "oddball" units, the 409's, the early Hemis, the "Nailheads", the "Rocket V-8's, the Pontiac's (389's), or the "tried & true" Flatheads, achieve (almost) close to those numbers. The units of today you merely "pick the parts" and "put 'em together", not so with these others. I personally enjoy the "challenge"! Thanks again guys!

(Add) Hi Ronnie, I put this here after the fact. To the "gentleman's" post you answered I wouldn't even comment. Let me just expand on the "X's". I don't want anyone to be able "spot" a unit we build by ANY numbers posted up here and we never know where/when these units are raced. I had some issues recently with names and combos that were traced back by "names/numbers". That's the reason for the "X's". In other words, if anyone "stumbles" on specific numbers, at a "meet" for instance, it would be "non-traceable" at least from this forum. I hope this is somewhat clear to all!

(Add) You would be "hard-pressed" to see something like this around anymore, I was involved in this unit just a few months ago! Note the aluminum "Nailhead" heads, in 45+ years of building units, this was the first set I'd seen. I wasn't even certain Buick ever had them.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/th_MVC-017S.jpg (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/MVC-017S.jpg)

[dq409]

Welcome Gofast !!!

Seems you have a bit of class and can hold yer own!!!:clap

Glad to see you are like us and enjoy these old out dated engines !!:brow

Stick around and join us from time to time !!!:cheers ,,,dq



.

[petepedlar]

Hats off to the class at www.348-409........ and I love the nailhead !!

Dave

[skipxt4]

No they didn;'t
So tell me:bow Almighty One. What 409's didn't have pinned studs. I know all QA and QB engines had them. I have even seen them on QC engines.

[real61ss]

Don't mean to get in the middle of this but '61 409 heads were not pinned. I don't know about other years.

[skipxt4]

No they didn;'t
real61ss: Thanks, that is true. When I gave my answer to GOSFAST I was referring to 62's and up. I should have been more specific. That's a nice collection of cars you have.:clap Skip:)

[CHEV601234]

Thanks, guys. The "QB" has no effect whatsoever in my end of this business. It just happened to pique my curiousity. I know the Vettes, Chevelles, and Camaros have similar codes and meanings. Ever since the F.A.S.T. class racing up here in the Northeast came into existence there's been a very high number of "restored" factory original looking street/strip cars being built. We are "tied-in" with these guys and have done a number of units already.

This "new" class of racing is a good deal, helps to keep the "older" style racecars on the scene. Incorporating today's technology "backwards" into these early units is like starting all over for us.

The nicest part of what I do is seeing a 1953 Henry-J with one of our "Nailheads" running the nostalgia drags in Epping, N.H. a few weks ago, or a just finished
"Blown" 392 Hemi in an early Willys, or a "Dual-Quad 409" going down the strip. It's scenes that most of my "today" customers can only watch videos on or read about, but I say to them "you just had to be there".

Again, I appreciate all the feedback. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. When we work on all these "new" units today that are "designed" to use 93 octane and you see a SB 383" making 500 HP or a BB "Bow-Tie 540" also 93 octane come off the dyno at 750 HP it makes realize how much more of a challenge you face to make the "oddball" units, the 409's, the early Hemis, the "Nailheads", the "Rocket V-8's, the Pontiac's (389's), or the "tried & true" Flatheads, achieve (almost) close to those numbers. The units of today you merely "pick the parts" and "put 'em together", not so with these others. I personally enjoy the "challenge"! Thanks again guys!

(Add) Hi Ronnie, I put this here after the fact. To the "gentleman's" post you answered I wouldn't even comment. Let me just expand on the "X's". I don't want anyone to be able "spot" a unit we build by ANY numbers posted up here and we never know where/when these units are raced. I had some issues recently with names and combos that were traced back by "names/numbers". That's the reason for the "X's". In other words, if anyone "stumbles" on specific numbers, at a "meet" for instance, it would be "non-traceable" at least from this forum. I hope this is somewhat clear to all!

(Add) You would be "hard-pressed" to see something like this around anymore, I was involved in this unit just a few months ago! Note the aluminum "Nailhead" heads, in 45+ years of building units, this was the first set I'd seen. I wasn't even certain Buick ever had them.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/th_MVC-017S.jpg (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/MVC-017S.jpg)

I intreputed the qoutes as meaning the "X:s were actually stamped on the block. It helps to be more specfic, like where the VIN should be stamped.....ol buddy!

Someone else already answered the question about the pinned studs, and he's correct. I'm sure you'll believe him, so call off the dogs.

[oldskydog]

817 castings (340hp) are 409 heads and were not pinned.

[Ronnie Russell]

Skip, I dont know much about anything, but I have learned one thing, never use the word " all" to describe 409 parts........:rofl :rofl CHEV601234,,,,,, All the dogs are back in the pen....... :)

[petepedlar]

I believe the only heads that have pins were the 690's & 583's. I know as Oldskydog said that 817's don't have them, and I know that 333's or 379's don't have them.

[chevymusclecars]

I have a set of early 690 heads that did not have pins.

Bill

[real61ss]

I learn something everyday at this site. I didn't know that any of the heads were pinned at the factory. I've seen them with pins but I thought this was done later by the car owner. In reading Colvin's book of numbers, he doesn't make any reference to any of the 348/409 heads having pinned studs. I would think pinned studs would be a pretty significant change. He does point out that the 1147 heads had hardned studs and the Z-11 heads had screw-in studs but no meantion of pinned studs.
As I said, my '61 409 doesn't have them, not sure about my '63, next time I have the valve covers off, I'll have to check.

[oldskydog]

Tommy,
Colvin's book is generally good info and a much needed reference to us all but even he made some mistakes and omissions. For instance he apparently wasn't aware of the Julian date coding that began with the CFD castings since he says that "some dates have been found with all three digits represented as numbers such as "345," which decodes as March 4, 1965." I think we all know that this is wrong and apparently wasn't known to him when he wrote the book. Another good example is his description of the 61 3795623 block casting where he makes an incorrect interpretation of the factory blueprint on page 61 of the 60-64 edition He states that "This block is identical with the 3771705 348 block except that the 3.38 diameter bevel cut at the bottom of the cylinder bore has been omitted." His error was in reading the blueprint wrong whereas the 3.38 diameter note on the drawing was referring to the radius of the valve relief cutout in the top of the bore not a "bevel cut" in the bottom of the bore. In other words the difference was the omission of the valve relief cutout found on the 348 engines.

[GOSFAST]

While this post is still "active" and I have some free time I'll pass a few more tips along here that you can all "store" somewhere. When I read the previous post on the "notches" it made me recall some add'l machine work on one roller-cam (Comp Cams) equipped unit that had some Pontiac exhaust valves inside.

I used the 2.190"(I)/1.770"(E) x .343" x 5.220" length stems, undercut for flow, for both valves and stepped the guides back down. Due to the "large" cam specs, 252*/262* @ .050" x .660"/.620" lifts I had to "flow-notch" the block to clear the exhaust valves. Fairly simple-straight forward deal. When fully opened, valves were too close for good flow. Since you're not in an area where any dimensions are changing (like piston/valve) it was just a matter of giving the exhaust some extra "breathing" room.

I made my own guide plates, didn't care for the "heavy" ones the aftermarket guys sold. Used 1.73 x 7/16" Ford rockers on the intakes and 1.7's x 7/16" on the exhaust side with some ARP 7/16" HD studs. This gave me the .660"/.620" lifts. For valve springs I used Comps also, 1.550" OD with some "Titanium" retainers and 10 degree locks on top!

I'll just put a couple more here. This is one of my most important one's here and is actually very much like the Ford "FE" units with the pressed-in oil galley plugs. These must be drilled and tapped for screw-in pipe plugs. Those 10 pressed-in pieces are an accident waiting to happen. If one plug comes, oil pressure quickly "disappears".

I hope some of this info helps many of you guys up here. Much of it, important as it may be, is gradually disappearing as time passes. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. DO NOT use the "stock" 409 connecting rods in any decent build. If you have a chance lay one flat in front of you, look hard by the area around the head of the bolt from a side view and you'll notice material "missing" for support. If you have a later 396/454 rod handy you can compare them side-by-side at the cheeks! And, finally, if any are contemplating using the "Ross" stocking pistons, call them and tell them you want to be able to use that later 369/454 rod. The pin height in the "stocking" ones won't work with the add'l 1/8" longer rod. Installing "stronger" rod bolts won't help one bit, the rod's the issue!

Double P.S. "Happy Thanksgiving", Gary.

[CHEV601234]

gofast,
Your exhausts aren't any bigger thatn stock (o.01). You're not really goiving them extra "brething" room, but clearance room so they don't hit the side of the case. (hi lift). Have you checked static CR with the notches? You're losing a few thenths.
sorry I jumpoed on you before, but your uinderstanding of stock is very lame. I appreciate the FAST drags too. Still don't under stand why you want to hide original numbers. Are the parts you're using stolen>? Who cares what the original stampings are?????? your building a race engine..right.

[chevymusclecars]

gofast,
Your exhausts aren't any bigger thatn stock (o.01). You're not really goiving them extra "brething" room, but clearance room so they don't hit the side of the case. (hi lift). Have you checked static CR with the notches? You're losing a few thenths.
sorry I jumpoed on you before, but your uinderstanding of stock is very lame. I appreciate the FAST drags too. Still don't under stand why you want to hide original numbers. Are the parts you're using stolen>? Who cares what the original stampings are?????? your building a race engine..right.


GOFAST came to this site in search of information and even attempted to share his experience with the group so I don't understand why you are attacking him.

You made the worst appology I have ever seen and then again began your attack.

GOFAST, ignore this guy you will find him to be the exception in this group. There are a lot of people here that enjoy helping and hearing the experiences of others, I hope you will stay around.

Bill

[Dick MacKenzie]

GOFAST, ignore this guy you will find him to be the exception in this group. There are a lot of people here that enjoy helping and hearing the experiences of others, I hope you will stay around.

Bill

Bill is 100% Right. There is a wealth of information, skill & talent here along with a great bunch of people. I really don't understand CHEV601234's agenda. As with all groups occaisionally an ego comes out of the woodwork. Don't let that stop you from sharing your experiences and knowledge.

[fatride]

Guys that have acually had an engine apart know which one of these guys know's what he's talking about. ;)

[skipxt4]

I know all High Per. 09's had them (61 being the exception) but I thought 340 H.P. had them also. Naturally you wouldn't see them on truck engines. You learn something new every day.:clap I stand corrected..... Skip :)

[GOSFAST]

Hi guys, it's OK, being in business for a long time we've been there before. Believe me when I say, some of my own customers who I deal with are "toughies". Not an issue.

Just make certain you "savvy" guys grab any of these "tips" you can and use them, or better yet, maybe even expand on them! As I stated earlier, technology keeps changing and most times at least some it can be made retroactive.

Another quick example here, for years many of my own customers were "afraid" to run solid-roller cams in street cars, too many issues. Now that Comp and others have the new pressure-fed pin oiling directly to the "axles" I've been able to convince more to go that direction. There's some huge benefits in this area alone for so many due to the fact the zinc is gradually being removed from the available oils, which is shortening the "flat-tappet" cam life. Another is the
"breaking in" period for these cams along with the "stiff 1.7+" rocker ratios on BOTH these "W" units and the "good-old "BB" Chevys. There is no "break-in" with the rollers, start it up and let it idle if necessary. How many times have you gone to "fire" a unit and it just won't start. Chances are the flat-tappet cam is already on it's way out by the time the problem's corrected. Crank it for an hour with a roller and a "no-start" condition, as long as you have oil pressure, you will NOT lose the cam! (Read between the lines here, it may save many reading here much grief)

I just contracted another "409" donated from a "fresh-water" cooled Marine unit. Destined for a '62 Belair. Will be a "Nostalgia" build WITH a solid roller setup. Have the roller cam and lifters already in inventory. Another one "returning" to the ranks instead of "leaving"!

Thanks again, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Lighten up on "our friend", sometimes you need to get hit by a "Mack Truck" before you wake up! I would rather help him than condemn him, but he is going to have to "figure-out" certain things in life for himself, like those "XXX"s! I had
thought I made it fairly clear previously.

[Ronnie Russell]

GOFAST's explaination is a description of notching a passenger car block to promote exhaust valve flow or actually reducing turbulance. .650 is the given for maximum ex. valve lift for a passenger car block, and even then that is valve to block clearance. That is why it is popular to use the truck block for race engines. The notch is already there, as everyone knows. The notch added to passenger car block is less drastic and reduces cR less yet still unshrouds the valve. GOFAST will build to the customers request. The customer must have his reasons. His money, his right. GOFAST suggestions are already known to many, but what about the next future suggestion? The best way to learn is to put it all on the table and let people sort through and pick up what they need. I look forward to his future suggestions, as I do like to learn new stuff and you never know where that will come from.

[GOSFAST]

GOFAST's explaination is a description of notching a passenger car block to promote exhaust valve flow or actually reducing turbulance. .650 is the given for maximum ex. valve lift for a passenger car block, and even then that is valve to block clearance. That is why it is popular to use the truck block for race engines. The notch is already there, as everyone knows. The notch added to passenger car block is less drastic and reduces cR less yet still unshrouds the valve. GOFAST will build to the customers request. The customer must have his reasons. His money, his right. GOFAST suggestions are already known to many, but what about the next future suggestion? The best way to learn is to put it all on the table and let people sort through and pick up what they need. I look forward to his future suggestions, as I do like to learn new stuff and you never know where that will come from.

Hi Ronnie, you are 100% correct with the notching and all the rest. The gain in overall flow is much greater than the "loss" in the C.R. And by the way, ALL these numbers are built in way ahead of time. In other words if I notch the blocks, I've already factored that in to the build. If I want 9:1, 10:1, or 11:1 etc., this number will be there, notched or not!

Also, as stated above, the (additional) notches we machine in are nowhere the size of the "factory" cast in ones found in these "Truck/Marine" units.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. When Chevrolet released the "mysterious" 396 in 1963 to "Grumpy" Bill (Jenkins) and probably a few others, they already knew that by changing the
"valve angles" to the present BB design, there was some "substantial" power to be gained. On a "canted" valve setup as you move the head's of the valves away from the (cylinder) walls with more lift, it tends to "unshroud" the valves and increases the flow numbers. Same "theory" as the "Hemis". This short paragraph sums up why we discourage customers (my own) from using 2.190"/1880" valves in "oval" port BB heads. It's a waste of time. We use a 2.125"/1.810" combo with .343" stems and have way surpassed the larger valves power-wise on the dyno. Remember this is on the G.M. factory iron "ovals" only, where the customer simply demands "larger" valves. This is especially important on the 396's due to the inherently "small" bores.

[Rusty Everitt]

Hi Gary,
Really enjoy reading your tips. I perked up when reading some of your info about the roller cams. Do you know of any hydrolic rollers available for the 409's ?
Thanks,
Rusty

[models916]

Gofast, what are you doing for rings on these engines? Gapless first or second? what kind of gaps? Who's ring package? Just interested. Thanks

[Ronnie Russell]

Rusty, I would think that the Comp Cams part no. 838L locking bars with standard Chevy hyd. roller lifters would do the trick. A phone call to Comp cams tech staff would give you up to date info. As far as grind goes , be prepared to offer all information of engine and car data , and they can provide a good grind for your use. Maybe GOFAST has better info. or suggestion.

[Dond409]

Ronnie,

That's what I did when I did my engine. Got sick of looking at cam specs. I called up Comp cams. Told them what I had and what I wanted to use it for. In about a week I had a brand new custom ground cam at my door. I strongly recommend this route to all.

[Rusty Everitt]

Thanks Ronnie. Sounds like a good idea. Not ready to install yet but thought I would get some leads first. By the way, did you get my mail ? Another note, I found some brackets and an iron pulley for my p/s job from a member of this forum over in Ft Worth but can seem to get him to let go or set a price....operation on hold again. How are things going ?
Rusty

[Ronnie Russell]

Rusty, I owe you $1.60 refund for postage. Cannot afford to send you a check until after I pay Christmas bills. A member from Ft Worth just gave me a hood. Possibly you dont "beg" as well as I do. :brow :brow

[rstreet]

Ronnie
I am going to create a begging box if you guys ever get to the east coast:brow :brow But it will have "FE" parts in it also

[Rusty Everitt]

Nonsense, I probably owe you more, especially if I can get you to do the begging for me.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Gary,
Really enjoy reading your tips. I perked up when reading some of your info about the roller cams. Do you know of any hydrolic rollers available for the 409's ?
Thanks,
Rusty

Gofast, what are you doing for rings on these engines? Gapless first or second? what kind of gaps? Who's ring package? Just interested. Thanks

Rusty, I would think that the Comp Cams part no. 838L locking bars with standard Chevy hyd. roller lifters would do the trick. A phone call to Comp cams tech staff would give you up to date info. As far as grind goes , be prepared to offer all information of engine and car data , and they can provide a good grind for your use. Maybe GOFAST has better info. or suggestion.

Ronnie,

That's what I did when I did my engine. Got sick of looking at cam specs. I called up Comp cams. Told them what I had and what I wanted to use it for. In about a week I had a brand new custom ground cam at my door. I strongly recommend this route to all.

Let me go with the questions one step at a time,

1-Hyd. Roller Lifters: Don't believe as of today there's a retro-hydraulic roller that fits the bill. I've been on Comp's case about this for some time. They do have the components but I'll explain more down here in #3 response.

2-Rings:NO GAPLESS RINGS, ever, period. Not necessary and actually causes more "wear" than conventional's. Rings need some "freedom" to move around, once the cylinder pressure "hits" the overlapping rails it sort of "locks" them up, not good at all. For what you are all involved with here I would strongly recommend staying with Sealed-Power/Speed-Pro. I have no issues with file-fits, but, I've tested non-file fits as well with .032"/.030" top and second gaps and had no power losses with them this loose. Just delivered a 396" with .030" top and .030" second AND std. tension oil rails. Unit made 500+ with 10.25 C.R. and solid lifter/flat-tappet Engle (36 year old grind) cam on 93 octane. Do prefer 1/16,1/16,3/16 S.T. package for the street, L.T. for the strip, if the budget dictates.

3.-Lifters:The solid roller setup works with the Ford (838-8) link bars, this we've known for some years now. The problem, heads up here Rusty, is that the only retro-lifters I know of at this time are all of the "captured-link" system. This means you cannot remove the link-bars from the lifter bodies. I've "blasted" them down at Comp over this issue for a very long time now. I explained to them that if you have 1 bad lifter you have no choice but to change the pair. I also believe "morel" may be the sole manufacturer of all these H.R. lifters, not 100% sure.

4.-We have our own method of choosing cam grinds and would NEVER let the companies have their opinion here. Between some high-end software and thousands of dyno sheets to fall back on, we need no help there. When we order cams we DO NOT order by "book-grind" part numbers, we order by int/exh lobe numbers and lobe-separations and nothing else.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Make certain you read this carefully: all roller cams are on cast or steel
blanks. You can order a "-8" blank from Comp and it will be cast, if you order the same specs on "-9" it will be steel. Now, if you run a cast blank you can use the factory distributor gear AND the factory fuel-pump pushrod. If you order a "-9" steel blank you have to make sure you specify a cast gear at the back if you want to use the stock distributor AND the same stock fuel-pump pushrod. If you get a steel gear at the back you will need a Bronze distributor gear AND a bronze-tipped fuel pump pushrod. It gets confusing, if it gets mixed up its simply a "disaster"! If you happen to order a "book-grind" the giveaway will be the last digit in the cam part number. For these "W" units it will read "48-000-8" for cast OR "48-000-9" for steel. Included on the cam card should be the distributor gear requirements, hopefully! Hope I covered it all guys!

[Ronnie Russell]

GOFAST,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,1. Have never used a hyd. roller with 409s but know of two others that have. One is Crane components. I do not know specifics. 2. Have never used gapless rings, but my theory is a little different. Being ultra-conservative, I think of the gap as a pressure relief system. Excessive cyl pressure having a way out. This is my own opinion, and do know it is against majority belief. I use Speed pro moly file fit and fit to .020-=.020 . Some have told me that they feel .020 is too loose, but it works well for me. Your .030-.030 surprises me alot, but you know more than I. But I will stay with .020 because Im stubborn, .........4. It still seems smarter for those that are not cam experts to order from Cam tech that has everything on the computer and can provide a good cam for a particular application. Thanks for all of your input.

[CDNpontiac409guy]

4.-We have our own method of choosing cam grinds and would NEVER let the companies have their opinion here. Between some high-end software and thousands of dyno sheets to fall back on, we need no help there. When we order cams we DO NOT order by "book-grind" part numbers, we order by int/exh lobe numbers and lobe-separations and nothing else.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

I agree COMPLETELY about camshaft selection:beerbang.
Must admit that I too, like things a little loose. Trends lately have indicated that slightly larger on the second ring actually reduces friction and pressure build-up between the ring lands, resulting in more power. No gapless for me either.

[GOSFAST]

(quote) Now, if you run a cast blank you can use the factory distributor gear AND the factory fuel-pump pushrod. If you order a "-9" steel blank you have to make sure you specify a cast gear at the back if you want to use the stock distributor AND the same stock fuel-pump pushrod. If you get a steel gear at the back you will need a Bronze distributor gear AND a bronze-tipped fuel pump pushrod. It gets confusing, if it gets mixed up its simply a "disaster"! If you happen to order a "book-grind" the giveaway will be the last digit in the cam part number. For these "W" units it will read "48-000-8" for cast OR "48-000-9" for steel. Included on the cam card should be the distributor gear requirements, hopefully! Hope I covered it all guys! [end quote]

Just a correction here, in the above statement where I said (quote) If you order a "-9" steel blank you have to make sure you specify a cast gear at the back if you want to use the stock distributor AND the same stock fuel-pump pushrod. If you get a steel gear at the back you will need a Bronze distributor gear AND a bronze-tipped fuel pump pushrod. (end quote) The part about the cast cam gear at the back has no connection to the fuel-pump pushrod. All steel cams require a bronze tipped fuel-pump pushrod regardless of the distributor drive gear, all cast cams use the factory steel pushrod. Sorry guys. Like I said, sometimes this gets very confusing.

I will check in the coming week about the retro-hyd. rollers. If someone has used the OEM lifters I would have no way of knowing anything about this setup. The max lift with the stock factory-roller units is about .500" to the best of my knowledge, at least in the OEM setups.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

(Add) If you guy's need help with cam specs just e-mail me at Theengineshop@aol.com and I'll gladly
"run the numbers"! I may not answer immediately but I will get back to you.

P.S. To sum it up:
Steel cam/steel gear=bronze tipped fuel-pump pushrod/bronze dist. gear.
Steel cam/cast gear=bronze tipped fuel-pump pushrod/cast (stock) dist. gear.
Cast cam/cast gear=stock fuel-pump pushrod/cast (stock) dist. gear also.
You should really use steel cams for longevity.
Run an electric pump and don't worry about the fuel pump pushrod!

[Rusty Everitt]

Gary,
If one installs a retro fit(CROWER) steel hyd roller w/cast gear and uses a stock fuel pump pushrod...what happens? I did this on a 454 some years ago and have had a problem that I can't put my finger on. The problem occured about a year after installation ( Thought it was carb,some blockage in fuel tank,fuel pump?). It's still going but I never solved the problem, it's a daily driver and I needed the transporation, seems like if the lobe went away or the pushrod wore away their would be alot of racket coming from that area?
Rusty

[dq409]

2. Have never used gapless rings, but my theory is a little different. Being ultra-conservative, I think of the gap as a pressure relief system. Excessive cyl pressure having a way out. This is my own opinion, and do know it is against majority belief.

Have to go with Ronnie and OZ on this,,,,
From all the info I`ve gathered picking the brains I know, the theory seems to be
that the gapless ring will be pushed down and actually loose contact, rotating down and pushed back into the ring groove with the bore under high pressure. Where as the gapped ring will relieve some of this pressure through the gap,hold compression better and some of that pressure will reach the oil rings and help the oil ring seal better.

This comes from many race engine builders I know. one in particular that builds blown nitro hemi`s.

If you think about this it makes sense,,,,dq

[CHEV601234]

Gofast,
Have you notciced any problems running a steel timing egear against the cast block? (flat tappet)

[GOSFAST]

Gofast,
Have you notciced any problems running a steel timing egear against the cast block? (flat tappet)

Not really any issues to date, but I have to tell you I use a number of, ready guys?, the original old style "nylon" 100% original timing gears. I know I'll get "hammered" for this but let me explain more.

The "nylon" gear absorbs much of the "harmonics" from the engine/drivetrain and keeps those "pulses" from reaching the roller lifters. I DO NOT USE THIS SETUP IN EVERY UNIT, it's decided on a per/unit basis and it's intended use. The problem I'm having with these "Nylons" is they're getting hard to come by!

An added "bonus" with this setup is some "free" add'l HP upstairs. High-end "belt-drives" are expensive and not recommended for street use!

Most "standard" street units get a "true-roller" setup and I machine almost of these gears .030" at the backside to accept either the (SB) 201 or the (BB) 203 "Borg-Warner" shims. Some units also get the "Torrington" setup as well. Normally the customer's budget dictates the components, I build them right the first time, I don't have time to do them over. What I mean by that statement is I put parts in there that will last well past the customer's expectations. ALL parts.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. If I may I'll show a photo of one of my customer's units, been in just about every different hot-rod magazine on the stands, over the past years.
THE UNIT "UNDER" HIS HOOD HAS A NYLON TIMING SET UNDER THE COVER! Cam gear #S362N (H/D) piece, not to be confused with the #S392N (L/D) piece. Spring pressures in the area of 300 closed/800 open, in the neighborhood of 1100+ HP, and constantly running 9.30's on street tires at about 3900# or so! It's one "awesome" unit that's been out of the shop now some 3-4 years with the same components. It'll be back in a few months for a complete "overhaul". Strong daily street runner up here in the Northeast. He's also a good friend.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/In%20The%20Magazines/th_Hunters56-01.jpg (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/GOSFAST/In%20The%20Magazines/Hunters56-01.jpg)

[Ronnie Russell]

Gary, Appreciate the information. Very interesting, however, so there will be no misunderstandings, can you isolate suggestions to w-head engines. Do not want to confuse anyone. Part numbers to only w-heads??? Thanks very much........

[CHEV601234]

Gofast,
I'm hoping that your first sentence answered my question. No machining or spacers or bearings behind a true roller steel gear and the block.right??(flat tappet_
flat atppets work the camn to the rear, rolers do not. question is specific to flat tappet, but I know you like rollers:doh

[GOSFAST]

Gary, Appreciate the information. Very interesting, however, so there will be no misunderstandings, can you isolate suggestions to w-head engines. Do not want to confuse anyone. Part numbers to only w-heads??? Thanks very much........

Gofast,
I'm hoping that your first sentence answered my question. No machining or spacers or bearings behind a true roller steel gear and the block.right??(flat tappet_
flat atppets work the camn to the rear, rolers do not. question is specific to flat tappet, but I know you like rollers:doh


Ronnie, gotcha, many of the questions/answers take on a "life" of their own here, hard to keep track sometimes, will try to maintain order! Gary

Chev601234: I personally won't use "steel" timing gears against the "face" of any cast-iron block. There MOST LIKELY will be no issue's but I prefer not to run it like that! I would most definitely use the "stock" factory iron crank/cam gears, Melling #'s S262(crank)/S261(cam) or as I stated the "nylon" cam gear #S261N, which is made with Aluminum. If I simply had to use the aftermarket steel, I would run the "bronze" shim as a "buffer". For everyone here following the part numbers, the chain for the "factory" gears, iron or nylon, is the Melling #494.

(Add) Rusty (missed this one before!): Hardened "cast" cam, "steel" cam use bronze tip F/P pushrod, stock "cast" cam (flat-tappet OR roller), use stock F/P pushrod. A mismatch will wear either the lobe OR the pushrod. Most often the lobe will go "south". ALWAYS CHECK WITH THE CAMSHAFT MANUFACTURER! (Don't trust the supplier/vendor, only the mfr.)

I'll pass this along also, with respect to "multi-keyway" timing sprockets, those crank gears that have some 9 or so keys in them, avoid using them, don't waste your money. To the "average" builder they are nothing more than one "giant" headache! They are not necessary. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

(Add) By the way, don't know how many here are aware, but the crank/cam sprockets (not the chain) on the '09's are the same pieces found in the early 283/327 SB units but in the '09's use the #494, "48-link" chain instead mentioned above.

P.S. You have to keep things in perspective here, many times you'll end buying "performance" oriented pieces and really when it comes down to the end result, most of the "original" style components are still able to do the job quite well. If you think back, these cars were able to make it to 70,000+ miles without really major issues. Most units that we do today with the way our customers use the cars will take upwards of 10 years or more to get to that number! These are not everyday/all-weather drivers anymore. These are "fun" cars! However, "race" units have their own set of rules for components!

[Tom Kochtanek]

Gary:

Thanks for all the tips and tricks, I really enjoyed reading those posts, and will likely go back and review them as I continue to learn more about these engines and the cars they reside in.

I had to laugh at your quip "These are not everyday/all-weather drivers anymore" when I thought of my own (current) personal situation. My everyday car just gave itself up about a month ago, and since then I have been driving my '62SS 409 stroker daily :). In the trunk are my tools (carpentry stuff, saws and such) and toolbox, along with materials and such. No, I don't haul lumber (yet!), but I do have the car filled with construction related stuff. Eight garage door openers sit clipped to the visor. I'm thinking I might need a truck, but am a cheapskate when it comes to cars that depreciate (as opposed to collectibles that appreciate). Dad always taught me to pay cash for things that go down in value, but that it was OK to borrow for things that appreciate (like housing).

Other than a few scratches in my perfectly restored trunk (easy to clean and re-splatter) the vehicle has suffered little consequences, and can easily be cleaned up and put back into its previous level of cosmetics. Just last month it was in a local car show. They guys on the job site think I'm nuts, but then I'm their paycheck, so I don't get tooo much grief...

Just thought I'd let you know there are "drivers" out there, even with newly restored cars :). And thanks again for your contributions to the discussion threads!

Best,
TomK

[CDNpontiac409guy]

About the cam sprocket to block wear.... it becomes a problem as valve spring pressures increase ( flat tappet cams ). On my Stocker, which has in excess of 250 lbs seat & 460+ open, I did experience a certain amount of wear on the face of the cam thrust surface ( Cloyes true roller ). Nothing terrible, but if it was driven extensively, it would definitely be a problem.
Block is now machined for torrington thrust bearing.

[fatride]

I had a wear plate made for my 409 block after a near disaster with a high perf. flat tappet cam and Cloyes true roller timing set. I am using the wear plate with a roller cam now.