VIN Dilemma

[jboatno4]

This has definitely overcooked my grits..........

The body shop that has been doing some of the restoration on my '59 seems to have "lost" the VIN and paint code tags.

I'm not sure how to deal with this after I get out of jail for kicking their @$$es.

Any suggestions are welcome,

Jack

[Ronnie Russell]

Jack, You gotta do it legally or illegally. I would suggest getting a lawyer and sue for big money.

[1958 delivery]

They never should have removed those for paint in the first place. Most states will require to see the vin on the frame which means the body comes off or you cut a hole in the floor pan. You better hope the frame was never changed out cause you could lose your car. Is the car already registered? If so, maybe you can find some one out of Hemmings that makes correct vin tags, with proper documentation of course.

[models916]

Are you certain you are getting your car back? Make them produce the car with tags that came in. Should match the title. Sounds like their problem not yours.

[jim_ss409]

I'm just trying to think positively here, but they might show up. When I've got small important parts that I can't afford to loose, I put them someplace safe. But half the time I can't remember where that safe place is.:scratch Sooner or later I find the part though. Hopefully, these guys are the same way.

[1958 delivery]

I'm just trying to think positively here, but they might show up. When I've got small important parts that I can't afford to loose, I put them someplace safe. But half the time I can't remember where that safe place is.:scratch Sooner or later I find the part though. Hopefully, these guys are the same way.



Jail's pretty safe,right?

[bubbletop1961]

They never should have removed those for paint in the first place. Most states will require to see the vin on the frame which means the body comes off or you cut a hole in the floor pan. You better hope the frame was never changed out cause you could lose your car. Is the car already registered? If so, maybe you can find some one out of Hemmings that makes correct vin tags, with proper documentation of course.

I agree, WHY would you remove those in the first place. Sounds very shakey.

[bobs409]

As for myself, I removed mine so I could remove the rust that was bubbling out from under them. My VIN tag was practically falling off due to a rust blister under it. Cowl tag had rust under it too.

I put mine in the ashtray. Hey, maybe they did too! Have them look in there. LOL :D


Bob

[Mike-Casella]

If I got the VIN plate info from my car, is there a link somewhere on this site to decode it? I tried to do a search but my stupid computer kept hitting the rev limiter and it wouldn't work.

[Mike-Casella]

Nevermind I found it. Bummer, my car's not completely original. :doh

[Ronnie Russell]

Mike, After looking at the picture of your car and reading the description, I am not surprised that your car is not " completely original". I would not worry about it. :rofl :rofl :rofl

[tripower]

Nevermind I found it. Bummer, my car's not completely original. :doh

Mike, You can always change the cowl tag and prove to everyone that your car is completly origanal...:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/59-60-61-62-chevrolet-cowl-trim-paint-tag-NOS-SS-409_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6755QQihZ015QQitemZ 250089139720QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[jboatno4]

They never should have removed those for paint in the first place. Most states will require to see the vin on the frame which means the body comes off or you cut a hole in the floor pan. You better hope the frame was never changed out cause you could lose your car. Is the car already registered? If so, maybe you can find some one out of Hemmings that makes correct vin tags, with proper documentation of course.

I know the tags were removed because of all the rust and the sand blasting that was done. I suggested that I take them for safe keeping, now I realize that I should have DEMANDED that. I have a parts car that still has its tags, but if I take them, that car is de-valued even more.

I guess I can have them take the body off again to locate the number on the frame.

We are hoping that they show up, but so far nothing... I may go to the local DMV to see what they say. I do have the title and it does (did?) match the car.

Jack

[oldskydog]

:mad: It should be the shops responsibility to set this straight with the DMV. After you get this sorted out I would suggest finding another shop. Anyone in the car business that doesn't know that it is illegal to tamper with, modify, or REMOVE a VIN tag shouldn't be in business.

[tripower]

I would not alert the DMV you will only be opening a big mess of worms.:bang It is common practice here to remove the tags for blasting and then re-install. Being very careful to duplicate the rivets or spot weld to match the factory.:bow As the DMV will notice if they are not factory rivets or spot welds.:doh A friend of mine restored a 57' Pontiac Star Chief. He also removed the vin tag and then re-installed with pop rivets.:doh Well the DMV came down on him hard and it took about four years for him to get it straightened out.:bang He was not even able to license the vehicle.:cuss I repeat " DO NOT CONTACT THE DMV ". I agree with Cecil that it is the shop owners responsibility to render this problem but, I know how that can work. You may have to get a little agressive.:takethat

[oldskydog]

I remember reading about someone that this happened to before and it was a hassle but it required the shop owner to swear on his mother's grave and sign a written affadavit or "Statement of Facts" that it was necessary to remove the tag for repair and that he was the one that removed it. As I recall, the DMV issued a new tag and would not let him reattach the old one.:eek:


Your tag was spotwelded on and if it isn't removed carefully it will tear the spotwelds loose and there is no way it can be reattached so that it looks like it was never removed. If it was removed carefully without damage it can be rewelded with a spot welder by grinding the electrodes down to a fine point that matches the original dimple. I had to do this on a 55 convertible that I restored after recovering it from the idiot body shop guy that , guess what?, removed it to strip the paint!:mad: :mad: :mad: He then proceeded to skip town one night with all my front sheet metal, doors, and trunklid and the standup compressor from the shop he was renting. Before he left he took my car on the rotisserie to a storage yard and didn't tell me or anyone else where it was. It was a long search, but I finally found it and convinced the yard owner that it was mine . I finally recovered the VIN tag from the guy's ex-wife but never found the trim tag.

Proceed with caution on this one! Good Luck
:dunno

[1958 delivery]

I would guess he removed your vin and sent the car to storage with the plan of coming back for the car at a later time, with a new vin of course!

[jboatno4]

I would not alert the DMV you will only be opening a big mess of worms.:bang It is common practice here to remove the tags for blasting and then re-install. Being very careful to duplicate the rivets or spot weld to match the factory.:bow As the DMV will notice if they are not factory rivets or spot welds.:doh A friend of mine restored a 57' Pontiac Star Chief. He also removed the vin tag and then re-installed with pop rivets.:doh Well the DMV came down on him hard and it took about four years for him to get it straightened out.:bang He was not even able to license the vehicle.:cuss I repeat " DO NOT CONTACT THE DMV ". I agree with Cecil that it is the shop owners responsibility to render this problem but, I know how that can work. You may have to get a little agressive.:takethat

I'm not sure what steps to take. We have searched the body shop and all the boxes of parts and no luck finding the tags. Now the shop manager is making noise that they (the tags) "maybe weren't there to begin with" by saying that no one at the shop can remember taking them off the car.

They have offered to "re-make" the tags, but somehow it just doesn't feel right.

In the meantime I'm told that I can't register the car or insure it. I think I really could register it, but without the tags later on where am I? Same with the insurance I think. If something happened would it really be covered?

If I decided to litigate this, how would I place a value on the tags? Or would I go for the value of the car?

Any more thoughts would certainly be appreciated.

Jack

[1958 delivery]

Your DMV has a process for missing vin tags. Check with them. Here in Calif they would require to verify the vin on the frame, if it's a match then they issue a new VIN number and what's called a "blue" tag. It's a new Calif DMV vin plate riveted to your body. Not so great but what else can you do?

[tripower]

I'm not sure what steps to take. We have searched the body shop and all the boxes of parts and no luck finding the tags. Now the shop manager is making noise that they (the tags) "maybe weren't there to begin with" by saying that no one at the shop can remember taking them off the car.

They have offered to "re-make" the tags, but somehow it just doesn't feel right.

In the meantime I'm told that I can't register the car or insure it. I think I really could register it, but without the tags later on where am I? Same with the insurance I think. If something happened would it really be covered?

If I decided to litigate this, how would I place a value on the tags? Or would I go for the value of the car?

Any more thoughts would certainly be appreciated.

Jack

Your only recourse may be to remake the tags at the body shops expense. There is a guy on ebay that has them listed so people can make counterfeit cars. Not to cool but, in your case your just replacing what your body shop lost. nothing wrong with that in my opinion and it would save a whole lot of headache. Good luck

[1958 delivery]

It is illegal to reproduce vin tags and the rosette rivets. One guy that advertises the rivets are not orig. He files them to try to make them look like rosettes. But I just had this discussion with one in the know and it is illegal to reproduce these items. Was your year welded or riveted?

[jboatno4]

It is illegal to reproduce vin tags and the rosette rivets. One guy that advertises the rivets are not orig. He files them to try to make them look like rosettes. But I just had this discussion with one in the know and it is illegal to reproduce these items. Was your year welded or riveted?

Riveted.

I certainly appreciate the responses. I am thinking I'll call DMV soon to see what they say.

Jack

[bobs409]

Your tag was spotwelded on and if it isn't removed carefully it will tear the spotwelds loose and there is no way it can be reattached so that it looks like it was never removed.


Mine has the spot welded tag and I plan on using 2 dabs of J-B weld behind the tag to re-attach. I think that will work and still look like it was never disturbed.


Bob

[rstreet]

I was just thinking can't jboatno4 "wash" the title through Alabama or Florida. My car title went through Alabama prior to.......:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D
Robert

[tripower]

There was a gal on here a few days ago that said she could help with titles if you didn't have one. Maybe she could shed some light on this subject. Anyone remember her username? Bob may be able to help find her. She posted a week or so ago.

[Rusty Everitt]

Her user name was "tinascars", look in the "For Sale Ads" section 04-26-07.

[oldskydog]

I was just thinking can't jboatno4 "wash" the title through Alabama or Florida. My car title went through Alabama prior to.......:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D
Robert

Robert,
The title isn't the problem. He has the title and should be able to register it if it was previously registered in that state.The problem will be when he tries to sell it or moves to another state or anything that will require a DMV inspection.

Jack,
I would think that if you have the title and the hidden VIN matches the title you should be able to get a state issued VIN tag and stay right with the law. It may require,and I would demand that the shop owner sign an affadavit or "Statement Of Facts" explaining that he removed the tag and that it was neccessary to do the repairs and that he bears responsibility for its loss. If not then I would say you have good grounds for a suit. The value of the VIN tag is a complicated issue. It will depend on a combination of factors such as the condition of the car before work started, the condition now and the potential condition/value of the finished product. In effect, without a VIN tag all you have is a collection of parts and in some states even that might be in doubt if you can't prove ownership of the vehicle they came from. The maximum value of the vehicle can only be realized with the original VIN tag but a state issued tag is better than none and depending on the rarity/desirability of the car in the collector market may have only a minimal effect on its value.
I believe you said your VIN tag was riveted on and that could be a problem since GM didn't start riveting VIN tags at the factory until 65. Yours should have been spotwelded on and if they removed it I would think they would remember it since it is very difficult to remove one without tearing the spotwelds. Not that I've ever done that.:rolleyes:
The first thing I would do is get a mirror and crawl under the car and try to find the hidden VIN to verify tha tit matches your title. Once you know that you should have a better idea which way to go. Find out the process for getting a state issued replacement VIN tag.

[oldskydog]

There was a gal on here a few days ago that said she could help with titles if you didn't have one. Maybe she could shed some light on this subject. Anyone remember her username? Bob may be able to help find her. She posted a week or so ago.

Her price is almost double what other title companies charge. I have used Broadway Title before and found them to be pretty reasonable. They advertise in Hemmings.

[jboatno4]

Robert,
The title isn't the problem. He has the title and should be able to register it if it was previously registered in that state.The problem will be when he tries to sell it or moves to another state or anything that will require a DMV inspection.

Jack,
I would think that if you have the title and the hidden VIN matches the title you should be able to get a state issued VIN tag and stay right with the law. It may require,and I would demand that the shop owner sign an affadavit or "Statement Of Facts" explaining that he removed the tag and that it was neccessary to do the repairs and that he bears responsibility for its loss. If not then I would say you have good grounds for a suit. The value of the VIN tag is a complicated issue. It will depend on a combination of factors such as the condition of the car before work started, the condition now and the potential condition/value of the finished product. In effect, without a VIN tag all you have is a collection of parts and in some states even that might be in doubt if you can't prove ownership of the vehicle they came from. The maximum value of the vehicle can only be realized with the original VIN tag but a state issued tag is better than none and depending on the rarity/desirability of the car in the collector market may have only a minimal effect on its value.
I believe you said your VIN tag was riveted on and that could be a problem since GM didn't start riveting VIN tags at the factory until 65. Yours should have been spotwelded on and if they removed it I would think they would remember it since it is very difficult to remove one without tearing the spotwelds. Not that I've ever done that.:rolleyes:
The first thing I would do is get a mirror and crawl under the car and try to find the hidden VIN to verify tha tit matches your title. Once you know that you should have a better idea which way to go. Find out the process for getting a state issued replacement VIN tag.

Thanks, Cecil, for the tips. We've already considered removing the body to locate the VIN stamp on the frame, however the frame was sand-blasted, hand sanded, epoxy sealed and then coated with bed liner. It may be tough to spot now without re-sanding the bed liner off.

It could be that the trim tag was spot welded and if so has torn holes into the mounting area that look like they were round enough to be riveted. I still have a parts car that has both tags that I could use but then I'm "faking" the car that's almost built as the other one and vice versa.

Sheesh!

Jack

[dq409]

I believe you said your VIN tag was riveted on and that could be a problem since GM didn't start riveting VIN tags at the factory until 65. Yours should have been spotwelded on and if they removed it I would think they would remember it since it is very difficult to remove one without tearing the spotwelds. Not that I've ever done that.:rolleyes:
.


My guess is that if it was spot welded they destroyed it taking it off and are using the lost it as an excuse !!:takethat

I would not hesitate to contact a lawyer.

Talk to a good lawyer and ask him if he can recommend one that deals with auto related problems.

If you do talk to DMV do it anonymously so they can`t come back at you,,
Good luck ,, this is BS,,,dq