Buy yourself a Mystery [Archive] - 348-409.com Info Exchange

rstreet

10-19-2009, 10:37 PM

bubbletop1961

10-19-2009, 10:41 PM

I thought Smokey was running Pontiacs in 63. His #13 I thought was on the black and gold 7/8th scale 66 or 67 Chevelle. I'm going to wait for Tommy to weigh in on this as he was driving 'em back then.:bow I was only a spectator.
robert

You are correct on the 66 chevelle, I was thinking an impala also. But now that you say pontiac, that sounds a bit more right.

bubbletop1961

10-19-2009, 10:50 PM

WE were both right. looks like pontiac thru 62, and a chevy in 63. Here is a couple of hard to see pictures.

rstreet

10-20-2009, 07:47 AM

Many years ago I saw a white Holley Farms Junior Johnson #3 63 Impala at Smokey's shop down in Fla. as well as a clone or the actual 7/8th scale Chevelle. I never thought Smokey was the wrench on that car(#3) in the day. The number 3 driven by Junior Johnson.
That picture was a good find. I think that Curtis Turner might have driven that car at Daytona but my memory is fuzzy. We'll have to wait for Tommy on this one for sure now as I'll never get this one straight.
Sort of like trying to lead the "pack" to Outback Steakhouse at Thompson last year when my GPS was "upside down":dunno:dunno
robert

NASCAR FAN

10-20-2009, 08:32 AM

There were 5 1963 Chevrolets with Mk II 427 "Mystery Motors" entered in the 1963 Daytona 500.

# 3 Ray Fox car driven byJunior Johnson
# 03 Ray Fox car driven by G. C. Spencer
# 4 Louis Clements car driven by Rex White
# 13 Smokey Yunick car driven by Johnny Rutherford
# 71 W. M. Harrison car driven by Bubba Farr

Rutherford finished 9th four laps down...Rex white finished 14th 6 laps down. The other 3--- Johnson, Spencer and Farr dropped out with engine problems.

Rick

dq409

10-20-2009, 01:35 PM

Here ya go,,,,,

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL847/1590826/4141923/51454148.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL847/1590826/4141923/51454082.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL847/1590826/4141923/51454058.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL847/1590826/4141923/51453995.jpg

Dick MacKenzie

10-20-2009, 07:18 PM

Great pictures DQ! Where did you find them?

rstreet

10-20-2009, 09:17 PM

nice find DQ
robert

real61ss

10-20-2009, 09:55 PM

Smokey ran the '63 Impala in '63, don't remember what he had in '64, may have set the year out then ran a '65 Impala with Curtis Turner driving before building the '66 Chevelle.

real61ss

10-20-2009, 09:58 PM

Check these out.....

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613665

real61ss

10-20-2009, 10:02 PM

Well maybe not, if the pictures won't open Google PY Forums and go to the Lobby scroll down to race car pictures, some Dude has some great old Pontiac and Chevy phots from the 59 and 61 Daytona races

rstreet

10-20-2009, 10:04 PM

Tom I couldn't open them and wish I could based on the comments.
Robert

real61ss

10-20-2009, 10:16 PM

Sorry, they weregreat. I'm a member of that forum, I'm going to try to get them to repost them, actually they have already reposted some of the Pontiac pictures. A really nice shot of the famed Fireball

There were some great close up shots of Rex White's '61 Chevy

dq409

10-21-2009, 12:47 AM

Great pictures DQ! Where did you find them?

Awh shi*,,, Can't remember,,, had em for a while now. I think I scanned them from a book I have,,,,,,, somewhere.

Here are a few more,,,

dq409

10-21-2009, 12:56 AM

And my all time favorite is a local legend Carl Joiner,,,

oil4kids

10-21-2009, 04:48 PM

Rick

the MKII Mystery motor was 409 cu in displacement

and the Mk IIs (stroked)was 427

The Smokey Yunick 1966 Chevelle #13 was built on a Z16 1965 396 frame which ended up under a few other cars then in a junkyard according to Smokey

real61ss

10-21-2009, 05:05 PM

"the MKII Mystery motor was 409 cu in displacement"

Huh...... throughout the mid sixties there was a note in the NASCAR Grand National rule book that said, Absolutely no 1963 427 Chevrolet motors or parts thereof allowed

oil4kids

10-21-2009, 06:02 PM

yes its true the original mystery motor was just a 90 degree block 409 3.5 inch crank with Dick Keinaths mystery motor heads, so they were smaller then todays BBC heads

when 1963 Daytona rules allowed up to 427 cubes a new 3.65 crank was used

ALthough i have no proof of this except for the conversations with Keinath, the
Z11 group also used Dicks new 3.65 inch crank, so I guess that the original Z11 was 409 cubes.

Rick may be able to chime in here about the 427 inch rules

Smokeys mystery won the Daytona Saturday Qualifer before the 500 race.

Ray Fox played a major role during this time with Smokeys cars. Although he is not that recognized today, he was just as important during that time as Smokey, Goldsmith,Rutherford,etc

Fox is in the Motorsports Hall of fame but deserives to be in many more.

mark johnson

10-21-2009, 06:45 PM

Man, I've always loved the look of the red '63 in this particular photo. I've read about this particular car before and that it was built with a factory 327-300 HP 4-speed and driven halfway across the country with this stock drivetrain, but while looking like an all-out NASCAR racer of the day! Now.......I'm a drag racer through and through and never really was a fan of roundy-rounders but this car gets my blood flowing! Look at the wide black steel wheels and neat under-the-car exhaust. You know, it would be neat to build a modern-day, street legal version of this car with a modern-day Rat motor like a 427,454 or maybe even a 502 and paint it up to disguise and resemble a Mystery Motor! A person with some decent fabrication skills could even make up their own Cowl Plenum air cleaner. Now that would be cool!

Tom Kochtanek

10-21-2009, 07:09 PM

Mark:

I never had a reason to build a 1963 full size Chevy. Now I see your point! That would be one nice "tribute" car :) :) :).

I better stick to my current projects, see them through before I tackle another one :).

Cheers!
TomK

NASCAR FAN

10-21-2009, 07:14 PM

427 rule:

Bill France Sr. was concerned about the trend towards larger and larger production engines and the resulting escalation of speeds on his race tracks. One of his concerns was the tire technology of the time. It was no secret Ford was developing a "big engine" for 1963 competition.--- info on the car:

page 1: http://www.62ford.com/registry/images/starlift2.jpg

page 2: http://www.62ford.com/registry/images/starlift3.jpg

The car in the photos is the same car, except for the engine, that won the '62 NASCAR Atlanta race. Note the strange top which NASCAR "outlawed" after the race.

In my opinion this car was the main reason Bill France, along with other race sanctioning groups decided to place a limit on race car "stock" engine cubic inches. As everyone knows the cubic inch limit decided upon was 7 litres/427 cubic inches. Prior to the new 7 litre rule the race teams could race their Chevys, Fords, etc. with any size engine they wanted as long as that size (cubic inches) engine was an optional regular production engine available to the public. In 1959 the '59 Ford NASCAR race cars raced with a 430 cubic inch engine which was a factory optional engine in that car.
------
Rick

oil4kids

10-21-2009, 07:38 PM

FYI there was a Z33 1963 Mystery Motor car that i think was redone by Roger Sortino

CHEV601234

10-21-2009, 10:14 PM

that car was created out of thin air for publicity

oil4kids

10-21-2009, 10:26 PM

yes, but weren't most of the early nascar cars and engines made out of thin air?

http://superchevy.automotive.com/51759/sucp-0703-1963-chevy-biscayne-427/index.html

dq409

10-22-2009, 11:25 AM

The car in the photos is the same car, except for the engine, that won the '62 NASCAR Atlanta race. Note the strange top which NASCAR "outlawed" after the race.

------
Rick

The Starlite had a fiberglass top,,,

Tom Kochtanek

10-22-2009, 11:26 AM

That intake in the picture (dual quads) sure looks different than the one on Ebay :)

Hayden sure looks like he's having a ball of fun in the driver's seat!

Why is it no one is bidding the $499.99 and hanging it on their wall :). I'm guessing he the Reserve set pretty lofty...

TomK

wbc409

10-22-2009, 01:48 PM

Just wait another year, I'm sure we'll see a lot more of this stuff as the economy worsens. There are going to be people that are going to have to unload.

wbc409

10-22-2009, 01:56 PM

I also read the article on that Sortino car. If I remember correctly it was a prototype intake and never released to the public. The nascar guys got the new motor, and the drag guys got the W-based engine.

NASCAR FAN

10-22-2009, 04:25 PM

The Starlite had a fiberglass top,,,

dq409:

thanks for posting the photo of the '62 Starlift Ford. Did you notice the '62 Pontiac in the photo has # 22 on the top and #02 on the door? 22 was Fireball Roberts #. Banjo Matthews was driving the 22/02 car which finished in 2nd place behind Lorenzen. Matthews owned both the #22 and #02/22 cars.
----
Rick

Speed

10-22-2009, 07:43 PM

NASCAR FAN

10-22-2009, 08:43 PM

The starting line-up, 1st & 2nd rows according to NASCAR records was:

1. Fireball Roberts 2. Fred Lorenzen
3. Junior Johnson 4. Johnny Rutherford

A short, chopped up version, including the start of the of the race, is available on youtube
----
Rick

mark johnson

10-22-2009, 09:27 PM

Hey, would you call that a "bubbletop" Galaxie? I've always liked '62 Galaxies anyway and the addition of that Fastback roofline is really doin' it for me! I'll take that Galaxie Fastback with a 427 SOHC motor please!

oil4kids

10-23-2009, 04:40 PM

Rick

do you have the link to the youtube race?

Smokey where ever he is, is still pissed off at Johnny Rutherford, claimed his vision was the cause.

dq409

10-23-2009, 04:48 PM

Here is a link for the race results for the 62 Daytona,,

http://www.racing-reference.info/race?id=1962-05&series=W

Video,,,,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/floridamemory/3525628556/

I know I say a video out there advertised as the complete race. I'm looking for it now,,,dq

PS,, looking from the inside of the cars during that video makes me think these guys had bigger balls then the guys racing today!!!
Look at the lack of any safty gear!!!:eek:

dq409

10-23-2009, 05:24 PM

I did find this one from 1960! Check out all the old cars,,,and the wreak !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5PvUBx98jQ

And one for 63,,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUildcv0u0k

oil4kids

10-23-2009, 07:17 PM

Daytona Decision

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtghLKjqwsM

not the 500 but interesting

walkerheaders

10-23-2009, 08:55 PM

going by memory, and i'm almost always sorry i post my thoughts, i believe the movie RPM 10,000 has footage of the 63 Daytona race.

Speed

10-24-2009, 11:14 AM

i was there..'63

rstreet

10-25-2009, 07:49 AM

I have had this for some time as I was also down at Smokey's that day. Just thought I would share this and have no other comments about the article.
robert

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/thelilprofessor/scan0024.jpg

dq409

10-25-2009, 02:10 PM

I miss Fran,,,,

NASCAR FAN

10-25-2009, 02:48 PM

"the Mystery Motor and the Z-11 motor were identical with the exception of the 90-degree head bank angle."

Key word: "identical"

The Mk II engine block...as cast...has it's coolant inlet ports (where the water pump is bolted to the block) in a different location than the Mk I Z11 engine. The water pumps are not interchangable.

The lifter valley dams, front and back, of the Mk II are different, as cast, than the Mk I engine.

The Mk II block is not simply a W block with 90 degree head bank angle. It was a new casting.
----
Rick

oil4kids

10-25-2009, 03:35 PM

Rick, your statements are correct, the changes you state are the released Mystery Motor which included all changes above oil pan rails. The first mystery motor, which i have the patent drawings is more like a 409 with the old water pump placement and the lifer bores with unequal head ports and other non BBC qualities. I am not sure where the first was cast but all of the nascar stuff was cast in Saginaw plant since Mr Keinath had easy access to the plant where he worked before becoming the head of engineering.

Fran Preves statement on #4 above are really correct re the first mystery motor.RIP

By the way, the so called Mystery Motor at Don Garlits museum in the Smokey Yunick display area is just a 1966 BBC passenger motor

The semi hemi design was an idea lifted from the semi hemisperical head design in the corvair alum head