817's for the 348

[RCE1962]

Because of the rarity of the High Performance 348 heads available for sale and if nobody is concerned with a numbers correct build for a 348......well...those 817's would be a very good performance compatible replacement. :deal

This WBC engine complimented with 2½ inch cast iron exhaust manifolds or headers, various internals such as a good cam, higher compression, plus a good tri-power intake set-up......is not only drop-dead pretty.... but would make a very punchy Hi-Performance 348 street engine. :eek: OK... add a blower instead. :D ..thats been done too. Search threads.

Not sure whether these heads would properly support larger bore-stroker versions. Others with some experience with this may want to comment.

Ron

[Ronnie Russell]

Ron, I agree. 817s will accept 2.19 valves. I have never used 333s or 379s except for stock rebuilds, so I'm not sure if they will accept 2.19s. I know a lot of the guys put 2.06s in the 333s. In my opinion, the price of 817s will soar in the years to come. Just saw a nice pair sell for $450 on e-bay and I was quite surprised they sold that low. As far as supporting larger engines, I have a set on my 482 street motor and am very pleased with the results. As good as 690s?? Of course not, not even close, but an affordable option. :)

[Tom Kochtanek]

Ronnie:

I'd be interested in why you think the 817s will be pricier in the coming years?

Think the 333s will go higher also? More than $200 - $300?

Got several sets of both and may just hang on, am in no hurry to cash in.

Thought I saw a set of bare 817s that went for something like $800 a few weeks ago. The sets that are "ready to go" with valves and springs go quite a bit higher, but then there's shop costs and the cost of parts (valves, springs, keepers) to consider...

Cheers!
TomK

[Ronnie Russell]

Tom, Seems like all 409 parts are going up , year by year. People are discovering a 340 hp 409 makes their Impalas worth much more than a 327. Supply and demand. The supply keeps dwindeling. I do not understand why one set sells for $400 and a week later another set sells for $800. Both sets-bare cores. Because of the large amount of truck motors that were used, it seems that 333s are common and inexpensive. 817s on the other hand were not made in huge numbers. Even though most conclude that 333s and 817s flow the same, I still have doubts. For years we have wondered but it is not important enough for someone to actually flow some. I' m aware of the Showcars cfm estimates, but how accurate are they? So I base my opinion that 817s will appreciate is simply because there are less of them than 333s. Afterall , I can't think of any W-head parts that have depreciated at all. Since you have several sets of each, I would think that the future looks bright . :cheers

[gearhead409]

the hipo 348 and 340hp 409 heads are virtually identical on intake and exhaust port size. the 333 truck heads have the large intake ports same as above heads but have smaller exhaust ports more like the std. 250hp 348 heads. BUT i do think with some port work and designing a piston around the truck head combustion chamber you could make these heads work very well.

[petepedlar]

Here's a set of 333's with 2.19 intakes and 1.72's that sold on Ebay. The big valves do fit.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170079428530&rd=1,1


Dave

[jester]

This is just a thought I had after reading the article on The Barret Jackson Auctions. What if I had a set of 817 heads that I wanted to sell in a year or two. I could post them on ebay and have a friend bid on them for , say $800.00. I could pay the commissions , than wait a month and do it again. each time , raising the price. When I was ready to sell them I could get a good price because I increased the demand. Hmmm, just something to think about or I've been snowbound to long.:rofl

[models916]

Just check who is bidding on what and where they live and what they bought in the past and you can see friends in the same town bidding things up.

[Tom Kochtanek]

Jester suggests: "I could post them on ebay and have a friend bid on them for , say $800.00. I could pay the commissions , than wait a month and do it again. each time , raising the price. When I was ready to sell them I could get a good price because I increased the demand."

Models, who we now know is the "Wizard of Ebay" in terms of sleuthing, makes good sense here. Plus, IMHO, it's just plain wrong to do business this way. While perhaps good for one person's pocketbook, it's not good for the hobby.

I admit when I do make the decision to sell stuff on Ebay, I am looking to make top dollar, and am willing to keep the parts if they don't sell. But I'd rather pass around good parts at fair prices to people in the hobby who may not be able to compete with the "big pockets" fellas. Two sides of the same coin?

Don't mean to make comments on how to do things, and we all know Jester was just suggesting things (hence the name :)). But when 690 heads go for $3000 plus I begin to worry. I still think they are worth less than $1500, but I am rapidly getting old fashioned and outdated :). Supply is out there, demand is high.

End of commentary :).

Cheers,
TomK

[Ronnie Russell]

Dave, Thanks for posting that ad. That answers my question about the 2.19s. Something I was curious aboout and now I know. Seems like $825 would be a great price for that particular set of heads, especially if someone was starting with a shortblock and need a good set of heads. gearhead's information about port sizes was good to know also. I guess the concern I have left is .... Just because the port sizes are the same between the 333s and 817s does not mean the bowl shape and radial turns are the same. In other words, the stuff you can't see or easily measure. Maybe more iron around the guides in one set compared to the other. The ad said, " some engine builders say", maybe so, maybe not. I would still like to see an independant shop flow all 409 casting no. (unmodified) and see comparible numbers. I'm curious, but not curious enough to spend the money for testing. As it stands now, what we know is that the 333s and 817s are very close in performance with the exception of exhaust ports which are easily improved with a die-grinder. Thanks to all for posting answers.

[gearhead409]

the info from last night was taken from a 1147,817 and a 333 head with the valves removed using ID calipers. it included the bowl area.

[petepedlar]

Ronnie, I think I'm going to get us some real numbers. I now have one good set each of factory never messed with 333's, 817's and 690's. Well the 690's are on the way and not here yet...........Dave Bishop is married to my cousin. He does high performance heads for a living and is very well respected in the Pontiac world. He does heads for racers all over North America. He specializes in Pontiac stuff but does a lot of Chevy stuff as well. I'm going to see if I can get "the family discount" on some flow numbers on all three of these heads. It might take a few months because the 333's are on a complete running engine and I'm not ready to take it apart yet.

I'll see what it'll cost, we may have to pass the hat around .......:hug

Dave

[Ronnie Russell]

Count me in Dave, I will chip in what I can. gearhead, I have no doubts about your measurments. I appreciate you taking the time to clear up the "unknown".

[skipxt4]

I'm probably gonna be in HOT water again, But the seller says those 333 heads have 2.19 in. and 1.72 ex. I agree they have 2.19in. but the exhaust look a little suspect to me. I know my 690's have the large valves. The intake and exhaust on 690's are alot closer together than what the picture of the 333 shows. I can't say, for sure. I've never had any other heads, with the smaller valves. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize in advance. Skip:)

[1958 delivery]

2.19 & 1.72. What if you find out after you purchase that they leak?
I don't know which would be worst, them leaking or all the work I had to go through to find that out!
While a reputable seller would take care of the head (refund?) what about all that labor and money spent assembling, installing etc? The seller isn't responsible for that.
I don't trust much of what's on Ebay.

[petepedlar]

Just for everyones info I know that seller very well....... I've bought from him & sold to him....... (and his wife)..... There's a lot of rip off artists out there but these people are definately not.
They are both super people & if they say it's good I'd personally stand behind them .......

Dave

[1958 delivery]

I hope you didn't take my response as an attack on that seller. I've not seen that ad, nor do I frequent Ebay, just expressing an opinion about buying from unknowns and the possibilities that too often happen.

[petepedlar]

Hey 1958 Delivery..... didn't take it as an attack at all........ as I said there are a lot of rip off artists out there and in todays world you have to be careful......but I just wanted everyone here to know that isn't the case with these people........ They've helped me a lot with 409 stuff...... sent me things I didn't even ask for just because they knew would need them........ they've been messing with 409's for a very long time and have a collection of engines & parts we'd all envy.

I realize you don't use Ebay and this might not make much sense to you but I'll explain a bit how it works.......... they have been on Ebay since 2000 and have 541 reported sales on Ebay with 99.8 % positive feedback........ so in 6 years they have had maybe 2 or 3 people out of 541 that were not happy with the transaction......... Dealing with the public I'd say that's a pretty awesume reputation.

Dave

[1958 delivery]

Back to heads with bigger valves-too much value is placed on "big" valves. On a SB chevy the difference between a 1.94" and a 2.02" is virtually nothing. I would double think rushing in and putting in 2.19's considering the risk involved. A little different cam profile could probably accomplish the same or maybe even more!

[petepedlar]

I am no expert but I totally agree. Look at what you can do with a stroked sbc and 2.02 valves. I think that unless you're building something to out & out race the 333's or 817's will do fine. I will in time get some flow tests done on all three stock valve sizes so we'll know for sure. The 333's have the raised "bumps" in the runners...... there are supposed to be torque inducers. The little combustion chamber I believe was put there to also help with the torque. I don't believe the general designed 333's to lower compression because the W was designed to take different pistons to change compression ratios. I'm sure it would have been cheaper to shave a little more off the top of a piston rather than cast a whole new head.

Dave

[tripower]

I am planning on using the 1147 castings on my stroker project. I was planning on doing some port work but am wondering if that would decrease the value of the heads as they are getting to be so hard to come by?:dunno